Spotters and airport security issues - Combined thread.

[BOAC]

No doubt to howls of protest, I hae re-opened a few old threads and merged them here as this IS an important topic both for the 'Spotters' themselves and for security issues.

Please use this thread to discuss the implications for spotters particularly following the incident at Glasgow on 30/6/07

[HZ123]

Can someone update me on how this initiative works/is still working etc. The last thing reported at LHR was that it would cost £15 a head to administer the scheme. With the new scheme of security training for all airport / ID holders about to commence it would seem important the spotters scheme happens?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I presume you're referring to the scheme organised by LAAS? I know little about it other than what I've read on their web site but when I first read it I couldn't believe it! In basic terms, anyone who joins LAAS can obtain a "pass". This will not authorise entry to anywhere but is supposed to infer to the "authorities" that the holder is a bona fide individual. Without proper vetting how can this be? Anyone, but ANYONE can join LAAS and obtain a pass free of charge... Just how does this procedure ensure that the holder is a "real enthusiast"?
Recently, aircraft spotters who were able to prove their identity and were watching aircraft from a public road were apprehended by the police and issued with "tickets" stating that they had been interviewed as possible terrorist suspects. Would the possession of an LAAS card have prevented this? If it would, I would join LAAS tomorrow.
Just to assure you - my wife and I are both avid spotters but have never been apprehended even after standing for long hours at the ends of Heathrows runways. Maybe our extreme age suggests to the police that a) we're harmless and b) obviously not terrorists.
I don't know the answer but having lived all my life in "secure" environments and having to hold this and that pass I am far from convinced that the LAAS scheme is of any real use.
Someone please assure me otherwise.....

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

worthless bit of paper I think, as you say proves nothing
lot better if you let police know you are there and what you are doing.
In Manchester spotters and police work together

G-I-B

[Mogget]

Heathrow may be the largest and busiest airport in Britain, but for spotters and other members of the general public that want to watch/photograph/film airliners at a major airport, Manchester is second to none. It is a shining example of what actually happens when airport authorities work with aircraft enthusiasts, and not against them.

It stands to reason that spotters would report any suspicious activity immediately, simply because any security breaches could ultimately have a direct impact on them. I marvel that certain airport authorities don't recognise that obvious fact.

[AlanM]

......seems a waste of a resource to me.... all those camera lenses that could catch anything suspicious.

[MAN777]

Does anybody know the situation at Paris CDG re photography, I heard they have created a new offence is this true ?

[Gulf4uk]

HI

The full details are on the Spotters website link below although when this was brought out it appeared to be more for Heathrow spotters sorry but that is the impression i got . most Police forces had not heard of it and today was the first time i have heard it mentioned in a long time

http://www.laasdata.com/taess.html

The one concern i had and still do was the phone number quoted to speak to a police officer my feelings are if you see somone acting suspicious at an Airport you must dial 999 any delay could be real Dodgy ok many calls could be nothing but why take a chance 999 is the only number to call.
Its now a fact of life at Airports , bus and rail Stations Spotters are going to get stopped but in some cases its the Same officers stopping the same people every day it get tedious but nothing we can do no card scheme will stop this happening just be polite and Show ID a UK driving licience i find is best if you have one or your Passport if overseas
Tony
farnborough

[ALLDAYDELI]

that Paris situation was posted a week or two back, there is a restriction. I cust & pasted something there. Look back on a few threads.

[BOAC]

Posts 129 and 130 on the 'Spotting' sticky.

[Gulf4uk]

HI

The Editorial ive just Read in a spotters magazine APRIL2006 PAGE 244
it has a picture of Red Arrows so you can find it on front ,sums up the
whole Situation which possibly could get even worse for Everyone not just
spotters .using a camera at or near an airport could be expensive

tony
farnborough

[Mogget]

Can you elaborate ?

