Article by Simon Calder of the Independent

[teifiboy]

Interesting view of our profession
http://classified.independent.co.uk/travel/article2721292.ece
A junior house doctor at the end of a 19-hour-shift, who works in an industry that also deals in matters of life and death, will look enviously at the limit on pilots' hours, which permits only 900 duty hours a year – corresponding to less than two-and-a-half hours a day.

[NigelOnDraft]

Shame he got it completely wrong :{ limit on pilots' hours, which permits only 900 duty hours a year .... and there was I thinking the limt was 900 hours flying per year :confused:

The Duty limit to which he refers I think is 2000 by some EU rule, and ~2200 as far as can be determined by CAP 371 ;)

[adm100]

I know I don't get anywhere near the £100k "average" salary

[100above]

adm100 couldn't agree more - I read the article in the Independent on Sat morning and thought how well researched it must be as I read the bit about us being on an average salary of £100,000 :rolleyes: Next time you see him on your flight, pass a copy of your payslip to him !

[Say again s l o w l y]

One e-mail off to the travel section pointing out the mistakes. I wonder if I'll get a response?

[haughtney1]

Just sent a snotty email to his webpage:ok:

[nilcostoptionmyass]

What a moron, why do the newspapers seem unable to employ anyone with any understanding of anything or capable of doing some proper research? is this bloke a school dropout ?

900 duty hours a year ? £100k AVERAGE ?

what the hell is he spouting about ? there again, who reads the Independant ?

[gobfa]

[QUOTE]What a moron, why do the newspapers seem unable to employ anyone with any understanding of anything or capable of doing some proper research? is this bloke a school dropout ?
900 duty hours a year ? £100k AVERAGE ?
[QUOTE]
Is it possible that nice man based in Dublin provided the aviation background to the article :rolleyes:

[Nineiron]

Duty hour/flying hour ratio on shorthaul night freight can be 5:1 on some operations. The junior doctor gets HOME after his 19hr shift, can eat proper meals and not experience climate/timezone changes. I could go on.

[Two's in]

Not so much an article, as an assortment of incoherent ramblings about the inequalities of life that prevent some people from being pilots. Then goes on to describe the manifest shortcomings of said SkyGods, almost as if they were simply just human beings. So when did Simon Calder fail his aircrew selection, or did his wife just run off with a pilot? Newsworthy indeed.

[Nineiron]

Its better than that:
"Simon's first job was a cleaner for British Airways at Gatwick airport. He later worked as a security guard frisking passengers. It was during the long gaps between flights (this was a while ago) that he began to write budget travel "

From his website

[MikeAlphaTangoTango]

Airport cleaner + security guard + journalist = well qualified to make ill-conceived, inaccurate and incoherent remarks like that. :ugh:

What a fool :*

[fireflybob]

A formal complaint should be made to the Press Complaints Commission or whatever it is called these days. Can we sue him for slander/libel? BALPA/IPA should pen a suitable reply!

[AltFlaps]

Assuming he treats every other area of travel with the same inaccuracies, then I for one will never bother to listen to the man again ...

[John Wayne]

Send him a letter. Here's mine:

How ever did such drivel get beyond the wastepaper basket beside your desk? The inaccuracies contained within this article reflect not only upon the already tarnished image of British journalists, but also prove to the public that News--Independent Style--is by definition, any hogwash that can be placed in the white spaces between revenue earning advertisements.

---

The email address is here: http://news.independent.co.uk/article293866.ece

[nilcostoptionmyass]

"A junior house doctor at the end of a 19-hour-shift, who works in an industry that also deals in matters of life and death, will look enviously at the limit on pilots' hours, which permits only 900 duty hours a year – corresponding to less than two-and-a-half hours a day."

What a fool.

This one is for you moron.

16.25 hours after reporting for my flying duty, and without any time away from my desk, relaxing in the staff canteen, going for a walk or watching tv in my lunchbreak I can be landing an aircraft in crap weather and winds with you and your family in the back.

As you can see, low cost has done nothing for the safety of air travel.

Go back to cleaning.

[p7lot]

Can you see me sneering.....

[WHBM]

Simon Calder has always been a complete plonker with his travel writings on all sorts of different subjects. This one is no different.

He probably thinks the cabin crew are there purely to serve the refreshments as well.

[Porker964]

Just SLF, but it occurs to me that Junior Doctors generally only have one life in their hands at any given time and are usually well monitored by the nursing staff...

[Dogma]

I have personal experience of S Calder and he is a wind up merchant. Case Closed. However, it does serve to highlight the need for a clear and unambiguous position from BALPA.

I could not help noticing that the BATA association, whom so vigorously defended the CAP371, have MK Airlines as a member! They have at least two accidents attributable to tiredness/fatigue! What a joke.:ugh:

Any news on when NEOS will be using Itailian FTL's to fly longhaul ex-LGW for various UK Charter airlines?

[No Country Members]

I think junior doctors probably do work longer hours in some instances, but to suggest that pilots work short hours simply gets it wrong, and some quick research, on this site alone, around the subject of fatigue, would (should) have left any sensible and fair writer going back to his keyboard. :ugh:

Still, it's in the newspapers now, so it must be true. We can expect to have to prepare ourselves for comment from non aviation professionals (and some cleaners too, no doubt) who have happened accross this article.

[flexy]

boring boring boring....if its not M O'Leary winding you up its someone else. Why do you get so upset if you say its not true?? Just leave it alone - you cant be too tired if you all have time to write letters and get flustered - if you were that knackered you wouldnt be bothered!!

[haughtney1]

No Flexy, its just that morons like yourself are so easy to convince....particulalry if you read the independent, or the Guardian:hmm:

How about Flexy I call you a lazy blowhard, with a fetish for young boys? do you feel the need to correct me?

muppet

[No Country Members]

Why do you get so upset if you say its not true??


I guess everyone has a professional pride, especially in this industry, and nobody likes their professionalism being questioned. The article asserts that pilots are overpaid and lazy. I am not sure how upset people here are, there are comments, some good ones, and some downright funny ones besides, but upset? Nah, we are used to ill researched drivel, but it still makes an eyebrow or two raise now and again when a new article appears.

