Terror incident at Glasgow Airport [Archive]

gordonroxburgh

30th Jun 2007, 15:50

STRATHCLYDE POLICE

INCIDENT AT GLASGOW INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT

At 1515 hours this afternoon, Saturday 30 June 2007, a car was driven into the front of Terminal One at Glasgow International Airport.

Police and Fire Service were immediately summoned and four people arrested and detained meantime.

It is unclear if any person has been injured.

Local roads have been closed and police are advising members of the public not to travel to the airport. Incoming and outgoing flights have been suspended until further notice and the airport has been closed.

Strathclyde Police would like to reassure the public that it is unknown at present if this is connected with the incidents in London as enquiries are at an early stage. However, we would ask the public to remain vigilant and to report any suspicious activity to the police.

slip and turn

30th Jun 2007, 15:52

Know what you mean RT, but the Police and Whitehall have indeed been quoted by BBC as associated with some odd comments ... two vehicles collided? ... purely a criminal matter not a risk to national security ... weird

As for security at front, I guess all main airports have by now moved the thoroughfare of private vehicles away from the terminal buildings but in this case the 4x4 crossed the raised central reservation to ram the doors (per taxi driver Mr Crosby and his friend Mr Barnes on BBC). Will just have to raise the kerbs up to tank trap dimensions I guess.

PS Mr Crosby said he was in absolutely no doubt it was a terrorist incident and that is why he called the BBC.

bjcc

30th Jun 2007, 16:07

slip and turn

Agreed they have made some odd, and contridicory statements. From experience I'm afraid, it happens. The reason being some witnesses say one thing, others say another. The information is usually gleemed at first, by the force press dept from the computer logs used for by the comunications rooms, which isn't always clear in the early stages of an incident.

The officers on scene have a higher priority than the press in the first few hours. It's never a suprise that the intial information reported by the press, is therefore not the case.

slip and turn

30th Jun 2007, 16:08

Did you just hear that passenger stuck in a plane on the taxiway at Glasgow talking to BeeB? He says they've been told they can expect to be stuck there until maybe 2100! I do hope not for their sakes!

sidtheesexist

30th Jun 2007, 16:13

I think a small step is needed rather than a jump...............When somebody tries deliberately to drive a vehicle through an airport terminal entrance they have almost certainly one intention, and one only - injury, death and destruction. Now, bearing in mind the current climate and the two car incidents in London, well, IMHO it's rather obvious that this isn't just some random incident involving an escped lune!!

Self Loading Freight

30th Jun 2007, 16:17

Bluebaron

30th Jun 2007, 16:21

Great now we won't be able to get dropped off within a mile of the the terminal. One stupid idiot does something like this and it screws the thousands of people that work at the airport. At least no-one was injured.

The big question is whether he was wearing his shoes! :rolleyes:

gordonroxburgh

30th Jun 2007, 16:23

I can't understand why they're making the pax already boarded stew "until 9pm" when they'll bus them out - why not let the a/c depart? Is there a credible threat to the tower or airside in general? Or is it some emergency plan that's being followed regardless of the actual circumstances?

Probably landed, sitting on taxiway. If airport have been evacuated, then the will be no staff to meet the a/c and pax on stand...pretty straight forward really.

gordonroxburgh

30th Jun 2007, 16:26

If anyone knows glasgow airport well this is a massive own goal.

If you got back a year or so this whole area around the terminal building was drop off / pick up. For "security reasons" this are was turning into a bit of a DMZ, with only limited taxi access. Therefore giving todays idiot a chance to do what he did.

blackmail

30th Jun 2007, 16:26

slf,
the glasgow airport is closed as per notam, because the rescue fire has dropped to level 4, because most fire vehicles are obviously attending the pax teminal incident & are therefore not avail for a quick intervention on the rwy in case of. for info, normal fire level for a b737 & similar = level 7.
bm

November4

30th Jun 2007, 16:40

Warkman said at 16:46

Are you all ready for the next round of overv the top security measures following this?

What's the betting that next will be "no picking up or dropping off at the terminals" ?

17:35 Local radio reporting that Bristol Airport has closed the access road to the terminal so no picking up or dropping off....

GLAMM

30th Jun 2007, 16:45

As for whats going on the rumours are 4 guys arrested, all alive, 2 at the RAH. Airport closed until 2100. Major incident trucks set up in the taxi rank outside the Loganair hangar. Several ambulances and tent errected there as well. All access to airport closed. We've been told we can't leave in our cars. Staff and passengers were all stuck outside at assembly areas but some have been moved to areas such as the easyjet lounge.

haughtney1

30th Jun 2007, 16:48

BBC reporting that the locals wrestled both suspects to the ground before the Police arrived.

Weasel123

30th Jun 2007, 16:53

Nice comment from one of the eyewitnesses - "I put him down on the ground - with my forearm"!!

No_Speed_Restriction

30th Jun 2007, 17:10

If they had implemented "pre-airport perimeter entry" style passenger screening as they do in TLV, this would not have happened. This country has got a long way to go. Then again, its too pre-occupied with being PC than protecting its citizens. :ugh:

WALSue

30th Jun 2007, 17:22

Got to feel sorry for anyone flying Glasgow to Ibiza after a controlled explosion at the islands airport.
I assume somehting to do with Eta

GLAMM

30th Jun 2007, 17:23

There are aircraft with passengers still on board from just after three, possibly to expect to be another few hours on board. Central, domestic pier has been evacuated with passengers and staff walking across the taxi way to the fire station area

MarkD

30th Jun 2007, 17:25

would it not be practical to refuel and position to PIK/EDI and let the pax off there?

