ALMs in Afghanistan

[Mr C Hinecap]

Today's Telegraph. Can you spot the p1ss-poor non-answer from someone bland? :mad:
Overworked crews suffering from war trauma
By Sean Rayment, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 12:42am BST 01/07/2007

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/01/nmedic201.xml


A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: "All air loadmasters will complete tours in theatre followed by a period at home, the time periods being determined by the harmony figure. This figure is based upon manning strengths at 100 per cent.
"Consequently, while not all units will achieve harmony, the majority are very close to that if not better.
"Every effort is made to ensure that personnel take their leave whenever possible in order to rest and recuperate."

[Wafty Cranker]

Continuous six-month tours of duty in both war zones, coupled with the trauma of dealing with badly injured soldiers, is now taking its toll on the mental health of both Chinook pilots and aircrew.


RAF. I don't think so. Six weeks maybe....!!!!

WC

[Door Slider]

RAF. I don't think so. Six weeks maybe....!!!!

WC


9 week dets followed by around 4 months at home before doing at all again. Been doing that for 3 years now so wind your neck in. :mad: then put the squadron excercises on top of that it adds upto alot of time away

[ProfessionalStudent]

A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: "All air loadmasters will complete tours in theatre followed by a period at home, the time periods being determined by the harmony figure. This figure is based upon manning strengths at 100 per cent.
"Consequently, while not all units will achieve harmony, the majority are very close to that if not better.
"Every effort is made to ensure that personnel take their leave whenever possible in order to rest and recuperate."

Yes, that's right. Concentrate on Harmony and completely avoid the very real issue of PTSD. And it's not just Afghanistan, either.

Just because one signs on the dotted line knowing that one day you could be in the thick of it, it doesn't reduce the impact of seeing the results of military action.

[Wafty Cranker]

Door Slider

Twas meant as banter. Buy you a beer next time you are in the bar!!!

WC

[samuraimatt]

"It is believed that of those exposed to traumatic conditions between 5% and 80% will develop PTSD depending on the severity of the trauma and personal vulnerability"

Wikki

A BBC report said after the Falklands war that the servicemen say their stress was not diagnosed, treated or even taken seriously by the ministry.
The MOD said they had behaved "in line with contemporary best practice in our treatment of service personnel with suspected post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)".

So how much training and PTSD treatment do ALMs or other Aircrew for that matter get?
I don't suppose the new Defence Minister Bob Ainsworth (who?)really cares as he is now also responsible for Scotland and whilst Terrorists are driving Jeep Cherokees into the entrance of Glasgow airport that is more visible to the public.

[Compressorstall]

'Harmony' is just another thing to hide behind, like Performance Indicators and such like. The simple fact is that we are throwing our SH crews back into the fray after they have had precious little time to rebalance themselves after an operational tour, a short-ish period of Post Operational Tour Leave, all the Squadron detachments, followed by all the tick chasing required to prepare for the operational tour that inevitably follows all too soon after the previous one. Harmony guidelines are only quoted by those who don't deploy and thus have their time to quote such things.
The Telegraph also goes on about the shortage of SH to provide CASEVAC, wheeling out Rick Jolly. We are engaged in 2 theatres of operatons and it would be illuminating to study the utilisation of the SH.
However, the underlying tone is clear, the crews deserve sympathy since they are the ones heading out in harm's way, coming home and having a short period of time to readjust before heading off again, Lord Moran used to talk about courage being like a bank account and the SH guys may not be well paid, but their courage accounts are seeing more activity than when Mrs Compressorstall hits Oxford Street.

[engoal]

Anyone who doubts the effects that such levels of exposure to death and carnage can have on hels crews should take time out to read Bob Mason's book, Chickenhawk. And he was 'only' exposed to it for a single 12-month tour in Vietnam, not repeated dunkings into the cesspits of Iraq and Afghanistan. True, it may not be as bad as it is for the infantry, but that doesn't make it any better.

[airborne_artist]

This being a public forum I won't repeat the story told me by an ALM, when his aircraft was first on scene after several members of a British patrol took the full force of an IED .

A tough job right now, and the grown-ups should recognise it as such, and be backing them to the hilt with support both at home and when in action.

