Strange habits of your copilots... [Archive]

SKYWRITER1

2nd Jul 2007, 22:00

Ha Ha,
Good one Danish, it goes both ways. I've seen Captains pull the speed brake in a 737 vnav decent, just to see the throttles go forward and the a/c nicely reduce the decent rate and recover back on vnav profile, much to the skippers bemusement. Everybody makes mistakes.

The problem is, F/O's (S/O's) such as myself, are very keen / desperate to learn. It is very difficult for right seat blokes to question certain things, (before the obvious start ranting, I mean non critical things, which can be checked later in the books etc for sop compliance) There are many perfectly acceptable "tricks", rules of thumb, or tips that thousands of F/O's learn from skippers which are great. The problem can be that if a Capt says its so, low houred guys question there own knowledge, especially during that flight. Dont get me wrong, I'm as thick as they come, ha ha, but mistakes and misunderstandings occur. As long as its safe, and its not the end of the world, use a nice bit of MCC/CRM straight from the book, and the guy/guyess in the other seat will love you for helping them correct their inadvertant mistake. Believe it or not, F/O's love flying with skippers who know there stuff.....

I'm a few shandies the wrong side of being chilled out, but were're all there to help each other, not to compete aren't we?

Carnage Matey!

3rd Jul 2007, 00:04

Aaaah, I remember the days of skipper trying to fly the A320 to 737 SOPs cos that was the way they did it on the 737!

John Citizen

3rd Jul 2007, 03:04

I'm always upset when I see captains telling me not to do things the way that I was trained to do by a training captain.'

If you a not a company approved training (and check) captain, then shut your :mad: mouth and don't pretend to be one when you are not.

If you got any serious safety issues (not small issues which don't matter at all), then take it up with the training department and don't confuse us FO's by telling us to do something different to the way we were trained.

Then again, I am sure there are some FO's who like to do their own different thing. However a quick discussion with the training dep't should enable you to work out if the problem is with the FO not complying or his training.

sudden Winds

3rd Jul 2007, 03:23

John Citizen :D:D:D:D:D:ok::ok::ok:

And what if you´re a FO who happens to BE an instructor and see the captain doing stupid things ?
I´ve seen all kinds of stupidities and I have never said anything unless safety was compromised or headed in that direction. I´ve seen captains forgetting to retract the speed brake and the throttles accelerating and wondering what the heck was going on, I ´ve seen people who don´t like to study and tell you to do things contrary to what´s written...nice to see their faces when you pull the book out of your case and show them that they´ve been screwing up for a while, and worse, telling others to follow their not recommended techniques.

LEM, the pilot flying next to you is not your copilot, he/she is one more pilot that happens to have been hired after you were, and if he´s not undergoing instruction (and you´re not an instructor, which it´s obvious you´re not) make sure you intervine in his flight only when safety is an issue, unless you want everyone to wish they could just call in sick everytime they have to fly with you.
SW.

Cardinal

3rd Jul 2007, 04:00

LEM, your point has been entirely lost on a set of defensive aviators. Let us recall, LEM's gripe was with the "So and so told me...." type of justification. You all rail about SOP and the like, well if you know the SOP like the back of your hand it shouldn't be a problem, shouldn't be terribly "confusing" when you hear something contrary.
What happened to basic diplomacy? When the skipper says something totally daft, let it go, laugh internally, say "Oh, very interesting sir" and forget about it at the end of the trip. Your next captain will appreciate it very much if you reject such lousy "advice" and carry on as a professional, in accordance with SOP. Makes his job much easier. From the Captains perspective, LEM is right, it is frustrating to see a good FO do something stupid and use the opinons of a stupid aviator to justify it. At my airline we have one instructor who exerts an inordinately large impact on my aircraft type. At least once a week somebody utters the phrase "Well [Fred] says...." And I am forced to counter with "If [Fred] told you to jump off a cliff, would you? What does the book say?" Terribly frustrating.
Conversely, there are lots of tips and tricks that serve to make the operation more efficient, smooth, or comfortable, and they fall into the technique category vs. procedure. When a captain passes along a helpful hint, think about it, compare it with any SOP limitations, and make sure that you fully understand what is happening in the background before you implement your new trick.

