FI course abroad and Aerofan (Madrid)

[Epic_mg]

Hey All,

Im considering Aerofan's FI course sometime this summer and would appreciate any feedback people might have with regards to the flight school and especially their FI course.

My other concern involves the possibility of FI employment back in the UK after completing the course in foreign climes, has anyone had any difficulties with FI employment due to JAA training overseas?

Once again any feedback would be appreciated.:)

Many Thanks

Epic_mg

[apruneuk]

Schools that run the FIC will generally try to recruit people that they have trained, mostly for continuity. However, at the moment there is little new blood coming through the system so schools can't afford to be too picky.

I did an IR at Aerofan a couple of years ago and met a German chap who was doing the FIC while I was there. He got a job straight after qualifying with a school at Kemble. I spoke to him recently and he is still there.

Oh, and my Spanish IR didn't prove to be a barrier to me getting a job flying single pilot IFR around Europe, either!

[Jamongris]

There has been quite a discussion about Aerofan in the Spanish forum section, with widely varying opinions. I have no personal experience of them but see their planes flying a lot from Cuatro Vientos and they all looked well maintained from the outside.

I personally did my PPL with aeromadrid and was very happy with them, and am slowly continuing the modular course through them. The only thing I'm not sure about is if they do FI courses in English.

If you do come to Madrid to do it, I'd be happy to meet up for a beer anyway :ok:

[mason]

hi im considering doing the FIC course in aerofan in febuary can you give me and advice or feedback youve received about the place?it would be much appreciated!

[eph6]

I did my FIC with aerofan. My experience was extremely positive . i loved the location, Price, aircraft, [10 hours of bonanza flying included in the price] not to be sniffed at. Excellent instructor. friendly, flexible....dunno what else to say. wow i'm starting to miss Madrid now.
PM me if you need anything else.
I've completed my flying training from nz, usa, uk, ireland and Spain.
Spain I would rate as the top and Ireland would rank lowest in terms of ticking the boxes.

[gijoe]

So did you have to go and do all of the exams to get your FI(R) rating at Aerofan?? I'd love there to be some other way of demonstrating my commercial level knowledge of flying rather than sitting the exams.
G

[eph6]

no exams. just a demonstration to the examiner of your teaching knowledge of theory and lessons.,,, then jump into the right hand seat of your bonanza and show off your instructing ability. Viva Espana

[gijoe]

Thanks for the reply.

Just to be clear about this...

So no need to do any exams prior to the course?

And no exams during the course?

G :confused:

[JUST-local]

You must complete all the pre-entry requirements before attending an approved course.
Lasors section H.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SECTION%20H%20.pdf

[StrateandLevel]

come on, they are talking about Spain! No LASORs there.

[BlueRobin]

LASORS is derived directly from JAR-FCL with additional national differences. As far as the FI pre-reqs go in LASORS, they are wholly JAR-FCL.

[StrateandLevel]

Precisely, but that does not mean other countries share the UKs desire to comply with them.

Spinning is mandatory on an FI Test but they don't in Spain. Instrument approaches at an aerodrome are mandatory in an IR Skill Test but the Spanish don't always do them, so all is not equal in EU land.

[TheOddOne]

Just to be clear about this...

So no need to do any exams prior to the course?

And no exams during the course?


There are shed-loads of exams to do prior to the course!

You must have demonstrated knowledge to CPL level prior to starting the course which effectively means sitting the CPL exams.

There are no additional written exams during the course, but instead there are assessments of your performance, not actually graded or marked, but the school doing your course will want you to pass the test to support their reputation, so they're not going to let you take it unless you have a chance of succeeding. A good thing to ask of any school is their pass rate, with written proof.

I work with several Spanish instructors. They all (AFAIK) took their courses in the UK, firstly to enhance their aviation English and maybe also because it might enhance their job prospects as an instructor...

TheOddOne

[LEVC]

3 APP are mandatory for the JAR-FCL IR test , and it is complied with also in Spain, did it for my test as all students in the FTO in which i did my training.

About the pre entry requirements, i can tell you at least 2 schools in UK in which this requirement is substituted by a litle chat with the owner, what do you think about it STRATEANDLEVEL?, does that make of UK the far-west end of JAR-FCL land? , please be a bit respecful and do not start talking so lightly about other nationalities.

