Magazine letter

[maxdrypower]

With reference to one of our piloting monthlys , has anyone seen the letter written by , lets say ,,,,, someone regarding the "Would PPL be able to land a 747" argument ?
If you havent read it please if you dont buy the said publication run into smiths and have a butchers , page 29 .
I quote "I have one hour in a cessna 152 however a lot of time on microsoft flight sim x "
It goes on "A flight sim player would have a very good understanding of the equipment surrounding he/she more so than a PPL would and I feel that a ppl with no experience of autopilot would not even attempt to press any buttons "
blah dee blah dee blah
Maybe Im wrong but I feel insulted by this eejit .
Any thoughts ?
Im certainly going to rush out to my group aircraft and look at the things surrounding me just in case I am ever in a "Need to land a big jet" Scenario as obviously light aircraft dont have autopliots etc etc etc , Im not gonna go on , but I feel this bloke is an axxe ,

[Captain Smithy]

I know the publication you are referring to, and I have read this letter.

I cannot understate how much I learned from FS before starting my PPL, it has helped me tremendously with regards to instruments, basic flight principles, aviation terminology etc.

However, there is only so much what is essentially a computer game can re-create.

I heard an interesting story about a flight simmer who went flying with a friend, a PPL - I think it was in the US - and the FS'er managed to fly a real instrument approach very accurately. The PPL was very impressed.

However, to go back to the question "Can a PPL land a 747"... I think that a PPL, with real-world flying experience, would stand a better chance of flying a 747 than a Simmer. And I disagree with the letter author's statement about PPLs having a harder time due to being unfamiliar with Autopilot controls - it's a silly statement I think.

Smithy.

[stickandrudderman]

The question should be:
In the event of an emergency, which one, PPL or simmer, will have the balls big enough to try? I know who my money would be on.:)

[xraf]

Dear Maxdrypower et al

- Pre rant General Elfinsafedy warning "Feeling a bit off today!":suspect:

Of course you are wrong!

Wrong, in fact to feel ANYTHING about this kind of trivial nonsense!

only 3 things should have occurred to you as they did to me when I saw it:

1) Oh well, I suppose It will help to sell their publication by encouraging other Trolls to consider the inane and pointless proposition.

2) As an experienced Prooner and Aviating Mammal who cares what some clown on a PC in his mothers bedroom does or thinks? When they're not thinking up this kind of B:mad:ks they're probably writing computer viruses

3) Smile! at least you're not them!

Rant off

aaaaand.....relax:ok:
Xraf

[LateFinals]

XRAF,

Well put !! The final word on the matter !

[maxdrypower]

No this is the final word , or words, yeh spose your right trolls abound

[Say again s l o w l y]

If any pilot with no experience of jet operation and of very heavy machines was put in this situation it would not end well.

If they could be talked through using the autoflight system, then they have a chance. But handflying. No way whatever the dreams of a flight simmer might tell you.

[Dave Gittins]

Not that this sort of rubbish should be dignified with a response, but as a mere PPL, I did have a crack in a 737 sim in wildest Yorkshire 2-3 years back.

I was pleasantly surprised that I managed to land the beast a number of times without spoiling it ... and found no real prblem, other than it being particularly sensitive in pitch (like a glider I once flew from Dunstable Downs).

[PompeyPaul]

A PPL probably realises he's going to die. A flight simmer probably thinks he's got a chance.

[RatherBeFlying]

If you can find your way around the FMS, autopilot and autothrottles, the thing will pretty much land itself.

But you do have to select airspeed reductions and deploy various stages of flaps. Don't forget the gear, spoiler arm and autobrake. Reverse selection is up to you.

Once stopped, don't just shutdown or the thing might just start rolling off on its own without brakes:uhoh:

[Megaton]

And set up the correct approach, input the weather into the FMGS etc Your best bet would be to work the radios and get someone to talk you through an autoland....and just hope it doesn't get too windy because the (Airbus) autloand limits are less than the organic stick-monkey's!

[Tone]

Can't help thinking I may have a problem judging the flare, me PA28 has only got little wheels.

