Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer Shortage

[BAe146s make me cry]

Attn: Engineers, Techs, Mechs & Accountable/Maintenance
Managers in the MRO industry

Is it just me or is the shortage of LAE's getting worse?
I've had 5 phone calls in the past few days from different
agencies asking for my availability to work elsewhere
with starting dates for next week...

I haven't got any cover on the most desireable types
ie: B737NG/A320/B777 but a couple of agencies did
stipulate that an ICAO basic AML + TR & Experience
are now being accepted in lieu of EASA Part 66 with
certain Middle Eastern/Far Eastern MROs.

Can anyone comment?

BAe146???:{:{:{

[BAe146s make me cry]

It would appear that one UK agency is resorting to recruiting in Hungary for positions in the UK - see link below...

http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/employer.asp?employerid=982&vacID=77019

This is despite the Hungarian CAA still not being on the list of EASA NAAs
that mutually accept eachother's Part 66 AMLs - see link below...

http://www.easa.eu.int/doc/QS/AMO%20certification%20authorisations%20based%20on%20JAR%2066 %20licences-v2.pdf

I know a few LAEs that really are benefitting financially out there
due to these shortages (good for them) but is this not a symptom of absolutely crap planning & organisation with negative long term effects?

BAe146????? :{:{

[ericferret]

The number of licensed engineers heading towards retirement is escalating.
Years ago a friend described our operation as being


"an old folks home with helicopters"

Well I've now become one of the old folks and what is scary is that there are no young engineers to make similar rude comments.

I estimate the average age where I work to be over 50.

[Ned Coates]

S'funny, but as the likes of British Airways, (an industry driver), attempts to obliterate the LAE at every opportunity, they drive away guys in position or those that want to start. All to drive down their own costs. The new religion is the worship of money, profit and budgets. Now and not tomorrow. Greed.

The ultimate result of this pseudo religion is people working for peanuts like in the good ol' USA. I've heard guys and girls there often have second jobs to keep their heads above water financially.

The job IMHO just isn't worth the hassle anymore of debilitating, life shortening shifts, with huge resonsibilities. Mostly played down by managers until something awful happens. Self studying whilst on crap shifts. Far better to get an MBA and short cut into a desk. One can then sit there bemoaning the fact that there aren't enough maintenance engineers and screw those that are left under the guise of 'Change'.

There is no way on this Gods earth that I would allow any of my offspring into an aviation engineering job.:ok:

[NutLoose]

A lot of it has to do with the change over the the EASA licence....... I know of at least 5 people that have simply walked away from the job as they are fed up of being served cr*p for poor wages, and that is from an area about 100 meters square........... so times that by a country and you can understand the shortage...........

One of the basic reasons I was given was "I have trained for X years to get this licence, I have worked on xyz for 20 years plus and now they say my licence coverage is not sufficent to carry on doing the same job without spending a fortune on additional training".......... walk away time....... and they do in droves..

That and the aging population problem...... perhaps it will drive wages up to a realistic figure............. myself? well It would not be a lie when I say I am looking round too, and out of this country as the Labour Party has screwed that up right and proper......

[The Original Jetpipe]

Its not just in the UK!!!

The low wages and *&^%$ conditions are being felt arround the world!!

TOJP

[BAe146s make me cry]

The demand for certifying as well as non-certifying
staff in Exeter has always been there, even more so now
since we acquired another airline.. In short, not very many
Engineers or Pilots chose to stay with the company, due in
part to the low renumeration / relocation amongst other things.

End result - remaining LAE's typically cover 2-4 A/C
on base maintenance and regularly get sent to
the thinly manned line stations to cover Check A's or
AOG/Snags.

The company Part 145 Approvals are :.
under threat.

In addition, the latest batch of Bristol / AST people are
not that technically impressive (at least the ones I work with).
They have learnt the minimum to scrape the exams/essays -
this is not enough to keep A/C airworthy - it becomes painfully
obvious when troubleshooting. Easy to xfer to ADD though?

In closing, the UK pool of trained, experienced, actually capable
Aircraft Maintenance Engineers (Licensed/Unlicensed) is getting shallower
by the week - the UKCAA refuses to intervene in 'personnel issues' &
the international example that used to be BA seems to be screwing
over the few remaining good engineers with the AMS scheme.

The sad thing is, I'm not expecting any change soon.

BAe146?? And hands-off industry leaders?? :{:{:{

[BAe146s make me cry]

Ok, not sorry for starting the thread, I'm sorry for hijacking...

As well as the shortage of LAE's, are there a lot of vacancies
requesting full B1/B2 cover on specific aircraft types or what?

We're all aware of how certain JAA/EASA NAA's awarded their
'approved personnel' JAR/EASA Pt 66 AMLs - some full B1 including
full B2. Maybe these personnel from these NAA's are now unfairly
prefered (Actual trade capabilities aside for a moment) because
of those actions, who knows?

Apart from some very talented and capable individuals out there
that have truly earnt and can identify themselves as full B1/B2, is there now not a pressure placed upon the rest of us to obtain further qualification simply to remain equivalent?

It is an acheivement none the less to academically earn B1/B2
status but experience would suggest that for example, all a B2 would
have to do to earn B1 practical experience would be too 'look over the shoulder of a B1 carrying out a B1 task' and collect the specific AMM reference. This is the equivalent of what occurs today for a B1 to obtain the 'avionic/electrical practical' element to qualify for basic B1 AML issue.
Essential practical skillsets are not being transferred correctly OR even proven.

For any manager totally unaware of actual events at shop floor level,
all this takes place today. Directly or indirectly you appear to endorse it.
Either way, the high standards of aircraft maintenance are being eroded.
Especially here in the UK, once percieved as the best.

How can any industry attract the right talent when it appears to
not address in full the concerns of those presently working harder
then ever within it?

Bae146??? :{:{:{

[Blacksheep]

We're all aware of how certain JAA/EASA NAA's awarded their
'approved personnel' JAR/EASA Pt 66 AMLs - some full B1 including
full B2. Maybe these personnel from these NAA's are now unfairly
prefered (Actual trade capabilities aside for a moment) because
of those actions, who knows?I don't think so. A major problem with the EASA licence is its lack of portability. In having a "deeply meaningful and constructive discussion" with our local (UKCAA seconded) Regional Manager / Surveyor, he won't accept any licence - including EASA Part 66 Licences - for conversion except UK or Germany issued Part 66 B1/B2s. Rightly so in my opinion.