About the spinning in Aerofan´s FIC, the issue has been corrected and it´s covered.

[LEVC]

By the way, LASORS are not the exact copy of JAR-FCL, there are things which differ from the JAR´s.

[StrateandLevel]

About the pre entry requirements, i can tell you at least 2 schools in UK in which this requirement is substituted by a litle chat with the owner,
Its not what I think; if the CAA can't find logbook evidence of the pre-entry test they are likely to reject the application. I have seen it happen.
In any case, no worthwhile FIC instructor will run a course if he doesn't know what material he is dealing with.

[LEVC]

My point is that you are mixing up two different issues here, i think as you do that starting the FIC course without complying with JAR-FCL´rules is wrong, in Spain, UK or anywhere, that said please do not atribute this kind of behaviour to any specific nationality, which can be found ANYWHERE in JAR land, and is of course to be avoided, denounced and erradicated.

[llanfairpg]

Anyone any idea how much the PPL course at Madrid is please?

[LEVC]

I wouldn't recomend you do your PPL in Spain, the differene in price is not that big , at least not proportional to the savings of doing an FIC or other modular courses (Spain vs UK).

I would check USA prices, with the savings you still can fly some hours back in UK to polish up your skills and get used to flying in UK airspace.

If you do not mind learning some french you can check prices at french aeroclubs (non profit organizations, so usually cheaper), you'll save quite a lot of money.

Portugal could also be a good option.

Good luck with your training

[LH2]

Wondering how the conversation went from FIC to PPL... :confused: but I will answer in anticipation of your post and mine being moved back to whichever thread they were originally intended for.

I wouldn't recomend you do your PPL in Spain, the differene in price is not that big

Even if hour for hour it were not that big (which at a saving of 30-40% I would say it is), for most of the year the weather affords greater continuity which generally translates into reduced hours and reduced ancillary costs (accom, food, etc.)

The real snag appears to be all the bureaucratic rubbish that appears to go with it, even if you can speak enough Spanish to sit the exams (they are only available in that language).

If you do not mind learning some french you can check prices at french aeroclubs

Again, the difference in price is not significant compared to Spain. In this case, you have to factor the higher fuel costs in France compared to the generally lower admin costs of aeroclubs. In this case, apart from good weather (in the South) you also have the advantage of a well developed GA scene and extremely competent and helpful ATC. Not sure what it's like on the bureaucratic front, although I have done training in France, it's gone on my UK licence.

I would check USA prices

I'm sure flying stateside must be an interesting experience, appart from affordable, but unfortunately visiting the US has become so backwards that I do not even go there for work these days, let alone recreationally. Getting a PPL is not a big deal and it hardly justifies travelling halfway across the world for it.

Portugal could also be a good option

Any specific info / experience with it? Not much found here on Pprune.

In my opinion, the way forward is more UK registered facilities based in Southern Europe. To my knowledge, presently there is only one of them. This would combine nicely the advantages of weather and lower operating costs with the relative straightforwardness of the UK system.

HTH

[LEVC]

LH2 were you training people at Aix-en-provence?

In a french aeroclub i have flown a D120 for 75 euros an hour, which i can assure you is a bargain compared to the cheapest price you'll get in Spain.
Again this will only be a viable option if you don't mind learning some french and being flexible about dates and location.


There is a British PPL school with spanish base offering PPL traning under UKCAA, if you do a search of old threads you'll fin info about it (2 years old thread i would say).

[VNA Lotus]

hello LEVC,

when you say you have flown at Aix en Provence, do you mean as a FI ??

I ask you that because my plan is to be FI in UK a moment to improve my english by the same time. I've got a french licence (CPL/IR) and will get a french FI.
Of course I thought to do the FIC in UK straight after my CPL/IR course but the french CAA does not recognise the FI from another state (even JAR). :* so it will be a problem if I want to teach in France after an UK FIC...
So I wonder if it could really be an issue about the language... I mean I am not totally fluent in english yet...
Did you have any experience as a FI in France or Spain ?

many thanks!