Rather than make sweeping statements about working conditions, why not just ask professional pilots? At least that chap from the BBC came on here and did that when he was researching fatigue. Frankly, looking at the article, and the style in which it is written, I am not sure the writer would have had an open mind anyway - a bit like you eh Flexy?

[Viola]

Although only a PPL , I've emailed the Independent to complain. I know from people who are professional pilots how hard they work and this comment was more suited to a tabloid than a sensible newspaper like the Independent.

[Capot]

I find myself almost hoping that some of the people posting above, with all your righteous indignation at the error over 900 hours, will find themselves in an operating theatre in the hands of an anaesthetist who is entering her 16th hour of continuous duty (that means real work, ie no breaks beyond 10 minutes, no rest, mostly no sitting down, not "duty" as understood in FTL), monitoring the life or death of a patient. An error of a few milligrams, if she makes it, might kill you. Probably will, in fact. If she loses her exclusive concentration on a large number of parameters monitoring your condition for more than 60 seconds, that too could be the end of you. She is doing this for the 5-15th time, or thereabouts, in this single duty period.

She is paid about $35K a year, is solely responsible for what she does, and will be thrown to the wolves if you die as a result of a moment's inattention or tiredness, by the surgeon, by her department boss and by the Trust (strange word) that employs her. People will howl for her blood, with your family in the lead.

She may also be out of a job later this year, or have to go overseas, because the Trusts find it cheaper, or rather are forced by Gordon Brown's cutbacks to employ badly-qualified foreigners instead of offering a career to those the Government has trained at huge public expense. (Ironic, that, isn't it, in the light of events?)

Now, there you go, that's over. Back to your private whingeing, chaps, about how tough your life is. Don't mind me. Just don't need an operation, or if you do, pay for it privately out of your allowances.

Sorry, not quite over. I really do hope that the cretin who posted
The junior doctor gets HOME after his 19hr shift, can eat proper meals and not experience climate/timezone changes.

may one day realise that when you have not eaten, rested or slept during the 19 hour shift, and have to start another one in 8 hours time, there is no time for proper meals and the benefit of not having time zone changes or climate changes is minimal. You simply buy a garage sandwich, eat it and collapse into bed. Or at least that's what the anaesthetist referred to above does. When you go into hospital for an operation or after an accident, don't forget to have a discussion with the doctors about your opinions, will you? They'll welcome your input.

[one four sick]

Capot,

Slightly acidic, what's the matter?:ugh:
Why earn £35K if you can earn £100K(!), you have to ask yourself!!!
Also you're missing the point entirely.
We fly a 150-500 people at a time, not just the one patient!
We MUST NOT BE FATIGUED at all when at work.
Would you like to fly with me on my day 6, sector 4???

[Capot]

We MUST NOT BE FATIGUED at all when at work.

Of course, I didn't get it. That only applies to pilots, doesn't it.

Jesus.

[dallas dude]

Capot,

Respectfully, you are missing the point here.

None of the responses denigrates or minimises the comparitive medical profession. I'm sure the vast majority agree that medical professionals are underpaid and endure long hours. If this was the logic and reasoning of Calder's very poorly researched article I'm also quite sure most pilots reading it would be nodding their heads in agreement.

However, Calder has slipped up and made a fool of himself among those who know what they are talking about regarding fatigue. It's onerous, as I'm quite certain it is among the medical profession.

Calder suggesting (falsely) that pilots have it so good does NOTHING to improve the lot of said medical profession. It merely continues to undermine and dis-respect pilot professionals' daily reality in the media.

For far too long we have turned the other cheek. Hence, useless hacks like Calder continue to find an outlet for their chip wrapper fodder.

As a profession, we need to do a far better job of holding folks like Calder accountable for such drivel. I can assure you of this; if a pilot or medical professional made such a simple mistake in detail our bosses would have our guts for garters (rightfully so). What professional "harm" is likely to befall Calder for such a clumsy attempt?

dd

[svenny]

you could always email his editor, pointing out that the research done by one of one of his "senior" journalists was deeply flawed:

[email protected]

[fireflybob]

you could always email his editor, pointing out that the research done by one of one of his "senior" journalists was deeply flawed:



Email on the way - suggest we all so likewise.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Capot, nobody is doubting how hard other people work. What they are annoyed about is the lack of accuracy by this muppet of a journalist.

So lets have no more of the willy waving "I work harder than you so there" nonsense.

[IcePack]

The One thing that is diferent between doctoring and flying. In normal circumstances only the patient dies when a "C***up* is made.
Now piloting in normal circumstances, the pilot also dies.

Anyway why is it that in every other profession you are considered to be at work when say walking down the corridor or sitting at a desk. BUT pilots only when actually off the ground. Ah! I know pilots are not part of the human race. That's why.
:ugh:

[Mentaleena]

The one thing's always forgotten by the pilot-bashers is that while everything's fine, life's a bit easy, granted, but as soon as something happens - that's when the pilots come into their own.
The amazing 757 vs Heron recently at MAN comes into mind.
Those two guys may have been just about ready to get the newspapers out and look what they've ended up having to deal with.
So, all you uninformed know-it-alls, think about that before talking absolute drivel about this profession!
I'm off for a 4 sector now!

[RoyHudd]

Oh dear, the non-pilots are dominating the Professional Pilots' website again....and they are so evidently without relevant knowledge or experience.

I wish they would go and play elsewhere.

[fireflybob]

Yes - I won't tell the medical profession how to do their job and how long they should work!

[sky9]

If the other email address for simon kelner comes back try
[email protected]
Simon Calder doesn't appear to have a logical email address at the independent; possibly he is a freelance.
Shame really, I quite liked the guy when he appeared on the TV.