So we can't recruit anyone other than Brits or Germans to fill positions within our EASA Part 145 Approved Maintenance Organization. We are developing locals, but not fast enopugh to meet maintenance demand. So we are missing out on ripe business opportunities. Hang on in there chaps, LAES will eventually be in a similar position as pilotsin demanding and getting suitable salaries.

[BAe146s make me cry]

Blacksheep

That same UKCAA seconded regional manager/Surveyor perhaps
won't mind commenting on conversions already carried out by
the SRG of 20+ British Airways Engineering Line Station staff
that previously held FAR Part 65 A&P holders with BA issued
approvals to restricted B1.1's then??

The fact that when other EASA NAA's where approached to
convert the staff involved, they were only offered Cat A.1's.
Did BA deem this as insufficient?

Perhaps an insight will explain why the ALAE(1981) are currently
pursuing a sample de-identified 'conversion report' under the
Freedom of Information Act, just to see the actual mechanics
of the converson process, identify what is acceptable and what is unacceptable.

http://www.alae.org.uk/site1/view_content.php?page=96

There has to be some great reason for the the new and elaborate construction of the UKCAA ELGD 2007 Section B
which has not made anything more transparent or importantly,
level. BA needed Line Station 'Approved Staff' foreign nationals
to be converted to Part 66 B1.1 before September 2006. If they
qualified somehow suddenly late last year, why they were not
converted before?? (Circa 2001) It remains a mystery.

Strings were pulled, AMLs issued. The UKCAA have proven they are
no different to any other NAA that will interpret regulations to what
suits for the right $$$$ As Ned says, its all about $$$$ really.


BAe146??:{:{

[quichemech]

146,

With regard to the shortage, your lot in Exeter had a shortage when I was contracting there 15 years ago and had a habit of paying less than agricultural wages. Nothing has obviously been learned since then if your problem still persists.

The problem is not going to go away but it is also not helped by the industry not helping people to get on the ladder by offering work experience places, how many peole have been to collegue and have ended up walking away after 2 or 3 years because they can't get a placement?

[BAe146s make me cry]

Quichemech

Totally in agreement - You were there 15 years ago?
We've grown quite a bit in that time, more a/c, bigger facility etc..
Decide for yourself and see what incentive there is now...

http://www.nextgenerationairline.com/pdf/eng_pay_structure2.pdf

The turnover of staff I have witnessed at this facility in the time
I have been employed there beggars belief. There is nil focus on staff retention. Concerns have been raised with the UKCAA, concerns have been monitored (seemingly ignored) by the UKCAA.

As far as retaining the training staff, a key B2 instuctor handed his
notice in a few days ago. We effectively have no full time avionic instructors now.

This is not indicative of a healthy UKCAA/EASA Part 145 Maintenance Facility.

Bae146??? :{:{:{

[Flylikeaturkey]

ave age at your work shows good experience, young guys have and always will move around for their o.e. and are not tied down with kids etc not because the $$ is not enough. I would however like to know how profitable an airline can remain when paying rcm's 35 quid an hour, what are the licenced guys on?

[boshank]

Very interesting debate. Having just finished my academic B1 training i am finding it very difficult to get a job now, like it has already been mentioned They are only advertising for full B1 and B2 engineers with type ratings and experience. How is it possible to get this experience if no one is willing to give u a chance?

Fao BA146 i agree wth the standard of students the college is sending out is generally very poor, I believe i have the level of technical knowledge i need to be a trainee B1 engineer. However if i hadnt have had the background in aircraft maintance ( my experience is very limited though) i would be reluctant to take anybody on as the college has taught us just to pass exams.

[NutLoose]

You tried Exeter? they are always advertising........... also try looking on

the likes of

http://www.matchtech.com/job/134143/

the experience might screw you though

or

http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/

[Orangputi]

Interesting Thread,

I left the industry last year I was engineer over twenty years experience with multiple ratings. The lack of respect for such a highly skilled job which requires five times the cognition of our pilot brothers for a quarter of the salary, was another factor. I am still kind of involved as I am a loss adjuster in London, but to quite honest happy to be out.

I hope that one day it will change for the sake of so many good guys still in the industry who produce amazing results against all the odds (i.e poor management, less than worthy pilots, and excessive working hours due to the overall shortage in the first place!).

:ugh:

[chopsuwe]

Guess I might as well ask here... as I have been looking at becoming an avionics technician.

It looks like some of the pay rates here in NZ are ridiculous. One company has offered me a job, paying the same rate as when I graduated with a certificate in electronics 9 years ago. Another company is offering the same rate as I was on 3 years ago. This is $7000 and a company car short of what I can make comissioning comercial air conditioning systems.

Is there really a shortage of technicians or are the companies just dreaming when it comes to pay rates? What is a realistic pay rate I can expect to get both starting out in electronics and once certified?

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

it is just as f#cked down in Australia,last year was made redundant at Qantas Heavy Maint in Sydney on the 747 line with 450 other engineers,went looking for work within the industry and the best offer i was given was $40,000 pa and thats with 20 years industry experience,left the game and now i earn twice as much working in retail.I WILL NEVER RETURN TO THE INDUSTRY AGAIN,NOT UNLESS THEY START TO OFFER STARTING WAGES OF 1OOK,AND I DON'T THINK THAT WILL EVER HAPPEN,oh yeah and i now have a social life,life is great.

[Ned Coates]

Buddy I am teetering on the edge of this right now.
30 years experience avionics with cover on several types
Retail is one of the options! But I've got my eye on a nice little broom. All I need is a village somewhere to sweep.

[Shoo shoo]

I know this is not exactly on the theme of this thread but as a mere pilot I dunno much about the practicalities of the engineering world. You mention Licensed engineers but aren't you all going to come under the new EASA thing and see licenses vanish?

I would be interested to know how licensing changes under EASA, someone told me that the employer issues them thereafter!? Tell me this isn't true!?

