ATPL Information

[WannaBeCiv]

Back in the olden days, when Pontius was a pilot and even BEagle was still in the RAF, the PPRuNe military aircrew forum used to be both a source of information and a place for (sometimes harsh, but amusing) banter. Unfortunately over the years it has become more a forum for the discontented and a soap box for those that have no idea what they are talking about. So I was hoping to introduce a truly useful thread that could be used by many. Also I want some info.

Mods - Please do not move this thread to Wannabes Forum, military aircrew don't read it!!

I am a RAF FJ pilot with just over 2500 hours looking to join the airlines (probably) in early 2009. Unfortunately the usual method of getting info from the other 5 people on the squadron currently doing their ATPL is not open to me and the resettlement people aren't too clued up on ATPLs around here, so I am turning to the Great World Wide Web for information.

I know that as I have >2000 hours I am exempt from most of the exams. Almost everything else I am trying to piece together and much of it is assumption.

I believe that I need to:
1. Do Groundschool. Everyone uses Bristol. Anything else?
2. Get an IR - any recommended schools, any CAA limitations/rules, approx cost?
3. Do a MCC - same questions as for IR.
4. Get a medical.
5. Get a job (for the first time in 16 years)

Funding - Resettlement starts from 2 years to exit date, so can I get all grants etc from that point? Can I use my resettlement grant to pay for Bristol GS, ELCs for my IR and ELCs (next year) for my MCC? I know that from 1 Apr ELCs go up to £2000/year. Or is there a better way to do it?What else can I claim for and what other allowances are available?

RAFCARS / Managed path any use?

Which airlines are positive towards military (FJ) pilots and which aren't? Roughly when should I start applying? I know long haul/short haul has been covered quite a bit recently - anything constructive to add or is it horses for courses?

Any other top tips? If you want to keep it super secret then please PM me, but knowledge is NOT power so please share as widely as possible. Also I am sure my helo and multi brothers (and sisters) would appreciate info - this is not a FJ exclusive thread!

Thanking you all in advance, light blue, dark blue and even green.:)

ps I have tried quite hard with my speeling and grammar, please don't critique it!

[londonmet]

Hi there,

I am not ex mil but I do have some things to offer.....

1) ATPL groundschool. Yes you will be exempt from most of the exams. I believe LASORS (just search the CAA website) has all the info you require. I went to Bristol and found it SUPERB. There were lots of ex mil guys doing the bridging package and they found it very suitable.

2) IR - I believe there is a company based in either Exeter or Bristol that offer good rates for ex mil people. Someone that has followed ths route might be able to help you there. Same with the MCC...

3) Jobs. It depends on what you want. I can't offer help on which airlines are pro versus anti ex mil guys, specifically ex FJ pilots. To be honest common sense would suggest that 10 people could argue that airline X is pro and airline Y is anti. However, in reality it makes bugger all difference as it is the Chief Pilot/Recruitment people that decide that.

Regarding timing - Most airlines in the UK, ie charter types run courses in the new year in order for you to get onto the line by the summer season. This is not the case with every airline but its a good starting point. So this being the case, apply around early summer, airline review applications over the summer and hold assessments/interviews (depending on thier assessment processes) towards the end of the year.

Hope this helps:ok:

[BEagle]

As an RAF QSP(A) who meets LASORS D3.3 criteria in full, you should certainly contact Alex at Bristol Groundschool to sort you out with your theory requirements and exams.

You are also credited the FRTOL practical and written exams.

You will need to do a ME IR Skill Test on something like a Seneca. For that you will need to do some training first. Hopefully someone will let you know what that actually means - and the associated costs. Same goes for the MCC.

The airlines will soon be competing for every available pilot. However, you shouldn't imagine that this will apply to you when you go for interview!

Most ex-RAF pilots seem to have ended up in Virgin, ba, EasyJet and flybe. Depends what you want really. You could always try the Gulf/HK operators if you wish. There is some doubt about whether the HK mob will accept 'fATPLs' obtained with theory credit still.

Have fun - the airline world should be your lobster in 2009! Just don't leave it too late - and make sure you stay in current practice. I've heard of even ME pilots who could have obtained a full ATPL with 1 exam, Class 1 medical and CAA-monitored IR on type being stuffed because they fannied about and left it too late - then found themselves on a ground tour.....:hmm:

[sonicstomp]

Beagle - on your last point.....I assume once you have 'bagged' the licence via the ME Mil Pilot route then there are no 'currency' issues if you subsequently end up on a Ground Tour and then decide to leave??

Or do you have to finish your service career in a current flying appointment?

[BEagle]

The licence is valid for 5 years; any Rating contained in the Licence is valid in accordance with that specific Rating.

Regarding the IR, it's slightly more complex. But basically:

Don't let the IR lapse by 5 years (from the expiry of your last military IR) or you'll have to sit another one with a CAA Examiner.

Really don't let the IR lapse by 7 years or more or you'll have to take all the lovely exams.

Once you've opened an ATPL, if you wish to have it reissued at the 5 year point all you need is a valid medical and a valid Type or Class Rating - I had mine reissued with just a SEP Class Rating, FI and IMC....

Normally you will get your licence and then go looking for a job. Certain airlines may wish you to have a current IR when you apply - but not all. When you do your airline Type Rating, it will include the requirements for an IR in any case.

[goldcup]

SonicStomp- definitely some airlines out there that won't touch you with a barge pole if you are not in "current flying practice." Not sure if the definitions vary from airline to airline, or if it is laid down in LASORS. BA wouldn't look at a former colleague of mine as he hadn't flown for more than 12 months.
I didn't have a current civvy IR when I started earlier this year- BA were initially very reluctant to take me on, but I got the relevant paragraph from LASORS from a helpful man at the CAA and that seemed to satisfy them.
WBC- Bristol is fantastic. I used ELC to do the courses. I had to take leave to do them, although someone from (I think) Lyneham was there on duty and was therefore eligible for travelling expenses (or whatever they are called under JPA). From a personal point of view, I found having the licence in the bag as early as poss gave me more options. Join BALPA now and get yor name down for the Employment Conference. This is attended by pretty much all the airlines and is extremely useful for a. knowing when to apply b. knowing who (and probably more importantly who not) to apply for c. sizing up the competition and d. getting a flavour of requirements etc. As far as the short haul/long haul debate goes, I'm lucky enough to fly a mixture of both. I'm finding short haul at LHR a real chafe at the moment, some guys who have been with the airline years reckon its the worst its been. Having said that, the destinations are fun as are the people (in general). Long haul can be tiring (especially the transatlantic stuff). Other top tips? Interview technique courses a must- there are loads out there, I used Airline Orientation Training. They were excellent although they have a different name now (suggest you google it, if there's no joy pm me and I'll dig out the number)
Good luck!