[Megaton]

I wouldn't worry - there's no many of us on the Airbus fleet at LJHR who can judge the flair either - it's a lottery :ouch:

[FlyingForFun]

Can't help thinking I may have a problem judging the flare, me PA28 has only got little wheels
Several years ago, after flying nothing but a Europa (which is far lower than a PA28) for quite some time, I got back into a PA28. Did a few circuits with an instructor, which were fine, but as soon as he got out, I decided (not conciously!) to have a go at flaring the PA28 at Europa height. The PA28 did not take too kindly to it, and bounced me straight back into the air as if to say "You don't really expect that to work do you? Now have another go and stop being such a prat!"

I wonder if a B737 would react the same if you tried to flare it at PA28 height?

FFF
-------------

[Blinkz]

Heathrow you wouldn't get near too since its next to a huge city where you could kill hundreds more people. I'm sure they'd vector you to an out of the way airfield...manston maybe?

[maxdrypower]

You seem to misunderstand , this chap clearly states he understands airport charts and is confident advice given to him on guard would set him up nicely . All he has to remember ,apparently is disengage the autopilot just before touchdown and put reverse thrust in . London would be nor problem for this proll . so stop doing him down , I have now realised he is probably very very competent . I also sure he is in the professional flight training threads of pprune under the guise airbusboy . If anyone hasnt been to that particular thread I can heartedly recommend having a read of the posts from said airbusboy , most entertaining

[J.A.F.O.]

I wonder if a B737 would react the same if you tried to flare it at PA28 height?

I don't suppose you'd ever know, what with having been dead for eight seconds and everything.

[Knight Paladin]

Interesting to see the number of outraged PPLers out there!

While the chap himself may be a bit of a tool, he may have a point - the cockpit of a modern airliner has far more in common with a modern computer than with a normal club-type GA aeroplane. With some help from an experienced hand on the end of a radio, I'd suggest that a flight simmer with 'experience' on modern jets would be much happier setting up the autoland than a VFR PPLer. OK, if there was any hand flying involved the PPLer might have some advantage, but setting up for an autoland would be a far more sensible idea in my view, with significantly less chance of a fiery ball of death resulting.

I am not a flight simmer myself, so have no vested interest, before anyone accuses me of that!

[Say again s l o w l y]

Not all here are PPL's, some of us have even flown the things described here.

No flight simmer could ever get to grips and hand fly anything. Could they manage the electronics? Maybe, but this is one of those sad arguments that I cannot believe I get drawn into.

No wonder my other half thinks of pilots as the saddest individuals she's ever met!

[Stevemcmli]

Well, a group of low time and student pilots of Middle Eastern origin seemed to manage to fly and navigate some big jets pretty accurately a few years ago..........:confused:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Didn't manage the landing however did they..... Not really much of a point is it?

[Stevemcmli]

But that is the point S-A-S, a decending turn followed by flying 15 feet off the deck for several hundred metres, albeit at 300 knots - doesn't that constitute a round out? All that was missing was the flare (according to the official account of the the Pentagon 757's path).
I believe it is the only real life example we've ever seen - and hopefully never to be repeated!
We can't have it both ways, either its very hard for a PPL to fly a big jet (as the general consensus on Prune would indicate) or it isn't as these dangerous men appear to demonstrate!

[Megaton]

I suppose you're right. I wonder why I bothered with the CPL, ME, IR, MCC, type-rating and line-check when all you need is a PPL. Of course, all the airlines have got it completely wrong and are wasting hundreds of millions of pounds each year.

Your point is.....pointless! They hadn't configured the aircraft, they weren't stabilised, they were going at 300 kts (or whatever) so they were in no position to execute a landing. Once you've actually hand flown an aircraft of that much complexity and inertia, come back and tell us about it. Until then....:=

[rogcal]

Assuming a daytime VMC scenario, I suspect the average PPL could pull it off and get the thing down on the ground fairly intact.
I base this belief on the fact that with a bit of time getting used to the handling of a 747 and familiarising him/herself with the location of the "important" instruments and controls, sufficient skill levels could be achieved.
If you consider that it's not unusual to find flying schools offering training for the regular passengers of PPLs to gain enough skills to land a light aircraft in a situation where the pilot becomes incapacitated, it stands to reason that a person with the skills and abilities of your average PPL could cope with the sudden onset of the steep learning curve which he/she would face in such circumstances.