Earl

30th Jun 2007, 17:36

Breaking News >> U.S. Orders Boost of Airport Security in Wake of London, Glasgow Terrorist Acts
This on www.foxnews.com

PPRuNe Radar

30th Jun 2007, 17:36

Please try and keep this thread for 'news' and 'rumours' relating to the incident.

Opinions and rants can go on the thread in JetBlast where such comment is more suited.

If your post has disappeared from here, that's where it may have ended up ;)

armada

30th Jun 2007, 17:59

Let me guess, soon all cars will be banned from coming within 1 mile of an airport. We will all have to pass through check points and park in a secure/prison lots and pay to be bussed into the airport. Followed by a national "no-drive" list.
In order to enter a crew bus you will have to be almost strip searched and pay for biometric ID, to scan to enter into the bus. Just one of the joys of coming to work each day.

And I am sure that over 1000 people diedin car crashes around the world already today....but don't let fact get in the way. :ugh:

TUGNBAR

30th Jun 2007, 18:03

One of the attackers who was on fire was taken to Royal Alexandra Hospital, it is being reported that this hospital is now currently being evacuated.

gordonroxburgh

30th Jun 2007, 18:27

BAA GLASGOW PRESS OFFICE SAY

There are approx 12 planes on the tarmac with passengers on board.
They will not be allowed to disembark until police have boarded and checked every aircraft and done passenger profile checks.

Reheat On

30th Jun 2007, 18:30

I find it so frustrating that the management of these incidents simply dumps on the paying pax and the airside . One can understand the fire cover being compromised while the crews get to the incident, and patently it takes time to re task back to the air side. But till 2100 even for the a/c on the ramp ready to push? c'mon guys - what happened to the judgement after the incident is cooling off that airside operation can continue? If its not secure now, one has to assume its never secure!

CBS

30th Jun 2007, 18:34

Does anyone know how long the passengers are going to be kept in the terminal for?

sbh684b

30th Jun 2007, 18:50

The airport is closed now due to Airport fire trucks used to attend to the blast. Current RFF is now 4, to low for any airline.
closed till 30/2300UTC

A1535/07 NOTAMR A1534/07
Q)EGPX/QFALC/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5552N00425W005
A)EGPF
B)0706301829 C)0706302300
E)AD CLSD AND RFF (FIRE AND RESCUE EQUIPMENT)DEPLETED TO CAT 4

Ontariotech

30th Jun 2007, 19:11

Just saw footage of the fire, and the Fire Brigade trying to put it out.

In my honest, professional, opinion, that SUV contains more than just a full tank of gas, and a cloth interior. I just saw 5 fire hoses, being directly aimed into the cab of that SUV, and it's almost like a blow torch is feeding the flames. I would bet a months pay, that SUV contains something pressurized, compressed, albeit similar to the cars found in London. Give a good look at the flames on the inside....no way is that being fed by a petrol tank, or the interior material, or fanned by the wind.

Hotel Tango

30th Jun 2007, 19:12

There are approx 12 planes on the tarmac with passengers on board.
They will not be allowed to disembark until police have boarded and checked every aircraft and done passenger profile checks.

Here we go. Complete OTT reaction. Departing passengers I could understand.

Three Yellows

30th Jun 2007, 19:12

DR Liam Fox (Tory MP) reported on Sky News, that his sister and family boarded a plane at GLA around 3pm and are still on plane. Furthermore, he says that they are all going to be taken to the SECC in Glasgow for questioning and profiling.

easyprison

30th Jun 2007, 19:15

Home Office has now raised the Security level to CRITICAL.

IB4138

30th Jun 2007, 19:18

If any of these fights are heading for Spain, the airline should already have the API for every passenger available for the UK authorities as well the Spanish. That should enable a bit of fast track profiling and see whether there is anyone onboard these flights they would like to question.

west lakes

30th Jun 2007, 19:21

Give a good look at the flames on the inside....no way is that being fed by a petrol tank, or the interior material, or fanned by the wind.

probably LPG, standard Fire service SOP let it burn, if it is area will poss be sealed for 24hrs to let any intact cylinders cool

GLAMM

30th Jun 2007, 19:23

Finally home, one of the lucky ones. Our workforce of about fifteen vehicles were escorted by police in a convoy, the wrong way up the road towards St James Interchange. First we had to give names, addresses and vehicle details. Feel really sorry for everyone stuck on board aircraft but they are luckier than some. Stuck in crowded lounges with the continous fire alarm ringing for the last five hours. I think it's still some time away for these people to get out of the airport.

Also meant to add a bit of light hearted banter about what happened to the culprits when the people "restrained" them. Dont upset a scotman who has saved up all year to afford their two weeks in the sun. I'm sure there would be a queue of people there wanting to put in their fair share of "restraining" !!

MarcJF

30th Jun 2007, 19:27

As inconvienent as it may seem, the security services really have no other option than to check everything. If I was sat on one of those departing jets with my kids, I'd be frustrated and no doubt more than a little annoyed. But would hope I'd understand the need to validate everthing. Don't forget that in London, crowds fleeing from Tiger Tiger would have walked straight into the path or another bomb, had a traffic warden not booked the vehicle.

christep

30th Jun 2007, 19:50

But surely all the people arriving at Glasgow have cleared security at their departing airport? Are we saying that we don't trust that security? If so then logically we have to just stop air travel into the UK entirely.

ground_star

30th Jun 2007, 19:50

What I find quite funny is something happens in Scotland & Immediately the traffic at LHR is chaos! More than normal

http://sapphiregroup.dnsalias.net/lhr.jpg

Pax walking along the M4...brill!

Welcome to "Great" Britain folks!

mathers_wales_uk

30th Jun 2007, 20:08

Threat Rate is Now 'CRITICAL' our highest threat rate.

Reason traffic is bad around airports is that all access roads to front of airport terminals have been closed untill further notice.