As for this statement from sudden Winds - LEM, the pilot flying next to you is not your copilot, he/she is one more pilot that happens to have been hired after you were, and if he´s not undergoing instruction (and you´re not an instructor, which it´s obvious you´re not) make sure you intervine in his flight only when safety is an issue,

This is a very dissapointing attitude (if you're an FO) or policy (if you're a CA). I read something on this board that epitomized the opposite of that thinking. Something to the effect of:

"To the great captains, who taught me something on every trip, thank you. To the horrible captains, thank you as well, for you also taught me something. To those that taught me nothing, thanks for nothing."

sudden Winds

3rd Jul 2007, 04:36

I understand your point, but keep in mind that when a rather new copilot answers "XXXX told me to do so" that´s probably because that pilot is answering to that question for the tenth time or so.
LEM mentions something about fixed attitudes. Someone must have told that copilot that initial target att at rotation is about 17.5 and then when u reach accel ht you lower the nose to about 10 and the a/c accelerates, and probably he thought he had to select those attitudes....regardless of what the FD says. If LEM, instead of getting upset, explains to the copilot that the FD provides Optimum pitch guidance and those 10 degrees may not always be 10, sometimes they´ll be 11, sometimes 12, and that by following a reasonable FD command he´s also protected if he encounters windshear, that´ll make the whole ride more enjoyable...I guarantee you, a captain wouldn´t like my answer if he started yelling at me for not being following a FD command by 3 degrees (especially if he does so at 1000 ft AGL) (My reply would come at FL100 + 1 foot, btw)
Maybe some other captain told that copilot to select initially those attitudes and then compensate for FD deviations, keep in mind that FD command bars induce some overcontrolling (especially the x-pointer type) if you try to nail it.
My conclusion is that you can always point out someone else´s mistakes politely and constructively, and you´ll get whole lot better results than if you just get upset and immediately question a method or technique.
Cardinal, teaching something is not what I consider an intervention. I am an FO and I have an excellent relationship with most of the captains I get to fly with, and of course I learn a lot from them. Everyday before I am informed who the captain I ´ll fly with is, I am hoping I fly with someone that will teach me something if he gets a chance and not someone like LEM that will just get upset if I do something he doesn´t like.

I am disappointed you misinterpreted my comment.
Regards,
SW.

0-8

3rd Jul 2007, 08:44

Let us not forget that the real villain of the piece is the trainer who confuses everyone by demanding that the F/O's operate the aircraft in an unusual and non-standard way.

It is a sad state of affairs when F/O's have to disregard or second guess the directions of the airlines own training staff.

danishdynamite

3rd Jul 2007, 10:17

Well sometimes saying "I do this cause I was told so by XXXX" is a very good way to shut up captains who fly own invented procedures and then comments your way of flying.

fireflybob

3rd Jul 2007, 10:36

Quite a few issues but here goes!

The last thing you want on the flightdeck is an argument! If what is being done is safe notwithstanding that you have drawn attention to the fact that it is not in accordance with SOPS then I feel you have as the second in command done your job. If its not safe that is a different matter!

Its surely not so much a question of what so and so told you to do but what the operations manual for your company states. I like the phrase "Documentation beats Conversation" - consulting the manuals is professional and takes away the personality aspect! Remember dont shoot the messenger, even trainers are human and sometimes dont get it right!

Maintain good relationships with whoever you are flying with and dont get into the us and them syndrome!

danishdynamite

3rd Jul 2007, 10:46

fireflybob I totally agree with you.
And 95% of the time when I am at work everything goes smooth with the cowork.
And as I am gaining experience I also see what I can use when a cpt says something to me and when I just wan't to let it pass right through.
But sometimes when you just get tired of listening to a cpt who think he is a training cpt but isn't and the way he gives his "advice" is not in a training cpt way - THEN - it is a nice way to make him shut it.

I am also being large regarding my tolerance with cpts who doesn't fly as perfect as the training cpts but it would become a very bad work environment if we all make comments on the way the other guy makes his work - as long as it is safe let it go in the air, and when on the ground we can talk about it if deemed necessary.
I am sure I can learn from normal cpts but just don't tell me in a "do this do that" tone.

Dani

3rd Jul 2007, 11:41

The way you should act is relatively simple: If it's written down in the SOP, then there is no discussion, do it this way.
If it is something not written down, then you can do it eighter way, and I as a captain should not interfere.

In practical terms it's sometimes hard not to say anything, but as long as it's safe and reasonable economic, you can let the other pilot let make the "mistake".

If I see that the other guy's doing it over and over and not learning it, then you might give him a hint.

Dani

HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD

3rd Jul 2007, 13:35

Shock horror,stop the press! A new generation of first officers discovers that everybody is different.It was ever the burden on the fo to have a little book of captain's likes and dislikes.There are many ways to skin a cat within the framework of decent sops.Remember, the object of the exercise is to get the aircraft to do what you want it to by using whatever mode or method is allowed and available. It is not just a matter of pressing a sequence of buttons in a set order and going along for the ride.