[tmmorris]

Most of the comments on here come from a background of prejudice - either from PPLs who have never tried it, and therefore think they can do it, or from ATPLs who are insulted at the idea.

As a PPL/IMC (250hrs total) I have tried it, and it wasn't that hard with an experienced first officer next to me. It was on the BA 777 sim at Heathrow. With him talking me through what to do next, the radalt callouts to help with when to flare, and the autopilot (which yes, I could use because I also have experience on MS FS). I hand-flew several approaches, even the first of which was entirely survivable - indeed would hardly have damaged the ac, though it might have burst a few tyres - and then hand-flew around New York at low level, under bridges &c.

In a real-life situation, the 'experienced first officer' would have to be replaced by a voice on the radio. Now that would be much harder. For a start, my friend was able to see the same view out of the windscreen as me. He could say things like 'watch that rate of descent!' when the PA28 pilot in me was waiting too long to pull out of a dive - not being used to the inertia. Even though I had the radalt callouts he was still saying 'flare now!' at the required moments. He helped with setting power; he operated most of the overhead panel.

But I came away from the experience in no doubt that with a voice on the other end of the radio, a PPL/IMC and flight sim experience so I could understand the avionics, I could have easily set up an autoland, and could probably have set up an ILS and flown it on the flight director, and radalt callouts in the flare. I might have bent the ac a bit, but we would all have walked away.

Tim

[Megaton]

with a bit of time getting used to the handling of a 747 and familiarising him/herself with the location of the "important" instruments and controls, sufficient skill levels could be achieved.
I'll tell that to the next 744 training skipper I bump into - it will give him a laugh. I really just don't understand why they put us through all that training when you get the hang of it so quickly. :mad:

tmmorris,

Where do you think airline pilots come from? Many come from a PPL/GA background, myself included. I was flying PA-28s and instructing on Vigilants, this time three years ago. People fail type-rating courses so perhaps it's not quite as easy as your pole around in the simwould have you believe.

[rogcal]

Ham Phisted.

If it's that easy, I'll send my 3 year old grandson along for training with the training officer you speak of and I'm pleased my comments will give him a laugh.

What was so difficult to understand about my posting which I thought made it quite clear I was talking about a unique set of circumstances and a person of average flying ability being able to cope with and to achieve one goal, a relatively safe landing.

I thought long and hard about posting my response to this topic as it is usually the case that whatever you say out of good intent will be jumped on by someone who wants to score some personal brownie points by making inane comments, for whatever reason.

Lesson learnt I think!

[Megaton]

Last post. Promise :) Do you remember when you were learning to land an aircraft for the first time? Do you remember how difficult it was? Do you remember thinking that you'd never get the hang of it? Well, flying a big jet is a whole new ball game again. Flaps, slats, undercarriage (!), reversers, swept wings, v low drag airframes (a 319/320/321 won't slow down at idle power and flaps 2) all add to the complexity. I think we've all dreamt about using our skills to save a doomed aircraft and returning to a hero's welcome but given that even the professionals stuff it up from time to time I still think it pretty unlikely that an PPL would leave much apart from a hole in the ground.

Right. Back to Flight Sim now for me :\

[Viola]

I’m a PPL who finds any flight simulation program utterly useless from a flying point of view except for practising IMC holds etc. To me there’s no similarity at all to the real thing.

However I have successfully landed an Airbus in a proper A320 sim (so neatly I thought the hydraulics had been switched off – I felt very smug). :8

Do I think I could land one for real? :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Very, very unlikely unless the radio luckily had a A320 pilot at the other end to tell me exactly what to do, AND I could work out how to work the radio in the first place AND I could work out how to handle the intertia/swept wing, etc, etc AND the weather was CAVOK.


One of my instructors was an experienced airline pilot and he said flying a modern jet is difficult because ‘they are so powerful they can run away with you.’ They’d certainly run away from this PA28 pilot.

[englishal]

It must be easy, my mate can land the 757 :}

I reckon that a competent PPL or Simmer (probably the latter who knows the "cockpit" layout) could safely land a 747, on automatics with a competent pilot at the end of the RT.