[Hobbit]

Comparing a pilots work to a Junior Doctor's is disingenuous. Junior Doctors are paid a pittance for the outstanding work that they do, and the fact that they work such dangerously long hours should not be mocked. Perhaps instead Mr Calder could devote his time to something more worthwhile, explaining why pilots have limits to their duty time while the medical profession does not. Pilots work in a safety related profession, as indeed do doctors. Much research has been carried out on the insidious dangers of fatigue. Instead of trying to drag down the standards established over the years in aviation lets try to raise them everywhere to the standard, which is by no means a benchmark, set by aviation.
For those who do not believe that fatigue is an issue the following is lifted verbatim from the pages of the BMJ:
An 8 year old boy was admitted for elective surgery on the eardrum. He was anaesthetised and an endotracheal tube inserted, along with an internal stethoscope and temperature probe. The anaesthetist did not listen to the chest after inserting the tube. The temperature probe connector was not compatible with the monitor (the hospital had changed brands the previous day). The anaesthetist asked for another but did not connect it; he
also did not connect the stethoscope.
Surgery began at 08 20 and carbon dioxide concentrations began to rise after about 30 minutes.
The anaesthetist stopped entering CO2 and pulse on the patient's chart. Nurses observed the anaesthetist nodding in his chair, head bobbing; they did not speak to him because they “were afraid of a confrontation.”
At 10 15 the surgeon heard a gurgling sound and realised that the airway tube was disconnected. The problem was called out to the anaesthetist, who reconnected the tube. The anaesthetist did not check breathing sounds with the stethoscope.
At 10 30 the patient was breathing so rapidly the surgeon could not operate; he notified the anaesthetist that the rate was 60/min. The anaesthetist did nothing after being alerted.
At 10 45 the monitor showed irregular heartbeats.
Just before 11 00 the anaesthetist noted extreme heartbeat irregularity and asked the surgeon to stop operating. The patient was given a dose of lignocaine, but his condition worsened.
At 11 02 the patient's heart stopped beating. The anaesthetist called for code, summoning the emergency team. The endotracheal tube was removed and found to be 50% obstructed by a mucous plug. A new tube was inserted and the patient was ventilated.
The emergency team anaesthetist noticed that the airway heater had caused the breathing circuit's plastic tubing to melt and turned the heater off. The patient's temperature was 108°F. The patient died despite the efforts of the code team.

[catflaps]

In my experience, everyone in every profession thinks they do a great job and resents "external" comment or interference. In my experience, every profession fails, at times, to meet its own high standards. In my experience self-regulation doesn't work and, left to their own devices, professions fail to address shortcomings. With these points in mind, I welcome Mr. Calder's article. The venom and bile poured out on this board is just a dangerous symptom of an arrogant profession, which sees no need to justify itself to its customers.

[rubik101]

Guess what, I sent a fairly rude mail to [email protected] and this reply arrived a little while later.
Dear Mr Rubik
Thank you for your e-mail about my column on pilots’ working conditions last Saturday. I have used an excerpt from it in the Open Jaw section of The Independent Traveller to be published on Saturday, 7 July (page 19), as part of a representative selection of pilots' views. I have also referred readers to the PPRuNe website if they wish to read more responses.
Yours sincerely,
Simon Calder

So now we have to buy the Indie on Sunday?

[Shaft109]

I have to disagree with the article you recently wrote about this subject. Pilots are paid for when this happens

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZwsYtNDE

Please be more balanced in your reporting.

[Danny]

OK, so you sent a rude email to Mr Calder. By doing so, you have now denigrated our profession much better than Mr Calder could have done!

Will his reference to your rude letter even be able to prove that you are even a pilot, never mind a professional one? Knee jerk reaction such as has been exposed in this thread serves no purpose but to make fools of those of you who are unable to think laterally, never mind even an inch ahead!

I, for one, am becoming increasingly despondent with the level of debate and content from contributors to this forum. There are far too many posters whose only qualification with regards to being a professional pilot is the fact that they can read the name of the forum. The time is rapidly approaching when the pretenders and those wannabes who are unable to make the grade will be forced off this forum and into Jet Blast where their comments will enjoy a wider audience and more appropriate reaction.

So Mr Calder got it wrong. Whether it was deliberate or not is not relevant to us on here. We all know that the 900 hours a year divided by 52 weeks and then divided by 7 days will give an unrepresentative answer. It obviously suits him to have a go at some of you lot who are about as hypocritical as it is possible to be. You have a go at journalists, classifying them all into one single category and then make posts on here that make even the worst offenders of the media seem like Pulitzer prize winners!

If someone would like to take the time and effort to write to Mr Calder and explain to him politely where he is wrong and ask him to put a balanced response in his magazine article with a reference to the fact that some posters on this forum are definitely not airline pilots and know not what they harp on about and we are really hard working people trying to make a living whilst managing our fatigue and tiredness, whether from multiple short haul sectors or single long haul sectors that involve being permanently jet-lagged, then we may have a remote chance of regaining some of the lost respect, no thanks to knee-jerk reactions!

I seem to remember an article that I think was written by Simon Calder where he travelled with one crew on an easyJet 4 sector day. He only had to sit in the cabin and write his article and, if I remember correctly, he was feeling absolutely knackered before he started the third sector. He may want to try repeating his experience 5 days in a row and then rethink his opinion whilst remembering he wasn't even working the job at the time.

So, please, keep your knee-jerk reactions to yourselves, especially if you are not even an airline pilot, in which case, do not write to Mr Calder in our defence as it will probably do no good anyway!

Oh, and Simon, I know you do frequent these pages from time to time... please stop baiting the pilots as they are far too tired to respond. Instead you will only get a mailbox full of rude letters from pretend pilots!

[Say again s l o w l y]

Just to show that not all of us have sent rude messages, here's a copy of my e-mail from last night. No response to it though.

Dear Sir/Madam,

I’m writing to correct Simon Calder on his mistaken belief that pilots are only allowed to have 900 duty hours in a year. I can assure Mr Calder that this is not the case. Pilots are allowed 900 hrs FLIGHT time in any 12 month period. This is basically the time that the aircraft is in motion. Duty time is how long you are at work for, report time to finish time. These hours are closely monitored for rest purposes and any airline or pilot should be able to furnish you with details of duty times per year. Failing that have a read of CAP 371 the flight time limitations manual and see how complex and binding the rules are.

Whilst there are limitations on duty time, there isn’t a yearly limit. Having had many duties my self that have lasted up to 36 hours at times, usually whilst positioning after a flight. I suggest Mr Calder checks his facts when he suggests that flight crew are working less hard than any other profession, since my own experiences and seemingly all my colleagues proves otherwise.