[Gulf4uk]

hi

Yes Editorial says that the law on no Phography is to spread to all french
airports with a fine of 450euros (300 pound)and increased police activity
in UK under Section 44 counter terroism act he wonders how much longer
under the present Government before the same overreaction happens here
and that it was about time people realised that Spotters stand out a mile
and could be highly cost effective if the authoitys used there presence
instead of criminalizing it . make sence really thats the problem hardly
anyone bothers to use there brains its what spotters have been saying for
ages and well here At Farnborough with the SBAC Show in July the police
it seems will need boxes of paper if this keeps up We dont mind the searches
going in to the show at all but there will be hundreds around the perimeter
so i hope common sence prevails somehow i fear not

Tony

[PaperTiger]

...increased police activity in UK under Section 44 counter terroism act...This topic has come up a number of times in some photo blogs. Although the police often try to bluff and initmidate (as reported - I have no personal experience), their authorised actions under Section 44 are quite clear. Here is a summary, the accuracy of which I cannot confirm - perhaps a lawyer or police officer can.When a police officer reasonably suspects you are a terrorist you can be stopped and searched to discover whether you have anything in your possession that could constitute evidence that you are a terrorist. Since being a terrorist is not in itself an offence, unless you are a member of a proscribed group, this power means that the police do not have to suspect you of committing an offence or of carrying prohibited articles.

In addition the police can designate specific areas to be places where they have special powers in relation to terrorism. This means that within these localities people and vehicles can be stopped and searched by the police if they consider it expedient to do so to prevent acts of terrorism. There is no need for any reasonable suspicion.

They should be looking for articles which could be used in connection with terrorism but the powers can be used whether or not the police have grounds for suspecting the presence of articles of that kind.

Failure to stop a vehicle or obstructing a police officer in the exercise of these powers is an offence punishable with a fine, a prison sentence of six months or both.

DURING SECTION 44 SEARCHES
The police can only give you a pat down, remove outer clothes (eg - jacket, hat) search your bags, and have you empty your pockets
You do not have to give your name or address
You do not have to explain why you are there
There is no permission to collect DNA data during the search
You do not have to comply with any attempt to photograph or record you.
Women can not be touched by male police during these searches.
Make notes about the officers searching you - name, number, and police force.
Note the time and the events preceding the search.
Note the specific wording used by the police to explain their authority to search you.
Ask police for the reason that they are searching you. Specifically, are they searching for terrorists or are they simply trying to deter, delay, or inconvenience you?
If you have a bad experience with police, you may want to make a formal complaint.Most (all ?) airports are designated special areas as above.

[Mogget]

I have said elsewhere on this forum that spotters could be very useful as a kind of "outer perimeter" security force. They are there to enjoy watching airliners, and nothing more. Anything suspicious would be reported immediately, since it is in the spotter's interest to maintain good relations with airport security and the police.

I sincerely hope that this will not affect my attempts to film airliners at various British airports (particularly Manchester), as I would very much like to make some money from selling airport DVDs in the near future.

[skiddyiom]

I was at LCY yesterday, taking photographs, having flown in from the IOM. After around 2 hours a security operative approached me and informed me that taking photographs there was illegal and I would have to obtain permission to do so. I contested this, saying nowhere is this posted.

Howeve, I hied myself off to the Customer Service desk and enquired. I was told to call a number which I did. I was then told that under no circumstances would I be allowed to take pictures at LCY and I should take the matter up with the Airport Director.

So I went to the Jet Centre end of the airport and stood under the approach for a while, being passed by several marked Police cars who took not a blind bit of notice of this idiot with a camera standing almost where I was.

If indeed there is a no photography policy at LCY then it should be posted and made obvious. However, I would question the validity of such a ban as there is an area just outside the terminal with seating for people to watch the aircraft. The actions here smack of overreaction and ignorance.

If this sort of thing becomes de-rigour at other airports then spotters are going to be well and truly stuffed!:uhoh:

Andy

[LN-KGL]

Just to remind you - there is an anti-terrorism hotline for UK 0800 789321.
Here is a link showing the poster that Greater Manchester Police started to distibute at MAN a couple of years ago: http://www.ringwayreports.co.uk/anti-terror_poster.jpg

As a consequence of this, all my spotter guides for UK airports have this hotline printed on it. The spotter guide for Heathrow also have suggestion for how to behave when being approached by the police. In September I had a close contact with a threesome outside T4 at LHR, and as long as you knew your aircraft, answered their few questions in friendly tone they didn't create any problems for me.