Tee Emm

3rd Jul 2007, 13:36

following a reasonable FD command he´s also protected if he encounters windshear

Blind acceptance or blind following a FD command especially in severe windshear will not necessarily protect you. Good airmanship and the cold realisation that FD commands are not always the magic solution, will do more to protect you from coming to grief, than locking on to FD needles oblivious of what the aircraft is doing.

galaxy flyer

3rd Jul 2007, 15:40

I find a simple, "where in the book does it say THAT!" works good. In the Reserves, so many airline pilots, so many techniques and procedures applied to totally irrelevant plane. I learned many techniques that are perfect on Boeings and Douglas' do not work on Lockheed's finest, much embarrassment there.

OPEN DES

3rd Jul 2007, 18:39

I like it when captains:

CP-It's you sector son. How much fuel would you like?? Let's make it a nice day out.

FO-Well blablablabla Cb's, Italy blablabla. Shall we take 7.8.

CP-Well, No, I was actually thinking of 7.7.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sudden Winds

3rd Jul 2007, 18:40

Tee Emm,
Did you read where it says "reasonable" ´cause I see you quoted it...
That´s exactly my point. An FD command should be followed as long as it´s reasonable and won´t put us into a CFIT or upset situation. Most FDs nowadays incorporate initial windshear guidance, but their recovery capability maybe overwhelmed by the severity of the WS. In this case a pilot must fly the airplane out of the ws him/herself. Reasonable commands should be followed without overcontrolling. Knowing approximate attitude for certain flight phases helps a lot.
Reasonable !!!

despegue

4th Jul 2007, 09:17

LEM and others...

It is simply GOOD AIRMANSHIP to put your hands on the thrust levers after TO and this until 10.000' or autopilot engage, whichever is later. Anyone NOT doing this will get a remark in my book. Why on earth would you have any problem with this?! As you fly the B737, you must know that you can not by any means trust the autothrottle 100%. At Sabena, we called this GOP. Good Operators Practice.

Also regarding the FD... It is a GUIDANCE tool and NOT an ORDER bar.
This simply means that you should never BLINDLY follow the FD. Boeing says that on the B737, any pitch of 22.5 degrees or higher is exessive, yet the FD often asks you for a higher one. It merely wants you to keep speed. NEVER EVER (exept if ground contact is imminent or severe windshear) go beyond 20 degrees pitch on the B737. So what if speed goes up a little bit. Better this than the opposite.
The same for turns. Don't wait for the FD to start giving you a turn, already start the turn and the FD will follow. For god's sake, fly the aircraft and don't be a FD slave. Again, GOP, Good Operator's Practice.

Rant over.

ManaAdaSystem

4th Jul 2007, 11:04

LEM and others...

It is simply GOOD AIRMANSHIP to put your hands on the thrust levers after TO and this until 10.000' or autopilot engage, whichever is later. Anyone NOT doing this will get a remark in my book. Why on earth would you have any problem with this?! As you fly the B737, you must know that you can not by any means trust the autothrottle 100%. At Sabena, we called this GOP. Good Operators Practice.

Are you talking about guarding the throttles or holding on to them? If you are so concerned about the autotrottles, why don't you keep your hands on them all the time? Which book are you putting your remarks in? Is this SOP in your new airline?

Also regarding the FD... It is a GUIDANCE tool and NOT an ORDER bar.
This simply means that you should never BLINDLY follow the FD. Boeing says that on the B737, any pitch of 22.5 degrees or higher is exessive, yet the FD often asks you for a higher one. It merely wants you to keep speed. NEVER EVER (exept if ground contact is imminent or severe windshear) go beyond 20 degrees pitch on the B737. So what if speed goes up a little bit. Better this than the opposite.

On a normal derated take off I've never seen a FD command 20 degrees+. On the other hand, I have never seen a 20 ANU limitation anywhere either.

flash2002

4th Jul 2007, 18:24

What is the difference between holding the throttles or guarding them?????:confused:

Anyhow my company's sop is to guard/hold the throttles when below msa. Or manual flying offcourse. Weird maybe but what kind of problem do you exactly have with the PF holding/guarding the throttles??????

ManaAdaSystem

4th Jul 2007, 19:23

The way I've been trained;

During take off, captain has his hand on the throttles up to V1, then removes his hand. FO then guards the throttles by placing his hand behind them in order to prevent any "uncommanded" movement. He keeps his hand there until climb thrust is set.

In theory, this prevents the captain from aborting above V1, and prevents him from yanking the throttles shut if he suffers from some kind of sudden medical condition.