I too have suffered chronic fatigue and I was flying no where near the limit of 900 hrs flight time per year. There is a shortage of experienced airline pilots and in drives to reduce costs airline management have kept crewing levels to the lowest possible. Unfortunately this is starting to have an affect with many pilots not reaching retirement age mainly because they are simply worn out and many suffering from organophosphate poisoning. Another hidden issue that has only recently started coming to light. I am certainly considering a career change after 10 years of flying. I have also found my self waking up on a flight deck after a short rest to find the other pilot fast asleep. One thing I will say is that soon there will be an accident caused by this, destroying the excellent safety record we have in UK aviation.

As pilots we work hard, we do get paid well, but no where near the £100,000 level Mr Calder asserts. I do wonder where he gets his figures from though. When I first started flying commercially I earned the grand sum of £14,000 p.a. and even today would dream of £100,000. Could I ask what Mr Calder’s salary would be and whether he feels it should be returned or given to charity in light of the obvious mistakes and conclusion in his piece? His mistakes just annoy people, ours could kill them.

It would be nice to see a response from Mr Calder on this as his assertion that pilot fatigue is not an issue is based on astonishingly incorrect information. I assume this is not normal practice for journalists of the independent?

[CaptKremin]

In my experience, everyone in every profession thinks they do a great job and resents "external" comment or interference. In my experience, every profession fails, at times, to meet its own high standards. In my experience self-regulation doesn't work and, left to their own devices, professions fail to address shortcomings. With these points in mind, I welcome Mr. Calder's article. The venom and bile poured out on this board is just a dangerous symptom of an arrogant profession, which sees no need to justify itself to its customers.

Go ahead and question individual or corporate professional standards if you wish - so long as you can provide the evidence to back up your criticism and make the allegations stick.

That is entrirely different from producing nonsense statements based on blatantly wrong figures.
This is not about pilot professionalism, it is about wrongly reported work patterns - the result of simple lazy journalism, and a lie is a lie plain and simple.

PS on re-reading your comments I have to say - what a load of b*ll*x you wrote! For one thing this industry is not 'self-regulated'. What on earth are you waffling about?

[haughtney1]

Say Again..have you been reading over my shoulder?

My snotty email, is very similar, I don't however have a copy to share..and snotty describes the tone, rather than the content:ok:

[beamer]

The 'journalist' in question is a classic example of 'instant journalism' at its worst. He is frequently used by the BBC as 'rent a quote' (round up the usual suspects Louis - John Nichol, Colonel Bob, etc) and seems rather too eager to denigrate all aspects of Commercial aviation other than his beloved low-cost operators. Ignore the man - he won't go away but he is as insignificant as he looks !

[go_edw]

Sayagain slowly,

What a fantastic letter. I did enjoy reading it.

Well done.

Please post his reply.

[haughtney1]

Arrived in my inbox :)

Dear XXXX,
Thank you for your e-mail about my column on pilots’ working conditions last Saturday. I have received other similar responses, and I have used a representative selection of these in the Open Jaw section of The Independent Traveller to be published on Saturday, 7 July (page 19), in a manner which protects pilots’ anonymity. I have also referred readers to the PPRuNe website if they wish to read more on the subject.
Given the strength of feeling about fatgue, I hope to return to the subject soon.
Yours sincerely,
Simon Calder

[Say again s l o w l y]

I obviously don't rate a reply...:(

[frangatang]

Forget house doctors ,how about GPs,NO weekends NO nights days off during week,top up their vast pay with peddling prescriptions(back handers you see) and are accountable to noone when they cock up! Comfy indeed.

[TangoUniform]

Remember, Lawyers (soliciters) appeal their mistakes, doctors bury their mistakes, pilots die with their mistakes.

[excrewingbod]

For those crews that are unaware, there is an annual duty hour limit for pilots/cabin crew, it's 2000 hours per annum as per the working time directive.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2004/20040756.htm

[rubik101]

say again slowly, your letter was obviously too polite!

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Just about all that has been achieved here is a probable increase in the circulation of the The Independent tomorrow. Perhaps it is to be hoped that this is indeed the sum total of the achievement.
Mr Calder is a journalist of some experience and renown. He is possibly more articulate than many who have corresponded with him. He will most certainly have been quite selective and editorial in choosing those letters from pilots, or others, to which he wishes to devote newspaper space tomorrow. He is in a position to direct this farrago of an Open Jaw in any way his inclinations or bias may dictate. Fiction writers of prose, whether indifferent or excellent, are in a position of great power when provided in advance with the ammunition of their interlocutors. It behoves those who write to them to assume that what they have put to paper will be snipped, censored and sarcasmatized. It follows logically that any journalist involved in such discussions as are underway in this forum can access these pages and may feel quite free to quote from anything he reads here. Such quotations might well appear entirely out of context.
It really would be of no consequence were we, as pilots, to be portrayed as overpaid and under worked; let the public think as it will, it is of neither matter nor import. It would be however, an entirely different matter were an honourable profession subjected to ridicule, and that situation brought about because more were eager to open their mouths than to keep them silenced.:oh:

[Say again s l o w l y]

So we should all shut up and let poor journalism and incorrect facts become acceptable?

No chance. If I see something wrong, I'll point it out. That's probably what makes me so popular with my employers!!

[brakedwell]

>> Just about all that has been achieved here is a probable increase in the circulation of the The Independent tomorrow. <<

Don't waste your hard earned dosh on Saturday's Tree Hugger Daily. http://www.independent.co.uk/

[rubik101]

Danny, S.Calder should know better. He did a TV slota year or two ago when he flew with EZY on a typical day so his comments now are purely designed to wind up the pilot community. I suppose in that he has succeeded.
I wrote,
"If all he can do is simple long division, then make him your finance correspondent."
If he includes that in his article, all well and good.
It seems say again slowly did write him a reasoned and reasonable letter but will it make a difference? I suspect not. The airline industry is becoming increasingly the black sheep of Industry UK as a polluting, non-green industry. If we allow S.Calder and his ilk to write rubbish without any comeback or criticism from us then I am off, to plant trees. We've had it!

[moist]

Rubik101

Spot on mate, spot on.

[Telstar]

Danny

I, for one, am becoming increasingly despondent with the level of debate and content from contributors to this forum. There are far too many posters whose only qualification with regards to being a professional pilot is the fact that they can read the name of the forum. The time is rapidly approaching when the pretenders and those wannabes who are unable to make the grade will be forced off this forum and into Jet Blast where their comments will enjoy a wider audience and more appropriate reaction.