[Vidal]

I don't post here very often, but just for once I'd like to add my comments in the hope that perhaps in some small way it could help to make a bit of a difference. I was diagnosed with PTSD last year following service in the sandpit. Thankfully with some support from the docs, padre (even though I am not religous), head-shrinker (and you all have my deepest of gratitute, respect and appreciation for that) but more significantly my family and friends I'm now pretty much back to normal - well, normal for me anyway.
I had a pretty sh1t time for a while and if those people hadn't been there to help me get through things it would have been so much more of a struggle. Unless you've experienced the symptoms, or have significant expertise I think it's very difficult to imagine what these guys are going through. For those of you who may be reading this who are going through it right now, my thoughts are with you. For those of you who think you're having a bit of an issue, you must speak to someone - you're experiencing a normal reaction to an abnormal situation and the docs and padres will really help. For those of you who have mates who are going through this you can make a big difference: Please pick up the phone or knock on their door, you can make a BIG difference by doing this. Please don't expect that someone else will be doing this, show them you care and just be a mate. You can really make a significant difference by becoming part of that support network and it's not going to take up too much of your time. Reassuringly, life can actually improve with this sort of experience in the longer term, you can understand your priorities in life much more and appreciate the more important things rather than letting them slip by. Unfortunately, PTSD can take some time to manifest itself (generally at least 12 months, often 5-10 years) which means that charities such as Combat Stress (http://www.combatstress.org.uk) will continue to be busy and they still require funds (Stn Charities Officer anyone?) to provide support to those diagnosed after retirement/discharge.
I doubt very much that a thread on this forum will change any policy but it's up to you as individuals to look out for each other. If however you happen to be an airship reading this and you'd like to know more (I'm not convinced many of you really have a true grasp of what the issues of PTSD are) feel free to PM me and I'll answer any questions you want.
Stay safe fellas.

[Brian Dixon]

Vidal,
although you deserve to, you will probably never know how many people will benefit from the wisdom of your post. :D:D:D

Glad to hear that you are on the mend.

Much respect to all those who have/are/will do the difficult tasks overseas.

Brian

[c130jbloke]

Vidal,

Your post must rate as one of the most sensible ( and honest ) ever. Well done.

Glad to be out of it now, but my thoughts are with those still in...

C130JB

[R 21]

Harmony, perhaps should be called lack of harmony.

Compressorstall is true. The actual 'Air Command' policy is a harmony of 1:4 ie 1 period away then four at home. JHC being a tad more punchy has lowered their harmoney to 1:3. I have friends at Benson and Odiham who say their crewmen have less than 1:3 (approx 1:2.5) but if you take into account squadrons on a whole it is averaging 1:3.

Surely the problem of PTSD is going to get worse not just for the loadmasters but for all brit mil???:confused:

[Compressorstall]

Harmony is all well and good, but does it really take into account the support of a prolonged campaign? Respite tours are a thing of the past, so Harmony starts to become irrelevant for those on their 5th or sixth tour of the sandpits. There is no obvious answer in the absence of lots more money and personnel, however those SH crews are on a perpetual spin cycle.

[wokkameister]

Chaps,

The problem outlined in the press today is very real, believe me. There are more and more cases with the rotations through the Stan.
Burying of heads in the sand(forgive the pun) will not solve the problem, and the facilities offered by Brize, whilst good, are stretched to the limit. I would urge you all to be as sympathetic as possible to this as an issue, and to do anything you can to assist Cobat Stress (The Charity) to help those of all 3 services who have reached their 'full' caption.
Remember if you will, we are all different and have different capacities to cope with things that the average human being is not pychologically programmed to contend with.
The Infantry bear the brunt of this, but it would seem that the IRT crews are dealing with every incident, whereas many deal with an incident in isolation.
Whilst the Telegraphs article concentrates on Loadmasters, the medics also have a great deal to contend with, though possibly are better prepared.
Whatever your service, I can guarantee that it is my mission in life to give you the support you require, when you require it, where humanly possible. Everyone else in my position shares that vision (no I am not the Staish).

