CNN story on Chinese pilots and their English skills

[Knold]

A few hours ago I watched CNN out of boredom. They ran a story about Chinese pilots and their sub-performance regarding the English language.

They aired an example from JFK where the pilots of an Air China flight completely failed to understand what ATC told them.
The clip ends with the controller saying “Nobody seems to speak English here today”.

Later they interviewed a Chinese pilot who just passed the “new” English exam. They had subtitles for that one.

They presented some statistics that there are some 8000 Chinese pilots of whom approximately 600 had passed the English test. No doubt some Chinese pilots fly solely domestic flights but anyway.

I’m sure that a lot of discussions can be made about what level of English that is actually required to operate internationally and if passing these tests will guarantee an appropriate knowledge. I’ll let someone else start those threads.

My question is this;
Isn’t it a requirement, and has been for many years, to take an ICAO test to get your RT license in English?
I know I had to.

Here is the link to the CNN story (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2007/06/28/vause.china.air.chinglish.cnn)

Regards
Knold

[gengis]

My feeling on this has always been that it'd end up as a good idea, sidetracked by big money.

English proficiency is an issue that affects not just the mainland Chinese carriers but many others from non-English speaking parts of the world. Imposing a minimum standard of English is without doubt a great idea with the best of intentions, but when large numbers of guys are seen to fail the standard with the expectant impact on the airline's ability to mount flight operations and consequent hit on their bottom line, you can bet that there's gonna be lots of fiddling of the test criteria/results. Especially with a major pilot shortage looming. I don't want to sound the pessimist, but that's the way i see this going.

Who knows, in 30 years if aviation ends up revolving around China or if by then they'd be producing lots of their own airplanes the way Airbus cut in on Boeing/MD in the 70s...... we might all have to take Chinese proficiency tests!!! ;)

Only time will tell. Until then, i say CPDLC might be the way to go - eliminates awkward accents, strange local lingo........

[Ropey Pilot]

Didn't hear the bloke speak so I can't comment on him specifically, but US television seem to subtitle a lot of english speakers that I can understand perfectly.

When I go to the states (I have a reasonably clear, non-regional english accent) I quite often have to repeat myself.

I have heard that when 'The Office' is broadcast in the US that the Gareth character is subtitled due to his Bristol accent (Don't know if it is true).

Regarding the original point though, I have heard some very loang, drawn out conversations to pass a simple instruction from ATC - and I am not always confident at the end that both parties have agreed on what is going to happen.:eek:

[PPRuNe Radar]

Would be nice if some American pilots flying in Europe spoke English ... or even listened out .... the air defence Jocks are so pissed off with being stood down :(


No slur on Americans ... it's a fact. No doubt Brits abroad do the same .... don't they ???

[Huck]

The clip. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob7mc8gIyrE)

Typical JFK ground controllers.

There should be a billboard beside the taxiways :"Relax. They treat everybody that way." Display it in all the major languages.

If a pilot's english is marginal it's insane to keep saying, "Have you been cleared to the ramp" in a monotone. Why not, "Confirm ramp tower will clear you" or something, with at least a little upward pitch at the end.....

[Roffa]

Speak to Air China and China Eastern and countless other non-native English speakers pretty much every day I'm at work.

Speak slowly, speak clearly, keep it simple and there are no problems. Can JFK not manage that? Obviously not :rolleyes:

[Fareastdriver]

There IS a requirement to pass an English compentcy test to get a Chinese ATPL. I know because I had to do it even though I am British. The exam was produced by an Australian company and the instructions they receive during the exam have an Oz accent which is not a good start. As with all operations in a foreign language if the clearances and patter are standard then everything works out. Once you depart from that then the problems start.
English is a compulsary subject at primary school level and the standard depends on the profiency of the teacher. There are a large number of foriegn native English speakers employed by colleges whose sole job is to correct these faults and the standard of those students who put the effort in is very good.
Most of their overseas flights are to East Asian countries where there are local or western controllers who can understand Chinglish. In the Hong Kong area Chinese pilots are no better or worse than Phillipinos/Japanese/Indonesian/Korean/Indian/Portugese and the dozens of South Americans.
There is a possible scenario where the pilots in question could have got there licences before the exam was in existence. The they would be checked at company level and presumably like anywhere else a 747 crew into JFK would be fairly senior and nobody in the company is going to argue with them.
I do not have any recent experiance operating in the States but when I did I remember that a clearance would be delivered at Mach 2 in one breath.
Chinese aviation gets knocked at every oppotunity but believe me over the last decade it has improved beyond recognition. There is a staggering amount of traffic in China. Most cities have a modern airfield and terminal and in some cases they are building a second terminal building before the paint is dry on the first one. Shenzhen/Boan, the one that I am most familiar with has two massive terminal buildings and are now going to put in a second parallel runway. This is from nothing fifteen years ago.