[SilsoeSid]

WBC,

I believe you can still get a credit for MCC as long as you have >350hrs multicrew. Clearly that would depend on which FJ you flew.
Application for credit to be signed by CO to verify hours.
:ok:

SS

[BEagle]

"I believe you can still get a credit for MCC as long as you have >350hrs multicrew."

No such credit mentioned in LASORS F10. Only QSP(A)s "who have completed an operational conversion unit course on a multi-pilot aeroplane type, and have not less than 600 hours operational experience as a pilot on such a type, will be credited the MCC course.
For this purpose, the following types are deemed to be Multi-pilot aeroplanes:

Andover
BAC 1-11
BAe 125 (not Dominie)
BAe 146
C17 Hercules
Jetstream T3
Nimrod
Sentry
TriStar
VC10"

[SilsoeSid]

Well pointed out Sir.

Having now read F10, (my old memory was from the old tgda flow chart) it seems a shame to read that...

We are aware that some military helicopter types are
operated exclusively by 2 pilots in certain theatres of
operation. Therefore, if an applicant can show evidence
of 500 hours of genuine 2-pilot operation, an MCC
credit will be allowed.

...and realise that there surely must be more crew co-operation between a front seat and rear seat FJ crew, than that which goes on in a Gazelle on NVG or a Lynx tootaling around Northern Germany.

Sorry WBC, another course I'm afraid.

[DownloadDog]

Get your CAA Class 1 Medical from a service MO, it will be a lot cheaper than going to Gatwick for your initial issue. Not sure which MOs still do them, but I'm sure someone will be able to tell you. IIRC the MO at Valley would be a good bet.

As for MCC, I'd recommend Oxford. It's done on a B737-400, gives you some big jet flying and glass cockpit experience. It's a bit more pricey but will help if you go for the BA sim as that is in a B747 and the cockpits are similar. I know of people that got exemption from the MCC and subsequently failed sim checks. The MCC will give you an idea of what airline flying is about.

You'll only need to do a bridging exam and 4 ATPL exams becasue of your >2000hrs. Use Bristol GS.

Good Luck, maybe see you down route sometime....

[WannaBeCiv]

Thanks for all the replies and PMs so far - especially BEagle for not biting. Good work!

I was worried about the keep current bit, as I am in a ground tour! However careful inspection of LASORS (right riveting read) reveals that all you need (in my FJ, >2000hrs case) is 12 hours in the last 12 months (mil or civ) of which 6 needs to be PIC. So even if I dont fly again, my IR will cover most of that - I probably just need to do a few PIC hours on something cheap. Also need a flight with a civ or mil instructor (IR) and 12 take-offs and landings. So worst case a couple of hundred more quid.

Also found that you can use SLCs to do the exams - even if you have used the resettlement grant for the GS. Also you get 7 travel warrants.

Interesting comment on pilot recruitment, Beagle. Obviously the market is very bouyant at the moment - are you confident that it will remain so for another 2 years? I believe both BA and Virgin have pretty much stopped recruitment for the time being?

:)

[K.Whyjelly]

Bristol Ground School is the place for groundschool. It has been some years since I went through the mill myself but Alex,Dick and co got my befuddled brain round the concepts of the subject matter and even coaxed a couple of straight 100% passes out of me!!!

On the IR side of things a lot, if not the majority, of guys I know went through Airways Flight Training at Exeter (sadly bereft of the lovely Pauline nowadays). Totally in tune with what the guys need, time scales et al and they got me through in 5 sorties and a test (thanks :D ).

[WannaBeCiv]

DD

Thanks - I've heard that spending a bit more on the MCC is worthwhile and also heard Oxford mentioned. Do you know roughly how much that costs? EDIT - got off my arse (well figuratively) and looked it up - £2895.

Downroute...:ok:

KY - how many hours were the 6 trips, roughly how much did it cost and how long (in days) was it?

Thanks

[wobble2plank]

Airways Flight Training at Exeter is the place for the IR if your interested. Run by Brian Marindin who is ex RN Sea Hawk pilot and Ex Cathy Pacific pilot. Top bloke who will get you sorted and has trained what seems to be the entire military escapee branch. You can ring him on (01392) 364216

As to the recruiting, BA has just been elevated from 'junk bond' status to investment status, what this means that BA can now invest in new aircraft. There is talk of a 'fleet expansion' although the company talks it down by suggesting that the new aircraft are to replace older hulls. At the moment just about all recruiting is onto the airbus fleet as all LH fleets are being served by internal movement.

Virgin, as far as know, has more A340 orders coming in possibly at 12-14 crews per aircraft.

The BA interview process favours ex-mil pilots as it is very similar to interview processes that we have all been through before.

Good luck!

[Tester07]

Wobble,

PM for you.

[just another jocky]

Regarding the IR, it's slightly more complex. But basically:

Don't let the IR lapse by 5 years (from the expiry of your last military IR) or you'll have to sit another one with a CAA Examiner.

Really don't let the IR lapse by 7 years or more or you'll have to take all the lovely exams.


BEags, I have just renewed my ATPL after just under 5 years with a SEP rating/Class 1 medical. Are you saying that if I don't get another IR within the next 2 years, despite my renewed license stating that it runs out in 2012, I will need to do the lot again! :eek: I'm sorry if that is a numpty question, but dementia does seem to loom on my personal horizon...:uhoh:

TIA...;)

[BEagle]

Licences and Ratings are NOT the same thing.

From LASORS E1.5:

The requirements to renew an IR(A) are based on the
period of time elapsed since the rating expired i.e.
calculated from the date of expiry of the most recent
IR(A) proficiency check entered in the licence.
However, where IR privileges have been exercised in
another category of aircraft (i.e. UK/JAR IR(H)) or
under the privileges of an ICAO licence (Aeroplanes
and Helicopters) or under a UK military IR qualification
(fixed-wing or rotary), the renewal requirements will be
based on the expiry date of that IR.

To renew an IR(A) that has expired by less than
5 years, applicants must complete Section 3b of
Appendix 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240 including the flight
preparation as a Skill Test with an authorised
examiner.


To renew an IR(A) that has expired by more than
5 years but less and 7 years, applicants must:
For single-pilot aircraft complete Section 3b of
Appendix 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240 including the flight
preparation as a Skill Test in an aeroplane with a
UK CAA Staff Flight Examiner. For multi-pilot
aircraft pass a type rating skill test with or
observed by a UK CAA Flight Operations
Training Inspector.


To renew an IR(A) that has expired by more than
7 years, applicants must: For single-pilot
aircraft pass an IR(A) skill test in an aeroplane
with a UK CAA Staff Flight Examiner. For
multi-pilot aircraft pass a type rating skill test
with or observed by a UK CAA Flight Operations
Training Inspector. Applicants will also be
required to retake the IR(A) theoretical
knowledge examinations.

[Seeing Green]

WannaBe,

Lots of good stuff on here especially the licensing pitfalls and tips. As to some of the things you need to do after that little hurdle, here are a few things that worked for me after leaving the RAF FJ world 18 months ago after 18 years.