[Beeline]

On the introduction of EASA, licenced engineers under BCAR Section L could convert there licence to a restricted Catagory B Part-66 licence. Guys and gals with limited company Authorisation were entitled to the A-licence, this was all under 'privileged rights'.
The interpretation of the rights by some companies/operators was open to question, enabling with some manipulation the conversion of only a company authorisation to a full catagory 'B' licence!
A major operator, forementioned, has recently proposed to EASA too scrap the licence and have only company authorised staff with the priviledges of a 'B' licence holder! Luckily this was thrown out but shows a total disregard to our proffesional status by senior management. :=

[Shoo shoo]

Thanks Beeline,

I'm not up to speed on the Engineering licensing system so I'm not sure what A or B actually means but you seem to be saying companies will not be dishing out licenses after all?

So, who will under EASA then? Will the CAA continue to as is?

[Beeline]

Under current legislation the CAA issues an Aircraft Maintenence Licence if the requirements of EC regulation 2042/2003 annex III Part-66 have been met. The criterion is that sufficent theoretical and practical experience have been acheived over a period of x years; this includes exams, essays and log book experience. Up until the 28/09/06 a CAA Section L licence under the BCAR system could be converted to a part-66 licence.

Within the BCAR system different catagories entitled the holder to issue CRSs of which he held on his/her licence; for example a mechanical licence would consist of A-airframes and C-engines, an avionic licence would include X-Electrical, X-Autopilot, Instruments, radio/radar etc.
The current EASA system brings all these seperate certifying catagories under one licence e.g A&C = B1, Avionics = B2, The official title is Line Maintenance mechanical/avionic Technician.

The A-licence is a new catagory for Line maintenance Mechanics, this was just a company authorisation in the old system. It entitles the holder a Limited authorisation of 21 ramp items that he/she may certify.

The licence in any catagory is a basic licence and thus a prerequesite. Further type training must be endorsed on the licence, the level the training is pitched at depends on the catagory held e.g B1/B2 full maintainence course level 3 (approx 12 weeks), A-licence ramp course level 1-2(approx 3 weeks).

Hope that clarifies the muddy minefield that is european legislation!! :ugh:

[spannersatcx]

The categories within the aircraft maintenance licence are:
Category A Maintenance Certifying Mechanic
Category B1 Maintenance Certifying Technician (Mechanical)
Category B2 Maintenance Certifying Technician (Avionic)
Category C Base Maintenance Certifying Engineer
Category A is further divided into sub categories as follows:
A1 Aeroplanes Turbine
A2 Aeroplanes Piston
A3 Helicopters Turbine
A4 Helicopters Piston
The sub categories for Category B Line Maintenance Certifying Technician/Base Maintenance Technician are:
B1.1 Aeroplanes Turbine
B1.2 Aeroplanes Piston
B1.3 Helicopters Turbine
B1.4 Helicopters Piston
B2 Avionics (no further sub division).

[Kulwin Park]

Smudge Cat ... our wages were never reduced ... THEY JUST NEVER WENT UP!!!!

I havent thought about this much, but there are 5 sides to an aircraft operation, with many fixed costs ... BUT, one of the costs that can be debated between owner/operator to reduce overall business costs is MAINTENANCE. All other airport charges, fuel, airways charges, registrations, building leases, etc are all fixed. Wages & Maintenance are all variable, so to keep variable costs down, they will ultimately argue with maintenance - thus Chief Engineer feels the squeeze, and hires engineers for less pay, so the business can still make a profit. ... The pilots wages aren't reduced due to they need the most experienced pilots they can get to not give their company operation a bad name. Pilots are a necessity - Engineers are a burden.

Anyway, thats one little theory that has stuck in my head, but unless people have a better one, would love to hear it ....

Cheers, KP

[Mr.Brown]

i agree wth the standard of students the college is sending out is generally very poor, I believe i have the level of technical knowledge i need to be a trainee B1 engineer
There is a massive downfall in the industry nowadays in that no one is doing apprenticships, you can just go to college pass all the exames obtain the relevent experience (which is nothing to the level of an apprenticship). These lads out of college just need their sheets signed to get their B1's or B2's.
I had to graft for four years, before being given the tilte of mech/fitter. Then and only when you had the relevent experience you could apply for your airframe or engine or electrics or radar or radio etc etc.
No disrespect to those from this new system( I'm sure it's a hard couple of years) but it's because of this that the wages will fall in the future.
Too many are there just waiting for the experience without any idea of whats in store for them.No idea that a 757 PRSOV change can make grown men cry, that nappies really do get stuck in toilet dumpvalves or even worse (Vacuum toilet's)
Experience should have to gained before you do exames, this will not only eliminate the boys but will again improve the standard of engineers/technicians.
Oral exames should come back as our NAA's have no idea who they are giving all that reponsibility too.

[smudgethecat]

Well said Mr Brown, agree with all your points.

[WOTME?]

I had 26 years in the industry before I passed my Section L A & C.
Passed both the orals & the only thing that stopped me doing mods 20 & 21 was the thought of an electrical oral.
I now have full B1 on my current types - that means I am an electrician!
No way would I have passed an electrical oral when I got the restrictions lifted.
The standards have been lowered.
Maybe this is warranted by the more modern types,but there are still a lot of the old ones out there.

[theavionicsbloke]

Hi Guys.

I am sick and fed up the industry moaning about not having Engineers.

I have just converted my licence from BCAR Sec L to Part 66.

I came out of the industry but still work Part Time Contracting. Aviation is in my blood and miss being around aircraft every day all day and love the job.

However, I earn 2 x the amount I can in aviation in my alternative trade.

I have an Unrestricted B2 restricted B1 & C with some 20 types with 20years experience. None of them are wide bodies.

What makes me mad is despite the above, companies are still asking for experience & a type rating on the wide bodies and refuse to offer training. Tossed a side like some used carboard Oil Filler funnel!

so Companies, we are here, You have pleanty of Engineers, but you have to Train us on Type & renumerate us well.

WHEN WILL YOU GET THE MESSAGE ??
There is not a lack of Engineers.
Just a lack of Engineers willing to work for peanuts and get treated like dirt!

We have united and voted with our feet and I am afraid the Industry gets what it has deserved for a long time

[Mr.Brown]

I now have full B1 on my current types - that means I am an electrician!
No way would I have passed an electrical oral when I got the restrictions lifted.

I too have, since converting Passed my electrical modules and now have B1 electrics on my types ( but I'm no electrician) and there is no way I would have passed an oral.
Bring back the oral and seperate the Licence again so you can do one at a time.