[nike]

Interestingly in the CNN story, they subtitled "RKO" instead of ICAO.

An example of how much we rely on context.

These journo's not knowing enough about aviation just listened to their tapes a few times and stuck something in that sounded right with no idea what it meant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaGO_WqS40M

[Load Toad]

I saw the CNN segment and for sure it seems on the face of it that the Chinese pilot could not understand the instruction.
I notice - flying in China regularly that the pilots never speak to the passengers. I assumed that the Chinese procedure was 'Pilots fly - cabin crew deal with passengers'. The cabin crew often make announcements perfectly clearly in (Mandarin) Chinese / English and sometimes in Cantonese as well.
One would think that if a cabin crew can be trained to understand & speak English then a pilot can be trained to speak & understand English.
But - I have worked in the past with a lot of non-native English speakers (in business) - they often complained that native English speakers used far too many slang terms or colloquialisms - or could even comunicate in a meetng with a slight visual gesture or a verbal inflection that would render the real meaning of a discussion or action point beyond the understanding of the non native English speakers.
If we are going to have more and more none native English speaking pilots - the lessons on communication have to be learnt by both sides.


There is no point at all raising your voice and getting frustrated if someone doesn't understand what you say - but you may have to refine how you chose to say it.

[kotakota]

At the risk of repeatimg myself , a copy of a recent thread and my 2 cents worth at the time - same story I reckon ?
----------------------------------
English / Sminglish

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Go easy guys , some of the ATC in the States is ridiculous , no idea of being proactive and slowing a little for foreigners and/or those unfamiliar with certain airports infrastructure / taxiways etc. Besides , how come Americans are the arbiters of how English should ,or should not , be spoken , ( 'Gee, you have such a cute accent' - mind you , I love to hear that from American ladies !!! )
I recall being at the infamous Chicago O'Hare , some years ago now while flying the classic 74 for a certain Big Airline , all 3 crew ( including F/E ) struggled to copy taxi-clearance ( having been geed -up by my FO saying 'ready guys ? ) asked it to be repeated , only to receive yet another garbled machine-gun delivery , asked this time for 'slowly' , only to be met with ' gee you Brits sure slow things up ' !!
Less than a month later one of our 74s had to abandon take-off at the same airfield near V1 with all the expected tire / gear overheat problems associated with a RTO at MTOW , when a local 73 landed on a cross runway and was so busy trying to copy / acknowledge its taxi clearance while still engaged in the stopping scenario that they made a runway incursion - the dreaded LHSO ( 'Cleared to land and hold short operation ).
The subsequent enquiry was not pretty reading , but 'what the heck , noone got killed ! '
It is a problem with non-English speaking crews speaking English only when required to do so by ATC , and spending the rest of the flight speaking their native language to each other / cabin crew / passengers .
When suddenly confronted with a pressure-situation they can falter. Barking at them , faster and faster, and losing your cool at the same time is not helping.
CRM must be applied by ATC all over the world .After all , us natural English-speaking aviators can thank our lucky stars that the chosen language of aviation is our mother-tongue.
Imagine what it must be like for a pilot whose second ( or even 3rd ) language is English trying to make sense on a scratchy HF when even us lucky ones are struggling and asking for relays etc?
I suspect some of the protesters on this thread have never tried flying into places like Jakarta , where the controllers are also struggling with a foreign language ie English .
Perhaps the ATC unit concerned should be asked :- ' Do you think you could have handled this any better ? '
Patience is a virtue and certain controllers need to learn it - in the Western world especially , SET AN EXAMPLE.

Take care up there
KK

[Ignition Override]

Here in the States, many of our operations are as if we are the (only) Aviation Center of the Universe.:cool:

Many here are probably of the opinion, well, why should we care?
ATC's job, from my experience, has always been to expedite traffic flow, but safely. If one's pride is bruised, then too bad.

Many Ppruners seem to forget, or never grasped the fundamental reality that in general, Productivity (with Results) is the American way, and that being overly methodical or academic is often viewed as a potential stumbling block.

Frontiers were settled only a few generations ago. Alaska is the last frontier (here).
Various regions of the US have slightly different cultures. Many controllers have the local accent (none on the West Coast) and attitude. To help understand the differences of ATC around New York, although this comparison is a wild exaggeration, watch part of Crocodile Dundee 2. It was on tonight. We went yesterday through La Guardia (LGA). Landed on rwy 22, took off on 13 with the 'Maspeth Climb' . On the East Coast you must be not only flexible, but 'fluid', as an FE once said.