I landed an MD80 in Switzerland once, with one engine out, hand flying it ("proper" sim):}

[gingernut]

Once managed to get a 737 down on 27L at Barton once- no problem.

The trick is to set the headwind to 120 knots:)

[Knight Paladin]

Ham - get over yourself! I fly mil FJ, and yes, it's difficult, and hard work to perform some of the more operational tasks, and yes, landing is significantly different to a puddlejumper. However, I still reckon someone with a little knowledge and a helpful voice on the end of a radio could program the automatics. If for some reason that wasn't possible then a PPL (depending on experience) may stand a fighting chance of getting the aeroplane to the runway in a reasonably controlled fashion. No, they couldn't perform the task of flying such an aeroplane around the airways structure to anything like the standard I'm sure you can - and I'm sure neither can I! But all that is required of them is a reasonably controlled arrival onto a runway, with the crash crews already in attendance. Yes, you might not be able to use the aeroplane again, but hopefully everyone would walk away.

[maxdrypower]

I can just see our hero now , the smelly stuff has hit the twirly things pilots had fish etc etc he is now desperately looking for the Mouse and the radio Icon so he can program everything to perfection , gives me a giggle . I too have flown and A320 at Alteon with a training captain . Yes I managed a couple of landings quite good ones , but all in perfect conditions with an experienced steely eyed fighter jock sat next to me . Anyway if Frank Spencer can land a cessna with an unconscious FI I can land a stricken winged panadol , you watch me .
Ginge , thats admirable, but for fun try landing a 172 with a 120 kt headwind thats fun

[Say again s l o w l y]

So we're talking about an a/c weighing at least 250 tonnes, with a couple of hundred thousand pounds of thrust.

I doubt anyone without significant training or experience of flying would have a hope in hell of controlling it.

The thinking time, slowing down and descent, let alone the configuration and power changes would be well out of the ability of a flight simmer or "average" PPL. Especially given the stress and fact they are in a "real" machine. Smoking hole time.

I tell you what, how about you let me have a go in your shiny fast jet. I played G-LOC a few years ago, so I should be fine!

Don't think so!

[Knight Paladin]

Not really talking about hand flying it, talking about programming the autos! Does anyone actually listen?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Personally I find it very hard to listen to a computer!

I do read it however and I still think it would end in a world of hurt.

[youngskywalker]

A PPL or an ATPL doesnt really mean that much to me I'm afraid, it's just a licence priveledge not any proof of superior skill. At what stage in learning the answers for 14 ATPL's or doing the CPL on a Piper Arrow then a single pilot IR on a Seneca does any of that actually prepare you for flying a large swept wing jet transport? I supspect the majority of airline students who fail line training is because they can't quite reach the required standard to operate the aeroplane commercially, not because they couldnt actually pull off a sufficiently good enough landing where nobody died (the basis of this argument). I believe that your average Pilot regardless of licence with a bit of practice could fly a circuit in a jodel, a saab 340, a B747 or a Tornado.

Standing by for the inevitable flaming!:E

[maxdrypower]

Im not even gonna try and answer that one , I shall however put your views forward to the CAA and inform them that it should be possible for someone to navigate the globe without doing nav , fly a fair weather route without any understanding of met , operate all styles of A/C without any knowledge of aircraft systems , operate highly technical jet engines with no idea of jet theory , not hit any other aircraft or break any air traffic regs with no idea of air law ,just bung them in FSX for a few hours , nay bother all will be well , Sorry old chum but parts of these exams may be a little suspect but its a necessary evil we all have to contend with . How would you suggest a airline pilot should be trained to fly an airliner ? If you can think quick enough and get the CAA to agree I can stop forking out money .:}:}:}:}:}:}:}

[stickandrudderman]

I want you to bring me.......
a shrubbery!

[maxdrypower]

Ahaaaaaa S.A.R.M I shall contact Roger forthwith ,

[stickandrudderman]

I knew you wouldn't be able to resist!:)

[maxdrypower]

Ahh what sad time these are when passing ruffians can challenge fellow aviators at will

[stickandrudderman]

last time I passed a Ruffian I had to have major bowel surgery!

[DBisDogOne]

Thanks for that thought SARM, I've just had me dinner...........