You have mentioned this before. The recent thread on Ryanair pushing back without a proper headcount is a perfect example of the misinterpreted BS that appears on here regularly You spoke once of a forum only for verified Aviation professionals or a rating system. When is it going to happen. The signal to noise ratio is getting to high in here, despite the best efforts of Rainboe!

[Danny]

Ah, but Rubik, you have fired off before thinking it through, which is my reason for complaining so loudly. I apologise if you were somewhat put out by my insinuation that you were not an airline pilot but I was generalising because so many posters are obviously not airline pilots even though they offer their views so freely on this forum. All it takes is for Mr Calder to take any comments he reads here, apply the assumption that they must all be from airline pilots because it is PPRuNe and then, as Cavorting Cheetah points out, take them out of context to make whatever point he wishes to make.

Simon Calder is a 'travel writer'. That somehow infers on him the right to write articles that involve transportation as invariably, that is used when travelling. Because we operate aircraft, Mr Calder then has the ability to put his point of view to anyone who cares to read his prose and whether that point of view is accurate or not is irrelevant, simply because it is written for entertainment purposes only. If he chooses to expound the false belief that we are overpaid, underworked prima-donnas and compares us to the overworked, underpaid heroes of the medical profession then so be it.

However, please remember that you would be much better off and would help your cause much better if you were to think through your responses to Mr Calder before committing them to paper. A polite explanation of where he has made wrong assumptions and inviting him to have a full and better explanation would go much further to correcting any wrongdoing.

[SLFguy]

Not quite sure what you guys are so wound up about...

People in the aviation industry KNOW the article is wrong.

99.9% of people outside the industry......er,... don't care.

Seriously I have never, ever, ever overheard a conversation in a pub, bar, bus, train or plane which involved Joe Public discoursing on the Terms & Conditions of pilots. Never - not once - honestly...never.

Nobody is NOT going to pax as a result of this article.

[pilotmike]

The signal to noise ratio is getting to high in here

Telstar, being a satellite which transmits signals, you of all people (equipment?) should know that a high S/N ratio is to be strived for. It is places with a low S/N ratio which should be avoided.

In you efforts to broadcast a stronger signal, little did you realise that you were adding to the noise!:)

PM

[fireflybob]

Seriously I have never, ever, ever overheard a conversation in a pub, bar, bus, train or plane which involved Joe Public discoursing on the Terms & Conditions of pilots. Never - not once - honestly...never.


SLFGuy, that may well be true but when I meet socially and I acquaint people with the amount I am earning as a pilot they are always quite astonished - they all seem to think we are earning £100k per year!

[SLFguy]

"SLFGuy, that may well be true but when I meet socially and I acquaint people with the amount I am earning as a pilot they are always quite astonished - they all seem to think we are earning £100k per year!"

One suggests you move in better circles. Discussion of salaries is vulgar. :}

Oh I've just noticed..YOU acquaint them...why on earth would you do that..:confused:

[fireflybob]

Because they often make comments like "It's ok for you earning £100k per year blah-blah". I then feel obliged to acquaint them of the facts!

Why should discussion of salary be vulgar? Sounds like a very British attitude to money to me!

I am quite happy with all the "circles" I mix in - perhaps you need to get out more?

[SLFguy]

Woah Bob!...who p*ssed in your pot plant this morning?
We obviously come from different areas and backgrounds so fair enough. It's just I would never dream of talking salaries in a social context.
Anyway my reply was only semi-serious but I hardly think it's vital/imperative that this great wrongdoing, nay this spiteful and damaging misrepresentation, of pilot's salaries be redressed..like I say I doubt if anyone outside of the industry really cares.

[MrBunker]

Danny,
Ref your request to write to Simon in a polite manner. I've just done so and, I hope, corrected some of his misunderstandings from my hotel room in YVR, before back to back with the sim and NRT. Shouldn't be too fatiguing then!
We do ourselves no favours if we launch at a man like Simon who, let's not forget, has a public platform with reach far in excess of Pprune, as he can easily cherry-pick our indignation and make us out to be even more the prima donnas that he suspects us to be.
Let's try and keep our dignity intact.
Best Regards

Edited to say - just had a very gracious reply from Simon. I maintain that we will not cover ourselves in glory by rushing to attack. Enlightenment and explanation are the way ahead.

[ShotOne]

It is important to correct drivel like this -but not here on pprune and not with a rant. If you've posted here, how about writing to the Independent getting their facts straight

[phillipas]

The 'open jaw' bit with excerpts from some of the comments received by The Independent:

http://travel.independent.co.uk/news_and_advice/article2740932.ece

And Simon Calder mentions the responses, briefely, in his 'The Man Who Pays His Way' column:

http://classified.independent.co.uk/travel/article2740940.ece

[Bealzebub]

You know the drill, and its inevitable futility. Much of the safety briefing before every flight defines the word "pointless". If you have travelled in a car some time in the past 30 years, the chances are you may already know how to fasten and unfasten a seatbelt

Yes Mr Calder but the seatbelt in your car and the one on the aircraft fasten and unfasten in entirely different positions. In situations of high stress the normal panic response is to resort to the procedure you are naturally familiar with. Guess which one that is ? The best remedy to this is to submit the individuals short term memory to a briefing that re-emphasises the point prior to take off. For those that actually listen and watch (rather than assume it is all "pointless" in their own case ) they have actually increased their own chances of survival should these procedures be called upon. In evacuation situations time is critical and fumbling for a seat belt catch that is not on the side of your seat is to reduce your survival chances, be warned !

You, like me, may wonder exactly how many airline passengers' lives have been saved over the decades by the inflatable lifejackets that the long-suffering cabin crew are obliged to model in the aisles. The most ridiculous bit of the safety briefing is right at the end: "... and here's a whistle to attract attention". If you survive the aircraft's plunge into the icy ocean, remember to secure the life jacket with a double bow and inflate it only after you leave the aircraft (and, ladies, remove high heels). This scenario suggests you will be greeted by a rescue party bobbing around, patiently waiting to serve up beef tea and ship's biscuits as soon as they've plucked you from the Atlantic after hearing the whistle's shrill call.