After this critical phase I see no pressing demand to hang on to the throttles? If you disagree, then you should have your hand on the throttles at all times?

flash2002

4th Jul 2007, 21:34

Well in lvlcahnge with a/t in I sometimes just pull back on the thrust to rduce the v/s before level off.
I know should us v/s........but hey!

Let me reverse the question, would it be wrong to guard the thrust lever the entire flight???? I'm not asking if it is neccessary. Just if it is wrong?

airbus-commander

4th Jul 2007, 21:44

When my F/O questions my authority

Chuffer Chadley

4th Jul 2007, 21:54

When my F/O questions my authority

Your authority to do what?

Disregard the SOPs?
Get the operation into a potentially embarrassing (or indefensible at an inquiry) situation?
Put the aircraft in danger?

Part of the job of the FO is to watch the Captain's blind spots. Second pair of eyes and all that. One of the more difficult duties is to occasionally rein him in when he starts misbehaving. And yes, some Captains do.

Of course, there are plenty of good reasons to deviate from the SOPs from time to time. However, I know that there are some less responsible Capts who do so to show off, prove a point, or just do it because they can. This can quickly distract the FO, make his life difficult, and prevent him effectively functioning as a useful part of the crew.

People will ask, airbus-commander, if you're ex-military. In fact, with the attitude that seems to be on show here, I strongly suspect you're not.

All the best.
CC

flyboyike

4th Jul 2007, 22:11

How about we talk about some of the strange habits of our Captains? I recemtly flew with one who emphasized during his crew brief that he does everything "the company way". He then proceeded to do just about nothing the company way. Granted, he didn't do anything unsafe, but I'm curious why say you'll be following the FSM and then not do it?

Cardinal

5th Jul 2007, 04:24

flyboyike, I'm with you. Over and over again. It took perhaps 6 months as a fresh-faced FO to realize the universal truth that if somebody goes out of their way during a crew brief to say "I'm by the book" or "I'm pretty standard" it means just the opposite, hold on, it's going to be a long trip, and expect the unexpected, random, clueless, and dangerous.

pakeha-boy

5th Jul 2007, 05:05

Tee Emm.....we have a windshear procedure,which does not advocate following the FD(AIRBUS stuff),which is what I think you are alluding too...but please explain to me what a "severe windshear" is???:confused:

Turbulence and other phenoms come is catergories.....lgt/med...etc/....wasnt aware that a windshear was in that class...PB

LEM

19th Jul 2007, 12:17

When I started the thread I had in mind strange habits.

That means one copilot (or First Officer if you prefer) out of, say, fifty, does strange things.

In my example, keeping the left hand on the thrust levers up to about 3000ft, is definitely strange.

Nobody else does this here.
It's not sop, and we can discuss a lot about all the points made here...
When I see this, I don't know what is happening in the FO mind: does he think we can abort after V1 if enough runway remains?
What if he suffers from sudden medical spasm and pulls the levers?
I see he's struggling a bit to keep that hand up all the way to 3000ft, instead of flying with both hands on the yoke, and I think "What the hell is this about? I don't want him to grow with this silly habit!"

Mind you, my reaction is not the one you may think: I'm not gonna be immediately upset by this, and I later on ask -almost- nicely the reason for that, I get upset by the answer!
Had he told me " I do this because I think it's a good idea", then fine, we'll discuss and maybe I will learn from him, but when I hear (or guess) the name of the geniousnowincharge as the origin of this habit, my blood makes one quick turn....:mad:

Re: the flight director commands:
Systematically keeping a lower attitude all the way to the after takeoff cklist is wrong.
Period.
As somebody stated, the flight director is not always right, but when it is it must be followed.
First al all, we are two in the cockpit: if you keep 3 degrees less all the time, the other guy doesn't know what the **** is happening to his colleagues' instruments - or mind.
Second, you don't know better than Mr. Boeing.
Third, noise abatement profiles, economy speed and blah blah.
IF THERE IS NO GOOD REASON TO IGNORE IT, KEEP THE DAMN FLIGHT DIRECTOR CENTERED!

What else can I add...:hmm:
Those who used terms like "normal Captain", or "you are not an instructor" and similar rubbish:
maybe one day you will learn things are not always as they should be in a perfect world, there are a lot of grey scales and hidden reasons...

To me, a Captain is always an instructor, and an instructor is often a man who had to sell his soul to the management, in very poor words.
Not always, but often.