AFT at Exeter highly recommended. Lots of Civ and ex-mil chaps who are all very good at teaching you what you need to know to pass an IR safely but in minimum time/cost. They recognise that you are an experienced mil pilot but that you will know cock-all about NDB holds and assymetric ILS' in a Beech Duchess (I certainly didn't). Most guys seem to do it in around 12 hrs or less which included a ME Skills test. Two yrs ago it all cost about £4k and if you're still tight for cash you can stay in the RM Officers' Mess at Lympstone.

RAFCARS worked well for me. Used it on my BA app and got a call for interview 4 weeks later. Also very surprised to get a call out of the blue from someone at Cathay and at Netjets so the networking thing seemed to be in operation here. If, for example you are going for BA, it will also allow you to go for interview up to 2 yrs (I think) before your exit and then await a sim date in the knowledge you have that little hurdle sorted. Agree with comment elsewhere that the BA tests are similar to those in the RAF. By lucky chance I was interviewed by the chap in BA who runs recruitment and they seem very pro ex-RAF. There will always be exceptions to this and you do occasionally hear stories of some ex-mil tossers about the place but thats life in a big company!:rolleyes:

Did the MCC at Jetlinx. http://www.jetlinx.co.uk/index1.htm.
Can't praise them enough. Planned to do it immediately before the BA sim. It is done at Cranebank with BA instructors using broadly BA SOPs on either the A320 or B757 - your choice. It seemed a tad more expensive than some others at £3300 but was worth the long-term investment IMHO. To keep cost down agin you can stay at RAF Uxbridge or use some resettlement accom money here where hotels are more expensive than around Exeter. For this or the IR you can use ELCs.

A few guys I know joined some other very good companies at the same time. Never here too many gripes about Virgin for sure. In BA, now that the BARP pension is just about sorted, once you throw in a bit of monthly Air Force Pension, greater salary, time off etc etc you realise that life is pretty good on the outside.:ok:

Good luck with the whole process and feel free to pm me if necessary.

Cheers, SG

[Sloppy Link]

WBC,
Please can you post the LASORS link, I too am in a ground tour with an ATPL(H) issued as a 10 year licence. If the 12 hours, 6 PIC applies to me also, I will leave it until resettlement.
SL

[sonicstomp]

Beags and guys - thanks for the replies.
At the moment my game plan is to stay in the service until my 38/16 point.
I am currently 31 yrs old - have got about 3000 military, of which about 1000 hrs are PIC on one of the approved ME types.
My understanding of LASORS is that all I need to do is the Air Law Exam, a Class I Medical and arrange for a CAA IRE to 'observe' a military IRT on my jet.
My question is therefore : do I wait until nearer my exit date before bothering with my licence due to possible 'expiry issues' when I disappear into ground tours or get it now and just attempt to get into a flying tour to keep it current before leaving??

[WannaBeCiv]

Thanks all. Very useful stuff, I appreciate it. Obviously every answer raises 2 more questions! Apart from the BA managed path deal, I am assuming 20 months before I can work for them and no licence is too early for other airlines - particularly Netjets and Virgin?

Lasors link: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=90&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591
Long document but well laid out and pretty clear.

[sonicstomp]

Thanks guys for all the advice..

Basically I am very happy in the service at the moment but thinking seriously about options if career doesn't move in the right direction in next 12 months.

On the face of it I suspect the more flexible and varied nature of NetJets will suit me more than scheduled airline work. Happy with the 5 days on the road nature of the work as well. Swifter time to command is a big attraction for me as well, I don't like the idea of being stuck in the RHS irrespective of ability for x number of years because of seniority constraints.

I would be interested to hear of ex-Mil experience of life in NetJets vs Airline etc.....

Hope this forum remains applicable to my inquiry.

[Dan Winterland]

An additional bit of info, if you get military credits for exams, a JAR ATPL issued with credits may only be useful in a JAR member state. Some other agencies will not issue a validation on a licence with credits. For example, the Hong Kong Civil Aviation Department want to see a list of exams taken with pass marks. Creidts are not good enough, and you will have to take the relevant exams in Hong Kong. One or two pilots slipped through the net when credits were first being given, but these are exceptions.

Something to bear in mind if your aim is to work overseas.

[BEagle]

Dan - the last time I spoke with the relevant bod at the CAA he assured me that your HK mob had now been put right about this.

That was a couple of years ago now, so I don't know what the current state of play is.

The JAR-FCL ATPL(A) is lawful within JAA-land airlines whether or not it was obtained with theory credits for military service. It is licence conversion which may prove difficult; if you wish to fly for non-EU airlines then check first!

[abbotyobs]

Beags,
If you try and apply to Cathay online, they ask on the website whether you have passed all the ATPL exams, if you cannot tick yes to this box, the application will not go any further, so I cannot see a way around this.
Unless someone else from HK can help?
Thanks

[Grey'npointy]

Beags said: "There is some doubt about whether the HK mob will accept 'fATPLs' obtained with theory credit still".
I've recently been in touch with a Cathay training captain who told me that the airline is accepting ex-FJ guys on the back of the mil bridge package.
Good thread, this - lots of gen rather than the normal ranting.
GnP

[MrBernoulli]

WannaBeCiv,

Bristol Groundschool: I believe, as I have said many times before, that this place is unbeatable for military guys wanting to pass the ATPL exams. Alex Whittingham and team are masters at teaching you how to pass the exams. Sure, you will learn useful stuff on the way to that goal, but you won't dwell unnecessessarily on trivia getting to that point (although the exams do contain a lot of trivia you will never see or hear of again).

I can't help feeling that having ALL the requirements met before applying for jobs makes it much easier for those prospective employers to gauge what/who you are. Without the ATPL in your sticky mitts, you may be viewed as no better than an enthusiastic aviation buff who might get job as a pilot ...... some day. IMHO.

If you are only 2 years from ejecting from the RAF then you have left yourself some work to do. Prepare yourself mentally for some hard work. You need to arrange all the 'bits' that people have mentioned here as well as apply for potential jobs and ramp-up for the whole leaving the RAF thing. You are going to experience stress, I think. I had my license sorted and issued 3 years before my exit date but the last year alone, with job apps, resettlement, renew IRT and Class 1 Med, leaving RAF etc etc was quite a rollercoaster. Get cracking with it NOW! Just because your CV gets out there does not mean prospective employers will come back to you by next return of post. I had 2 offers for interviews from major far east companies nearly a year after making the applications ....... and I had already been in employment with a UK major for several months!

[WannaBeCiv]

As I have now had a resettlement briefing, I will add some info that others may find useful:

1. A gotcha for Sqn Ldrs - 38/16 is only an option point not an exit point, so unless you officially declare that you are definitely leaving, then you cannot technically get any resettlement benefits. Most resettlement staff seem to use a bit of common sense and judgement on this one. Not a problem for Flt Lts as it is an exit point.