[LEVC]

I never have worked or flown to Aix en provence, i did however fly to and from Aerodromes near Avignon.

The trouble is getting your rating endorsed on a french licence, if the FIC is done abroad, it wont happen.
i got aproval from french dgac to instruct in france on a spanish JAR licence but it took me over 7 months and a lot of "courage" as you say in french, not easy to deal with them.

France and Norway are the only ones causing trouble for licencing issues, the rest apply JAR's and you'll have no trouble working in them.


Ask to get your licence transfered to UK and then do the FIC, if you intend to work in UK i suggest, as others here, you do your FIC in UK, you'll polish up your english and get to know how they teach over there (some differences with the french syllabus for the PPL, not in the things you teach , but rather how you teach it), you'll meet people and make contacts that could be useful when it comes to find an FI job.

The UK CAA works very well, and their employees are helpful and reliable, of course there is always things to improve, but if you compare them to French or Spanish DGAC they are waaaaaaay better and faster solving things.

Getting a job as FI in UK is feasible for JAR FI's, of course your main worry should be to improve your english.

The only problem of transfering your licence to UK is that it will be more difficult to get a job in France afterwards (AirFrance wont let you in on a foreign licence).

[LH2]

LH2 were you training people at Aix-en-provence?

No. I'm a 110hr PPL, hardly in a position to train fellow aviators :uhoh:

I do fly somewhat extensively in France and I'm a member of an aeroclub in the South. I have also done my night qualification there.

i have flown a D120 for 75 euros an hour

Bargains like that are not unheard of, but like for like (e.g., comparing two identical C172s) most of the time the prices are around the same on both sides of the Pyrenees.

There is a British PPL school with spanish base offering PPL traning under UKCAA, if you do a search of old threads you'll fin info about it

If you are referring to Fly-in-Spain, that's were I did my PPL :) As I said in my previous post, I'm surprised there isn't more of them. Wonder why the likes of Aerofan haven't tried a similar setup (and there's my feeble attempt to get back on topic).

[LEVC]

I guess the reason is that to do it your bussiness (registered facilitie or FTO)must be conducted in english territory on a fair percentage , there are other british FTO's/registered facilities training abroad , i remember there is one in Bigging hill that has some planes based in Aix-en-Provence, where they did some of the flying because the Wx was much better than the british Wx.

Then you have BAE Jerez, or whatever is their name nowadays, they are based in spain , and all their bussiness is conducted in Spain, not sure how they go around it to get the approval to do it like this, perhaps a special agreement with spanish and british authorities, one thing is for sure they train under UKCAA authorities control, and their students get an ukcaa issued licence when finished.

I guess if the spanish dgac made the decision to let PPL students do their theory in english (as they do with CPL and ATPL exams), would be very helpful for the GA industry in Spain (almost nonexistant apart from the CPL fto's) , i mean , good WX, cheaper costs (for how long? who knows, inflation is getting prices levelled with the rest of the EU, so it wont be long before this process is completed), and the possibilitty to combine hollydays with ppl training.

LEVC

[LH2]

I guess the reason is that to do it your bussiness (registered facilitie or FTO)must be conducted in english territory on a fair percentage

Actually, based on what I've been told by someone who did the research, I am led to believe that the CAA are quite accommodating in this regard. It is my understanding that for a British registered facility (dunno about FTOs) to operate abroad all you need is the agreement from the local CAA. It should be quite easy (Ok, nothing's really easy in aviation) for a British CFI to set up his own shop alongside a local RF and train under UK rules.

there are other british FTO's/registered facilities training abroad

Yup, look at all the CAA-blessed outlets over in the States.

I guess if the spanish dgac made the decision to let PPL students do their theory in english (as they do with CPL and ATPL exams), would be very helpful for the GA industry in Spain

In my view, one significant advantage of the UK system over Spain's is being able to sit the theory anytime you want at the RF's own premises, but I agree that it would be a big step forward if they decided to allow PPLs to be done in English.

[P.S. On an unrelated note, I flew out of Girona this afternoon and, for the first time in two years, I heard a local PPL from Sabadell aeroclub doing his calls in English. Big thumbs up to this guy :ok:]