Depending on how big the terminals are is to how large congestion would be in the area. Are those photo's on the M4 due to an accident or simply cause of restrictions to cars at Heathrow?

ManofMan

30th Jun 2007, 20:15

Understand that Liverpool has been closed now, aircraft currently in the hold pending further information.

Three Yellows

30th Jun 2007, 20:29

BBC News say that Merseyside Police have said that Liverpool Airport closed "until further notice"

ManofMan

30th Jun 2007, 20:31

Liverpool will remain closed until at least midnight due to a specific security threat.

SECURITY ISSUE EGGP
-------------------
.
REGULATION EGGPA30
.
TIME WEF 1925 UTC UNTIL 2359 UTC
.
REMARKS : DUE TO SECURITY ISSUE EGGP CLOSED TILL 0000 UTC.
.
FMD OPSD BRUSSELS

slip and turn

30th Jun 2007, 20:32

Do passengers still need to be detained in planes going nowhere at 2130?? Six and a quarter hours since the incident.

ManofMan

30th Jun 2007, 20:35

Hotel Tango

30th Jun 2007, 20:39

No need to use the terminal. Bus them out, under police escort if need be, to a secure area outside the airport, and then process them as required. Keeping them 6 hours or longer sitting on the ramp is just scandalous and demonstrates how inept the authorities really are.

christep

30th Jun 2007, 20:39

Do passengers still need to be detained in planes going nowhere at 2130?? Six and a quarter hours since the incident.
Nah get em all off, pile them into the terminal and hope that a secondary device does not goes off.They're far more likely to die from a heart attack from the stress.

But then rational analysis of risks has never been a strong point of the UK's "security" forces in recent times.

slip and turn

30th Jun 2007, 20:44

Evacuation through the terminal is surely only one limited option.

These people are not a threat to others or they would not have made it through security onto their planes. They require no further security clearance. They can be reunited with bags another day.

Evacuation by buses via other routes e.g. via perimeter emergency access points must surely make sense by now.

If there is any doubt, they can be profiled by the army or some such on their way out.

speeddial

30th Jun 2007, 20:55

Police press conference has just happened:

Incident is considered a terrorist act and has similarities to the incidents in London. One member of the public injured in the leg. The one suspect taken to hospital was found to have a suspicious device about his person, requiring evacuation.

The jeep contained flammable materials, which have still yet to stabilise enough for forensic investigations to begin.

Dysonsphere

30th Jun 2007, 21:33

Just seen more vidoe that was some fire even the foam layer was having problems. Latest news seems to be the airport will be closed for a few days.

cwatters

30th Jun 2007, 21:39

I expect they will find another door somewhere they can open.

GLAMM

30th Jun 2007, 21:56

Yeah, think the airport will be closed for a lot of tomorrow anyway. The jeep will need investigating then removed. The building entrance and ticket desks just inside the door are prob damaged and will need securing and heard there that the sprinklers could have been on for a few hours so check in equipment and stock etc could be damaged. Plus I know staff who have been in since six this morning are still in the airport and are expected to have to follow the passengers to the SECC for the screening process. Some of these staff will be due back on shift tomorrow so they'll be looking for a decent nights sleep after what will have been an extremely long day. Staff shortages likely for most airlines I guess

PPRuNe Radar

30th Jun 2007, 22:46

For the hard of thinking .....

Please try and keep this thread for 'news' and 'rumours' relating to the incident.

Opinions and rants can go on the thread in JetBlast where such comment is more suited.

If your post has disappeared from here, that's where it may have ended up

The emphasis of this particular Forum is ''Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots''. PPRuNe has editorial rights on what it thinks falls in to that category, both in terms of topics being raised and subsequent contributions. For those who wish to add anything else which concerns this incident but falls outwith the above (e.g. rants, stereotyping commentary, opinions, non professional pilot aspects, etc), there is a thread on JetBlast for this purpose. If PPRuNe doesn't think your post is relevant to the Rumours and News thread, then it will most likely be sent to the JetBlast one, so save yourself some time by typing things out again (with deletion likely once more) and search for your lost posts there :ok:

speedrestriction

30th Jun 2007, 22:57

RMC

30th Jun 2007, 23:18

Any fool can criticse and most fools do. The unconscious incompetent don't realise how little they know.

We all know it is frustrating if you are kept on board an aircraft etc but if there is any doubt there is no doubt. People will have to endure some inconvenience until our uniformed services do everything they think they need to do.

A serious crime scene needs to be preserved and if there is a 1 in 1,000 chance ( rather more than you having a V1 cut ) of getting a key bit of forensic/information or protecting people from a secondary explosion then closing the airport is the way its got to be.

With regard to disruption this is small beer. A bit of fog in November causes more disruption than this. The security services some are criticisng have prevented many attacks on our people over the last few years and they haven't done that by being gash but by being thorough.

Although I am one of the most highly qualified people in the UK aviation industry what that has taught me is actually how little I really know.I am a conscious incompetent but will not be rising to any bait by the people who throw all the stones.They actually don't have answers that hold water under anything other than superficial analysis. I put the last paragraph in because like all the UC/ICs we fly with they don't realise how shallow their reactionary perception is and am not interested in engaging with lost causes.:ugh:

Two's in

1st Jul 2007, 02:12

Reasonable to assume after last year's "liquids" fiasco that we can expect some major disruptions at all airports while the Government comes up with the counter measure to this. Just thinking how most UK Airports will operate when vehicle access is severely curtailed and/or controlled doesn't bode well for the Industry over the next few weeks. Of course. the fact that the subsequent counter measure will be directed at the previous method of attack seems to be largely lost on the security advisors.

If you are the type to get excited over your treatment with 100ml of shampoo, you might want to get a book on yoga before going to work tomorrow.