2. I think that the best approach for paying for stuff is:

a. Ground school (Bristol gone up to £820, btw) pay using £534 resettlement grant (Individual Refund of Training Costs grant). For the exams (4 @ £62 each) you can use SLCs (max £175/year), as well as claim the travel, subsistence and accom if required.
b. IR - pay using ELCs (£1000 if before 1 Apr 08, £2000 after) - if it is an "approved" cse - I assume Exeter is? Also can claim travel, subsistence and accom.
c. MCC as for IR, but must be in next financial year to use ELCs again. Anyone know if any courses are MOD "approved"?

3. For any time you are away, you can use Graduated Resettlement Time (GRT - 35 days for 38/16 people), so you are "on duty".

Hope this is helpful, it is correct to the best of my knowledge - but ensure you check everything yourself before commiting money or making career changing decisions!

[BEagle]

Airways Flight Training at Exeter is listed as an ELCAS-registered 'provider':

http://www.enhancedlearningcredits.com/mssql/search.php?key=Airways+Flight+Training&act=3&Submit=Go

[Grey'npointy]

For the IR, Multiflight at Leeds are also accredited for ELCs. Trap for players - make sure you go through your resettlement advisors for every step of the booking process or you will almost certainly mess up the onerous paperwork & invalidate your claim for wonga under ELC.

[bayete]

Just got my Bridging exam results today :ok:
I think that I have got all the info on the paperwork required to send off to the CAA.
See list below from Form SRG1130 http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1130.PDF
Has anyone got any top tips on presentation of logbooks or has anyone come across any pitfalls in the application process or had paperwork denied etc?
Regards,
Bayete
Link to forms here http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=list&type=subcat&id=8
Extract from SRG1130:
To apply for a JAR-FCL CPL(A) or ATPL(A) you should enclose the following documentation; failure to submit all of the required
documentation may lead to a delay in the processing of your application.
i) Form FCL 508 (SRG\1106) ‘Flight Radio Telephony Operator’s Licence – Grant or Renewal Application’.
• Complete Sections 1 and 7 only
ii) Valid UK JAR-FCL Class One Medical Certificate. Holders of a JAR-FCL Class One Medical Certificate issued by another JAA Member
State should either contact the CAA Aeromedical Centre at Gatwick or refer to the CAA website www.caa.co.uk for details on
acceptability and mutual recognition.
• Validity must be sufficient to cover the anticipated licence issue date.
iii) Evidence of Identity.
• Passport or Birth Certificate only. Photocopies are acceptable provided that the relevant information is clearly presented and
certified by OC Flying/Squadron Commander.
iv) Copy of theoretical examination result(s)
v) Form FCL 172 ‘Application and Report Form for the CPL(A) Skill Test’ (if applicable)
vi) Form FCL 173 (SRG\1170) ‘Application and Report Form for the Instrument Rating Flight Test’.
vii) Form LST/LPC SPA/MPA (SRG\1119)
viii) All flying logbooks
• Service Pilots are not normally required to submit Service logbooks provided this form is countersigned by the Commanding Officer
at Section 10, but may be requested to do so. All civilian logbooks must accompany this application.
• If actual Service logbooks are not submitted, applicants must forward copies of their Service logbook showing evidence of a current
aircraft annual check flight, end of ME or FW OCU summary (as appropriate) most recent montly flying summary, pilot qualifications
page and instrument rating page. All copies must be certified as true copies by the applicant’s Commanding Officer. A Unit seal or
stamp must cover the Commanding Officer’s signature.

[120class]

I followed this procedure and received my ATPL about 2 weeks later:

Service Pilots are not normally required to submit Service logbooks provided this form is countersigned by the Commanding Officer
at Section 10, but may be requested to do so. All civilian logbooks must accompany this application.
• If actual Service logbooks are not submitted, applicants must forward copies of their Service logbook showing evidence of a current
aircraft annual check flight, end of ME or FW OCU summary (as appropriate) most recent montly flying summary, pilot qualifications
page and instrument rating page. All copies must be certified as true copies by the applicant’s Commanding Officer. A Unit seal or
stamp must cover the Commanding Officer’s signature.

There was a question about my 'annual check' as my unit conducted this every 18mths but the CAA sorted it out.

[BEagle]

Boinggggg - for those who were looking for this.

Interestingly, NetJets now seem to be offering cadetships to the right people. As a result, some who would otherwise have joined the RAF have decided to apply for such cadetships. Mainly because:

The aircraft are less than 40 years old; I'm told the average is < 2 yrs old
The management care for the employees' interests
When away ovrnight, it's in hotels in nice places, not tents in desert $hitholes
The company accepts that people have normal life aspirations

See http://www.oxfordaviation.net/netjets/nj_info.htm

[WannaBeCiv]

Can someone (you there BEagle?) confirm/correct me on my understanding of validity of exam passes etc?

Once you have passed all the exams, they are valid for 3 years, so need to apply for a CPL/IR within that time, otherwise need to do some/all again.

Once you have done your IR and got your CPL/IR ("frozen" ATPL) then they are valid for 7 years. Presumably if you haven't upgraded to ATPL by that time you have to do some/all again?

Lastly the probably unanswerable question - how will this be affected by the change from CAA to JAA for FCL?

Thanks

[abbotyobs]

I am sure BEagle knows all those answers, but most of them can be found in Lasors 2007, if you google it, it will help you out.
I cannot remember all the answers myself, sorry.

[WannaBeCiv]

The information in my post is from my interpretation of LASORS 2007 (sadly I have it bookmarked!) - but like all these documents it is not particularly clear or well defined.

[chcoffshore]

Just read the section, and i think its a yes on both counts.

[MrBernoulli]

WBC,

Once you have done your IR and got your CPL/IR ("frozen" ATPL) then they are valid for 7 years.I don't think that is correct. An ATPL is valid for 5 years from date of issue. I got mine license issued 3 years before leaving the RAF, and 2 years into being employed in civvie street I had to renew it.

Check carefully on the:
Once you have passed all the exams, they are valid for 3 years, so need to apply for a CPL/IR within that time, otherwise need to do some/all again.Make sure it isn't 'have license issued within 3 years', as opposed to 'applied for'.

Be very wary about thinking that you have plenty of time in those 3 years to get it done. You'll get distracted and suddenly find that you are in a stressed out rush! Don't go there - the 'system' can be tardy so do it all at earliest opportunity, really!

Class 1 medical examinations, for 40 year-olds and over, used to be only vaild for 6 months, but someone saw sense and extended it to 12 months (again?). Get yourself a medical to have the license issued, and if you're not fussed, let it lapse (within the restrictions mentioned by BEagle and others) until you're ready to start doing the job apps. Get another up to date medical exam and IR, and you should be 'fresh' to hit the market. Although, you may find an annual Class 1 (and IR?), whilst still in the RAF, to be no burden - your choice.