After 10 years of command, I've only received expressions of gratitude from my old copilots, even thos who, at first, thought to call in sick every time they had to fly with me.
:E

LEM

Centaurus

19th Jul 2007, 12:49

I hate it when some captains call us co-pilots. I'm a First Officer d*mn it! I'm an airline pilot in Canada...I'm no "co" anything

Nothing wrong being called a Copilot. In fact it is an honourable rank held with pride by thousands of World War Two pilots.
The Copilot
I am a copilot, I sit on the right
I'm quick and courageous; I'm wonderfully bright
My job is remembering what the captain forgets
And I never talk back, so I have no regrets.
cho: I'm a lousy copilot and a long way from home.
I make out the flight plan and study the weather,
Pull up the gear, drop it, and stand by to feather
I make out his mail forms, I hire his whores,
And I fly his old crate to the tune of his snores.
I make out the flight plan according to Hoyle
I take all the readings, I check on the oil,
I hustle him out for the midnight alarm
I fly through the fog while he sleeps on my arm.
I treat him to coffee, I keep him in cokes
I laugh at his corn and his horrible jokes
And once in a while, when his landings are rusty,
I come through with, "Yessiree captain,it's gusty!"
All in all, I'm commissioned a general stooge
I sit on the right of this high-flying Scrooge
Some day I'll make captain, and then I'll be blest,
I'll give my poor tongue one long hell of a rest.
From The Wild Blue Yonder, Oscar Brand
RG

Drop The Dunlops

19th Jul 2007, 13:02

I agree that it IS good airmanship to cover the thrust levers when (a) they are being moved by the autothrottle system, and (b) below MSA and close to the ground. The same goes for the flying controls.

I once selected climb thrust in the 737 (CL) and the thrust levers closed at 1500 feet! Since then I will always cover them after take-off!

Also LEM , if you are not happy with the habits of your co-pilots and you feel that what they are doing is the wrong thing then don't come on here making yourself look like a classic "P minus, G Plus" Captain, just discretely discuss it with your training department.

pakeha-boy

19th Jul 2007, 15:12

Quote...Also LEM , if you are not happy with the habits of your co-pilots and you feel that what they are doing is the wrong thing

I dont think he said wrong,he said "strange"..........but then I would agree LEM,you just might be a little picky here mate.....unless your training dept specifically prohibits it...then maybe you should be a little more accomodating......different strokes for different folks......as Captain,upon seeing/hearing or referencing any abnormalties......its your Aircraft,the moment you say it is

I have F/O,s/Co-Captains...turn the autopilot on @ 100ft,or hand fly it through 10,000,then turn it on.......I have some, including myself,hand fly an approach in VFR,with autopilot,FD,autothrust all off for practice,,,,,,its not prohitied or not reccomended.....automation is great,but if these systems decide to take a holiday.......

The one thing I find a little strange(not wrong) for both(as a jumpseater) are those who are unwilling to turn off the autothrust and practice something they used to do before getting into a jet ......

bfisk

19th Jul 2007, 16:36

Don't get me wrong here; I have no multicrew experience nor have I ever flown anything heavier than a Seminole, but I have flown with probably 50 different students as a FI - and here's my two cents:

There is what you must do, and what you may do. You must follow SOP and you must comply with manufacturer's procedures, and you must follow regulations. You may listen to the tips and tricks of your captain. You may choose to implement it, parts of it, or refuse it, for various reasons. Not listening to your intro-lesson-student, your 200-hr-young-copilot, or your company chief flight, may make you feel better about yourself, but chances are that neither of you are completely right.

Really, if I could be right only 55% of the time, I could be a stock broker, earn millions a day, and buy aviation as a whole, and decide what is right and wrong. So how many of us are right about most of what we say?

parabellum

19th Jul 2007, 23:27

Personal opinion but I think keeping hands on the throttles during the climb up to 3000 feet without the auto throttle selected on and engaged is positively dangerous.
Hit a lump of turbulence and the nose goes up, the speed drops off, inadvertent movement of the arm and the throttles close, next thing you know you are in stick-shake territory. At least in descent the attitude is on your side and you are possibly making minor adjustments all the time anyway.

Wingswinger

20th Jul 2007, 06:57

Don't forget the "get out of jail" card (for those who operate under JAR-OPS 1) - JAR-OPS 1.085(g)

(g) The commander or the pilot to whom
conduct of the flight has been delegated shall, in an
emergency situation that requires immediate decision
and action, take any action he considers necessary
under the circumstances. In such cases he may deviate
from rules, operational procedures and methods in the
interest of safety

and in the UK, ANO article 77 -

Authority of commander of an aircraft

77 Every person in an aircraft shall obey all lawful commands which the commander of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons or property carried therein, or the safety, efficiency or regularity of air navigation.