Halfwayback

1st Jul 2007, 08:42

Of course. the fact that the subsequent counter measure will be directed at the previous method of attack seems to be largely lost on the security advisors.

Of course it has to be reactive! You would be the first to condemn a repeat, mirror attack.

If you already know what, or where, the next attack will be perhaps you could enlighten us lesser-mortals.

HWB

callyoushortly

1st Jul 2007, 10:19

Pretty serious knock on effect in EDI with diverted flights. Airport road at a standstill. No public vehicle access within about 1/4 mile of the terminal building. Police doing a good job under difficult circumstances.

Not strictly true......
3 diverted flights is hardly serious knock on.

Airport road was at a standstill, but mainly due to the Tiesto trance/hardcore gig next door at the Royal Highland showground. 10,000 expected there...... most people walking the roads around EDI were heading there, not to the airport which is notoriously quiet on a Saturday afternoon/evening.

slip and turn

1st Jul 2007, 10:45

Note: This post contains a small bit of news but feel free to relegate it to JetBlast if there's not enough to keep it here!

First, in the interest of promoting broader understanding, I've just been striving to interpret RMC's complaint ...

Gash is a slang term in English. It is normally used, chiefly in Scotland, to refer to the inane, stupid or rubbish (per wikiP) ... didn't know that one ... I can now see that making a gash gash in perimeter security to let the passengers out might have been a tad gash in more ways than one.

When RMC writes "all the unconscious incompetents we fly with", did he mean SLF?

TV news this morning shows there's possibly a full half mile queue of shuffling *+/-UC/SLF waiting patiently to get into Glasgow airport right now, 20 hours after yesterday's attack. Stalwarts the lot of them! However, I can't help thinking, perhaps gashly, that the now exposed queue reminds me of unprotected queues in Iraq - it's just another kind of secondary target, but hopefully one that doesn't become a regular feature of heightened airport terminal security.

I am sure we do all appreciate it is a messy problem for the principal authorities to have to deal with.

*+/- = more or less

No_Speed_Restriction

1st Jul 2007, 11:54

Whats the point of profiling now, after the incident. clueless.

The Otter's Pocket

1st Jul 2007, 14:39

Although I am one of the most highly qualified people in the UK aviation industry

- RMC get a life and grow up, all you have managed to spout is drivel - I am sure that if Sky TV need an "Aviation Expert" I will put your name forward...:}

Basil

1st Jul 2007, 14:40

Although I am one of the most highly qualified people in the UK aviation industry
We'll try to bear that in mind.

Wonder if these people London & GLA were trying to initiate a fuel air (thermobaric) explosion. Thankfully, and obviously, it's more difficult to achieve than their attempt suggests they thought.

Two's in

1st Jul 2007, 14:55

If you already know what, or where, the next attack will be perhaps you could enlighten us lesser-mortals.
HWB

HWB, My point is simply that vehicle cordons are a technology and technique that have been effective for at least 30 years, and yes, I would have put a small wager on vehicles being used as a delivery method for the current terror attacks a long time ago. Despite the daily carnage in Iraq, 25 years of the PIRA attacks, and events in the Middle East for many years, BAA, the Police and the Home Office have now been surprised that Airports are vulnerable to this type of attack.

Prevention requires a few hundred tons of Concrete, a few miles of razor wire, diligent and well trained personnel controlling the limited access points and the moral fibre to pi$$ off a large precentage of air travellers on a daily basis while neutralising the threat. It is because nobody seems prepared to accept that the last factor will have a serious financial impact on Airlines and the supporting infrastructure that it hasn't been done. I prefer that explanation, than to think that this type of attack was never considered by the security services.

El Al are unlikely to reveal what the cost of effective anti-terror measures are, but you can be sure that they are considered to be a "cost of doing business". If the authorities weren't quite so infatuated with the profit and tax to be made on a Litre of Gin, they might instead have invested some money on preventitive security advice and measures. Because they haven't, the media today is publishing the shock and outrage coverage of a wholly preventable and predictable attack.

Employing security advisors to prevent the same thing happening again is simply not good enough (be it the Government or BAA). There are resources available to apply intelligent forward-thinking counter measures that will at a bare minimum, make the perpatrators of these events struggle to come up with an executable plan, and at best prevent it completely. The MO of these current attacks is far from highly-polished and well planned, and that is the level of opportunistic targetting that is the easiest to defeat with some very basic counter measures.

While we still consider the inconvenience of making people walk 500 metres (you could run a shuttle bus of course) to be higher than the risk of a car bomb, we will continue to be vulnerable. And to answer your question, yes, sadly I can already conceive how these people can improve on their performance, I just hope that those whose job it is to predict and prevent this, can too. While we refuse to accept that we do need to change our lifestyles to counter these attacks (because then the terrorists have "won" you see) we will continue to be vulnerable. Fortress Britain may be an inconvenient and frustrating place to live, but not as inconvenient and frustrating as providing DNA samples to identify your loved ones after these people have been more successful.

Don't confuse Terror with Deterrence - you can easily learn to live with one, but not the other.

PaperTiger

1st Jul 2007, 15:13

While we still consider the inconvenience of making people walk 500 metres (you could run a shuttle bus of course) to be higher than the risk of a car bomb, we will continue to be vulnerable.Relocating the dropoff/pickup area simply relocates the target.

Two's in

1st Jul 2007, 15:20

Agree, but to outside the cleared, concentrated target area.

Nov71

1st Jul 2007, 15:21

MAN have banned private vehicles dropping off?/pick up at terminals for several months. You have to pay ££ to enter/leave the car park then the pax have to use the terminal shuttle bus. I don't know if this was a suggested security measure but it certainly has increased car park revenue

PaperTiger

1st Jul 2007, 15:36

Agree, but to outside the cleared, concentrated target area.Which would be little consolation to the people blown up.