[NutLoose]

The standards were lowered when EASA was formed, period.....
They had to set a standard for all Countries to attain, and I firmly believe they used probably the least regulated Country as the benchmark...... that was possibly somewhere like Greece...... And NO, I do not have anything against Greece or their engineering standards.

But I sat there amending page after page of MAMIS and the CAA Additional AD's by simply removing all the 737, 747 etc pages and dumpng them in the Bin...... I couldn't help thinking at the time, a lot of work and indeed a lot of money has gone into these and they were not issued purely for toilet paper...(ok some were) they were issued for flight safety issues and the fact I am now binning them is indicitive of a sudden and massive drop in the UK's Flight Safety standards.......

Nothing since has changed my mind...... topped of with the total lack of cohesion on licencing leaves people struggling to know what they can and cannot do and where to go, whilst the pile of toilet paper produced from Europe steadily increases at the cost of safety......

I did carefully remove the MAMIS sheets for Concorde when it finally went and kept them as a reminder of what we lost :)

[FHA]

Theavionicsbloke:
Good points there.
What other trade is it where you're making 2 x your aviation salary?
You have my full attention!
Regards,
Another avionics bloke.

[ericferret]

Don't be so sure about how much work went into those additional directives.

I worked for a UK distributor and every now and again the local CAA surveyer turned up with the latest pile of red edged bulletins and asked if any should receive AD status.

On the down side this was to the distributors benefit and not to the owners as they were forced to have the work done.

On the up side who actually knew more about the aircraft?

What was galling was when the bulletin was incorporated into the maintenance manual yet the AD remained in the additionals for no reason.

[ericferret]

It all seems to depend on who you apply too.

My last employer put me through 3 full airframe and engine type courses plus 2 avionics and electrical courses. Boroscope, engine running, airstair, RVSM, human factors, recurrent etc.

I estimate about 35 weeks training spread over 8 years with most of it in the first 3 years.

There are some companies that take training seriously.

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

i had 20 yrs industry experience with a 744 license,last year me and 450 work mates where shown the door at Qantas HM syd,looked for for a short while,within the industry,but when i was getting offers of 40 to 45k PA,i figured it was time to leave the game,i am now earning at least double my LAME PAY IN RETAIL,and i also have a social life,i don't think i will ever return to the industry.

[Blacksheep]

1. Take your B777 to an MRO or two and start negotiating for routine maintenance and you're talking labour rates of US50 to US70 an hour. Throw in major repairs and it goes up to US120.

2. Take your BMW or Mercedes Benz to the local workshop and they're asking US90 an hour for a Service. Take it in for major damage repairs and labour rates aren't even on the table.

Labour rates don't translate directly into wages paid, but the fact is garage mechanics have been more in demend than aeroplane maintenance technicians and the relative wages reflected that. Many years ago I was on a B747 electrical course with an instrument supervisor who wasn't doing the course to get more qualifications and higher pay, he was doing it just to be able to retain his supervisor status and continue in the same job. He left before the end of the course to join Plessey - maintaining traffic lights along Western Avenue. No licences needed and with higher pay and better working hours.

Not much has changed in the intervening thirty years, but I believe that things may finally be about to change. Some of the European airlines calling us for slots aren't doing it because we're cheaper (which we are), its because the slots simply aren't available in Europe.

[Rigga]

Blacksheep,
You state prices as $ per Hour - it should be $ per Man-hour

BMW/Merc Maint uses 1-2 persons per day. 8-16 man-hours

B777 heavy Maint uses 20-30 persons per day, go figure.

Maintenance is not cheap, but wages for base maint generally are.

[Ladytech]

Let's see-pilot walks away at the end of flight and tells you how much resposibility he has. We work on an aircraft system and have responsibility for that work until inspected or worked on again, and that could easily be over a year. We get approx 1/8 of the pay (considering
$per/hour, and time worked per year). Then we put up with the shifts,
the lack of facilities in all kinds of weather, incompetent supervision, and
companies that can't make a profit because costs are too high, so they send the jobs overseas (incompetent management). If the average person can't pay their bills- who do they expect to travel by air??? Besides -the average starting mechanic doesn't make enough to buy the tools they need!!
And now you wonder why their aren't enough skilled people?
It's no longer a career- it's just another job!!

[bora-bora]

Engineers are being Recruited from Eastern Europe.

At first look these guys are all well qualified (B1 / B2) and they are also well experienced.

The system is letting the UK guys down, but with expansion of EASA there is a bigger pool if you know where to look!!

:ok:

[Blacksheep]

You state prices as $ per Hour - it should be $ per Man-hour
Yes. I do contracts and we tend to get slack in our language - in our world it is taken as given that all labour rates are in man-hours. They are fully stated in black and white in the paperwork.

The question is why do you think that premium car companies have higher labour rates than aircraft MROs? Because their customers are able and willing to cough up rather than go without their precious Beemer for a few days, that's why. While I recognise the equivalent skill levels of the car mechanics, they do not carry the same responsibility levels as LAEs and its very discouraging to work in the current situation. Because airlines' customers now expect to fly halfway round the world for the price of a night out on the piss, the airlines don't have the cash to pay for maintenance. On the other hand, the regulations oblige them to have it done. So, they bargain maintenance rates down as low as they can go.

What is happening now is that MROs are running out of hangar slots and, with their customers having to outbid each other to get work done, are becoming able to resist the downward pressure on labour rates. Eventually MROs will also be in a position to outbid each other in their search for labour. The airlines will pass the increased cost on to passengers and the Shell Suit army will have to pay the proper fare for their journeys - even on LCCs. It won't happen overnight, and most of we old timers will be on our pensions before things really take off, but change is definitely on the way.

[Ned Coates]

Hopefully, spot on.

[old,not bold]

Blacksheep...


On the button, and I've just done a paper saying much the same in 1500 words of elegant prose, statistics, factors, conclusions etc.

Short, pithy, accurate statements like your last para can do a lot of damage to us BS merchants.

By the way, care is needed with assumptions about LCC fares and their passengers; there's a large Irish outfit that gets quite high average yields; the magic is worked by add-on charges but mainly because a small number of seats are sold at very high prices indeed, especially where competition is not strong, and a larger number at a fairly high price. There was a time a year or two back when on some routes they had a higher average yield than BA. Recently its average fare (ie excl taxes etc) was 49 Euros.