No, the scenario is much more likely within a few meters or kilometers of an airport runway. Many airports are near the coast and many runways have overrun areas that terminate into water. It would be the height of stupidity to get into a pleasure boat in a calm harbour without a lifejacket on, and that is after the necessary time that may be allowed to work out how the jacket is fitted, operated and tied. In the event of an aircraft ditching in the more likely circumstances described, only attention to the pre flight safety briefing is likely to have been of any use to you. Again the refreshement to the important short term memory is going to be vital to your chances of survival when the human mind has to go into "panic/survival" mode.

Following a BBC investigation this week into pilot fatigue, an extra line must surely be added to the safety briefing: "Do not use the whistle on board, in case you wake the pilots."

In a survey of 534 members of the British Air Line Pilots' Association (Balpa), four out of five said they had suffered from chronic fatigue, with three in four reporting that tiredness had adversely affected their response times.
"I have fallen asleep unintentionally in the air where you close your eyes for a second and realise that 10 minutes have passed," one anonymous pilot told the BBC. That sort of trick could usefully be passed on to passengers, but is disconcerting when practised by pilots.

Like the 40,000 other passengers who fly to, from or within Britain on the average day, I expect both the pilots on my plane, and those in command of other aircraft, to be fully in control. One reason flying has an unmatched safety record is the way that "human factors" in crashes have been designed out – but if both pilots doze off then anything could happen. The most worrying incident was where a first officer fell asleep as the captain was "resting". Their aircraft (belonging, we are told, to a low-cost, short-haul airline, but not which one) began to turn into the path of another plane, until they were woken up by air traffic control – now there's a high-class alarm call. More alarmingly, the incident was never officially reported. Automatic pilot was not invented so that the men and women on the flight deck could sleep their way across Europe.

I absolutely agree with you. I expect both pilots to be fully awake and in control. In my last 27 years of airline flying that has certainly been my personal experience of what actually happens. Although you say aviations unmatched safety record is partly as a result of "human factors" in crashes being designed out, that is not strictly true. Awareness and constant re-briefing (that word again !) of human factors has been a major promotion in airline crews training and refresher training over the last 10 years or so. However automation in aircraft systems and the interaction with human performance has evolved a new set of challenges and problems. This then leads on to the issue of boredom, tiredness and fatigue.

When a pilot reports for duty, he or she is assumed to be in full control of their faculties. If they are not, then it is their sole responsibility to declare themselves unfit to work. Airlines uniformly say that they would take no action against any pilot saying that they were too tired to work. According to the Balpa survey, one in three said that they would refuse to fly but would fear disciplinary action. A further one in eight said that they would not declare their fatigue out of fear for their job. They say that they are obliged to be more productive than ever, flying up to six sectors a day.

This is certainly true in intention if not always in practice. Few of us in any walk of life are the best judges of our own projected fitness in 6 hours, 10 hours, 15 hours time. Most of the time and after being adequately rested we can operate perfectly well within the requirements of our duties. The problem with all of us is that we tend to be reluctant to accept any perception of "weakness", "unreliability", or "adaptability" in ourselves as human beings.

Airlines certainly do say that they would take no action against pilots who are too tired to work, and to a large extent that is probably the case. However those same airlines operate to ever tightening margins on crewing levels and would be cancelling a noticeable number of their flights were it not for the levels of compromise that currently exist. In fact what most if not all airlines tell their pilots is that they should not report for duty unless they are fit to do so. Pilots having difficulty in achieveing pre-flight rest will be given the opportunity to consult with an aeromedical professional. That may sound inoccuous but since tiredness and fatigue are usually cured by subsequent rest such an "opportunity" would be fairly redundant in most cases. Again it implies that being tired for work is a "weakness" or "illness" or "shortcoming" that either warrants medical attention or the threat of it. In fact most tiredness is borne out of round the clock reporting duties, rapid time zone changes, uncomfortable and changeable hotel rest facilities, varying standards of food hygine, environmental noise interrupting rest times, etc. etc.

In fact most pilots will simply (in extremis) phone in sick as the procedure for this requires little explanation or justification, and the systems are set up to deal with this. However many pilots (particularly in the lower cost carriers) draw a significant and sometimes major part of their monthly salary from the time they actually fly. There is therefore a subliminal and perhaps obvious pressure to operate when they might not otherwise do so.

A junior house doctor at the end of a 19-hour-shift, who works in an industry that also deals in matters of life and death, will look enviously at the limit on pilots' hours, which permits only 900 duty hours a year – corresponding to less than two-and-a-half hours a day.
Now, most people work around 200 days annually (except those of us with the absurd good fortune to be on holiday 365 days a year – 366 next year – and who wouldn't know chronic fatigue if we tripped over it in a darkened youth hostel dorm). So the pilots' average rises to four-and-a-half hours a day. That is the time actually on the flight deck.

You will have received no shortage of comments on this paragraph, and obviously your figures ( perhaps unintentionally) are rather disingenous. 900 hours a year is the time limit for actually operating the aircraft from the time it pushes back off its stand to the time it arrrives and the engines are shut down. It doesn't include the 60-90 min period for checking in, flight planning, ordering the fuel, getting through security and out to the aircraft. Then completeing the pre-flight walk around, on board inspections and setting up the flight deck. Checking the loadsheets and cargo paperwork to ensure the numbers all match up and the aircraft is safely and properly loaded. Then working out the performance calculations and carrying out those all important pre-flight safety briefings that we as crew do before every sector we fly.

Your times do not allow for the 60 minutes or so it takes to do all of this again at our destination for the return trip. It does not allow for the completion checks at the end of a flight which will add at least 30 minutes ( and often more) to the duty period. In fact the average duty day which does not provide for any lunch or tea breaks is an average of 10 hours a day. The flying duty day can be up to 14 hours in the UK and with the use of the commanders discretion can be 2 to 3 hours more up to 16 hours+. Oh yes and even after this the duty ( but not the flying duty) can and often is extended to postion the crew by road or by air to another airport to start their next duty. There is no limit on how long a duty day can be, indeed in some circumstances it can exceed 24 hours ! I bet your junior doctor would not be quite so envious now ? In reality you can roughly double the number of flying hours a pilot does to achieve their actual duty hours. That is around 1800 hours a year. Now divide that by your 200 working days a year and suddenly you average 9 hours a day. Many duty periods run for 6 consecutive days that works out at 54 hours a week. Well above 37 hours to 40 hours the average worker would expect. Then of course there are the numerous duties involving training and refresher training that adds to the workload. Don't forget of course that for the vast majority of pilots these heavy workloads will run around the clock from day to day, sometiems advancing forwards and sometimes retreating. All of this is very tiring and will eventually catch up with even the youngest and fittest of individuals.