Anyway, to put this in perspective, I've a mate who's 14 year old brother thinks he's Michael Schumacher 'cos he can drive round some F1 sim-type game without crashing! Never tiring of telling anyone who's silly enough to listen how brilliant a driver he's going to be when he's 17. (Boy, is he in for a shock). Shouldn't he be out meeting girls at that age not sitting behind a games console.:rolleyes:

I also agree with Viola, FS is not much help with anything bar procedures and instrument work as far as I'm concerned.

[youngskywalker]

what a load of old bollo@ks. we're not talking about navigating accross the globe, or opersting the aeroplane and its engines by the book, in which case yes an understanding of atpl subjects in met, technical, nav etc is essential! the question was, 'could a ppl land a jumbo?' in my opinion a reasonably good one could get it onto the runway with minimal life loss. An old 742 classic may be a different story however. Aviation unfortunatly attracts kn#b ends who firmly believe they are sky gods based entirely on the basis that they have an 'atpl', I used to believe that too but now I've met so many incompotent ones that I wouldn't let fly my family anywhere.

[maxdrypower]

Im sorry youngskywalker but the answer given was entirely appropriate to your statement . The thread was about could a PPl etc etc you had a specific go at atpl training not simmers or ppls , In fact you never even mentioned simmers? I fail to see your point other than you appear to be ranting over nothing? I take it you are a pilot but you wont let your family fly anywhere , now theres a glaring contradiction . If you are qualified to any level then I can only assume that you believe your training was a waste of time and that you are now incompetent , but I bet you still fly????
Yes aviation is full of knob ends as is , the govt as is the nhs as is every other walk of life , knob ends have to earn livings , if they have an atpl and are employed by airlines then as far as anyone is concerned they can do the job , and as airliners arent falling out of the sky with monotonous regularity I think the evidence speaks for itself , dont you old chap?
Or maybe Im talking a load of old bollocks?

[youngskywalker]

I do wish you'd stop reffering to me as 'old chap!' actually I have a huge respect for anybody with an atpl as I know the work and effort required to gain one, my point was more that I can't see what relevance the licence has to sticking a jet transport on the runway without killing everybody. ok, a lot of help from the ground, a nice day, some skill and a little luck required. I can't see the relevance of knowing atpl air law in this case I'm afraid, old chap. I know many excellent ppl's I'm sure could probably manage it, I also know many crap ones who wouldn't stand a chance, I can say the same for many atpls.

[waveydavey]

This is all getting a bit "who would win in a battle between the Starship Enterprise & The Death Star".......

[rogcal]

OK, let's settle this once and for all.

I propose to get an ATPL tomorrow (they're currently for sale at £50 via a Nigerian flight school), get a job with a major carrier with 747s in their fleet, first thing Monday morning and go land one later that day.

I'll let you know how I got on!

p.s. Naturally, I expect you all to keep quiet about this, as everyone and his dog would be clamouring for a job on the flightdeck when they realise how easy it is!

:rolleyes:

[maxdrypower]

What a preposterous statement, The Enterprise of course , dont you know anything , That is almost like Mig V Airliner .Yes the Death star is the ultimate power in the universe but it has the manoueverabiity of an immobile stationary thing thats lots both its legs and has just had a hit of heroine . It also has no shields of which to speak . It also is very manpower intensive , whereas the enterprise!! Now this has shields , phasers ,photon torpedoes, Green firey things and lots of shields . It also has the agility of the Blue Racer and if everything went wrong it could scarper quick smart then come back when it had got better. It can also be crewed by a team of five including one irritating child . And if you've ever noticed it only has one shift . I could also call for back up as being preominantly american , they have hundreds of starships whereas the DS is but one . Lordy thought you'd have known that tsk tsk

[Viola]

Even in someone is an 'expert' flight simmer I still think they would not be able to think/act quickly enough. The aircraft will be going 6 miles a minute.

By the time they've looked round and worked out how to work the radio (if they can) and ATC have got someone to 'talk them down' they will probably be out of radio range.

Even if they can work out how to land automatically, they've got to do it soon enough, and not panic as they're probably in IMC.