Dysonsphere

1st Jul 2007, 16:11

speedbird_481_papa

1st Jul 2007, 16:28

Latest statement from the BAA Glasgow page:

Situation at Glasgow Airport
The main terminal at Glasgow Airport has now re-opened following an extensive clean-up operation, less than 24 hours after the airport was attacked.
All 39 check-in desks are now fully operational. Passengers are now being processed in Terminal 1 and T2, and all 64 airport check-in desks are functioning.
Anyone uncertain about the status of their flight should not travel to the airport. Similarly, friends and relatives are advised not to travel to the airport, unless absolutely necessary.
For further information please click here (http://www.glasgowairport.com/portal/controller/dispatcher.jsp?CiID=8a63221fc3873110VgnVCM10000036821c0a____&ChID=2170453e491d3010VgnVCM10000036821c0a____&Ct=B2C_CT_PRESS_RELEASE&CtID=a22889d8759a0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____&Ch=Glasgow+Press+Releases&ChPath=Home%5EGLA%5EGlasgow+Press+Releases&ChIDPath=caf397dc2eb12010VgnVCM100000147e120a____%5E741697dc 2eb12010VgnVCM100000147e120a____%5E2170453e491d3010VgnVCM100 00036821c0a____)

So it looks like it is business as usual again now. However, I work at EGGD/BRS and just come back from the airport and there are huge concrete bollards at the enterances to the terminals to prevent vhiecular access in a simmillar way that happened at Glasgow and the forecourt is completley closed and even staff may be subject to a random car search, as I was earlier today:\

Regards

Gareth

anotherthing

1st Jul 2007, 17:13

HalfwayBack and twos in

You are both correct... In many circumstances security measures will be reactive.... We would be very silly if we did not try to learn from past incidents. We have armed forces who are recognised as being the best in urban (street to street) warfare. This evolved mainly because of the troubles in NI.

However, rest assured that the security forces et al will not just rely on reactive measures... they have and will continue to develop strategies on perceived or possible threats.... however, they will never be specific about such measures in the public forum for obvious reasons!

stagger

1st Jul 2007, 17:16

Wonder if these people London & GLA were trying to initiate a fuel air (thermobaric) explosion. Thankfully, and obviously, it's more difficult to achieve than their attempt suggests they thought.

It seems possible that the people responsible for the current attacks had similar ideas to Dhiren Barot who was jailed for 40 years recently…

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6123236.stm

Thankfully, it seems they are also no more intelligent than Barot who was jailed for planning a number of attacks. His written plans (released after the trial with some parts redacted) were mostly incoherent and crazy. He did have some ideas about initiating a fuel air (thermobaric) explosion but they consisted of…

Using stretch limos to be inconspicuous.:confused:
Loading them with gas cylinders.
Putting barbeque charcoal under the cylinders, soaked in petrol
AND smearing the cylinders with napalm.
AND scattering some fireworks in the car.
AND lighting the charcoal to heat the cylinders to make them explode.
AND letting the gas out slowly to fill the area (it wasn't clear whether he wanted to try this after lighting the charcoal:uhoh:, or wanted to try to light the charcoal under the now empty cylinders in a gas-filled area before making his escape):eek:
AND blowing up the cylinders with conventional explosives
AND hanging around with a rifle to shoot them in case none of this works:confused:
AND making his escape after shooting them and triggering the explosion:ugh:
AND painting the cylinders yellow so people will think they might be something biological/toxic

He couldn’t seem to make up his mind whether he wanted to let the gas out an initiate a fuel air (thermobaric) explosion or instead just blow the cylinders up. His detailed plans really just amounted to some ideas about sticking lots of things that he could think of that might burn or explode in the back of a limo.

The Otter's Pocket

1st Jul 2007, 21:40

These bombs that you are all talking about are almost impossible to make and detonate correctly. Fortunately the enemy within don't know this.

However the controlling forces in the UK do and these people are more dangerous to our...as GB put it "our British way of life".

All they have been able to do is create a car fire, no larger than in Liverpool, Manchester or Glasgow on a saturday night.

This is all food for politicians.

Carnage Matey!

2nd Jul 2007, 01:34

All they have been able to do is create a car fire, no larger than in Liverpool, Manchester or Glasgow on a saturday night.

And you believe the fact that they wanted to create carnage but weren't actually able to do so means it's all OK then?

Airbubba

2nd Jul 2007, 03:07

Maybe Prague is on the hit list as well:

...As ABCNews.com reported, U.S. law enforcement officials received intelligence reports two weeks ago warning of terror attacks in Glasgow and Prague, the Czech Republic, against "airport infrastructure and aircraft."

The warnings apparently never reached officials in Scotland, who said this weekend they had received "no advance intelligence" that Glasgow might be a target.

Homeland Security Secretary Chertoff declined to comment specifically on on the report today, but said "everything that we get is shared virtually instantaneously with our counterparts in Britain and vice versa."...

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=3336148

warkman

2nd Jul 2007, 09:07

The good news from these attacks seems to be that they do not have access as the Scum (IRA) did to Semtex or C4.
The request by the authorities for people not to use their cars but use public transport instead is horrific. More people in one place, and carnage can be huge in busses/trains.

I suppose we are lucky that they have gone for what are high profile targets than other targets which whilst not high profile would cause more panic and distress.

Looking at the Cherokee, it looks like they hit the edge wall of the entrance, if it was more straight on, it looks like it would have gone into the terminal itself.

sky9

2nd Jul 2007, 12:42

I am amazed to see that the Glasgow fire was being hosed to little effect with what appears to be water. Is there any reason why they didn't use the same foam that should be used for aircraft fires? They didn't seem to have nearly as much success as I did recently with a 1 kg of dry power.