The one page Acrobat formatted spotter guides can be downloaded from here (right column):
http://www.plane-spotter.com/Airports/index.htm

Kurt - editor PLANE-SPOTTER.com - the non-commercial aviation enthusiast website

[G-CPTN]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/6491261.stm
Police have enlisted the help of plane spotters to safeguard Bristol Airport from criminal and terrorist activity.
Under the new Airport Watch Scheme, police are hoping to harness aircraft enthusiasts' expert knowledge and enthusiasm to add to airport security.
Insp Chris Ware said the spotters would not be used to replace airport security teams or police.
A meeting was held at the airport on Saturday where police briefed enthusiasts on what to look out for.
Will we see similar 'cooperation' at other airports?

[Avman]

They're not the first. Manchester and Vienna come to mind. It's a great idea and more airports should follow suit. Trouble is that most of them seem to get some perverted pleasure by making life as difficult as possible for spotters! The outcome is that by doing so they actually cause themselves more security headaches than if they provided decent facilities in the first place. To make it effective though, local spotters should be background checked and be issued with local spotter I/Ds. A little admin involved in the beginning, but worthwhile I would think.

[Avman]

I know that the inspector in charge at Bristol airport is an aviation enthusiast and a private pilot of long standing

He's one of only a few left. Although it is a generalisation, the fundamental problem these days is that the majority of airport managers/directors/CEOs have no passion for aviation and as such cannot comprehend that a large proportion of the population do - including many who are active in the field. They are so indifferent and short-sighted that they fail to understand that the elimination of good viewing/photographic facilities does not enhance security, it actually achieves quite the opposite. Bravo to the attitudes of Manchester and Bristol. Heathrow and Gatwick, wake up!

[Avman]

To all airport authorities out there, please take a moment to read this AIRPORT WATCH initiative (see below) which has been pioneered in Canada. It now operates in Ottawa, Toronto and Calgary. I believe that Vienna (Austria) and, more recently, Bristol (UK) also have similar schemes. This type of initiative ensures that both airport authorities and dedicated aviation spotters/photographers enjoy mutual benefits. At some of the Canadian airports these recognised and registered Airport Watch spotters are additionally provided with high visibility AIRPORT WATCH jackets (which, incidentally, remain the property of the airport). I for one would certainly like to see more such initiatives that bring aviation enthusiasts and airport authorities together in combating crime and terrorism.

Airport Watch and Spotters' Participation
• Abstract
• The Problem
• The Objective
• The Partners
• Nature of involvement
• Actions/Results
• Assessment
• Lessons Learned
• Contact Person(s)
Abstract
The use of aviation enthusiasts (spotters) within the Airport Watch and the Jetway Program (Hyperlink to Pipeline/Convoy/Jetway Best Practice) at the Ottawa International Airport is a new initiative providing enhanced crime prevention and detection as well as better security at and around the airport at virtually no cost. This new addition evolved from the need for a more active airport watch program where dedicated observers can watch for suspicious activity rather than rely strictly on airport employees who are already inside the security perimeter. These "spotters" are on the outside of the perimeter and do not outwardly pose a threat to possible criminals.

The Problem
The aviation industry is a world leader in safety through prevention. When persons think of aviation crime, the most notable incidents would be terrorism by aircraft bombing and hijacking. Although these types of crimes are rare in Canada, they have unfortunately occurred. In addition to these most serious crimes, other more common incidents such as theft, vandalism and smuggling also affects the well-being of any airport, its employees and its clients.

The Objective
Crime prevention at airports is not unlike home crime prevention. It is based on anticipating risks and dealing with them. By removing an open invitation to criminals it will most often deter them from carrying out their crime in the first place. Most crimes occur because the opportunity presented itself and there was a low risk of getting caught. An aggressive airport watch program which includes crime prevention, is the basis for eliminating, or at least reducing to a minimum the risk of all crimes at an airport. This initiative demonstrates that by using "spotters" as volunteers in our airport watch program, it could greatly enhance the detection and prevention of crime.