In extremis, a captain can do whatever he considers best and you'd better obey. :E

BEagle

20th Jul 2007, 07:52

Although the airlines have probably come a long way from "Just shut up and learn, boy!", I do have one question....

Doesn't anyone teach these kids HOW TO FLY anymore?

Slavish concern about FDs and when to fly with both hands and when to fly with hand on throttles is of less concern than FLYING THE AEROPLANE!!

Back to basics might help a lot of people. A few take-offs with no FD, no AP and just raw VOR might sort out a few folk. There are some co-piglets who've probably never hand flown the aircraft above 1500ft...:rolleyes:

I recall a TV programme where each candidate had to fly an aeroplane of some type or other - the winner got to fly a historic military aeroplane. One of the worst candidates was an airline co-pilot - he simply didn't have any basic stick-and-rudder skills worth a damn. No toys, no autopilot and he was like a fish out of water.

And now the MPL is looming......:eek:

Dream Land

20th Jul 2007, 08:15

We yank the plane off the runway, press a button, and order lunch, why is it a surprise that flying skills are lost? :}

LEM

20th Jul 2007, 09:16

Not with me.

I'm notoriously the one who does most, and ecourages to do most, raw data manual flying in the company.

That's also why, if you don't want to follow the flight director, I say just switch it off!

Wingswinger

20th Jul 2007, 09:27

Nor me. It's a constant battle to persuade people to disconnect everything when it's appropriate to do so.

Another conundrum: Why is it that so many young FOs insist on starting the descent before top of descent? Are they that lacking in confidence about their own ability to get back onto the path from above?

BOAC

20th Jul 2007, 09:33

The one I 'like' is, on the 737, to select 'Descend Now' some 20 miles early (on the basis that 'VNAV cannot be trusted') and then have it fly down at 1000 fpm to rejoin the same 'untrustable' VNAV profile some 10,000 lower:ugh:

Kiltie

20th Jul 2007, 15:32

To the poster who rudely scoffed at his remarks, and coming from a person with "a few thousand hours under his belt", I think bfisk shows a sensible attitude for his experience. I consider that SOPs must be followed, but inidividual technique may be applied and indeed encouraged where pertinent so long as it doesn't compromise SOP or safety.
As has been quoted from JAR-OPS above, it is OK to deviate from an airline or manufacturer's SOP where following such would be unsafe. It is not however, an excuse to do what we please when we please.
There will always be differences in operating in the flight deck. To eliminate all differences our operating manuals would be undigestably thick. I will only question an FO's technique if it is compromising the safety or commercial operating efficiency of the aircraft. Sometimes letting people get on with it builds their confidence allowing more open acceptance of constructive criticism in the future.

Strangely enough the old FD problem was often reversed for me where new FOs tried to fly with it off as often as possible in a vain attempt to replicate their light aircraft skills. This inevitably hindered their progress. A balance must be struck somewhere.

TolTol

20th Jul 2007, 15:54

Just on the Vnav topic. I really dont trust it at TOD. Twice I have had to revert to CWS to stop it diving for the path. Now I just use V/S or Level Change.

Of course its only a problem when I see a long green arrow pointing up into a red bar!!!

SR71

20th Jul 2007, 16:37

TolTol,

Just to be a pedant....

The necessity for you to disconnect the A/P during a VNAV PTH dive for the profile isn't a problem with VNAV per se, it is a problem with the rate at which the aircraft responds in pitch - placard limit reversion - to an upcoming overspeed situation.

The transfer function time constant is way out in my opinion, which, of course necessitates your timely intervention, one way or the other.

The FMC Guide even mentions this in the section on DES. Update 10.2 shifts the reversion to Vmo/Mmo - 7 kts to try and combat this problem but it is still too late in my opinion.

In my experience, those who mis-trust VNAV computed profiles inevitably don't fully understand what the algorithms do and why a deviation may or may not result during the descent. As for energy compensation, well.....

It should be no surprise that the pilot is responsible for speed control during a VNAV PTH descent. Again, the FMC Guide states this too!

The systemic misunderstandings that underpin BOAC's observations are quite prevalent and really just reflect a laziness in terms of getting to grips with the functionality Boeing have placed at our fingertips.

My $0.02.

Empty Cruise

21st Jul 2007, 11:35

...as - ahem - interesting?