WM

[samuraimatt]

Surely the SAR crews in the UK receive training in how to recognise and deal with stress related illnesses so why can't this be expanded across to the SH and AT fleets.
Maybe the RAF could employ some Psychiatric Registered Nurses to help with this sort of situation. With the amount of injuries coming out of Afghanistan these days this is only set to get worse.

[Mr C Hinecap]

why on earth would the SAR boys have that training? They tend to pick up distressed and live more than shot and blown up.

We employ some of the most professional Community Psychiatric Nurses you could hope to encounter. I'd just guess at there not being quite enough of them for the task in hand.

[Talking Radalt]

charities such as Combat Stress will continue to be busy and they still require funds

http://www.justgiving.com/96milesin48hours :ok:

[samuraimatt]

why on earth would the SAR boys have that training?

Well for the same reasons why the NHS give this training to its ambulance paramedics. They deal with injuries and death as well.

[Mr Point]

why on earth would the SAR boys have that training? They tend to pick up distressed and live more than shot and blown up.

Apart from picking up bodies of casualties that have fallen hundreds of feet to their death and dealing with casualties with massive trauma injuries, SAR crewman don't have any PTSD issues.:ugh: That and the pressure of carrying out CPR and defibrillation on casualties (including children) where you are their only chance of survival, doesn't really leave you with any psychological baggage, as I'm sure you can imagine.:confused:

There are many in the Forces subjected to some very gruesome sights. As Vidal has already said, it can be more than 5 years later that the effects of PTSD are seen, leaving a huge number of potential cases for the future.

The MoD needs to do more, not only to support those diagnosed with the condition, but to counsel those who are likely to be affected.

[Talking Radalt]

From the Torygraph:
"After every operation, I have to hose down the back of the aircraft and sweep out the blood

Every op?:confused:
Not saying this is a teeny bit exaggerated, but then again I'm not saying it isn't. I agree the whole PTSD issue is larger than many would like to believe or admit, but to be brutally honest I think the SH fleet is getting off lightly at the moment compared to other units and the anonymous crewman of 20 years sounds a little bit precious.
And yes I have been there, I have seen it and I have done it. Last one had one out of four limbs remaining. It isn't easy, but I get by by telling myself it could be a whole lot worse and despite what may appear to be a cavalier attitude there are times when I just cannot find the words to explain how I feel about what I've experienced, so even trying to tell the press is the last thing I'd do.

[Vidal]

Brian D and C130JB
Kind words and I thank you.

R21
“Surely the problem of PTSD is going to get worse not just for the loadmasters but for all brit mil???”
Absolutely, I’m not an ALM, with the types of ops all 3 Services are engaged in at present PTSD is a very real issue no matter what branch, trade or background.

Wokkameister and Talking Radalt
:ok: Good to see that the guys at Odiham are still top blokes - as they were when I did my time there (chances are we’ve met).

Samuraimatt and Shinycap
You’re both right (and to a small degree both wrong) so there is no need to squabble between yourselves. As Mr Point says the SAR boys have to deal with very gruesome stuff, as do medics, and I imagine that they can do that on a day-to day basis having had the necessary preparation to deal with those experiences mentally. However, dealing with them whilst being in mortal peril, and under the shadow of constant threat? That’s a slightly different issue. By the way, I don’t want to miss out on adding that the medics engaged on IRT duties OOA also have my greatest respect. Thanks guys. :D

The MoD was criticized in that past for not equipping those engaged OOA with suitable body armour. That has since been addressed. What remains a very real issue is that we, as human beings, deployed may have very little armour in a mental sense. This ‘armour’, in my opinion, can only come with robust preparation over a considerable period - I’m no expert, just talking from my own experience, and every individual is different. There is no quick fix, just bolting on a “These are some of the things you may have to deal with” package to IDT/IRT will not solve any problems, it may help to a degree but not significantly. Time is necessary to prepare individuals suitably for what they may have to deal with, perhaps from stage one training onwards. I think that some notice is being taken of the number of referrals to DCMH centres, in many cases though the damage is done and due to the nature of PTSD there will be a significant lag between taking preventative action to any reduction in cases. Just how suitably qualified commanders in the Service are to pass judgement on mental preparedness of individual detachees and to adequately debrief them on return from OOA is a matter that could, possibly, require some attention.