[emratty]

That controller is a disgrace who should be hauled in front of his superiors to explain his actions that day. If he had spoken to the Air China pilot SLOWLY and in calm voice i am sure he would have not had the problems he ended up with. As pilots speaking to foreign ATC we often speak SLOWLY to make sure we are understood so why can't Kennedy ground do the same?:ugh:

[classjazz]

Some years agao, I was doing some training at a major UK training base and a Chinese crew were undergoing simulator training. Present on the flt deck was a "lady" Chinese interpreter who was theoretically only there to assist if the discussion became too technical. The crew were instructed to do an EFATO (Eng failure after take off) but continually ignored the brief. This became very exasperating for the sim crew and they looked at the "Olga Kreb" type interpreter for assistance.
She gabbled away for several minutes in high speed Chinese at the Chinese crew and then clouted the Captain around the head with the Flight Manual. She then turned to the sim crew and said "He understand now"

[Wiley]

I have to agree with emratty's comment and this onethey often complained that native English speakers used far too many slang terms or colloquialismsThe controllers at JFK are good, but their use of non standard English really sets them apart (and below, in professional terms), from the vast majority of truly excellent ATCOs at the busy UK airports, whose use of standard English and 'keeping it slow' make them a pleasure to deal with.

The only reason English is used as the international language of Aviation is that our grandfathers and fathers won WW2 and imposed it on the world in (I think it was) the Treaty of Paris, that set up ICAO.

As the influence of China grows in the world, watch the pressure grow on the 'old' world (us) to fit in with them. I suspect the problem might be mimimised, or at least lessened, in the not so distant future by greater use of datalink, even for taxying situations like in the the CNN article, which could have been short-circuited after the first to and fro is the ATCO had just reverted to standard phraseology.

In the shorter term, the US controllers need to take a serious look at themselves and maybe (MAYBE!!!!) drop the 'Noo Yawk' "yoo lookin' at me?" attitude about ten notches down the scale when dealing with foreign pilots who speak 'Aviation English' and who recognise precise, learned-by-rote phrases rather than slang and local Noo Yawk argot.

[sandblasted]

I have to agree that the controller could have helped those guys out, ground control show very little patience and can be deliberately rude at times even to native English speakers,anyway can't fight the JFK system but I do feel the controller would benefit from a course in anger management! :ok:

[J.O.]

While I agree with the requirement for English proficiency for all "international" pilots, I also believe that there should be testing for all English speakers to confirm their understanding of standard phraseology. Sadly, if this were enacted, I suspect many North American controllers and pilots would struggle to pass the test, with the US controllers being the worst performers by far.

[Check 6]

JFK ground control tape (http://home.online.no/~chainly/JFKGround.mp3)for your listening enjoyment. Youse guys have a problem with dis? You talkin' to me? ;)

[Knold]

Sure, the controller could have spoken slower and maybe he wouldn’t have had to get upset either. However at the same time you all know the frustration you yourselves feel when you desperately want to get your own transmission through but some stumbling guy like this one is taking up all the space and time.

I’m sure that the controller feels this too. He’s got plenty more movements to track than just you and me so I can fully understand his feelings when something like this happens.

Furthermore I think you Britons for some reason get more upset by an American that doesn’t speak British than a Spanish or French that doesn’t speak English.

You might miss one or two messages in the US but I’m convinced that more confusion and misunderstandings are created within French or Spanish airspace when most of the time they don’t speak English at all.
The US controllers are speaking in the clearest and most direct way they know how, it might not be “RKO” language but that infraction of standards is one of the smaller ones when comparing with other parts of the world.

What I react to though is this poor guy who can’t form anything resembling a complete sentence and he’s supposedly just passed the exam.
When you combine this with the Chinese way of never wanting to be wrong, I.e. never challenging a question, you’ve got a nasty recipe.

Don’t bash the controller for this incident. It was caused quite simply because the Chinese pilots English was inadequate. In fact you might say that he doesn’t speak the language at all, he has a phrasebook where some of the pages are more worn than others.

[Huck]

She gabbled away for several minutes in high speed Chinese at the Chinese crew and then clouted the Captain around the head with the Flight Manual. She then turned to the sim crew and said "He understand now"

I didn't know my wife worked in a simulator.....

[flightleader]

If you listen carefully,the Air China pilots had twice mention wrong airline names.Once he said Xiamen 981 and another time said Goangdong 981.These are local airlines.My guess is both of these pilots join Air China not too long ago.