Own navigation to a waypoint - ATC liberally clears us to descent 2000 ft. below MSA. F/O happily acknowledeges - and then starts arguing that "...well, we're radar monitored...". When that was refuted, he tried "We're under radar vectors" - but had to acknowledge that no heading had been assigned. And just to compound matters - when I requested that he infom ATC we were stopping descent at 5000 ft & requesting radar vectors, he thought that this was the right time for a jibe at the old man in the LHS: "We're cleared to descend altitude 3000 ft..." instead of just requesting the vectors. :=

Please don't tell me that this is the new generation of future captains we're seing here??? Thank god there are 10 good'uns for every bad'un :} , so the BC will still have some choice as to who's put forward for upgrade :E

ithinkso

23rd Jul 2007, 03:46

all captains are training captains. f/os that wont take the advice of the more experienced bloke next to them shouldnt be there. perhaps a case of their confidence outweighing their ability.

the problem these days is: young pilots are getting into jets with virtually no experience. back in the really bad old days, you wouldnt get a look in until you were 8-10thousand hours into your career before you got a right hand seat on a burner.

all of the previous comments basically are about airmanship. guarding thrust levers, following flight directors, hand flying as opposed to auto, are all basically covered by the premise of basic airmanship. i have seen many f/os, and captains by the way, in a blind effort to obey sop's, putting the aircraft into less than desirable situations.

basically, follow sop's until they try to kill you, iron your uniform, and fly the machine.

cheers

John Citizen

23rd Jul 2007, 05:50

all captains are training captains
I disagree.

I believe to be a training captain you need to be able to fly with a very high standard and to have been thoroughly checked out to ensure strict standardised compliance with SOP's.

The reason I say this is that some of the captains I fly with fly to a poor standard and have poor SOP's.

2 of my captains never believe in doing a preflight external inspection because the engineers do it anyway. Every brief is simple 2 words "standard brief".

Instrument check "all looks ok here" (but HDG bug, QNH, speed bugs, CDI and assigned altitude not set !!)

These captains expect me to comply with their ways because they are just too lazy and couldn't care about doing it properly.

So are you now telling me that they should be training me to fly this way ? :confused:

How can this be a case of my confidence outweighing my ability ? :confused:

I am not perfect and also make mistakes but I have to admit that I have seen a few very incompetent captains out there and for them to train me to fly their way would be a joke and going backwards.

Just because you are a captain does mean that you perfect, know everything (like some think they do) and that you always fly better than a copilot in every possible way. There sometimes might be better techniques out their (which an FO might use).

Also as you know, every pilots has their own flying technique and their own perception of what the SOP'say and what good airmanship is. I have seen large variations between various captains yet in their own mind they all believe to be follwing the SOP's. Makes it worse when they expect me to fly "their" way.

What this means as an FO, I have to adapt the way I fly with every different captain because they all have "trained me" differently.

I shouldn't have to review my book of notes on each captain before I fly (as I do) to ensure I fly "their way". Its very confusing for me and it makes my life very difficult if I have to fly a different way with every captain.
Quite often what 1 captain says or does completely contradicts what another says.

I just don't know what is right or wrong anymore :confused:

A lot of times i really want to say just ":mad: OFF" and leave me alone.
This is not a training flight/line check and you are not a check/training captain either.

BelArgUSA

23rd Jul 2007, 06:54

Talking about my F/Os...
xxx
Well, most of them are great guys, good pilots, and many are personal friends, but there were some in my life that I will never forget. Since it probably does not apply to you, just laugh with my opinions of some of the idiots with whom I had to solo some airplanes... By chance, unlike most captains nowadays, I always had a flight engineer... the most important crewmember.
xxx
A few sentences from flight engineers adressed to me as they were gone out of the flight deck "Hey, Pablo, you are not going to let that idiot really land the plane, are you?"... "Pablo, I am a professional engineer, and never will be a pilot... and this guy is a professional first officer, he will never be a captain"... "Pablo, I think his brain has been DMI-ed"...
xxx
We had "two-tones Jones" as a F/O with PanAm... he had a high pitched voice, but when taking the mike, to make an ATC report, or a PA to the cabin, his voice became two octaves lower and deeper. Same thing happened when a nice looking female F/A came to inquire about drinks or a meal for us... Jones clicked his switch on his throat, to speak to her...
xxx
Then I remember a flight engineer with long legs, having is his feet almost amputaded by an F/O who moved his seat all the way back. So I briefed my engineers on preflight about that F/O's habits... they used the fire axe to block the movement of the seat to full aft, on the seat tracks.
xxx
Occasionally, I had new F/Os who never had flown with me, and did not know about my sense of humour... One engineer briefed one F/O, while I went to shake hands with passengers... "You know, with Pablo, he his a great guy, but he never will let you land the plane"... "if you want a landing, he will sell you one for 20 dollars"... after 2 landings I did myself, that F/O went in his wallet, and pulled four or five 20 dollar bills and put them on the pedestal... "Can I have the next few landings, Pablo?"... this went on for a few days, I think I got some $200 total out of his wallet... Finally, we had a nice layover in Bogota, and at the bar, the 3 of us, and the 4 F/As got my announcement... "Ladies and gentlemen, the drinks are on the F/O, here is the $200 he paid me the last few days for his "landing fees"...
xxx
Once I got an F/O who had stated that he hated gays... I said to him, with my best lovely smile and a gesture of disappointement "Well, too bad, but I am gay, you know?"... The flight got fine, he was PF, I was PNF... he started the approach, and getting on the ILS, I asked, "Have you ever flown a "coupled" approach, dear?"... he answered "No"... so I did engage the 3 channel autopilot (but not the autothrust), and as he passed 1,000 feet AGL, his hand on the thrust levers, I put my hand on top of his, and we flew a delicious "coupled" approach, hand in hand, with passion... I think it was his worst "approach" ever... Of course, the three of us laughed about it at the hotel bar debriefing, after he learned about my practical jokes... From then on, this F/O is one of my best friends, he keeps on calling me "¡Pablo, mi amor querido!"...
xxx
I will keep the next ones for another occasion...
:)
Happy contrails