Short-haul flying around the most congested skies in the world, over north-west Europe, is as stressful as aviation gets. Yet the rewards are commensurat, with salaries averaging £100,000 a year (or £110 for each hour actually flying) and plenty of days off. A couple of pilots of my acquaintance manage to run successful businesses in their spare time.

I am not sure this is actually as stressful as aviation gets. There are many many parts of the world where the skies are even busier, such as North America. Flying in areas of poor weather and inadequate communications can be more stressful, however that is a fairly moot point. My salary comfortably fits in with your assumption, but after 27 unbroken years of career progression on old style, well paid, final salary pensioned contracts, that does not in any truthful way represent an indicitive average. I would venture slightly over half that figure might be closer to the mean average.

The survey has certainly highlighted issues of concern – but, frankly, you are far more at risk from the effects of operator fatigue on the motorway on the way to the airport than from the pilots in the cockpit dropping off.
A cynical old passenger might conclude that the main purpose of the pilots' union survey is to reduce crews' workloads. Who pays? We do, in the form of higher fares, paying pilots to spend more time with their golf clubs

I agree you are at more risk on the motorway to the airport and certainly the risk of both pilots "dropping off" is very remote indeed. However the issue of rostering that causes fatigue and tiredness is a serious one because it is perhaps one of the few areas that is not progressive in advancing flight safety. Indeed some currently proposed changes to the working hours directives will actually reverse changes that were introduced years ago following fatigue caused crashes. Automation in aircraft cockpits may have advanced rapidly over the last 25 years, but for the human body and mind, evolution is a much slower process

I do not play golf, nor do I get to many of my childrens parents eveings or school plays. I miss birthdays, sometimes christmas holidays, most weekends and any short term appointments. I am often awake when my family are asleep and vice versa. I am sometimes away from home for days or weeks at a time. I am not attempting to court sympathy, simply stating the reality. This is the lifestyle that I accepted when I embarked on this career, and it has its rewards that to some extent compensates for those factors. It is the workload that I and my colleagues in this industry apply that help to keep your fares as low as they are. However that doesn't mean that your ever lower fares should be at the price of your safety, or mine. I am sure you will remind your "cynical old passenger" of that fact.

Your article raises a number of interesting points, and to some extent it may well be representitive of the views of most lay people who naturally know little of the realities of the working conditions that are becoming more and more the industry norm. Cutting costs to preserve margins is part of every business and is critical to the survival of many in a fiercely competive industry. However it takes a serious accident ( valuejet ?) for the wider public to sit up and say "enough"! Even then such occurences are rare and soon leave the publics short term memory. Perhaps that is why these surveys and reports seek to remind the public of the importance of these issues. Perhaps (like the safety briefings) the wiser public will actually listen rather than consign it to the envelope of "futility" and "pointless".

[Banzai Eagle]

Beazle
"A couple of pilots of my acquaintance manage to run successful businesses in their spare time".

You may be the exception to the rule. The future for Pilots is part time jobs on full time pay, many are at that stage already. A pilot recently resigned from my airline for lifestyle issues and more time off with his family. The previous year he had 136 days off, 42 days leave of which 4 weeks was at the peak school summer holidays, 21 contactables (days off to the average pilot). That's over half the year off.

Maybe Mr Calder is referring to him, but when you compare that to Junior Docters, check in staff etc, you can perhaps see why Mr Calder may have got the wrong end of the stick?.

[Iva harden]

I am sure Mr Calder writes what he wants people to believe as, after all, he is a journo. They are notoriously inaccurate in what they write, very rarely is it fact, it is generally their view point on a story, if it does not get a reaction then it is not worth printing, poetic licence taken to the enth degree in this case. He has damaged his credibility now ( what little he had ) so really he has gone and shot himself in his sandaled foot!! His column has printed pilots comments, so maybe that is to redress the balance. I would not want to be in his open toed sandals over the next few months when he flies as I think he will get an ear full as well as extra special treatment from the Cabin staff !!" More tea Mr Calder"? TEEEE HEEE:}

[Carnage Matey!]

Very recently the Independent was running radio ads proclaiming that it was a "Viewspaper", not a "Newspaper", which to my mind simply means it's a load of journos giving you their 2p's worth rather than reporting something in an unbiased manner. What a fine example of the ethos Mr Calder is.

[rubik101]

Just to amplify the earlier post by backtrack, for those of you who haven't read the report; the pax who had inflated their life jackets on impact or earlier were unable to escape from the aircraft once it was semi-submerged. They were unable to dive below the surface of the water due to their bouyancy. Those who listened were able to swim down to the open windows/doors and swim clear of the aircraft.
Did anyone buy the paper and read the article mentioned?

[Oblaaspop]

I don't know why everyone is sooooo wound up by this article!
It was after all written in the Independant which has a circulation of about 20 people, 90% of which are sandle wearing left wing teachers who care so much about the environment that they'd never get on an aircraft anyway!
Now if it had been written in the Mail or the Sun, I may be more concerned!:yuk:

[PAXboy]

According to their website:
The Independent has 1.3 million readers a week
The on-line edition gives 15 million page impressions per month

According to: ABC (Official circulation auditors for UK for all newspapers)
Nov 06:
Circulation: 253,737
Readership: 741,000 – Up 10.3% on same month previous year.
========================

So ... it's not journalists that make wild statements without facts. :hmm:

[Oblaaspop]

"Circulation: 253,737"

WOW!!!:}

Ok then 90% of 253,737 are left wing sandle wearing teachers! So who cares? The population of the UK is over 62 million people (the majority of which can neither speak or read English anyway!).

I can't believe anyone is actually losing sleep over this! I think the article is entirely accurate........I for one am only annoyed that our easy life and enormous salaries have been exposed!

I was hoping to keep secret the fact that I earn 100k per week for flying one 20 minute sector every 3 months (with one hostie sat on my lap and another sat on my face) with 25 weeks holiday a year!!!