Flybe, which tries to be an LCC while looking more upmarket, will hit you for £280 (inc add-on charges) to get from EXT to JER and back, if you want to go at fairly short notice. Low fares are very few on that route. But then no-one else flies it.

[The Rev'd]

Hmm........doesn't sound good. I left LAME work in 1978 & have no regrets about it. Did a few things in between including retail. (still doing it).

At least you get to make your own decisions about working hours etc & you are home AT NIGHT & weekends. The social, family & health costs you pay are never compensated for by any allowance you might be lucky to receive.

$40,000 PA ? ........for some positions. Seem to remember reading somewhere in here of salaries a lot higher than that. As was said previously, once the pool of experience retires, resigns for greener pastures etc, supply & demand will dictate future salaries in this game.

[Bry78]

I agree. This problem is present on both sides of the pond, and is only going to get worse.
Often the starting pay is too low to attract potential new students to our trade, especially in the U.S.
Licensing is also posing a problem for some of us in recent years. I'm an experienced helicopter mech from the states, and currently working in the Mid-East, but I'm excluded from most jobs in Europe because I'm only A&P certified. I considered getting an EASA rating but it doesn't seem realistic to take all those tests and basically start over at this stage of my career. I wish things were different because I'd love to work in Europe.
These situations such as my licensing scenario add to the workforce problem. If U.S. licenses were accepted in Europe, and EASA license easily accepted in the U.S., I believe the industry workforce would be much more fluid, and would help alleviate some of this problem.

[Kengineer-130]

Hmmmm

Very interesting reading this thread..... I am currently in the RAF, and having had about 9 years of experience I am looking at doing my B1 licence, as I have done airframe and propulsion training throughout my career. I know it's a decision that is hard to call, but I keep wondering if it is actually worth my while going to all the trouble and expense of gettting EASA / JAR 66 / B1 Qualified, or just go and do a domestic/ industrial elecrics course or plumbing etc? :ugh:

It grinds me that If I choose to go into a non aviation job then I have effectevly wasted 9 years of experience, but looking and talking to LAE's the picture they paint is pretty grim :(, everyone says contracting is the way to go but it offers little in the way of job security and benefits..

I would love to stay within the aviation industry as aircraft have been a major interest in my life, but everything is pointing in the direction of getting a decent trade in the construction/ property service industry and taking the £££ which seem to be a lot higher for a relativly unskilled job compared to the enormous amounts of training you have to go through to be let near an aircraft :confused:

What do you guys recon? Is it a worthwhile investment me going for B1 if I want to stay in the uk, preferably the Midlands area?

[NWT]

Personally I would spend the time/effort/money etc on learning a new trade like plumbing/plastering etc Yes I know everyone thinks its easy money, but it still needs several years of experience to be good, however the up side is the better work conditions and pay. A relation of mine was a nurse (male!) and took up plastering. Basically learn t on the job, now works for himself and earns just under £3k per month. Agreed no sick pay, holiday pay etc, but only works mon-fri, about 8 hour day, in the local area only...but as he is good he gets plenty of referrals etc..wish I was a bit younger and I would go the same way. (5 years to retirement not worth it now)

[limbang]

In the Kimberley area of WA the going rate for a dual licenced GA LAME is around AUD100K pa plus plus. Harsh environment and not many takers.

[Blacksheep]

Harsh environment and not many takersAh yes, one of my Ozmates told me about the "Kimberley Cool Test" - spit on the tin and if it doesn't sizzle its cool enough for drinking.

[bvcu]

K-ENGINEER 130
If you can get anything done towards B1 on resettlement do it, when you come out you shouldnt have any problem getting work as a non certifying technician, 9 years experience means you should be be able to find your way around an aeroplane , be it a cessna 150 or a Boeing 747 ! It'll take you a couple of years work to get the relevant experience/worksheets to complete your licences, but theres plenty of work. We have been hiring guys from college because there dont seem to be the people around, and they have minimal experience, but all the bits of paper !!! which isnt a lot of use , you cant buy experience !!

[boshank]

>We have been hiring guys from college because there dont seem to be the people around, and they have minimal experience, but all the bits of paper !!! which isnt a lot of use , you cant buy experience !!



Who are these companies that are hiring college students?????? Have tried all of them a million times and no one will look at me twice because I havent got enough experience!!!!

[grababadger]

I think it is a 'massive' generalisation to assume that all ab-inito student's are somewhat incapable. I myself an ex-newcastle student have contracted for 2 years post work experience without any complaints.. I have not yet applied for my license because I feel that more experience, i.e. troubleshooting is required, although in theory I could apply.

I do think that it is the fault of the 'old school' engineer, of whom many are very nice people, but appear to be threatened and annoyed by us hard working ex-students. I have worked with many mechanics, with plus 10 years experience and feel that they know very little in comparison (mainly the ones that whinge), although the very good mechanics are nothing but helpful...

Ok.... intially some students are slow learners in the practical world, but the quicker the experienced guys help us out and not just sneer at the very word BRISTOL, the quicker people like me will learn and go on to obtain the B1 with the required experience.

Finally for the record, 2 years exams/practical followed by 2-3years hands on experience gives an average of 4.5 years apprenticeship. Also this is followed by a type-rating, typically requiring a further 6 month's experience.

Please for the sake of the industry help us out 'where required' and not just assume that we are all the same. The alternative is that the shortage continues and our small industry is shipped off to places like Estonia and maybe even Poland. Think hard...

[mechchick]

Interesting thread.

I read about the ex- QANTAS guy only being offered 40,000? Odd when I left Ansett in 2000 I walked straight into a 52,000 job in QLD, mind you I moved from Victoria to get it and my wage has only ever gone up since with plenty of work to choose from, and I only have 15 years experience.

I dont ever plan to leave the industry, there is now too much money to be made with plenty of work out there if you really want it.

[EGT Redline]

grababadger, nobody is saying that all ab-initio students are incapable. What they are saying is that you lack experience. By your own admission you have basically implied that you are too inexperienced to apply for a licence. That’s a wise decision.

Secondly, the ‘old school’ engineer does not feel threatened and annoyed by you so called hard working ex-students. Why would he? You are mechanic with only 2 years experience, whereas he on the other hand, has been turning the tools for a good number of years and has established a sound reputation for himself. You both apply for the same job, I know who I would employ.