The Partners
Strategic intelligence on persons or parties that would profit from serious aviation crime is obtained through police and intelligence agencies throughout the country as well as from agencies of allied countries. Airport security at the Ottawa International Airport is coordinated by Security Operations Centre (SOC) staffed by members of the Corps of Commissionaires (C of C) and with Ottawa-Carleton Regional Police Service providing the armed response. Passive observation is provided by dozens of remote cameras at critical locations in and around the main terminal. Transport Canada also provides a security and safety officer. The RCMP provides resources with a sub-unit of National Security Investigations Section. This plainclothes unit provides a variety of services including assistance to other agencies.
The Airport Watch at Ottawa's international airport includes the traditional partners such as the Airport Authority employees, First Air, Air Canada, Hudson General and general aviation services employees as well as the Canada Reception Centre (CRC), National Research Council (NRC), Environment Canada and the Ministry of Health.
An innovative addition to the regular Airport Watch program are the persons that visit the airport on a regular basis simply to watch movements on and around the field. These persons are known world-wide as "spotters" and they are common to any large airport, military or civilian.

Actions and Results
The term "spotters" originated in England about eighty years ago during the height of the steam engine era. These persons "spotted" approaching trains to record their engine numbers and traded this information with others as a hobby. Today, this pastime is well organized in the UK and Europe and is supported by most international airports. Many "spotters" are retired and are former military personnel. Others are students or pilots. They all have an interest in aviation in general and have a very good knowledge of the airport"s perimeter layout. They may spend hours at a time located on public access roads watching aircraft from the perimeter fence. They are usually equipped with binoculars, flight schedules, radio scanner and cellular telephone. Being familiar with these surroundings, many are aware of other visitors to the airport, both regular and irregular.
Initially, many of these "spotters" were approached by Cst. Brunelle to gauge their interest in participating in the Airport Watch and their suitability for such a program. All expressed an interest given that they already spend so much time on site. Additionally, they have all agreed to submit to a security clearance. Some were even relieved to know that their presence near the perimeter was not unwelcomed. Less than a year later, twenty "spotters" have been recruited. About half of their numbers were brought into the program by being referred by the original eleven participants. One of the gentleman was a former curator of the National Aviation Museum, two others were World War II Parachute Regiments veterans, others were student pilots, former RCAF pilot officers, two were church ministers and retired government security officers and the others are currently employed as authors, artists, consultants, computer engineers, etc. They all have a common bond in the appreciation of aviation in all forms. Most are very familiar with aircraft in general and could readily notice anything suspicious or if an aircraft was in obvious danger as they watch them about the field.
Management were impressed with the calibre of the volunteers and they were advised that this was not a replacement for current security programs now in place, but rather an enhancement. Their direct action in offences-in-progress, should one occur, is fully discouraged. They are simply asked to be eyes and ears for the travelling public while they enjoy their favourite pastime.

Assessment
Although there is no minimum time a "spotter" must spend at the airport in order to take part in the program, the average "spotter" visits about five times per week with some visiting the airport about three times a day! Whether or not there is such a program in place, "spotters" will visit larger airports. What this program has done thus far, is to organize their presence by letting each know who the other bonafide "spotters" are for their own safety while in remote areas of the airport. It has made them more aware of the risks to security and safety at the airport so that they can call airport security directly if required. The program allows for some control over who these "spotters" are by conducting security checks and by providing some rules as to what they can do. As the "spotters" are now contributing directly to the well-being of the airport and all clients, it was approved that they be given escorted access once or twice a year to the apron for the viewing of a particular aircraft. During the meetings that took place to get this portion of the program off the ground, the Airport Authority provided for some refreshments and Ottawa Airport baseball hats for the "spotters".

Lessons Learned
The benefits to such a program are for everyone. Clearly, the winners are all those who can benefit from better security at and around airports at almost no cost. The RCMP can benefit from this program as we have a presence at all major airports, even if that presence is a plainclothes one at some of them. In any event, our clients everywhere cannot lose with such a program. The success of this initiative is showed in a recent a case where a spotter's connection with spotters at another airport (North Bay) enable us to track down the arrivals and departures of a suspect cargo company we were collecting intelligence on. Not only was the airline's presence confirmed, but the local spotter also had the registrations of each of their aircraft and the dates they were there. "Spotters" are now seen as an asset and they are actively supported by the airport authorities.
By using the Jetway Program (Hyperlink to Pipeline/Convoy/Jetway Best Practice) training and techniques and providing information to "spotters" on what to look for, it is anticipated that we will accomplish even better results in the detection and seizure of contraband from criminals using air and major airports as mode of transportation to move and smuggle illegal goods.
Contact Persons
Cst Jacques Brunelle
Ottawa (Macdonald-Cartier) International Airport
National Security Investigations Section,
Criminal Operations Branch, "A" Division,

[Avman]

And, if you’re still interested, below are some extracts from initial Calgary Airport Watch meetings. Although it is available on a public domain, I have removed names and edited non-pertinent contents.