[Airbubba]

Furthermore I think you Britons for some reason get more upset by an American that doesn’t speak British than a Spanish or French that doesn’t speak English.


Don't worry, they'll get over it, they always have...:)

We Americans are more concerned about what's around the layover hotel and where's a good place to buy a boat than them 'R/T procedures'.

"American 34 Heavy, Narita Tower, Line Up and Wait Runway 34 Left."

"Thirty-four, on the hole"

[Wiley]

It might sound terribly cool, Bubba, and some of the recent American arrivals in this neck of the woods use similar "terminology", which might be OK in a monocultural/monolingual environment. However, even if you ignore the ATC implications, it's a recipe for confusion, even disaster in an airline with thirty+ nationalities among its pilots.

[jshg]

Nowhere in the english-speaking aviation world (or even in the plain english-speaking world) does "in the hole" have any meaning, so the next reply outside the USA would be: "Say again?"
In my experience of the USA (E. & W. coast) much of the ATC chatter is generated by locals trying to sound slick, and everyone else trying to understand them. Not clever in an international environment, and best reserved for national frequencies.

[ibelieveicanfly]

1-if the controller is arrogant like this unable to handle stress he is in the wrong job: speak slowly,clearly with standard phraseo and it will be ok;we are not all from new-york city.
2-with the coming EASA every pilot will have to pass an english test(PPL also if I am correct): level1(very bad)-to level6(native language).if you pass level 6 it is valid for good,level 4 (valid 3 years)will be required(about first certificate of english) for commercial pilots AND ATC controllers.But how will be taken seriously this test as aviation grews up and coming short of pilots?that's the question

[Molokai]

Sad Yanks run slipshod over everybody. Small wonder we are hated all over the world. In my flights to the mainland, I have come across zillions of instances whereby foreign crew with hesitant English were bullied, hollered at and ridiculed by the dregs of our land who do not understand ICAO phraseology or standard practices. Even in beloved Aloha land on HNL tower we have one or two of these big and thick headed miscreants.

[Fright Level]

much of the ATC chatter is generated by locals trying to sound slick

ATC - Speedbird 123, contact Denver Centre on 125 point zero.
BAW123 - Denver Centre, 125 point zero, good day

ATC - States Air 124, contact Denver Center on 125 point zero.
SA124 - Twenny Five Nuttin, you got it.

As George Bernard Shaw said, we're two countries separated by a common language, shame many US pilots don't learn aviation English and stick to discipline on the RT. It's a proven cause of accidents and incidents.

Now, any Air France pilots here .....

[hikoushi]

Even in beloved Aloha land on HNL tower we have one or two of these big and thick headed miscreants.

True, but HNL is waaaaaay better than anywhere else in this country I can think of; having Japanese flight schools operating GA out of the primary airport in their Class B airspace has probably desensitized them to the Englasian language group a bit more than the average mainland ATC goon.

[Ignition Override]

Some of the controllers in New York might feel that New York is the center of the world, if not the universe.

Years ago as an FO I once experimented (only one time) and said on the radio "Roger, wilco" and the Captain turned and said something like "What? Roger wilco?" with a smirk.

[brian.crissie]

probably not 100% topic related:

I remember listening to the A380 making its way to JFK several months ago.

Lufthansa kept correcting the tower controller callsign from "heavy" to "super"

tower kept repeating "super" back in such a condescending tone to the Lufthansa crew...made me cringe, the effort from both sides to outdo eachother.

(someone else here must have heard that exchange)

[filejw]

BC, No but Super is correct as per the FAA wake turbulence policy.:rolleyes:

[bomarc]

Super is quite right for the A380...but with that thinking I should be superman and not fat man, right? ;-)

I agree with Wiley's Post (forgive the pun...I hope someone gets it though!)

I recall an ALPA safety conference in Washington DC about 10 years ago.

ATC from Narita tower begged all US pilots to use correct RT phrases.
He used the example of "fire engine". To an american this is the fire truck, CFR equipment, the red thing with hoses (though some places it is not red and it is white or chartreuse)...his controllers couldn't understand if the pilot was reporting: an engine fire, or he was requesting a fire engine.


When I first started flying for a major airline on the east coast (I believe the same airline as Mr. Wiley) it was painful to hear the controllers speak. LGA ground had the most brooklyn of brooklyn accents.


My peers in boston hated the way I spoke and I didn't have a clue to what they were saying half the time. (I am from the wild west of the US).