At this link (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1774418,00.html#article_continue) is an interesting article which my Padre passed to me shortly after I was initially diagnosed. It’s over a year old but the penultimate paragraph is certainly worthy of note.

“The number of referrals relating to psychiatric illness that the charity had experienced since the Iraq war began was on a scale normally seen 10 years after a conflict started, suggesting the psychological fallout of Iraq would be considerable”.

[nigegilb]

Vidal, is it not also true that Chinook rear crew have killed scores of Talibs during hot infil/exfil situations? Helo crews are operating in the middle of intense firefights on a regular basis. I hope the MoD wake up to the obvious vulnerabilities exposed by this kind of action.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Having been on the PTSD treadmill I totally concur, you can be the hardest bloke/lady in the world and one day it will just hit you, lack of sleep. unusually short fuse, arguing with friends/wife and family and in some cases a feeling of being ashamed to have been part of a mis- led Govt, Foreign policy. If you see a friend/colleague in need please please give them your support in whatever way you can. If you are in a position of responsibility help where you can without being intrusive.

It is'nt just Odiham/Chinook that have problems with PTSD, it is affecting Benson as well and not just the aircrew. Groundcrews as well as aircrew are suffering and it is only going to get worse, 4 months of being mortared/rocketed also takes its toll and groundcrew are getting injured, some quite seriously but its never reported. I know that there are some very overworked Psych nurses at the moment, and thanks go to the lady who saw me last year.......and I thought I was mad!!! There are also some grown ups at Air Cmd looking at this whole problem, taking it seriously and putting policy in place to help but I dont think the size of the problem is being fully appreciated by some of the ex cold war warriors around the bazaars who havent spent more than a fleeting visit in theatre. It is no longer a case of 'stiff upper lip chap', the nature of our Ops are intense mental and physical drain over a short period, some respite and then back to it again.

If you want to speak off line PM me. No names no pac drill.

Operate safely, come home and believe in the support of your friends - no man or woman should be an island.:ok:

[Could be the last?]

Approximately £54k was raised for St Johns Ambulance in 2006, not an insignificant amount. Picking up on Vidal's earlier post, how about JHC put the charity fund raising efforts into organisations such as Combat Stress this year?

I appreciate that CS deals with ex-serviceman; however,lets start looking after our own!:ok:

[Double Zero]

Vidal,

your original post should be embossed in gold and put on every active unit ( whatever service ) crewroom / mess.

I am not military ( though have been involved in a tiny way on development projects ) - I have the most microscopic experience of PTSD compared to you, through having been at the scene - coincidentally - of accidents including some tragic ones involving young people and / or colleagues.

As you say it's very hard to even work out what's happening, and if anyone can help a chum be it over a beer, video or whatever they're doing so much good...

I am prevented by age of 46 ( and probably incompetence in my case but I'm not alone in feeling this way I know ! ) from acting in the services, which frankly makes me feel guilty and useless, when young men & women with families are risking it all.

This is maybe an issue to discuss in itself judging by the manpower / recruitment shortages I read about ?...

All the best Vidal,

DZ

[Compressorstall]

The great thing about this thread is the recognition it gives. It doesn't debate the legality of the war, the decision-making or anything like that, it simply recognises the committment of the SH crews. Reports on Iraq and Afghanistan have become league tables that are pushed in between other news articles, but it shouldn't be forgotten that every day these brave SH crews are supporting the guys on the ground, coming home for a short spell and then going back again, and again. The Army makes good use of decompression but the crews are all too soon back in the world of currencies and scrambling for very limited aircraft to fit in everything else that must be done, whilst trying to meet the needs of families too. However they are dedicated professionals and I never fail to be impressed by them all but they are in need of investment and periods of rest.

[samuraimatt]

Compressor, shouldn't you have also mentioned the brave AT crews who are out there again and again and also the brave ground crew who are out there again and again running the eng dets in these theatres of war.

[R 21]

Matt

read the post it is dealing with ALM's primarily SH crewmen. If you want to blow sunshine up the rest of the RAF start a thread accordingly. We all know everyone is doing a great job out there.

Dont try and lower what the lads and lasses are doing out there.

Have you actually got in the RAF or are you still a wannabe?