What really pisses us engineers off is the fact that you students want everything all at once. The licence, the type ratings and the £40k plus salaries, you want it all now. Only a fool would put somebody like you in a certifying position, you’d be way out of your depth and the consequences of your mistakes could be dire.

I’m sorry but 2 years exams/practical followed by 2-3 years hands on does not equal a proper 4 year apprenticeship. Apprentices spend weeks filing a lump of steel flat and square and working different metals to minute tolerances. They learn to drill, ream and tap holes, use precision measuring equipment and an array of hand tools and undertake structural repairs. They work in bays learning to strip and assemble components from scratch. We are talking months and months of practical experience before they are even let loose on a real aeroplane, not some mickey mouse 10 week OJT placement.

The ‘college of knowledge’ student lacks experience and it shows. Yes they might be capable of changing simple components but when faced with a defect or structural repair they are at a complete loss. Manual dexterity is almost non existent in some. As somebody has previously stated, experience is something you cannot buy. It takes many years to become a competent aircraft maintenance engineer. I know guys who will readily admit they are still learning after 40 odd years in the industry.

I think the colleges are to blame. They are convincing people that they can be earning big bucks as a LAE within a few years of doing their course. As such we are seeing an influx of people into the industry from all manner of different backgrounds.

What you need to do grababadger is drop the attitude. Try telling a 10 year time-served mechanic that he knows sod all compared to you and I’m sure we can all predict the outcome. Humility and an ability to listen and learn from those around you will do wonders for your future. Opportunities will eventually come your way but you must be patient. Remember……don’t run before you can walk!!

End of first post, rant over.

[plasticmerc]

I know the maintenance industry cannot keep up to the pace of the likes of LCC and other airline growth. What is it approx. 100 a/c manufactured each month by the big guys Boeing,airbus,embraer,bombardier.
How many companies worldwide have increased their maintenance facilities?:confused:
How many have increased training both to Licensed guys and apprentices?
All you see around the world is new pilot cadet programs, and accelerated pilot this and that!:confused:
Not to knock the guys (pilots) but you can train a pilot in 6 weeks not hard, how long does it take to train an engineer to be of good use?
You can get accelerated training and sorts but how long does it take to get to be comfortable on type.
When will aviation companies world wide stop treating us engineers as monkeys?:ugh:
Every year all I seem to hear is maintenacne is costing too much its taking too long to get an a/c back online no one thinks that maybe even the parts suppliers can't keep up to the pace.
and finally why is a pilot aprofessional and an engineer a grease monkey?:oh:

[grababadger]

Ok.....

''What really pisses us engineers off is the fact that you students want everything all at once. The licence, the type ratings and the £40k plus salaries, you want it all now. Only a fool would put somebody like you in a certifying position, you’d be way out of your depth and the consequences of your mistakes could be dire''

Only a fool would make such a statement based on what, a few students you have worked with ?? what you are saying is wrong and un-fair. Clearly you have a negative attitude towards ex-students,

How many EX students have you exactly worked with?

You have also failed to understand the meaning of my original post, which was not one of boast, but plead...

I have worked with many engineers, of whom I have respected and shown nothing but humbleness.

Although I agree that two years is not enough, I will say that the apprenticeship schemes are no more advanced than the ab-inito courses. Take into account that we had to file and then file and then bend, drill, ream and then tap, then rivet etc....
whilst taking difficult exams, which in itself shows the ability to read interpret information and act on it (something vital to an engineer).

Also as for not being able to carry out defect repairs or structural repairs, I have carried out many repairs (structural repairs) without complaints, sometimes praise.

As for telling a mechanic with 10yrs experience that he/she is crap would not be the wisest of movement by any means. But the point is, some are... some are clearly not. My point is that time vs experience is not always true, its about knowledge backed up with experience, not just 'experience' which can sometimes have the reverse effect leading to complacency, maybe a few 'dire' consequences.

You have certainly validated my point with your response and hopefully other readers may give their input.

'RANT' over

[boshank]

what makes you think we want everything all at once? what a pathetic statement! do you not think being skint for 3 years working our way through college means we want everything at once? just because its taken you years to get the knowlege and experiance you needed to be looked at twice by a company doesn't mean your any more competent than a guy who has just left college.

i happen to have been very good at the practical side of my college work, me and a friend had taken a 40 year old plane fit for the scrap heap and rebuilt the whole hudraulic system and made it fully functional within a week. we had no manuals only common sense and knowlege we had built up in our modules.

i am not after my licence tomorow, just the chance to get the practical knowlege and experiance i need to apply for it.

[grababadger]

smudgethecat....

Real apprenticeship training??? Again another 'old school' biased niave individual who only see's black and white. Ive worked along side apprentices, most of whom admitted that my knowledge was greater than their's. I was regulary asked for advice.. I've met guys that cannot even use a micrometer, the kind of people with 'years' of experience.

Interesting how you assume all students are the same, when their are around 100 students being released each year from ab-inito. It appears to me that you are judging a minority.

Also, interestingly after speaking to a hanger manager, I was told that one of the best tech's was ex-bristol-in fact he was on permanent call when needed. :ugh:

[Krystal n chips]

boshank
Could you explain please as to which a/c type you and your friend managed to restore the complete hydraulic system on......and only took one week to do so ?.
Just curious.

[Litebulbs]

Was it this one?

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/2702760.htm

[Mr.Brown]

me and a friend had taken a 40 year old plane fit for the scrap heap and rebuilt the whole hudraulic system and made it fully functional within a week. we had no manuals only common sense and knowlege we had built up in our modules.
:D
I wonder what the CAA would do if they knew you are willing to work on aircraft systems with no manuals only common sense.:=
Common sense tells me, as a time served licenced engineer, not to let you anywhere near an aircraft.:ok:

[stevef]

To be fair, I've had Brunel lads (both on work experience and with shiny new LWTR Section Ls) alongside me in the hangar and they were generally all right except for being a bit slow and underconfident to begin with. It's quite a jump from the classroom to the hangar floor and they need time to find their feet. Give them simple jobs initially and more challenging tasks as they progress. A good minder will keep an eye on them, handing out advice, insults and grudging compliments in equal measures. YOU could be the guy they remember fondly in twenty years time...
I've also met a couple of plonkers as well, with an 'I know it all' attitude but they usually get sorted out.