UPDATE: November 7, 2006
Calgary Airport Watch Meeting
October 28, 2006
Executive Boardroom – Calgary International Airport
13:30
Meeting attended by:
xxxxxxx – Calgary Airport Watch Committee Chairman
xxxxxxx – Calgary Airport Watch Committee Vice-chair
xxxxxxx – Calgary Airport Authority Security Manager
xxxxxxx – Investigator, NSIS – RCMP
xxxxxxx – NCO IC NSIS – RCMP
xxxxxxx – Acting Sergeant, Calgary Police Service
Approximately 27 members of the CAW
Meeting called to order at 13:40 xxxxxxxxx – CAW Committee Chairman
Presentations:
xxxxxxx –
Explained about the upcoming notebook which will contain The Standard Operating Procedures, logbook etc. This will be distributed to CAW members when it becomes available.
Explained rules and limitations for the newly issued passes.
Explained that the soon to be issued jackets , t-shirts and passes are and will remain the property of the Calgary Airport Watch Program.
Gave a brief background about the program for the benefit of the new members.
xxxxxxx –
Explained about the increase in size and volume of business that takes place at YYC, some of the future plans for the airport and how the CAW program can help maintain this growth safely.
Emphasized the importance of not getting actively involved if one sees suspicious activity, but to report it the appropriate authorities.
xxxxxxx –
Explained the importance of building the integrity of the program, especially when wearing the CAW jackets or shirts, when spotting around the outer perimeter of the airport.
The behaviour and attitude of CAW members reflect on the program as a whole and is important so businesses in the area see how CAW can benefit their companies and come on board with the program.
xxxxxxx –
Welcomed CAW to the family and explained that CAW members should not get involved if they see anything suspicious and how they should observe, make notes if possible and contact the proper authorities.
xxxxxxx –
Explained more about the notebook and the importance that all CAW members keep a monthly log of their hours spent spotting at YYC.
An effort will be made to enable members to report their hours through the website using the number assigned on their passes.
This information is important to the National AW program and the CAA.
A form was passed around for members to fill requesting their jacket and shirt sizes so the committee can get an idea of what needs to be ordered. Design and colour has yet to be determined.
New members attending were given Security check applications to fill out and these will be processed by the RCMP before passes are issued.
Calgary Airport Watch Meeting
June 24, 2006
xxxxxxx – Explained the role of different security organizations at Calgary International Airport and the importance of vigiliance. Also outlined how the CAW Program will fit in to the existing structure.
xxxxxxx – Explained the National AW program and how programs in Ottawa and Toronto are operated, what they look out for, what some of the benefits of the program are for both AW groups, and local airport authorities. Talked about how the program is gradually expanding nationally and internationally as well.
Passes:
Information will be made available to members shortly for getting their picture taken for their pass that will be provided free of charge by the CAA. The final design is still pending. More information will be distributed as it becomes available.
Volunteer hours:
Importance was stressed to the CAW for tracking the hours that we’re out spotting and doing photography. They are VOLUNTEER hours that both the National AW program and the CAA are interested in tracking. Please forward your hours monthly to the CAW email.
For those who are unfamiliar with the Airport Watch program, it is currently operating in Toronto and Ottawa. It was started by the RCMP in Ottawa who felt that they could utilize aviation enthusiasts as an extra set of eyes on the airport perimeter. Spotters know the layout of airfields and what is suspicious, or outside of the usual activities. The program has proved so successful in Ottawa, that it has been adapted to Toronto. Similar programs have been started in England at various airports.
Each spotter will have a background check performed on them and issued a unique Airport Watch ID card. The idea is to be easily identified when spotting at various locations around the airport. This will hopefully mean a better understanding of what spotters are doing and ultimately less hassle.
As a benefit to spotters for their vigilance, the Calgary Airport Authority has suggested ramp tours when unique visitors are in town or other aviation related benefits. These privileges could happen as often as every two months, at the airport authority’s discretion. Although no solid commitments have been made, the Calgary Airport Authority is very excited about the Airport Watch program and our contribution to it and is looking for ways to thank us.
This program is a lot of work, particularly the initial startup and the organizational side. What I am looking for is the names of everyone interested and their mailing address. This will be passed onto the RCMP at a point later in time when we are closer to startup. The RCMP will use the address to distribute the form required to perform the background check.
The hope is to have operations beginning either in late April or early May. The Ottawa RCMP officer who began the program will provide us a presentation. At the first meeting we will elect our executive structure for a predetermined term.
I should also mention that the Ottawa and Toronto Airport Watch programs charge a minimal fee to participate in the program. I can assure you that the program is not designed to generate profits; it is merely there to cover operating fees. The Airport Watch program is run like a small business. I can understand the apprehension of some to pay a fee, but I am hoping the benefits will outweigh the cost. In Ottawa the cost is $30 per year, while Toronto is a one time $20 entrance cost. I would like to assure you that the cost in Calgary will be as small as possible and the bare minimum to cover expenses. With proper planning and having an understanding of the other Airport Watch programs we hope to better understand financial needs.