I recall one bostonian in ground school confusing the whole class as he requested, over and over without getting the message through: I need new chawts....new chawts....

the instructor kept saying, what are you talking about?

I finally translated: he is requesting a new CHART, as in MAP (not to be confused with manifold absolute pressure, or missed approach point).

The bostonian then started screaming that all of us didn't know how to speak English and that We were wrong about the letter "R".

I hope we can all be a little more precise. Also with numbers: 4 is FOWER for a reason. 5 is FIFE for a reason and NINER IS NINER cuz its cool as hell.

You all be careful out there.
and
No English, no tiki!

[fractional]

I know ICAO is like the UN general assembly...:eek:, but please follow ICAO standard English phraseology ALWAYS, even if English isnt your mother-toungue, and as long as you have international traffic in your area of operation.
It's terrible to have Americans(:confused:), Russians, Greeks, Spanish (including Central/South America), French, Germans, Brazilians (in Brazilian Portuguese) and so on (many more other diverse countries across the worl) speaking their own native languages when other pilots (of different nationalities) are in the area understanding "JUST NOTHING" of what's going on around them.
Is this good for SAFETY?:ugh: Aren't we global now?:rolleyes:

[lotman1000]

controllers couldn't understand if the pilot was reporting: an engine fire, or he was requesting a fire engine.

Amounts to the same thing?



OK, I know, hat, coat, umbrella......

[4PW's]

Heard the tape before. Disgraceful behaviour. No other way to describe it.

And the March 2008 introduction of the ICAO-mandated English Language Proficiency Certificate as a legal document, without which one is unable to fly, has been met with derision by whom?

Yes, the good ol' boys of the USA.

Now I'm no Yank basher. Yes, it's true they can't play rugby (or cricket) any better than they can surf, with the exception of perhaps one or two exceptionally talented individuals. But that doesn't make them dumb-assed.

This incident, on the other hand, and the refusal of some to acknowledge the hand played by the heroes of New Yawk's Ground guy (loser!) is cause for considerable dismay.

What is not so surprising is the refusal of the FAA to acknowledge the ICAO designed and required ELPC as a basis for reducing miscommunications between crews and/or ATC.

The Yanks will not adhere to it. They won't test their own crews. Can you believe that? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Even CNN cannot get it right.

"Go fig-uh."

[Wiley]

That gawddamned (goddamned?) Chuck Yeager has a lot to answer for (or should that be 'ta'aswrfer'?), as two, and it may be three generations of American pilots have tried to emulate his laid back style whenever they get a microphone to their lips.

Someone commented that it wasn't good enough for foreign pilots to have learned a set of phrases. That shows a total lack of understanding (or I expect exposure) of what's happening in aviation the very big world beyond the borders of the US of A. The whole point of standard R/T phraseology is just that - to allow pilots with a less than perfect command of the language to cope by knowing and understanding a set of standard phrases. (Their accents might sometimes be thick, but from what I've seen, (or heard), the Chinese aviation English schools drum standard phraseology into their students to the point where most of them know the standard calls better than most native English speaking pilots.)

It's not just a great advantage for foreign language speakers, but for native English speakers as well when transmission/reception is poor, or a call is blocked by another transmission and some of the controller's words might be missed. If it's a standard phrase that the controller is using, you can afford to miss a word or two because you will read back the necessary parts of the call using the correct, standard phraseology yourself and if you got it wrong, the controller will pick up the error.

Maybe someone with friends at CNN might suggest they do another piece on the standard of US controllers' (and pilots'?) English?)

[Fundi-Ya-Ndege]

Seem to remember that when I did my FAA CPL the RT licence was applied for and arrived with the Student Pilot Cert without any requirement for any sort of test....
But you have to sympathise with these guys for whom English is very far from being their first language and then going to JFK where I sometimes wonder what language they are speaking as it sometimes sounds like something other than English ( sometimes not of this world ) :}

[Check 6]

JFK Ground & Clearance Live (http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kjfk_del_gnd.m3u)

[Malcolm G O Payne]

From March next year it wil be mandatory for all new pilots and controllers to pass examinations in Aviation English to ICAO Level 4. This is on an international basis.

[Malcolm G O Payne]

Silberfuchs. Unfortnately, there is a French Law that requires controllers to speak French to French aircraft where possible.

[FlexibleResponse]

Silberfuchs
English is indeed the approved language of global aviation (France take note!)....but it is only effective when combined with ICAO Standard Phaseology.
In that respect, IMHO, the yanks shouldnt be throwing stones in such a small glasshouse.

The best comment so far!

[Airbubba]

Well, the Brits have a few nonstandard local ATC phrases that are puzzling when you first hear them in a foreign accent like "Continue on the glide..."