[Mr.Brown]

It's quite a jump from the classroom to the hangar floor and they need time to find their feet. Give them simple jobs initially and more challenging tasks as they progress. A good minder will keep an eye on them, handing out advice, insults and grudging compliments in equal measures
steve,
You've almost just described an actual apprenticeship. But these guys already have the bits of paper required to be licenced engineers
So what happens in a line enviornment?
Remember these lads already have the bits of paper, there's no time for them to find their feet, nobody to mind them and when the snags start coming there's no simple tasks! And there will be more than just insults in equal measures.
How does a young person with a big loan for their education and in a position of great responsibility, in their first job deal with commercial pressure?
I don't really want to take away from the effort these guys and gals put in but you just can't beat a good apprenticeship.

[grababadger]

The 'know it all attitude' is quite common amongst alot of students, however-that's the same in most industies. Myself a humble person...

I hope you understand that it's not as easy as just passing the exams?

The logbook has to be filled with entries from each chapters, then you have to show preficiency in each area of aircraft maintenance. Not just two years of any 'work'. Actual signed of logsheets (2-3 yrs) worth.

As for the apprenticeship being any better? im not sure how you have come to a definitive conclusion considering the masses of variables involved.

Anyway..time to move on.

As soon as I get my license im leaving the industry, mainly due to the the whole school ground environment which exists within most hangers. Nothing against individuals, just those that exercise their 'experience' as being a weapon for arrogance and not using it appropriatly, i.e. helping others.

Most Tech's ive worked for have been superb, although there is always the underlying issue of what they really think???

Thanks Steve for your positive input, nice to see you understand my point more than the other so called 'grown' men.

:sad:

[tasbbc]

I would like to know that , Hkar66,catb1.1 ,is it easy to find the job outside hong kong?

[spannersatcx]

If you are talking about europe then the answer is a definate NO at this time, it just simply isn 't recognised there.

I believe places that acept an ICAO type 2 licence wouldn't have a problem, Dubai for example you would have to sit an exam on legislation and the rest would be recognised for conversion.

When you think that the HKG system was set up by the UK CAA and is almost verbatum the same as EASA regs then it would be easy, but I can assure you it isn't.

[tasbbc]

that means I only work in hong kong ,isn't it?
how about if i having a FAA exam, is it much better?

And i would like to know the salary outside of HKG?

[grababadger]

'You've almost just described an actual apprenticeship. But these guys already have the bits of paper required to be licenced engineers'.


not true...

You have to satisfy the CAA, (the same people that issued you'r license)that you have competent practical skills and experience-and that's not easy. Which AGAIN takes 2-3 years, normally 3 years of consistent work.

That gives 2years (exams/practical, including filing, working on dead aircraft etc) + 3 years practical, over all of the chapters. Then a type course 2 months, plus 6 months experience on type, after you have please QA.

That's around 5 years! so don't be fooled into thinking its just about having the 'paper bits'.

[Krystal n chips]

grababadger,
If it's not a daft question....why do you intend to get your licence...and then leave the industry?. This would, being logical, seem to be a counter productive course of action to take if you really want to change direction.

As for the apprenticeship issue, I wouldn't get overly concerned. When apprenticeships were the normal route, there were plenty of antagonists around who felt that unless you had completed a BA / BEA / BOAC / Woodford / Chadderton / Chester / Dunsfold etc etc version ( select location of choice here ) you had not done a "proper" apprenticeship.....as I was duly informed by at least 3 "managers" over the years in respect of my sabbatical at the Halton Hilton....the same comments were also applied to those trained in the FAA by the way.

[grababadger]

kystal and chips,

Im learning to fly at the moment and have been advised by the CAA to get the B1 license as it will give me a better chance of getting a job. Im hoping to do some charity work in AFRICA, as a pilot-so the License may come in handy, where pilots/engineers are required.Plus if it all falls through I might have no choice but to fall back into engineering.

[Krystal n chips]

grababadger,

Well if that's your intention, your not as daft as you sound ;):E

Best of luck to you and your chosen area of work :ok:

[grababadger]

Krystal and Chips,


Thanks..

Tell me what kind of business you are in?

Iv'e thought about going into business, maybe selling aircraft spares online... something I'll consider later on.

[Krystal n chips]

grababadger,

Check your PM's

[MRDART]

I am starting a new job on monday I have B1/B2/C license and only turboprop experience still they gave me the job although they were searching for md 80 and b737 experienced guys so i think there is a shortage in engineers.

Furthermore I saw someone express conserns about to low quality on newly graduated engineers, I have also experienced the same during the last 2-3 years, I feel the lack of basic handworking skills and fault isolation skills. What is worse I´ve also seen totally fresh guys coming out with the attitude of "I know it all, been there done that", I told one guy lets see how tough you are when you are alone at night in the rain or snow with a nice wiring problem on a 30 year old aircraft where wiring tags are "a bit worn" or maybe a nice old fuel or oil leak and the flight ops guys(nothing against you ops guys) pushing for departure...
When I first got out on my first job you looked up to the guys with experience ( I am not saying to not ask questions or discuss the job)
When my licence was issued the CAA inspector looked me in the eyes and said this is no free pass to aviation work it is your Licence to learn!
I think that is a quite good way of looking at your licence no matter how old or experienced you are...
As for you fresh guys out there treat your mentors (or whatever you want to call them) with respect and they will give you respect back.
:}:}

[ericferret]

I remember being told it was a licence to kill in the hands of the unwary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bellsux]

Here is the stats on what is happening in Australia.

http://www.casa.gov.au/ame/amestats.htm

Interesting but not suprised to see the downward trend in the 21 to 30 age group. It would be interesting to see someone put in airframe numbers over the same period.

[brendo82]

I have seen a few comments here regarding the wages etc for us engineers that they seem to be quite low, i have just started up as an outstation with Ryanair and the pay is pretty good, i get to move around to spain etc and get some good benefits aswell, its good to get out of the cold into some good weather and a good roster aswell. im sure they have vacancies all over europe check out thier website for vacancies.. i think they are recruiting.

www.ryanair.com (http://www.ryanair.com)

[BAe146s make me cry]

A small update to the original topic - EASA supposedly had a meeting
last week on Wednesday last week re-opening the issue of Working Group145-12.