ithinkso

24th Jul 2007, 03:46

john john john,

yes you do have to react differently to every captain you fly with. thats the nature of the game. its always been that way. sops dont mean that every flight deck you enter the dynamic between crew members will be the same. its simply a method of standardising operating procedures so that the operation will be conducted in a safe and calculated manner. it is also the means by with pilots are assessed during training. there are a million ways to skin a cat.

if a captain doesnt do preflight inspections, i assume somebody of the operating crew does. im sure that's buried somewhere in your sops. if no member of the operating crew is doing preflights, and you're happy to sit there and go flying, maybe it's you that is at some level of fault.

the term 'standard brief' is used by many major airlines, including the big australian one, where crews fly multiple sectors together during same day. it saves the repetition of going over the same rejected takeoff procedures, which basically dont change where ever one happens to be.

just relaxxxx

airbus-commander

1st Aug 2007, 21:56

I'am not ex military, far from it to be exact. But when some first officer who thinks they know best, questions my decisions or pretends they know it all, it annoys me. I know that safety is the number one concearn for any commander but at the same time i have a commercial responsibility to my company!!!!!

Dick Whittingham

3rd Aug 2007, 09:45

Airbus Commander
I hope I never fly in your aircraft, before your "commercial responsibility" and contempt for your crew costs one airframe and 250 lives.
Item: 727 on approach to Cuenca. CVR - FO continually saying "you are too low" Ignored. Result CFIT
Item: CVR. Capt and enginer joking about FO "What is the difference between a duck and an FO? Well, a duck can fly" FOs warnings that they are hot and high ignored. Result Off the end of the runway
Item: Suspect u/c problem; Capt elects to fly round trying to fix. Fuel state gets lower and lower. FOs repeated warnings ignored. Result. Zero fuel, crash, all killed(and the irony is that the u/c problem was a faulty microswitch)
So come off your high horse and join the human race. You are not perfect - not even close.
Dick W

Dream Land

3rd Aug 2007, 10:26

airbus-commander, not trying to flame you, but, there's no room in the modern cockpit for an over confident dictator, an FO's primary job is to keep you from killing yourself, you must give him the space to do his job, if not, he may be too intimidated to perform this primary function.

Airbusalltheway

10th Aug 2007, 00:14

LEM
just wanted to note my view on the throttle thing.
As a junior F/O(only got into the "jetviation world" recently) I havent much experience but the type I fly, and please disregard my nickname, we takeoff using a less the maximum power setting. There no written procedure but it's assumed we take the throttles into our hands in a way we are able to reach the TOGA buttons to press and ask for MAX thrust when we deem it necessary. That is the sole reason I keep my hand on the levers, loosly, but accurately positioned during takeoff up to 2000AGL(above which the TOGA switches are disabled).
I have a tiny amount of airbus experience, really tiny but I do know the basic system workings, and I can understand why my company expects the same on this type of a/c(e.g. flex detent, being ready to command MAX power)...
As our fellow from former Sabena says, it is a GOP, however having no experience with the 737 autoflight/thrust systems, can't comment on that.
Note: thrust levers in our flying tin are quite rigid and one can be sure a hand will not retard them due to even severe turbulence...
Concerning the tales of the copilot-screwups... it's a good laugh... I'm sure our captains have such amusing talks among eachother aswell, so well hey I'm happy I can give them a laugh and something to talk about.
cheers