I was always told that you didn't use water to put out a petrol fire.

CarltonBrowne the FO

2nd Jul 2007, 14:37

Looks like the arsonist who set fire to the 145 at GLA a couple of years ago did us a favour after all. Ever since, the cops and airport security have been much more vehicle-aware. The layout at the front is annoying, but I think the zig-zagging required to get into it probably slowed the Jeep down enough it did not have the inertia to get inside.
Please note, all the above is merely speculation on my part.

llondel

2nd Jul 2007, 15:16

I wonder if the current rebuild of the front of Heathrow T3 is about to get a hasty rethink, or whether they'd already planned to make it harder to get in with a vehicle? Hindsight is amazingly effective, sometimes.

WHBM

2nd Jul 2007, 15:35

The attack at Glasgow was amateurish and should not be used to determine airport layout and the spending of vast sums.

A simple line of bollards (like you see in pedestrian areas in cities) on say 2m spacing inside the kerb line would suffice to stop vehicle penetration towards any building, while still allowing free access for pedestrians to/from the vehicles. Just install them sufficiently inside the kerb line to allow vehicle doors to open (I offer this advice as it is apparent that airport operators generally do not have a clue about such matters). A contractor could install these along the complete terminal frontage at Glasgow and elsewhere in a few days and usage of the roadway be resumed as normal - and hasn't the government said they want to continue as normal.

Unfortunately a number of airport operators have seized a heaven-sent opportunity today to increase their revenue after this incident and direct all incoming vehicles into their short-term car parks to drop off, where the users have to pay. Airports have long had the drop-off traffic in their sights as yet another revenue stream to plunder, and this has given them the chance to slip it in while pretending it is all in aid of security. This is a completely unacceptable approach, to profiteer on the back of the events in Glasgow.

mathers_wales_uk

2nd Jul 2007, 17:33

Unfortunately a number of airport operators have seized a heaven-sent opportunity today to increase their revenue after this incident and direct all incoming vehicles into their short-term car parks to drop off, where the users have to pay. Airports have long had the drop-off traffic in their sights as yet another revenue stream to plunder, and this has given them the chance to slip it in while pretending it is all in aid of security. This is a completely unacceptable approach, to profiteer on the back of the events in Glasgow.

It is the DFT that has not allowed any privatly owned traffic to drive in front of the terminals of the UK airports. And just like to point out that not all airports have an instant parking charge policy at their short stay car parks. e.g. CWL that has the first 30 mins free ( more than enough to drop passengers or pick them up).

Many car parks at airports are operested by Private company's such as NCP. Wouldn't the airport advise them of what charges to apply as long as long as the parking companies get their fare share of the profit.

Carnage Matey!

2nd Jul 2007, 23:55

A simple line of bollards (like you see in pedestrian areas in cities) on say 2m spacing inside the kerb line would suffice to stop vehicle penetration towards any building, while still allowing free access for pedestrians to/from the vehicles. Just install them sufficiently inside the kerb line to allow vehicle doors to open (I offer this advice as it is apparent that airport operators generally do not have a clue about such matters). A contractor could install these along the complete terminal frontage at Glasgow and elsewhere in a few days and usage of the roadway be resumed as normal - and hasn't the government said they want to continue as normal.

Great idea! The terrorists will never think of getting a car that is less than 2m wide! I can see them now, ramming their Hummer against the bollards trying to access the building. Lets hope they don't use something narrow like a Jeep Cherokee. I wonder how effective bollards are against a car bomb adjacent to the building.

Lets get real here. Even our in-house security publications warned of the vulnerability of terminal buildings to VBIEDS over 2 years ago, yet nothing meaningful has been done at many UK airports to stop someone pulling up right outside. If we knew about it the authorities certainly knew about it, but it costs money to take effective preventative measures. The Glasgow attack has simply demonstrated what happens when you take half-hearted measures to counter a very real threat.

stilton

3rd Jul 2007, 00:19

I am flying a trip into Manchester from the US this week.

Wondering what we might expect as Pilots for a US airline now in the way of extra delays / hassles with enhanced security.

Any information would be welcome

ORAC

3rd Jul 2007, 01:15

TopBunk

3rd Jul 2007, 03:13

The aviation risk remains unchanged, it is the general risk category that has been changed. However, do not expect your transport to the hotel to drop you off/pick you up directly outside the terminal.

Runway 31

3rd Jul 2007, 06:35

They used water to extinguish the flames as there was not that much petrol about. Other factors to be considered were that they were at a car which had rammed the building and could explode anytime and it could be easily seen that there were gas jets emmiting from the side of the vehicle. Therefore water was used from behind whatever cover was available. Hose reels were used initially as time is required to set into a fire hydrant, a reel will provide water for some 20 minutes while the main line would empty the tank in 30 seconds. The appliances carry foam tanks and they were subsequentl;y used but this had to wait until the appliances were connected to hydrants.

sky9

3rd Jul 2007, 11:32

Thanks for the info, it did seem from the TV pictures that the water was doing very little to put the fire out.

Mini fan

3rd Jul 2007, 16:10

Unfortunately a number of airport operators have seized a heaven-sent opportunity today to increase their revenue after this incident and direct all incoming vehicles into their short-term car parks to drop off, where the users have to pay. Airports have long had the drop-off traffic in their sights as yet another revenue stream to plunder, and this has given them the chance to slip it in while pretending it is all in aid of security. This is a completely unacceptable approach, to profiteer on the back of the events in Glasgow.

Totally agree, Liverpool currently has some sort of work going on where the normal pick up/drop off is so all traffic is directed to the car park. However, they have changed the pricing so the 1st 10 minutes is free and made a pick up/drop off point in the car park. That's what all of the airports should be doing.

randomair

3rd Jul 2007, 22:40

With the current issues regarding the 'terrorist doctors', who naturally would have to get through a certain degree of screening. (Be is security or psychiatric)

It seems to me that if these people can get jobs as doctors, how difficult would it be for them to be employed as airline pilots and do the unthinkable?