For more on contemporary American R/T procedures see:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076729/

[Willie Everlearn]

"Air China 5 - 81, have you been cleared to the ramp?"

I've read many posts in this thread suggesting adherence to ICAO standard radio phraseology was not observed and should have been used. :confused:

What standard phraseology did this controller fail to observe, use, or comply with in asking a simple question of this crew and why did this crew respond, "cleared to the gate", when they were certainly NOT cleared to any gate, let alone ramp.

What am I missing here??? :ugh:

[Huck]

I was a wet-behind-the-ears first officer for a regional airline when we picked up some slots into JFK.

My first trip in there, I called ground control when ready to leave the ramp.

He said (and I swear it's the guy on the Air China clip), "Acey, follow that Springbok."

I thought I hadn't heard right. "Say again please, Acey 555."

"FOLLOW THE SPRINGBOK. MOVE IT NOW."

"Sir, I'm from Alabama, and I don't know what a Springbok is."

"YOU SEE THAT BIG PLANE IN FRONT OF YOU? FOLLOW IT!"

[maui]

Huck

I hear you. This from US controller in respose to a taxi request.

Stacatto "xxxxxx eight o five delta foxtrot six eighteen seven" that was the entire transmission. Poor guy on my right had absolutely no idea what it was or meant.

With this sort of sh*t and the agressive temprament of some of the "saviours of the world" is it any wonder some of those using English as a supplementary language, have problems?

For those still scratching their heads as to the translation of that transmission.
"xxxxxx eight zero five taxi via delta and foxtrot, abeam gate six call tower one one eight decimal seven"

Maui

[Sal-e]

If it's a written exam, it'll be a total waste of time. It should be an Oral/Aural since most of the English that directly affects safety will be communicated that way.

[Willit Run]

Nigel,
Re-direct strumble flight planed route

[ibelieveicanfly]

not only new pilots,all pilots

[Dan Winterland]

Calling Air China China Airlines should go down well. China Airlines are the national carrier of Taiwan - the enemy!

IMHO, if everyone used standard ICAO Doc 4444 teminology, there would be less problems. The problem is that the world's largest speaking nation doesn't. There has been a thread on this before - something like 'Why don't Chinese piots speak English?' I have to add, why don't the Americans?

[low n' slow]

Indeed a very rewarding thread.
First time I was in the US (time building on light twins) I was puzzled by the "taxi into position and hold" phrase. Which position?

"The whole point of standard R/T phraseology is just that - to allow pilots with a less than perfect command of the language to cope by knowing and understanding a set of standard phrases."

I consider myself to be fluent in english and I still get confused. Especially when the norwegians call and say "inbound ZOL" for example. Is that direct?
Standard phrases are there to avoid confusion. We don't use the word take-off unless a clearance to take-off has been issued. Up to that point it's departure.

We need pilots in good command of the language and that adhere to standard phrases. Any other combination is a compromise that affects safety.

/LnS

[Desert Nomad]

This e-mail been doing the rounds of a cbin crew announcement on China Southern. At least they make the effort in the cabin with the english:

Pre-takeoff announcement on a China Southern Airlines flight


This is said to be a true account of what was heard on a recent flight
from Shenzhen to Qingdao:

" Good afternoon, Ladies and the German. This is your cheap purser Wang
Lui speaking. On behalf of China Sudden Airlines, I would like to
welcome you on board our Bowling 737 from Shenzhen to Qingdao. Members
of my crew speak Chinese and other languages that you do not know. It
is a great pressure serving you to-die. Should you need any resistance
during the fright, peace do pest the call button. I and my gals are
available to make you feel comfortable. Meanwhile, the airkwaft is
going to fry. Peace sit upright and keep you belt tightly fastened
until dinner is served at five dirty p.m. Hope you would enjoy your
fright with us. Funk kill ! "

[Fareastdriver]

Nice one, Desert Nomad. Your understanding of Chinglish is far better than mine. I've been trundling around China for ten years and I never fully understood the English passenger briefing.

[triadic]

Most of us that have had experience with ICAO and the speed at which they process change believe that the normal time to process a change is around seven (7) years!

About a decade ago, there was an ATC conference in Europe where many of the issues discussed on this thread came up. One rep from Europe asked why the FAA controllers did not use the ICAO standard phrases and what would be required to get them to change...?

The response from the FAA rep said it all.... "it would be easier to change ICAO" !

"Air China 5 - 81, have you been cleared to the ramp?"