[forget]

Interesting idea. See last item here -

http://www.ianleader.flyer.co.uk/pfabristol/pdf%20newsletters/April07.pdf

[jetstream7]

In the UK, there is already this scheme...

http://www.laasdata.com/taess.html

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

All clever stuff... but as far as the UK is cocerned, how does LAAS PROVE that an applicant is not a potential terrorist? As I see it, any Tom, Dick or Harry can join LAAS, or any aviation society, and apply for an LAAS badge; there seesm to be no positive vetting. If that's wrong please correct me. My wife and I are avid spotters and very interested.

[PaperTiger]

how does LAAS PROVE that an applicant is not a potential terrorist?They don't; there's supposed to be a police background check done. And these schemes make the assumption that a potential terrorist is going to be hanging around the airport perimeter for extended periods. Unlikely IMO - the bad guys are much more interested in what goes on in the terminal or in finding a remote site for loosing off a SAM.

These programs do no harm I suppose; don't see that they do any good though.

[Avman]

These programs do no harm I suppose; don't see that they do any good though.

Well, yes and no. True, it won't provide 100% security against the really bad guys. But then again who or what will? Properly administered I'd like to believe that such schemes do have merit. Additionally I also firmly believe that airports would vastly reduce their security headaches if they provided good public viewing/photography facilities rather than have members of the public scattered about all around the field. Unfortunately, I have to be cynical and say that IMHO some of today's so-called security experts are no more experts than my 2 year old grandson!

[Gulf4uk]

Have been discussing this elsewhere and would like to add a comment
that i feel this would probably be more of use at very large fields like
EGLL EGGW EGKKWhere there is a fair Mixture of aircraft operations
but at the GA field i cannot see the use of such other than Illegal
imports of drugs weapons \people keeping an eye open for those
.As for Fields like Farnborough the Airfield ops are more concerned I
feel with Clients privacy from Paperatzi Lens I may be wrong but
security from prying eyes comes first And moving Spotters closer
to the terminal would not appeal to them . Yes you can tell a
spotter from a press reporter well i could not be certain could you
there not going to waste time and money checking thats for sure
The local Police Here are not to bad we get the odd one or
two that like to be silly but in the main they stop and its the
usual check under the So called Act give you bit of paper
saying So and off they go if your decent enough no foul mouth
many will stand and chat look at pictures and things so it
isnt all bad .
Tony
Farnborough s

[Avman]

Gulf4UK - that's correct, this type of scheme is aimed more at the larger commercial airports rather than GA airfields.

[Gulf4uk]

That raises another small matter what about the weekender's dad and little Johnny and the none locals who are not registered and card holders there's always Some jobs worth With a NO CARD you cant stop here registered spotters only yes it will happen .for some perhaps a visiting Spotters phone number or EMAIL AD where you can inform local security of your intention to visit they might then give you points to look out for where not to go . just an idea to possibly please the majority Or am i just making work and cost but its somthing
that will need looking at the occasional Spotter

TONY

[Avman]

what about the weekender's dad and little Johnny and the none locals who are not registered and card holders

The way it works in Canada, is that dad and little Johnny are still welcome too. The basic idea of the scheme is not to discriminate against the general public but for the regulars to be known - and for them to report anything suspicious to the authorities. I have been to Toronto and just did my thing without any problems. The local Airport Watch guys were aware that I wasn't a regular but were satisfied that I was just another photographer. Had I done anything out of the ordinary I'm sure the cops would have been alerted and would have descended upon me in minutes. I also think that seeing a bunch of guys with AIRPORT WATCH jackets does provide some deterrent to would-be dodgy types.