Possibly they were doctors before they joined the dark side, but if doctors can be persuaded to join the extremist group then the same could surely apply to pilots...possibly a pointless discussion but surely valid?

RoyHudd

4th Jul 2007, 07:31

Pointless, not valid

Avman

4th Jul 2007, 08:18

Sorry Roy, but I believe it's very valid! It most probably will happen sometime in the not too distant future, and no present security system will be able to prevent it.

DarkStar

4th Jul 2007, 13:48

Roy, I have to say your retort is pointless and invalid. Sadly, as a pilot myself we must accept that AQ are capable of placing any operative into any profession including ours. Like it or not, it's the sad truth and although we may all kick up about Airport Security and the assoc. aggro, we have little else to defend us and the travelling public.

The World has changed, much for the worse and I cannot see an answer in the short or medium term - possibly a generation.

Depressing thought...:(

STN Ramp Rat

4th Jul 2007, 18:18

Snowploughs blocking the RVP
Driving past a well known airport tonight I see that the RVP gate is now blocked by a snowplough. Is this a case of security over safety? One supposes that if the keys for the gate an snowplough are kept together that’s fine but if not .....

cargo boy

4th Jul 2007, 18:40

...we must accept that AQ are capable of placing any operative into any profession including ours. Like it or not, it's the sad truth and although we may all kick up about Airport Security and the assoc. aggro, we have little else to defend us and the travelling public.
Errr... if AQ are going to put a 'sleeper' in as a pilot, how is the current security regime going to stop him? Oh, soryy, I forgot, he won't have any of that darned exploding toothpaste so he won't be able to manoeuvre the a/c and do the necessary damage. :rolleyes:

As I mentioned on the other post about security, all we have is "Terror Theatre" which is managed by incompetents. Their only skills are smoke and mirrors vaudeville which they hope no one will ever really expose for the sham that it really is.

Like lambs to the slaughter, the travelling public follow the government hype and flock like sheep through the 'security' imposed on them at airports, all in the name of generating more money for those making the decisions. The terrorists have won and it is purely thanks to the failings of these pathetic decision makers who implement 'airport security theatre'.

EDIspotter

4th Jul 2007, 20:25

STN Ramp Rat - Reply No 96.....

EDI has one of its gates currently blocked airside by a roadsweeper, seems to be becoming common over the past few days.

Avman

4th Jul 2007, 21:28

all we have is "Terror Theatre" which is managed by incompetents. Their only skills are smoke and mirrors vaudeville which they hope no one will ever really expose for the sham that it really is.
Like lambs to the slaughter, the travelling public follow the government hype and flock like sheep through the 'security' imposed on them at airports, all in the name of generating more money for those making the decisions. The terrorists have won and it is purely thanks to the failings of these pathetic decision makers who implement 'airport security theatre'.
:D My sentiments exactly Cargo Boy. I recently flew out of BHX and I just had to laugh at the pityful new security measures designed to save us all from destruction. In actual fact, it won't in the least stop a determined suicidal vehicle attack on the terminal. And even if the baddies couldn't get close to the terminal they just have to detonate a car bomb in the now hopelessly overcrowded short stay car park (now used as the pick-up and drop-off area) which is teeming with people. It's all so pathetic. It won't be long before they will create drop-off / pick-up areas 5 miles from airports! But then they had better remember to ensure that they x-ray all baggage and persons before they reach the terminal!

ChristiaanJ

4th Jul 2007, 21:38

What about a delivery truck full of all those goodies you now are obliged to buy "airside"? Certainly won't be going into the short-term carpark, with the stuff being carrried inside package by package by the driver :)
Admittedly, blowing it up at the delivery point won't kill as many people, but it would still make an almighty mess.

Yeah, let's have a five-mile perimeter, including for the airside goodies shops vultures.

Brian Abraham

5th Jul 2007, 02:52

but if doctors can be persuaded to join the extremist group then the same could surely apply to pilots...possibly a pointless discussion but surely valid?

Has a point Roy, as unlikely as it may be. Remember Silk 737 and Egypt 767. Also the unsuccessful Fedex DC-10 attempt. We don't know with certainty what made some of them do what they did but it's only a small step for those inclined to make randomairs proposition a reality.

Airbubba

5th Jul 2007, 07:29

If the powers in charge judge on religion, or proven stats then those guilty in the past are labeled accordingly.

Before it was the young uneducated people that was blamed for this.

Now everyone is under suspicion, Doctors! This is such a shame on there profession.

That's a good observation. In the politically correct media religion of the perps is barely mentioned and the 'diversity' of the 'militants' is reported, for example:

They had diverse backgrounds, coming from countries around the globe, but all shared youth and worked in medicine. They also had a common goal, authorities suspect: to bring havoc and death to the heart of Britain.

The eight people held Tuesday in the failed car bombing plot include one doctor from Iraq and two from India. There is a physician from Lebanon and a Jordanian doctor and his medical assistant wife. Another doctor and a medical student are thought to be from the Middle East.

http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/176717.html

India has suffered from attacks, including aircraft hijackings, by 'radical Islamic militants' for decades. It is ironic that the Glasgow terrorists are branded as 'Indian Doctors' in current media reports. Most Indian doctors are not Muslim so this attempt to group them with radical terrorist wackos is most unfair.

Desertia

5th Jul 2007, 08:06

Was this the Silk 737 that cost that FCU manufacturer all that money?