But start applying for jobs earlier rather than later - you'll be surprised how slow some of the responses can be. As I wrote in an earlier posting on this thread "I had 2 offers for interviews from major far east companies nearly a year after making the applications ....... and I had already been in employment with a UK major for several months!"

[Whoosh1999]

Having left 5 years ago after a mostly FJ career, I can assure you that there is such a shortage of pilots globally, that you should have little difficulty finding a job. Out here in HKG, all 5 airlines are looking for folk - however, as a previous reply stated, do look very carefully at all aspects of a job offer, particularly if you are considering a move overseas.

If you are interested in HKG, check out the Fragrant Harbour Forums - all is not sweetness and light out here at the moment! However, you will find a very large number of ex-RAF FJ pilots at both CX and KA: both are recruiting but both Companies have big issues with rostering and pay.

When I left, there were no exemptions granted to military pilots, but I know guys in both companies who have joined within the last 6 months with recently issued JAR licences.
:ok:

[BEagle]

In simple aircrew terms, you must apply for your CPL/IR within 36 months from the end of the month in which you gained a full pass in the ATPL exams.

Once you have the CPL, the exams remain valid for ATPL issue for a period of 7 years after the date of the most recent IR revalidation.

Don't try to be a clever clogs and hedge your chances! If you want the security of a CPL/IR, don't do it earlier than is reasonably sensible. You may be lucky and be able to claim exmption on the grounds of a recent military IR qualifiction, but Sod's Law says you'll be on a ground tour and might then have to do all the exams again if you go over the 7 year limit.

Regarding validity periods, licences and ratings are different. A JAR-FCL licence of whatever breed has to be re-issued every 5 years. Whereas the different Class, Type and IR have individual validity periods - as do other ratings.

For example, my ATPL is valid for 5 years, my UK IMC Rating is valid for 25 months from date of test, my FI Rating is valid for 3 years, my SEP Class Rating for 2 years and my Examiner authorisation for 3 years - but not the same 3 years as the FI Rating!

No real snag for people in the airlines, as their routine LPCs take care of both IR and Type Rating revalidation requirements. But licence re-issue is easily overlooked; in more enlightened days the CAA BCPL, CPL or ATPL was valid for 10, not 5 years - and the PPL was, of course, a lifetime licence.

[WannaBeCiv]

Thanks for the replies.

I was going to do everything well within 3 years (about 6 months!) but I've just had an offer that I can't refuse so its just one more tour..........:eek:

[sonicstomp]

Ok Guys,

Further question to re-cycle the thread - if you are on a ground tour after gaining the ATPL through the Qualified Service Pilot route, what happens to its validity?

This assumes of course the lack of an annual military IRT to keep it all ticking along....

My guess is that the IR expires the licence will remain extant for 5 years after which it expires, requiring a complete re-issue including exams??

How easy is it to get a job with an ATPL in this situation (i.e no flying for 2 years)??

[BEagle]

The ATPL remains valid as long as you have a valid Class Rating and medical. This can be a SEP Class Rating as a minimum.

Quite why anyone with an ATPL should limit their employment prospects and airline seniority with a chair-polishing tour is beyond me. The airlines don't give a stuff whether you're a Flt Lt or a Gp Capt - first in is the senior!

The IR can lapse for 5 years before things become tense; less than 5 years and it is included in your Type Rating training for your airline type - more than that and the IR Skill Test has to be with the CAA.

More than 7 years and it's exam time again - if you can find anyone who would actually want to employ you!

See LASORS - all prospective professional pilots should familiarise themselves with it and it's FFFFRREEEEE to download from the CAA website.

[sonicstomp]

Beags - thanks for the gen.

I have a copy of LASORS but its much quicker to post here - turn-round time under 10 mins :-) and from a trusted source :-)

[sonicstomp]

How does one renew the licence then?

Is it a paperwork exercise providing you have a valid IR?

What if your IR has lapsed? (Ground Tour scenario)

Or do you need to keep a valid Class rating with an annual skill check rather than an IR to enable auto-renewal??

What happens if your IR and class rating lapses (i.e no flying for in excess of a year)?

(Assuming Class I medical held and renewed every year).

Thanks in advance

[BEagle]

I have a copy of LASORS but its much quicker to post here


And you now expect further 'quick information'?

Riiiiiiiggggggghhhhhhhhtttttttttttttt......... :hmm:

RTFM!!

[Grey'npointy]

If you have done your CPL/IR (frozen ATPL) and your IR has gone past its one year validity, you need not worry, so long as you have held a full procedural green in the last 5 years - link to LASORS Sect F here


http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Section%20F%20-%20TYPE%20AND%20CLASS%20RATING%20(AEROPLANES%20AND%20HELICOP TERS).pdf

Page 18 - Pre-requisites for training

The text reads:

"An applicant for the first type rating course for a MPA shall provide evidence that the following requirements have been met:-

b. hold a current and valid multi-engine instrument rating (aeroplanes). This is only a requirement for an initial MPA type rating and not subsequent type ratings. A UK QSP(A) who has held a Green Instrument Rating within the preceding 5 years is deemed to hold a 'current and valid' Instrument Rating".

Hope this helps.

GnP

[Paul Chocks]

"If you have done your CPL/IR (frozen ATPL) and your IR has gone past its one year validity, you need not worry, so long as you have held a full procedural green in the last 5 years"

By the letter of the text this implies you are good until 6 years after your last mil IRT (as the mil rating is valid for a year - is it 12 or 13 months?). Is this how it is accepted, or is it interpretted as 5 yrs from last IRT?

(I currently work overseas, but plan to return to UK, and the difference between 5 and 6 yrs could be crucial!)

[sonicstomp]

ok, so in theory while on a ground tour my atpl will remain valid and I can apply for jobs as normal provided I don't bust the 5 years on my green IRT?

[sonicstomp]

Further to my last - on a closer examination of the LASORS I believe the issue with a ground tour is as follows:

1. Licence Validity is 5 yrs - don't go for longer than 5 yrs without a valid IR(A) in order to preserve the licence validity.

2. IR(A) is only valid for a year - this will lapse if a military IRT is not flown annually to preserve the military type rating (or is used to help revalidate a civil rating).

However when it comes to applying for a job (assuming military IRT done within the last 5 yrs):

1. Licence is still valid
2. IR(A) requires renewal - iaw LASORS, a QSP(A) is considered to have a valid and current IR if he has flown a green IRT in the last 5 yrs, for the purposes of adding a type rating. ** Not sure how this fits in **

Albeit out of the flying game for a period of time, I believe (hope?!) one would meet the eligibility criteria for an airline job application after spending a couple of years on the ground pre-exit??

Guys,

Does my summary ring true, or am I kidding myself?

In other words is a ground tour prior to exit to the outside world a total killer when it comes to getting a job??