As I said, if that's what 'Joe Public' actually think we do then bring it on...it makes us look even more like 'Gods'.

None of this is life or job changing, so lets just get over it and move on please, we're making ourselves look stupid!

[Desert Diner]

oops sarong thread:oh:

[Danny]

The Independent has 1.3 million readers a week
The on-line edition gives 15 million page impressions per month

Hmmm... PPRuNe has 11-12 million page views per month! :ooh:

[galleypower]

A foolish article indeed. Probably just the tip of the iceberg. Too many news articles are written after poor research. If you rellay want to know whats going on you will have to do your own research and then make up your mind. But who has the time?

[GROUNDSTAR]

I think it's also worth pointing out that a junior doctor is just that - ie junior. One day he/she may well rise to become a senior consultant earning £300,000 a year in private practice. A very senior captain may enjoy a salary rising to £100,000 after 20 years service with an airline, assuming that the airline doesn't go bankrupt during that period. Would be interesting to see a comparison of life expectancy after retirement of the two groups.

Furthermore, Mr Calder is a graduate of Crawley Tech College (or perhaps it's University of Crawley these days) which has a proven track record of producing high flying academic achievers supplied to key posts within the cleaning industry!

[Dennis Healy's Eyebrows]

The answer's simple. Put the doctors on CAP371 (or whatever it is now) and work them to the limit exploiting all loopholes just like an airline.

T

[Ropey Pilot]

Groundstar,

Actually the life expectancy of doctors who work to normal retirement age is actually quite low compared to the average!

[pwalhx]

To put Mr. Calders knowledge in to perspective, I personally have never taken him seriously since he did a travel show on BBC1. I forget the name but it was broadcast from Terminal 1 at Manchester Airport.

He sat extolling the virtues of Sky Europe and announced they flew from Manchester to Salzburg and from London to Bratislava and Krakow, seemingly oblivious to the fact they also served both those destinations from the airport he was sat in.

Brilliant journalism.

[StbdD]

How many minutes/hours did the good Dr spend with knife in hand doing Dr things this month? How many tests did he require and how long did he delay the decision before he would consider making that cut? How much risk did he incure personally?

How many people could he kill with one poor decision?

[Say again s l o w l y]

I wish people would stop trying to compare professions based on how many could die by bad decision making.

That in reality has stuff all to do with it. Being a surgeon is far more nerve racking than doing our job. There are very few single decisions we make that could lead to catastrophe, whereas they literally have someones life in their hands on a daily basis.

So enough of the whinging about Doctors and Surgeons. The point here has been about rubbish journalism not about comparing one profession to another.

Oh and one point, surgeons are refered to as Mr not Dr.

[RoyHudd]

It's not purely decisions that pilots make/don't make that can cause catastrophe. There's the small matter of hand-foot-eye co-ordination when taking-off/landing the beast, plus a myriad of clumsy or inappropriate physical actions which can start the ball rolling towards a big mess.

Surgeons also have very demanding jobs which are simply not comparable, and Calder's tabloid-standard journalism which tries to draw comparisons should not be taken too seriously.

(Incidentally, surgeons are labelled as Mr., because historically their job was done by barbers, who were not considered sufficiently skilled to be addressed as Dr.. )

[forget]

Dodgy newspaper articles?

"Those who matter don't care, those who care don't matter".

(Wish I'd said that.)

[jabird]

I'll have to admit that I initially only scanned the article, which happened to be a bit of toilet reading material a few days ago. Considering (a) that the headline was "Let sleeping pilots lie - you're more at risk on the motorway", and (b) that Simon Calder is a well known journalist who likes to make provocative points:

1) Is it really surprising that he is going to take a couple of cheap shots as pilots? Excuse the pun, but shouldn't you just rise above it?

2) Hasn't everyone missed the key point, namely that for all the concerns which might be quite legitimately raised over working hours, the aviation industry is actually incredibly safe. Speaking of motorways, any ideas why car insurance premiums for journalists tend to be so ridiculously high?

I also don't think that the medical comparisons take account of relative risk. If I go into hospital for an operation, I am hoping that the procedure will make me better - but there is also a very high chance that it will not, or that I will catch a superbug, or that other complications will develop.

Pilots might be responsible for the lives of hundreds of passengers, but thankfully most flights pass without incident - and even if there are issues, how many times are these resolved between pilot and ATC, with 99% of pax being none the wiser? The worst experiences most passengers will have to deal with from a lifetime of flying are a bit of turbulence, and maybe a missed approach or two (even that has to be about 1 per 1000 sectors? - please correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't see what is wrong with asking questions about safety - the reality is that when any system is imposed, it very rarely gets revoked, even if the benefits are minimal. As many commentators have quite rightly pointed out, airlines and their staff have to follow the regulations, and they have to take responsibility for their customers whilst they are onboard. But if governments really wanted to reduce the risks of travelling, safety briefings would be at the end of the flight, and they would be about the very real risks associated with getting into hire cars and driving on the "wrong" side of unfamiliar roads, being conned by scam artists, falling foul of local laws, getting drunk on unfamiliar local tipple, and so on.

Perhaps that's another point for another time, but considering how much the Indy likes to make this whole industry the sole global warming scapegoat, I'd actually be quite grateful for an argument pointing out just how safely passengers are dealt with by the hugely professional crews who operate our flights. And let's not forget that the very same Mr Calder also took to the podium to defend people's freedom to fly at last year's Tory party conference.

So before you get the red ink out, I'd remember that the industry has as many reasons to show Mr Calder gratitude as it does to slag him off.

[jetsreams]

Dear Mr Calder,

Please note the following points to help you overcome your ignorance:

1) Doctors dont undergo breathaliser tests or have biannual medicals.

2) An operation theatre does not travel at Mach.86 at 41000 feet in a thunderstorm.

3)Doctors are not monitored through voice or data recorders

3) Doctors dont suffer from Jet Lag

4) Pilots cannot kill passengers one evening and walk off to the nearest pub for a drink with the mates.

5)Pilots often pay with their OWN lives for making mistakes.

[SLFguy]

Jetsreams, (I assume that's a play on words that I just don't understand, but whatever),

May I respectfully point you to posts #87 and #90