The custom (for good reason) in many countries is to only use the word "cleared" when you have in fact been cleared to do something, and it is never, never used at any other time, and certainly not in a question that is open to interpretation, expecially if some of it is blocked out! That is only asking for trouble when it is a non standard phrase and you are communicating with pilots that do not have English as a first language.

An established culture is very difficult to change, and processing such change may take many years and much effort. But there has to be a will to do it.

Our American friends have come in for a bashing in this thread (and some of it deserved), but it is no different to any other English speaking country that might use slang from time to time... they just use it a lot and don't seem to think about the recipient.

[JJflyer]

Yeh 34 in the hole. Reminds me of a large US company flying away in Europe the other night.

ATC: AAsomething, Recycle, squawk 7330 and Ident

AAsomething: 7330 with a Flash.

[ChePety]

Good points on standard R/T phraseology. My experience is, that US controllers are only using standard ICAO as long as everything goes perfect. As soon as something hits the fan though, they will try to "negotiate" it with you. It works if your English is spotless, however maybe, just maybe it should be the other way around.

At the same time, in order to redeem the Chinese pilot everyone seems to forget, that he COMPLETELY screwed up the first two calls. I know aviation is all about expecting certain phases of flight (that's what i teach my students), but ignoring the words Mike-Alpha and substituting it with November... Well... I don't know. Kind of hard to mix up. This could have added to the, already overloaded, controllers frustration. Besides this really was a "No-Danger-But-Oh-So-Annoying" situation. The plane is standing on the ground, blocking everyone's way, and the pilot doesn't understand the question (not so sure, had he been asked to "confirm cleared to the gate" the answer would not have been "logel to tha gate confilm" which makes about as much sense as the whole conversation in the first place).

As i said in the first part, i think US ATC is a nightmare even for born Americans who get in touch with, say SOCAL Approach the first time (although New Yorkers seem less friendly for some reason {SHOCKING!!!}), and rarely use standard phraseology ("Traffic two o'clock, three miles Cessna 172 indicating 6500" "Roger, got'em on the fish-finder").
However things should be improving on both sides. One of the solutions would be to let mainland chinese train in the US. If you can handle this, you can handle anything.

Cheers

[The Sandman]

Hey Radar:

Quote:
Would be nice if some American pilots flying in Europe spoke English ... or even listened out .... the air defence Jocks are so pissed off with being stood down

No slur on Americans ...
- unquote

No slur on Americans? If not, it's one of the most pathetically xenophobic attempts at humour I've had the pleasure to snicker at here on the Prune. Radar - get a life... Not to mention a slightly wider world perspective. You'd make the BNP proud.:rolleyes:

[flyboyike]

Imagine what it must be like for a pilot whose second ( or even 3rd ) language is English trying to make sense on a scratchy HF when even us lucky ones are struggling and asking for relays etc?


I don't have to imagine it. English is my fourth language and yet, miraculously, I do fine at JFK. It's a matter of putting in the effort and not thinking that narrow eyes and a name like Ming Chung Hwang entitles you to special treatment.

[flyboyike]

I was a wet-behind-the-ears first officer for a regional airline when we picked up some slots into JFK.

My first trip in there, I called ground control when ready to leave the ramp.

He said (and I swear it's the guy on the Air China clip), "Acey, follow that Springbok."

I thought I hadn't heard right. "Say again please, Acey 555."

"FOLLOW THE SPRINGBOK. MOVE IT NOW."

"Sir, I'm from Alabama, and I don't know what a Springbok is."

"YOU SEE THAT BIG PLANE IN FRONT OF YOU? FOLLOW IT!"


You should've told him, being from Alabama, you don't even know what Northwest is, much less Sud Afrikaanse Lugdiens.

[gengis]

Look, can we agree on a couple of things?

1) the Chinese guys gotta improve on the level of their english comprehension;

2) the native english speaking ATC can try a lot harder to use standard R/T phraseology??? In this case, "Air China niner-eight-one, CONFIRM you are cleared to the gate?"

<nb, the official definition of CONFIRM: I request verification of: (clearance, instruction, action,information).>

No guarantee that it would have got the guy to understand, but without doubt it would have increased the chances of him understanding the controller more than the babbling that subsequently occured?

[triadic]

"cleared"

You are asking for big trouble if you use this word in other than an instruction or clearance in which you are providing a "clearance" .. ie "clear to land", "clear for take-off", "clear to taxi" etc...

Using it in any other context is just bad practice in that in increases the chance of having it misunderstood or jammed out and the pilot in fact believing he/she was in fact "cleared" when that was not the case or intention.