[brit bus driver]

sonic

Check your PMs. It's not a problem

[deltahotel]

Can't see why a lapsed IR would be a problem - yr going do a type rating/IR on employment anyway. (Even if you change employer with a valid type rating you still do a type/IR for the new employer). There is no shortage of commercial pilots in the UK, but there is of pilots with plenty of hours. Hope this helps, DH

[mr ripley]

However practically....

Talked to the recruitment bloke at my company and an issue is current flying practice.

My company recruits only Zero Flight Time qualified peeps onto long haul aircraft and apart from experience on a multi over a certain weight requires current flying practice. The definition of which I don't have to hand.

Airbus for everybody else. :oh:

[120class]

Trainers in my company have commented on the fact that ex-RAF guys coming straight to the airline from a ground tour have found the training more difficult sometimes with extra hours being required.

Nothing insurmountable, but perhaps another reason to politely decline that ground tour!

[abbotyobs]

There is always the AEF, and just try and decline a ground tour in the current climate, good luck!

[Al-Berr]

Has anyone used the walk in facility at Gatwick to submit all the required docs for an ATPL issue? I was wondering if it's worth a visit on the way back from the ME IR school - perhaps less of a faff than sending everything in the post and getting everything countersigned?

Regards,

Al

[chcoffshore]

Walk in service is ok, but only if you have all the documents,MCC, all your logbook evidence ATPL skills test bla bla bla and a letter from your mum!

And it depends who's on the desk.:mad:

[sonicstomp]

walk-in has gotta be better than via post.

Caa lost my application with all my paperwork after sitting on it for 3 weeks. Had to fax everything to them again. Have spent hours on the phone trying to sort it out. Now nearly 6 weeks since being billed two hundred odd quid and still no licence.

As u can tell I am cool about it all
:mad:

[jpboy]

Paul Chocks,

I believe it is the 6 yr option ie 5yrs from having had a Mil Green rating. Think actually that pans out to be 6yrs and 1 month from the date of the last rating assuming mil ratings are still valid for 13 months?

It was the position I was in when I left the Mil having got my ATPL inc IR yrs before jumping. I actually started the civvie OCU equivelant with a copy of LASORs and a letter from the CAA detailing the currency issues. The civvie company required a valid IR as a mandatory pre-employment tick and were happy with the paperwork trail I had.

Good luck.

[jayteeto]

I got out in 2004 and use my helicopter licence to pay the bills. I renewed my ATPL (A) last year and renewed my CAA multi engine IR last month in Florida. I flew 5.2 hours Seneca including a test, which cost me just over £1100 (flying only, you have to get there). Great instructor and great examiner, very basic aeroplane (DI and no HSI) but it worked. PM me if you want a contact. JT

[Harry Peg]

Fellas, this is a great thread with loads of good gouge.

Would someone happen to know the latest on the Bridging Package (BP) rumour? Is 1 Apr 09 going to be the end? If it is, by that date are you only required to:

- have started the BP?
- have completed the BP exam?
- have completed the BP + the 4 other exams?
- have BP + 4 exams + IR?

:confused:

[indie cent]

Bump... ...and

Guys, this whole process takes way longer than you might imagine. (unless you want to put your entire life on hold!) You may need to allow up to 6 weeks leave to complete the process...! If there is any pick-up in the civilian market, it may be limited and competitive. You will need your frozen ATPL ready to go.

It may be the case that the courses you need begin to book up or that you get an ooa that messes up your plans. You may want to consider looking outside. In the current climate, I would recommend you are ready to jump as there may be a push!

In short, a word to the wise to get your s%£t in one sock, before it is too late.

If you want to keep things simple and the costs down, I would recommend the well trodden path through the superb Bristol GS and equally awesome Airways Flt Trg in Exeter.
They speak our language and know exactly what's needed - even filling in the forms for you and faxing them to Gatwick when you forget them! Doh!

Thanks to the above, and best of luck to all.

ic

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Can someone provide a bit of an "idiot's guide" to go from zero to ATPL? I'm sitting on 1500-odd FJ hours, still a few years away from planning to jump, but I literally don't know where to start. What do I do first?

[BEagle]

1. No-one is going to hold your hand towards a job in the civil world - it's dog-eat-dog these days. Fact.
2. See LASORS 2008 | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175&pagetype=68&gid=780) and download the relevant sections, particularly Section D.
3. Accept the fact that, irrespective of your FJ time, anyone with the same time on ME aircraft will have a head start. 'ME' implying multi-engined multi-pilot aeroplanes (for simplicity) - 2 stick time in a Tornado is not 'multi-pilot' time as far as the CAA is concerned.

Basically, once you have 2000 hrs TT of which 1500 are PIC, things become easier for non-ME aeroplane pilots. You have to do a bridging 'theory' course and sit 5 exams, then do some flying on an MEP Class aeroplane to qualify for an IR and Class Rating.

LASORS explains all - and is free to download.

[MrBernoulli]

To one and all yet to start their ATPL, BEagle's advice is succint but right on the nail. It was he who helped greatly in negotiating the current military dispensations with the CAA.

LASORS might be a pain in the arse to read and absorb, but you will be helping yourselves by doing so. Start now! The process of gaining a license is bureaucratic (form-filling galore, as well as beasting your wallet), requires some hard work (those blasted exams :rolleyes: ) but it is substantially less of a hurdle than before the current dispensations (I did it in the previous, hard iteration :} ).

Again, I say start now! It will take you far longer than you estimate (the rest of life gets in the way) and you will want to start testing and searching in the job market well before you actually leave the mob. Having, say, most of the ATPL requirements complete, but license not actually issued, is no susbstitute for actually having the damn thing in your hands - you won't get a second glance in the market without it.

I can vouch for Bristol Ground School, http://www.bristolgroundschool.eu (http://www.bristolgroundschool.eu/groundschool/main.aspx) , as mentioned elsewhere in this thread - they know what you need as a military aviator to get through the system. Alex Whittingham, who runs BGS, is an ex-RAF pilot himself, with a brain the size of a planet, and if his school can't get you through the exams, it is unlikely anyone could.

Your share of the MoD budget isn't going to get any better - make sure you are ready to jump (or cope with being pushed .....) and get the license done asap. Seriously.

Edited to add: Bristol.gs (http://www.bristolgroundschool.eu/groundschool/licence_uk_military_pilots.aspx)
This is a useful summary of the requirements for military pilots. Be sure to get the nitty-gritty from LASORS and the CAA for your own circumstances.

[Wirbelsturm]

For those looking at time frames.

Verrrrry tentative from BA will be possible recruitment towards the back end of 2011. Then looking at between 150-200 pilots.

The above from the training department rumour mill!

Also bear in mind that the hold pool had the water emptied and those unfortunate enough to be swimming at the time will have to re-apply.

Not sure where RAFCARS stands at the moment but I used it a fair few years back and it worked brilliantly for me.