[Gulf4uk]

hi

Thanks the basic idea seems very sound and could be ideal here
but as a watch.co-ordinator I Am a not sure i would Not want everyone
to clearly see who i am Perhaps in Canada its different but anyone
dressed like that would attract the idiot anti authority in UK
and abuse and trouble could happen . I wish the idea well if it
means at last we are not treated as GEEKS Or oh yes your
English they do things no one understands them


TONY

[Hotel Tango]

After recent events in London and more notably Glasgow, are amateur aviation photographers (entusiasts) going to be prevented from enjoying their hobby by ott kneejerk "security" restrictions and overzealous job's worth airport "officials"? Bet you the answer is Y E S !

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I am a lifelong spotter and retired aviation professional. In these days of increased security I fully accept that my hobby must take a back seat. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

[Hotel Tango]

Heathrow Director, that's unfair. You know exactly what I mean. And by the way, I'm an active aviation professional who simply enjoys taking photos of airliners, an innocent hobby I've pursued for a great number of years. Checking my I/D and even vehicle etc., I have absolutely no problem with. But if our basic freedom to carry on with our lives is taken away from us, then the terrorists have won.

[Gulf4uk]

hi
Heathrow Director is correct in what he says we may have to put up with a few restrictions on our Hobby at any Airfield ,Or any Transport Facility mainly where we park or leave vehicles Unattended or perimeter roads ,Have ID on us its not
asking much is it but it will help everyone we Hope feel Safer BUT DON'T FORGET DIAL 999 Anything looks SUS
Tony
Farnborough Spotters

[Cypherus]

Should A/C spotting enthusiasts be restricted and will they feel targeted by these curbs on there hobby, for the responsible among them I doubt they will, but for those that feel in two minds on the subject it should be pointed out that the use of photographic records of a location is rather a double edged sword, in the hands of those bent on chaos to further their twisted aims they can be a useful if not vital planning tool in ensuring there weapons are placed in the location that causes most physical and political damage and of course ensure they manage to escape the consequences of their actions while in the hands of the security services and the police they are a vital tool in tracking and prevention of such crimes.

Sadly in the case of Glasgow they were found wanting and I am sure efforts will be made after the fact too rectify this failure.

But to all those snappers in that area in the weeks prior too this event right up and including the day it may just be that you hold the key in that absent minded pikkie you took at Glasgow airport to locating those responsible as to be certain they were there in plain view for all to see.

So while a few restriction may be irksome to some of you, have quick scan through your shots and just maybe….?

[Hotel Tango]

Cypherus, you talk like the security people think: rubbish! members of the travelling public on vacation are more likely to have shots of airport buildings, check-in areas etc than spotters. Spotters, on the whole, photograph aircraft - not the front or interior of terminal buildings, car parks or other airport structures. The greatest proportion of photos are of aircraft on taxyways/runways/approach/take-off. Most aircraft photographers do not want clutter (such as buildings/people) in their aircraft photos and try and avoid such clutter whenever possible.

[hobie]

Our Local airport viewing areas have been decimated as a result of Peeps who park up for weeks on end and hang there washing on the perimeter fence ( a relatively new phenomina) ...... 911 of course .... and finally the $$$$$ anti-war brigade who try to attack anything painted grey :( (the final nail in the coffin) ......

we used to have a good few hundred mtrs of perimeter road immediately adjacent to the main runway with full visibility on approach ....full runway ...and departure (in fact the whole airport) where you could park up on a solid parking strip .... wave to passengers/friends (even Concorde Pilots, I rem :p ) or do all the normal things spotters do if that was your interest ....

I used to get a kick in the early PC days of taking photo's like the one below .... :)

but it's all gone ..... a 50 mtr long area now available .... no approach visibility at all on 24 ...... and limited parking of course ..... :cool:

Even the 'old dog' misses our trips down to the airport viewing area ..... ...... :{

http://tinypic.com/in4lrs.jpg
http://tinypic.com/in4lrs.jpg