Rockhound

5th Jul 2007, 17:17

B Abraham,
Where did you get the idea that the Silk Air pilot was a member of an extremist group?
Rockhound:*

CaptKremin

5th Jul 2007, 17:41

If you know a pilot who sympathises with the insurgents in Iraq, and is against the Iraq war - would you worry? Would you report him to the security authorities?

Where does it end?

HowlingWind

5th Jul 2007, 18:17

Where did you get the idea that the Silk Air pilot was a member of an extremist group?Mr. Rockhound, where did you get the idea Mr. Abraham was alleging such? I believe he is simply saying that if some pilots are capable of such acts on their own behalf one would truly have to have their heads in the sand (or elsewhere) to insist some couldn't somehow be coerced, persuaded, or otherwise influenced to do evil bidding on behalf of others. Is that really so hard to accept? :ugh:

Brian Abraham

5th Jul 2007, 18:29

Thanks Howling. Thats the trouble with communication, sometimes it isn't. He wrote, but he read etc. :{

lamina

5th Jul 2007, 19:14

'It seems to me that if these people can get jobs as doctors, how difficult would it be for them to be employed as airline pilots and do the unthinkable?'
Exactly:D So do you think preventing crew taking 105ml of toothpaste, nail clippers etc. on board is going to stop an incident?:ugh:
There we go again, full circle, whats the point in subjecting crew too over the top security (far worse than pax). Answers to Transec please!

Ron & Edna Johns

5th Jul 2007, 23:52

What exactly is it about aircraft/airports/aircrew that sends the powers-that-be into a spin? Based on what I've observed going on in the UK during the last week, the following measures should be implemented:

(a) no vehicles should be permitted to be parked outside any nightclubs, or indeed outside any other soft targets in the London CBD;

(b) extend (a) above to every other city in the UK;

(c) all doctors (no matter of UK or foreign origin) should submit to security searches of their vehicles prior to taking control of such vehicles;

(d) all doctors should be required to wear the equivalent of a aviation security pass when behind the wheel of their vehicle;

(e) all vehicles entering the London CBD should be security checked for explosives;

(f) extend (e) above to every other city in the UK.

Instead, what do we do? We just move vehicle access a milli-poofteenth back from one of thousands of soft targets (airport terminals). Ain't gonna fix the fundamental problem. Next time the "doctors" are just going to drive the Landrovers into a school yard, or a night club, or a hospital lobby.....

Can't ANYONE in power see the folly in all these "security" measures? Of course (a) to (f) are nonsensical, and that is precisely my point - you will never deal with this problem by acting reactively after each latest event.

Andu

6th Jul 2007, 04:10

I have to agree with Ron and Edna's comments - but sadly, I suspect their irony will lost on many outside the aviation industry. (For instance, I'd love to see your average Harley Street specialist being made to remove his shoes out on the street outside his rooms every time goes to work!)

On another point,the following comment should send shivers down the spines of many who who can't go for nine hours plus without a biological break and who fly for airlines from a part of the world that Political Correctness forbids me to name.If you know a pilot who sympathises with the insurgents in Iraq, and is against the Iraq war - would you worry?I regularly fly with many such pilots - frequently might be a better word - and even before this latest development, it's occurred to on more than one occasion when I've been waiting for the little red light to change to green and it's taken a little longer than usual to do so whether it is in fact going to change to green and i'm going to be left standing outside the cockpit door (for what might turn out to be the rest of my life).

The current 'impregnable cockpit' security setup is a double-edged sword with potentially tragic consequences when the solitary person sometimes behind that 'impregnable' door is a young man of deeply-held political or -dare I say it? - rel*g*ous convictions.

The EgyptAir 990 crash occurred in 1999, two years before the events of September 11th 2001 sent the security system into its current tail chasing madness, and the main defence of the Egyptians to 'prove' the FO did not purpously cause the crash was that people of that religion Political Correctness forbids us from naming don't commit suicide as it is against the teachings of their holy book.

Most would agree that events on and since September 11th 2001 would seem to have put a hole the size of a 767 fueslage in that argument, yet no one in authority seems to have looked back on that accident with the benefit of post 9/11 hindsight and asked the question "Was he got at in some way by somone who convinced him, for whatever reasons, to tke the actions he took that day?"

Airbubba

6th Jul 2007, 07:55

If you know a pilot who sympathises with the insurgents in Iraq, and is against the Iraq war - would you worry?

No, I fly with Democrats all the time.:)

Most would agree that events on and since September 11th 2001 would seem to have put a hole the size of a 767 fueslage in that argument, yet no one in authority seems to have looked back on that accident with the benefit of post 9/11 hindsight and asked the question "Was he got at in some way by somone who convinced him, for whatever reasons, to tke the actions he took that day?"

This question was raised here immediately after 9-11 but the thread was quickly moved then closed, perhaps due to the political sensitivity of the subject:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=36001

Some of the early speculation on a terrorist cause of the SU990 crash involved a mysterious unscheduled stop at "Edwards Air Force Base" breathlessly reported first by CNN correspondent Ben Wedeman. It turns out the plane made a fuel stop at EWR, Newark, New Jersey.

There is also the report that a couple of dozen senior military officers were onboard returning from briefings and training in the U.S. This would be nothing unusual for an Allied flag carrier from my experience.

Gamal El-Batouti had been caught more than once exposing himself to girls and women at the layover hotel in Manhattan, one of the incidents is detailed on page five of this FBI report:

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/ea990/docket/Ex_14A_add3.pdf

He was within four months of retiring as an FO and perhaps flying home to a hearing that would cause him to lose his pension. This strikes me as very similar to Auburn Calloway at FedEx, he had a hearing scheduled where he could lose his job for falsifying his employment history.

Of course, at the time, El-Batouti was portrayed as a great family man, e.g.:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,34804,00.html?iid=chix-sphere

And, we were reminded that Muslims did not commit suicide.