Best of luck.

[A and C]

The state of the civil market is dire at the moment and I can't see it improving for some time however the sooner you get the fATPL in your hot sticky little hand the better.

Once you do have the fATPL you should remember that the two bigest Lo-Co's in the UK have taken the selling of airline seats to mean they sell all the seats on the aircraft except the captains!

Both the big Lo-Co,s make a lot of money by selling the young and hopefull's of this world type ratings and line training, once the young Lady or Gent has the contracted hours under the belt the airline puts them in a hold pool, pays them only by the hour for flying and uses them as little as they can because they make more money training the next victim!

The fact that someone who is ex-RAF is most likely to be a very sharp pilot cutts no ice with the bean counters..............they can make more money from a 200 hour cadet.

Things are changing slowly because the banks are now not giving £100K loans to people for pilot training because of the number of people who are now insolvent due to the actions of the Lo-Co airlines but it will be some time before the pilot market recovers from this "pay to fly" stupidity.

[sonicstomp]

Having digested LASORS again as my ground tour looms quickly in the windscreen - I confess to being a little confused with respect to the whole IR currency that a military green rating gives you.

quote - "A QSP in current flying practice on any military aircraft type (aeroplane for re-issue of aeroplane licence and helicopter re-issue of helicopter licence) may have their licence re-issued by holding a valid medical certificate appropriate to the licence being re-issue." - LASORS 2008

My licence will expire in 2013 (during my staff black-hole) - as a consequence, I will NOT be in current fg practice and therefore UNABLE to renew my licence!!

This seems at odds with earlier statements to the effect that I get 5 yrs from my last mil IRT ! ?

Anyone got a view on this contradiction?

All replies appreciated.:)

[Black 'n Yellar]

Sonic
Having just been through the IR treadmill, the way I understand it is as follows: When you complete the IR your military IR will keep it current. From the day your military IR expires, the clock starts ticking on your civy IR and you then have 5 years before you need to do a renewal which is 1 trip in a plane for some more fun NDB holds! I believe that the re-issue of the license itself is simply a matter of coughing up yet more money to the CAA, and it should't matter if you are current or not as anyone can renew a license any time.
I may be wrong, but in 3 weeks we may all be out of flying practice anyway!!

[Lima Juliet]

Sonic

Get yourself spammed up to fly a bug smasher and then keep your licence ticking over. Lots of cheap flying to be had here:

RAF Flying Clubs' Association (RAFFCA) - Homepage (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafflyingclubs/)

LJ :ok:

[sonicstomp]

B&Y - thanks. There is something called the 60 day rule which means you cannot apply for a licence renewal until 60 days prior to licence expiry (LASORS)

As for the 5 year period - the licence is only valid for 5 years and in addition to having a valid medical (appropriate to licence), LASORS talks about a valid Certificate of Test, Certificate of Experience or Certificate of Revalidation for any type/class rating that has not expired by more than 5 years.

I guess it boils down to whether the military IR counts as one of the Certificates above for a QSP - in which case you get 5 yrs from last Mil IRT. Not sure. :confused:

Of course if you are in current mil fg practice - you are squared either way for the renewal. My concern is not being in current fg practice at the time of the 60 day renewal window - in which case I may have to try and get an SEP rating and get back in a Cessna :(

[BEagle]

Contrary to earlier assurances from the CAA, I have just seen this from Flight Crew Licensing:

The regulation that brings Part-FCL into force will include provision for military pilots to be given credit for military training and experience when making application to the national authority (of the State for whom they serve) for EASA licences. However, the terms must be established by compiling a report that compares the military training with Part FCL and identifies the additional training and experience required for military pilots to comply with Part FCL. This report, together with the proposed crediting terms must be agreed by EASA. There is therefore no guarantee that the existing UK terms for Qualified Service Pilots as set out in LASORS will continue beyond the date that Part-FCL becomes mandatory.

The €urocratic lunacy of EASA might pose a risk as FCL state; however, this is far from certain. So I wouldn't panic - but I would recommend anyone capable of doing so to secure an ATPL before April 2012 when this €uro-stupidity comes into effect.

However, military pilot accreditation was primarily introduced as a recruiting and retention incentive. So it behoves whoever is left at whatever passes for Learning Command these days to ensure that the 'report' is well crafted and not subject to the usual British reserve or understatement.

But, in an era when even experienced ME co-pilots are having to 'hours build' on spamcans because they don't have the 70 hrs PIC required for CPL issue, I can only hope that the current LASORS D3.3 terms are not eroded.

[MrBernoulli]

And those of us with national (CAA) ATPLs will be required to part with wonga, and change those licenses for EASA ATPLs as part of the great bureaucratic bull**** that is 'Part-FCL'. Ho-£$%^&-hum! :*

[indie cent]

Bump... Guys this is what you need.

Mods, Could I request this thread becomes a sticky? We're in uncharted territory for military pilots. There's the triple whammy of redundancies, licence changes and a recession outside. Clearly this thread could help resettlement.

Licence changes:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/432844-military-licence-exemptions-beyond-april-2012-a.html

Thank-you Alex for the heads-up to licencing changes. Bristol Ground School are awesome and totally understand the military pilots' requirements.

Bristol.gs (http://www.bristolgroundschool.eu/groundschool/main.aspx)


Airways Flt Training equally understand the massively varied requirements that individual service pilots needed to make the jump.

Airways Flight Training - Exeter (http://www.airwaysflighttraining.co.uk/)

Check post #62 for some timescales.


**Finally, it may be worth knowing that you can no longer get an initial issue Class-1 CAA medical from a friendly service doc. It costs over £300 and must be done at the CAA HQ, Gatwick.**

Good luck and don't leave it too late. The selection process for airlines can be pretty time consuming - you may wish to allow for this.

iC

[sonicstomp]

bump!

I thought this might be of interest:

I recently emailed the CAA iot get some clarification wrt licence renewal with EASA around the corner and a ground tour on the horizon! I was concerned about renewing my licence under EASA with expired ratings (LASORS give you up to a max of 5 yrs expiry on these for licence re-issue).

Here is what they sent back:


You currently hold a JAR-FCL ATPL(A).
New European regulations are expected to come into force with effect
from 8th April 2012. As part of the transitional arrangements within the
proposed legislation all JAR-FCL licences will become EASA (European
Aviation Safety Agency) licences on 8th April 2012. EASA licences are
non-expiring. Licences that were issued as JAR licences will have to
replaced with EASA licences by the National Aviation Authorities (such
as the CAA), but the existing JAR requirements for renewal will not
apply.

However, the existing QSP arrangements will also cease on 8th April
2012. There is provision under the new European legislation for credit
to be given for military training and experience but this must be
justified by comparing the military training with the new European
requirements and providing a report that is acceptable to the European
Aviation Safety Agency. It is not clear at this time whether that will
be achieved by April 2012. There may therefore be a period of time
during which no credit can be given for military flying, including being
in current flying practice.