In this situation, I ask, why was the pilot asked such a question in the first place...? Don't the controllers co-ord their instructions/clearances issued. If there is doubt as to what clearance has been issued, the clearance should have been cancelled and/or re-issued.

In such a situation, then perhaps "confirm your (taxi) clearance" (with no other words) might have been more appropriate.

Keep it simple and don't create confusion by using too many words or words that may have another meaning - ICAO standard phrases is the way to go if in any doubt.

[gengis]

in many US airports, unfortunately Ramp controls the gate movements in/out & Ground is in charge of the rest of the stuff. They don't co-ordinate. JFK is one of these places. LAX/ORD/IAD/DFW are others.

But yes, it would be nice if they talked.

[bomarc]

It would be nice if real ATC was in charge of all movements on the airport. RAMP control is just a cheap ass way of doing it.

when a plane crashes due to mis communications...actually again...remember the aero argentine? well, just shake your head boys and girls and be careful for your own flight.

[400Rulz]

For several months now, the company I work for has been transiting Chinese airspace. ATC's standard of english is outstanding, and they only issue instructions in sets of three (ICAO standard). And, by and large, they speak slowly enough to be understood. The same cannot be said by the controllers at LAX, who often use colloquialisms and speak as if it is their last breath on this earth! I once heard a Southwest skipper remark "I can't hear that fast, can you repeat with a southern drawl?" I nearly pissed my pants.
On the other hand, I have heard other Asian carriers working into my home port repeatedly request clarification of a basic clearance. To the extent that the controller simply aquiesced to their readback because the repeated requests for clarification were jamming the airwaves.
Use of standard phraseology should be mandatory. Unfortunately, the US seems to think it is the regulatory body, when it is not. Just as it is not their job to be the world's policemen.......:ugh::E

[Wiley]

It'd be even better if they used datalink for as many controller to aircraft communications as possible.

About the only drawback to it is the lack of situational awareness that results for the pilot (in relation to other traffic around him).

But for airways/departure clearances etc, the adoption of system should be made **** mandatory - in all major airports, as soon as possible.

[MD11Engineer]

Silberfuchs:
English is indeed the approved language of global aviation (France take note!)....but it is only effective when combined with ICAO Standard Phaseology.
Just a small correction: Actually there exist several ICAO approved languages of aviation:
English, French, Spanish, Russian, Arabic and Mandarin Chinese.
This was the result of the 1944 Chicago Convention.
English just has become the ligua franca of aviation.
While all of the listed languages are legal, I agree that there should be an international standard.
Though not being flight crew (I work on the ground, keeping the planes airworthy), I have been riding jump seat often enough in the past to understand how upsetting it is to know that there is somebody somewhere around, talking to ATC and you can not figure out what he intends to do because you don't understand him.
Rgds,
Jan

[Sqwak7700]

First of all, I agree, the NY controllers are not the most "ICAO standard" controllers that there are, but then again, they are a product of the system.

You go to any other overburdened airport arround the world and I can guarantee you that you will see the same. Try going to Mumbay during the late night push and you would be lucky if you get a word in. Just another ATC unit making do with what they got. Understaffing with inappropriate levels of traffic for which the system was not designed. This leads to some cutting corners every now and then. Just because it doesn't happen in X Airport, which is 234th busiest airport in the world does not mean it won't happen in one in the top 50.

Even so, I agree, the NY controllers can be a pain in the ass sometimes. But everyone has had a bad day, and I've heard pilots get pretty ignorant and arrogant as well.

Communication is a complex process. as long as you understand each other, who cares if it is "standard phraseology". We put up with multiple accents on the frequency, which are much harder to understand than coloquilisms. How come all you anal-retentive guys don't push for correct pronunciation too?

You all need to relax and understand that people are gonna have a tough time communicating no matter what language they use.

[planeenglish]

Hello All,
Regarding the new standards, the language of the station on the ground CAN be used but English must be readily available for pilots (at least level 4 proficiency) needing it.
I quote from Doc 9835, 2.5 Language To Be Used
2.5.1 In Annex 10, it is stipulated that radiotelephony communications shall be made available when pilots are unable to use the language of the station on the ground. The upgrading of provisions governing the use of language for radiotelephony communications from a Recommendation to a Standard emphasizes the important link between communications and safety...As an example, Spanish is spoken as the national language in States from Mexico, through Central America and throughout much of South America. For International flights in such States, Spanish or English can be used, but English must be made available. International pilots flying in this airspace may use either English or Spanish....
Point 2.4 also explains the requirements of the Use of Plain Language and how it shall be used. If anyone is interested I'll post that subpart as well.
Best to all,
PE