It would appear that the shortage of correctly qualified maintenance
staff is troubling not only the industry but now EASA directly.

If any change were to be implemented, what would this mean to you
if there was a reduced requirement to hold a Part 66 AML or indeed
any ICAO Type I AML in the EC states??

BAe146?? :{:{:{

[1234567890]

They are looking at approving the Australian licence when the Australian Authority introduce the Easa style licencing system-B1 B2 etc. With this they hope Engineers will be able to travel accross borders subject to labour laws.

[Rigga]

Correct me if I appear to have this wrong... but I am lead to believe that a lot of UK engineers have gone to Airbus and / or the Middle East, i.e. Dubai, to ease the burden on wallets and Bank Accounts, thus making an apparent shortage in UK's large aircraft industry.

I left the large ac world due to a form of progression in the helicopter world. I am 737 B1 rated, but with a helicopter background.

I also believe that some helicopter blokes have crossed to the Large side because of the shortage, thereby creating another shortage.

The thread seems to be that there is engineer movement throughout the aviation industry as money beckons to those that are looking - isnt that the way it was in the 80's?

[itwilldoatrip]

Certainly hope that EASA doesnt admit OZ engineers. They say that they will accept your licence, however you have to do Air Leg (no problem) but also you will find that trade tests will have to be done and maybe modules, definately hurdles will be put in your way.
The Unions certainly don't want you and really niether do the OZ engineers.

[Toolman101]

Licensed engineers on 4O,OOO aus dollars? thats pitifull, whats happened over there to reduce wages to such a low level ?


Johnny Howards Workchoices:{:{:{

[BAe146s make me cry]

WRT post #10, The BA Approved Personnel/Part 66 Conversions.

Here's a link to the latest update in the ALAE 1981's efforts to obtain an example Conversion Report and suitable full explanation from the UKCAA
including details of adherence to conversion terms as laid out in
EASA Part 66.

http://www.alae.org//_assets/File/Documents/Articles/The%20UK%20CAA.pdf

The UKCAA SRG PLD cannot continue to evade responsibility for its actions...

BAe146??? :{:{:{

[ex-ranker]

HI all,


Id just like to post a similar question to Kengineer,

I too have served 10 years in the RAF as a now, mechanical aircraft technician. I'm about to complete my 2nd 'Q' course on gas turbine engines.

I'm looking at getting out at my 12 year pension point and possibly studying over the next 2 years towards a B1 (admittedly my leg. is poor as the system seems to change quite a lot!) - this may not even be 'the' licence in 2 years time?

my question is this:

Is there a real shortage of licenced engineers or is it the pay and conditions have deteriorated that much people have had enough?

I, and Kengineer im sure have just suffered the outcomes of 8,000 people being made redundant (thanks labour!) and our conditions are getting to the flight safety critical point. people are leaving in their droves.


Would you recommend me studying (resettlement, college) for a B1? I'm very interested in the aviation industry and like many ex-forces people do not want to waste all the 'experience' However I am no way implying my experience on fast jets has much weight compared to a full apprentice-trained technician with 20+ years in the industry, if anything I would hope these people would 'show me the ropes' and I could learn a great deal from them? as lets be honest, I'll effectively be a student!


Forgive me If I have replicated Kengineers' post, I'm a little unsure as to the direction I should take, all I know is it most probably will be OUT of the MOD career path. I have other options I am looking into, but if they do not come to fruition, I may continue my aviation maintenance experience outside the RAF.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you.

[ericferret]

Don't undersell youself or your experience.

A large proportion (majority?) of UK maintenance engineers are ex military.

Most of the apprenticeships died years ago and are only just being resurrected.

The money in the airlines and the offshore helicopters has been rising consistantly.

With a overtime £50,000+ is achievable.

My basic has just risen to £39,000 in my first year with a new employer.
If the restrictions are lifted off my licence I get a further £4,000
Any additional type ratings bring £1500 each.

If I get B2 (fat chance) then another £4,000 is added.

[Pielots]

currently sitting my part 66 1.3 modules however i find it infuriating at the lack of effort from the CAA. Having to wait nearly four months to get an exam date is completely sole destroying.

An industry that is nearly on its knees for the lack of licensed engineers and the don't seem to want to help. What the F@?% is going on.

Kids today want the quick buck, you can do a plastering course and be earning over £150 a day within six months of learning. So what is the point in working your nuts off for probably seven years for the same outcome.

Beggers belief

[spannersatcx]

ericferret, pray tell whom you work for and if there are any jobs goiing? Have B1 unrestricted.:eek:

[quichemech]

Are you a CHC man by any chance? Looks like their pay scale.:rolleyes:

[MightyHunter AGE]

Hi gents

I am after a wee bit of advice reference CAA giving credits against modules for ex-forces.

Not knowing much about the previous lisence and the credits they used to give, I have heard a rumour they 'may' be considering this again.

I e-mailed the CAA weeks ago and have had nothing back since, is this a common problem with them?

For the record I did a three year apprenticeship in airframes and propulsion and have been 'in' for 21 years with experince on Buccaneers, Hunters, Tornado and the last 6 on Nimrods as an aircraft ground engineer.

I am not one of the ex-RAF know-it-alls but am fairly confident of my engineering abilites and have my first two module exams next month.

Any advice anyone can hand out will be well recieved.

Best regards

[spannersatcx]

From the CAA website (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=177&pagetype=70&gid=1102&faqid=721)

Skilled Workers, Armed Forces, Non-EU Applicants

What credits can ex-military aircraft engineers get towards obtaining the Part-66 licence?

There are currently no credits available towards the Part-66 module exams. However, authenticated engineering experience on operational aircraft will be counted towards the overall experience requirement. A minimum of 1 years experience is required on civil operating aircraft relevant to the category or sub-category of licence you are applying for.

[boeing_eng]

Its highly unlikely there will be any future exemptions for Forces training etc (as this is not now down to the CAA but EASA)

Previously under Section L, the CAA only had to satisfy itself that UK forces training met a required standard. Now, EASA has to consider every country involved and differing standards obviously exist making it a nightmare to dealk with!

Thats not to say that differing standards existed prior to the introduction of Part 66 Licences across EASA States! :ugh:

[spannersatKL]

Unless you are Italian and work for BA:}!!