I would suggest that you should apply for your licence to be replaced by
an EASA licence as soon as possible after 8th April 2012, but it is
unclear at this time what the situation will be if your licence has no
current and valid ratings when you apply for replacement. Hopefully we
will resolve this (and many other matters) with EASA before April 2012.
:ugh:

[Farfrompuken]

SS,

from what I understand, if you get a SEP Class Rating on your ATPL and keep flying GA types, then your licence will still be 'current and valid'.

All you'd need then for gainful employment (i.e commercial jets) is a Type Rating which hopefully your next employer will pay for.

Again, just my understanding.......

[sonicstomp]

farfrom - my plan too methinks - can't afford to be in a situation where I can't renew the licence!

[Farfrompuken]

I'm suspecting there won't be too much urgency for the RAF to pursue accreditation for QSPs to gain EASA ATPLs as I'm pretty sure there is concern over future Pilot manning levels; I don't, however, see much to encourage people to consider remaining beyond option points or not PVRing.

FRI anyone?? :rolleyes:

[sonicstomp]

Of course if you PVR now you immediately lose all your fg pay :uhoh:

[partyboynew]

Could somebody please help me. This business of military liceince exemptions (or lack thereof) after Apr 2012...

Does this apply only to those with 2000+ hrs who are trying to gain the 'free' ATPL?

what about those with less than this who do the full groundschool package and then finance an IRT in a suitable twin.

doubtless you can guess that I fall in the latter bracket with around 1500 total, 400 captain. 1300 heavy jet.

I am just about to start an ATPL course but I think its a tall order to do the whole lot and an IRT before Apr 2012. what happens if I don't? Am I then in the same position as a guy off the street with no flying experience? Should I therefore save my pennies, not bother and look for a job at truckmaster?

thanks in advance

[BEagle]

partyboynew, the military accreditation issue has been pointed out to 22Gp fairly positively. Several times, I can assure you! The CAA's view is that, basically, if the UK military wishes to apply for accreditation to support recruiting and retention, MoD must produce a case for the CAA to shove under EASA's €urosnout.

The CAA cannot be expected to do MoD's groundwork - MoD must create the case!

Hark, you say, why do we need such a recruiting and retention incentive when Foxy and the Tory Boy have just slashed our requirements for pilots?

Because that's only true in the short term. If MoD doesn't sort this out now, then when the civil pilot surge requirement does arrive, many military pilots will simply bang out there and then, rather than being retained until they qualify for the 'get your licence from stores' point. Why stay longer than you have to, if to do so doesn't grant you any extra exemption - and disadvantages you on airline seniority lists?

There must be some ex-Nimrod and ex-Harrier pilots who can be allocated the task of sorting all this out, shirley?

[partyboynew]

BEagle, that all makes sense (god knows if I had half a second of spare time I would take it on myself) however it doesnt quite answer my question;

What about those who wish to do the full ATPL course (all the exams) who aren't in the bracket for the 'free' one.

Is there still a deadline of Apr 2012 for the military flying to count towards a frozen ATPL? (assuming that the RAF does not submit a valid case to EASA).

Im being purely selfish here, I have 1500 hours total. I'm not going to get 2000 and 1500 P1 for a long while. So that means the full bristol course plus an IRT at considerable expense to me - I have resigned myself to this. Do I need to be able to complete all of that before Apr 2012? Or is that deadline only an issue for those with 2000 hrs+ who want to get out of doing all the exams?

ta

[Alex Whittingham]

I can tell you that 22Gp are on the case, and that a small team has been set up to liase with the CAA and to ease the transition to EASA rules.

The CAA's view of who should staff this is not mine. Fair enough, ten years ago the MOD set the current system up as a 'retention incentive', and the onus on producing the case for military exemptions and liasing with the CAA clearly lay with the MOD at that point, it was their initiative. The current situation is different, Part FCL does not say 'the national Authority may present a case if it feels like it...' it says 'the responsible Authority shall credit military experience...'. To my mind that puts the onus squarely on the belgrano, certainly working with MOD, but not shuffling the whole task off onto them.

[BEagle]

Alex, I'm gad to hear that a 22GP team has been established!

The JAR-FCL wording was:

The knowledge, experience and skill gained in military service will be credited towards the relevant requirements of JAR–FCL licences and ratings at the discretion of the Authority. The policy for the credit given shall be reported to the JAA.

The EASA part-FCL wording states:

The knowledge, experience and skill gained in military service shall be given credit for the purposes of the relevant requirements of Annex I in accordance with the elements of a credit report established by the Member State in consultation with the Agency.

So, the CAA could argue that it is up to the Member State, not specifically the NAA, to sort out the 'credit report'.....

No matter - it seems that 22Gp are on the case, which is certainly reassuring.

[Ken Scott]

Beagle,

Is there any truth in the rumour that under EASA rules mil crews operating ac as GAT (mil or civil registered) will need to hold a civil licence?

[BEagle]

No.


The EASA 'basic regulation' (216/2008) clearly states:

2. This Regulation shall not apply to:

(a) products, parts, appliances, personnel and organisations referred to
in paragraph 1(a) and (b) while carrying out military, customs,
police, search and rescue, firefighting, coastguard or similar
activities or services. The Member States shall undertake to
ensure that such activities or services have due regard as far as
practicable to the objectives of this Regulation;

[Bert Angel]

Thank you very much!

[nice castle]

As I understand it, drawing a parallel between all the training and enabling objectives of all military flying courses from EFT all the way through to OCF or equivalent, and the civil training courses forms part of the necessary work to show EASA that military accreditation is plausible. The onward politics once that little lot has been done, well, that's nothing I have any knowledge about.

It's great news that the work is ongoing, but I'm not sure that all the DSAT compliant course paperwork is swept up and in place for all courses in order to make the process (relatively) straightforward. I would imagine that this would provide a grand impetus for a good rodding out of the paperwork side of most trg courses. Not a small job, but not insurmountable, either.

I don't envy those with the job, but am most grateful for their collective efforts in advance! :ok:

It will be interesting to see if the politics of retention cloud the water and remove the common sense system that is currently in place. Let's hope not, eh?

[Alex Whittingham]

Hi BEagle, the text you quote is from a 'draft draft' of Part-FCL which the CAA are bandying about. EASA will not release this document because they say the wording has not been finalised. I'm a bit cautious about drawing any inferences from the extract without seeing the whole document. It only needs a line in 'Definitions' to say the term 'Member State' is defined as 'the competent Authority of the Member State' and the meaning changes. The draft published by EASA, which I was quoting from memory, says:

The knowledge, experience and skill gained in military service shall be credited towards the relevant requirements of Part-FCL in accordance with the principles of a credit report developed by the competent authority and approved by the Agency.

I guess we'll have to wait and see...