Perhaps I'm slow witted and judging people by my standards, but surely they would have difficulty in keeping up with such a fast aircraft.

[maxdrypower]

I think the word your looking for Gemma is "Tossers" but them I bitter and twisted

[maxdrypower]

Too late Gemma he states he has had a lesson , Experience indeed

[Viola]

A simple way of finding out if this expert flight simmer actually did land the plane would be to ask them about their use of the rudder, especially in conjunction with the ailerons.

They probably wouldn't know what you were talking about.

One of my students said he could 'land a Tiger Moth on the back of a truck' (on flight sim of course). The ensuing discussion about the use of the rudder and how to side slip was most enlightening.

[maxdrypower]

Hey flight sim has auto rudder just like all airliners , rudder pedlas are foot rests , do try and keep up :}:}

[high-hopes]

That article on Pilot magazine (as I said on a previous thread about it on here, and yes how obnoxious and pedantic can some aviation threads be !) is an absolute load of crap.
We have a training captain (can't remember his name) to tell us "fly the approach 5 knots too slow and you'll smash it into the ground, fly it 10 knots too fast and you'll float for miles"

It made me aware that every time I get an easyjet to Luton I am 5 knots away from tragic death and also highlighted the incredible aerodynamic properties of the 747-400 which , on idle thrust and fully flapped, can float for miles if given 10 extra knots on final. Who needs engines ?

Our Captain eventually gave away that "only young alert folks like Will S. can do it" so be prepared all of us who aren't 19, alert and with loads of money to spend at Oxford, we'll never be able to land a jet.

As someone was asking in another thread what GA magazines to buy, I'd probably say none, they're best value when read for free at WHS waiting for your flight to board :) (you know the guy standing next to you is either a pilot or a train spotter LOL)

Unfortunately you can't get landing vouchers that way, especially since you're not allowed scissors through security anymore ;)

[Viola]

Sorry, sorry, you are right. I will try to keep up in future.

I remember the auto rudder from when I 'landed' an A320 sim at Milan.:) (We were told firmly to keep our feet OFF the rudder pedals.)

As I don't use any programe (flight sim or otherwise) for anything but IMC practice I didn't know the pedals were foot rests.:}

[maxdrypower]

yes so there you are , landing stricken jet airliner in minging conditions is a piece of piss , , damn I wished I hadnt spent all that money on training when it was all unecessary

[maxdrypower]

Well your obviously to posh for our own good , I think youll find that landing is much easier if you use the arrow keys for the rudder instead of these silly realistic things , after all our hero thinks thats what a real cockpit ,sorry flight deck has .
And Gemma this isnt humour this is down right serious. In 30 odd hours time your gonna be a qualified steely eyed fighter jock punching holes in the sky , with a bit of consulting here and there . Youll be on your jet liner when the pilots are incapacitated with the green apple splatters. The call will go out and as you make you way forward you will be trampled by Walter Anorak Ponsonby Trotter the third who with FS guide in hand will jump in the captains chair and promptly plummet to the earth . Your quals are useless youd better get used to it

[stickandrudderman]

And she'll crawl out of the wreckage and someone will say, "Ooh you lucky b@stard!"

[maxdrypower]

And paint Spotterus Et Ut Domus on the wall a thousand times ,,,,is that verb conjugated ??????

[stickandrudderman]

I thought it was the accusative?

[NudgingSteel]

I've got a little bit of flying experience on gliders and light singles plus lots, er I mean some, er I mean the very occasional go on MSFS....Plus, as part of my ATC course I was lucky enough to have a go in a state-of-the-art 747-400 sim, and managed a couple of decent enough landings. All the above led me to believe I'd be able to manage the theoretical "fish dinner disaster emergency landing" scenario okay.

Then....a few years later I was lucky enough to be on the jumpseat for an early morning arrival into LHR on a VS 747-400. Broke cloud at about 900' with no wind at all, and b****r me were we going fast or what!!! Suddenly seeing the scenery so close, racing past, just drove home the point that there's really no margin for error and, if I'd been driving, would have just taken the aircraft to the scene of the accident.....

[DBisDogOne]

High-hopes: For goodness sake, it's not 'WHS Waiting Room', it's the 'WHSmiths Reading Room/Lending Library'.