:mad:

[c130jbloke]

Just read here http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=282531 that the ODI staish is on the prowl for the " 20 yr ALM" who talked to the Telegraph.
I hope that it would be to give him a pat on the back for giving an honest assessment of the potential mental health time bomb he may be sitting on. Or on the other hand, would it to be to rip his lungs out for stepping outside of chatham house.....
Then again, what is he going to do - send him back to the 'stan !!!
With the total lack of respite tours now, I suspect there is absolutly no way to ease the squeez unless PMA can pull some pretty impressive rabbits out of the hat.
Thought not
C130JB

[Talking Radalt]

I hope that it would be to give him a pat on the back for giving an honest assessment of the potential mental health time bomb he may be sitting on. Or on the other hand, would it to be to rip his lungs out for stepping outside of chatham house.....

Bit of both by all accounts.
Then again, what is he going to do - send him back to the 'stan !!!
Not quite. One word: Pension.
Latest rumour is the whole report is a montage of soundbites from an entire (or more) det compressed in to one for added impact.
How very unlike the press to do that.:hmm:

[Dundiggin']

For the edification of most on this forum an ALM on SH is known as a Crewman not an ALM. :ok:

Well done one and all. :D My heart, thoughts and greatest respect go out to all of you having to live with these psychological nightmares.......heros one and all.:ok:

[Dundiggin']

Over many years with a variety of different brevet holders employed to do the 'crewman job' on SH to avoid the confusion of how these different 'aircrew types' were being employed in the same job, the generic job title of Crewman was introduced. Crewmen are not referred to as 'ALMs', 'Air Engs', 'AEops', 'Navs' or 'WSops' no matter what their brevets say. In other words, despite having an Air Eng, ALM, Nav, AEop or WSop brevet whilst they are working the 'crewman job' on SH, he/she should be correctly referred to as a Crewman. There is no such thing as a 'Crewwoman' or 'Crewperson'.
Years ago we tried to introduce a 'CM' brevet to prevent this confusion but it wasn't supported.

Hope this helps.

Back on thread.......well done all you Pilots, Navs, Air Engs, ALMs and Crewmen.:ok:

[Talking Radalt]

And the (one at least) AEOp on the SH fleet. :ok:

[Dundiggin']

'Talking Radalt' - well said mate and well done! I think there are two of you.:cool:

'AIDU'...now you know :ok:

[The Swinging Monkey]

A very good friend of mine (ex Master) witnessed the air crash at the Ostende airshow several years ago. Apart from him and his family being extremely lucky in not being injured etc. (the a/c crashed only a few yards from his stall) he told me how much after the crash he struggled with the memories of the carnage and dead bodies everywhere. He had a terrible feeling of guilt that he and his family had survived, but that many others had been killed or badly injured. In particular, he told me about the body of a young baby girl he found in the wreckage and how upset it had physically made him and how it affected him for several if not many weeks afterwards.
He experienced emotions the likes of which he had never experienced before. He was irritable, restless, angry and just wasn't himself, and he readily admits that now. His Wife and Daughter also witnessed the accident, and his daughter also needed help afterwards.

But this was a 'big guy' in every sense of the word, who had seen a lot of life, and been in the air force a long time. He wasn't someone who you would expect to get upset or affected by such things. But he openly admitted that he was struggling big-time to cope with the nightmares and horrors of what he had experienced. He was the last person in the world you would have ever expected to have suffered from PTSD, but it had happened to him. He too sought professional help (not sure who from) and was soon back to his normal jovial self, so it can be helped with the right support, but it shows that it can affect any of us, no matter how big and/or hard we think we might be.

It is a real problem that many don't realise they might have or that others we work with might have. Look after each other and be safe. Keep a close eye on your mates, especially if they have had a hard time of late, and keep talking to them. The one thing that came out from my mate was the importance of talking to people and not being left on his own. Talking about the event, the emotions and re-living things. He initailly couldn't do it without breaking down, but later he was able to relate to it better and talk openly about what he had experienced and gone through.

Stay safe guys and girls, and look after each other.
TSM

ps Do the SAR boys not spend a couple of weeks with the London Ambulance Brigade folk anymore? We did when I joined the fleet, and in a way it helped me slightly. But I concur with everything that Vidal has written.