Changing from Mil to Civil

[blackpants]

Hi there,
Sorry if these questions have been asked before, I have searched the forums with mixed results, but not found anything which answers my questions directly. So here goes...
I have been in for 4 years on a 16 yr comission and am starting to have second thoughts. Fully qualified terminal ATCO.
1) What is involved in the PVR process? I don't fancy raising my head above the parapet just yet but would like to know from anyone who has recently done this what it was like. Particularly the length of service you have to return and what if any objections they can make, get another OOA out of you or just point blank refuse.
2) Once I am on my way out of the mob. Is the selection process for NATS similar to that of the RAF. If I passed that fairly easily is it likely that I will get through the NATS one. Do they attach any stigma to people leaving early?
3) Is there any concessions made for my previous controlling experience, or do I have to do the exact same course as everyone else at Hurn?
Many thanks in advance for your answers. I am sure that they may well throw up more questions.
BP

[ATCO Fred]

Blackpants

Check PM - I have something that may interest you!

Fred

[cottam approach]

Does anyone know of any ex-mil ATCO's failing at the college and rejoining the RAF? Does the service you accrued before leaving return to zero if so? I start at the college next year and am concerned about the prospect of life after the college (or Swanwick) if I don't make the grade.

[London Mil]

Cottam, there's desperate and there's desperate. :eek:

[cottam approach]

there is helpful and then there is totally unhelpful :ugh:

[London Mil]

OK, I'll be unhelpful.

1. No, but why should they want to take you back? I presume you are leaving at an option point or have you PVR'd?
2. Read the books (they're online). Failing that, ask you Chief Clerk.

[cottam approach]

Why take me back? who knows.........we are clearly very flush with people. Perhaps for my sense of humour and stylish haircut.

Look online or speak to the Chief Clerk? Thanks Lon mil, i'll give that a go. Perhaps i'll try JPA as well? Or I could ask the Barman at the Bowl?

[SACrIGGER]

JPA?? I think the only answer from that dear old system will be...

Computer Says No!!

[London Mil]

Cottam, my point is that you're already planning to return to the military if it goes pear-shaped with NATS. If I were NATS, I would be questioning whether you had the right attitude to start one of our very expensive courses. If I were military (oh, I am), I would be asking whether I wanted you back for exactly the same reasons.

who knows.........we are clearly very flush with people

Don't talk yourself up. The military are quite capable of cutting their nose off to spite.

I would have thought you would have it figured by now. Being a controller (civil or military) isn't like stacking shelves in Tesco. Most of us want to see a bit of commitment.

[cottam approach]

Don't really see your point on this issue London Mil. I am about to give up a very rewarding and fairly well payed job that I have thoroughly enjoyed for something that I want more. Having a concern about passing at Hurn and then at Swanwick is completely rational in my eyes.....why wouldn't I explore every possibility now? I owe nothing to the military, and I fully appreciate that the Mil owes nothing to me! Lucky for me that YOU are not my potential employer! :=

[London Mil]

I think you have summed-up where I'm coming from quite nicely. You are giving up something which your current employer has spent time and effort on. You admit you have found this rewarding. You are now going to another employer to do a similar job although this employer is required to expend a similar amount of time and effort getting you trained. Now if you fail, your plan is to return to your first employer.
Give me one good reason why your first employer should take you back. By leaving for another ANSP (you still haven't answered my PVR vs. Option question) you have indicated that you feel your current role as 'second best'.
Try getting through a job interview with M&S where your opening gambit is that you would prefer to work for Waitrose.
Lucky for you that I'm not your current employer!;)

[cottam approach]

You are giving up something which your current employer has spent time and effort on

Do you think I owe the military the rest of my working life?

By leaving for another ANSP (you still haven't answered my PVR vs. Option question) you have indicated that you feel your current role as 'second best'.


How does this indicate that I view my current role as second best when you do not know my reasons for leaving?

I am aware of people rejoining the Mob when civil life has not worked out for one reason or another. Life is not so black and white London Mil. Perhaps you have been instituationalized by too many years of loyal service!

[45 before POL]

cottam, there has been a few that return to mil service......but they have been the ones that complete either their 16 years and decide to venture out and try new avenues and found it has not quite worked out as planned. Returning though has been on the services terms, and not necessarily a smooth return. If you pvr or cut short your contract then it is unlikely(but not impossible) they will take you back. Commitment is a big thing and not a case of owing them anything.
As for going civil, it is a case of what you really want at the end of the day. It s a gamble, and a lot of hard work, also a pay cut to start. Could you handle your mil salary dropping to 10k p.a for nine months, increasing to 18k for another 2-3 years?
Secondly thinking of failure before a start is not a good view to take even if you are trying to cover all bases.
If you do go for it best bet is to go through the application process and tests if offered a place then negotiate a date to start with your boss/personnel and Nats(if this is the company you are thinking of joining)
you will find nats are amenable to waiting and you will be amazed what
an offer of employment will do to speed things up.:E

[cottam approach]

Thanks for the comments. I applied and was successful. It's not a case of deciding to leave or not, I had already made my mind up in that respect I just thought it prudent to be aware of all my options should the unfortunate happen and I don't make the grade! Makes sense that it would be difficult to rejoin (especially after PVR) just worth knowing the reality of it after hearing so many rumours through the gossip network.

[45 before POL]

Cottam...a pragmatic approach is fair enough.
Having seen ex mil go through the college.....numbers that pass at the college that i have seen over the last 3 years have been pretty high. Only known 2 ex raf that failed at the college in that period....before that is a different story:sad: If you have the right motivation and determination you have a very good chance of passing at the college. When you go to your unit, this is where it has huge differences and a number have fallen by the side..quote from a valid ex mil " its doable"

[Voroff]

NATS might post him to scotland but they won't send him anywhere hot and sandy :)

[ATCO Fred]

Cottom Approach - you have a PM.;)

[tired-flyboy]

Just a question; (edit for Blackpants)
You have only served 1/4 of your commission how would NATS see this as loyalty and commitment.

If you were to go to the NATS interview stage and they asked your reasons for leaving the Mil, you could bring in questions about loyalty etc.

Remember that NATS is now a commercial entity and they will be looking for a commitment from you (longer than 4 years!).

They will invest (if you are successful) quite a bit of money into you (your Mil licence means diddly squat! - although you might get exemptions in some exams) and if you cannot prove your commitment to the company in a convincing way then you may get overlooked for an ab initio.

Just my tuppence worth but on a more positive note you may not get back into a blue suit but you could always apply for any AVO posts or get onto the database of employment agencies who specialise in ATCO recruitment.
:ok:

PM me if you want the name.

[Raven30]

tired flyboy

I would have thought that NATS would be able to see quite clearly that his commitment was long term - lets face it, for the salary he's going to be earning for the first 3 years he's obviously not in it for a short term gain! Added to which, giving up a very promising career in military ATC is not a decision to be taken lightly.

BTW, I think you have mixed up some of the posts - your last post refers to 2 different people.

Cottam
The best of luck - not that you will need it.

Raven

[cottam approach]

you should re-read the thread. I never mentioned anything about the time I served nor the tours I have completed. -1.

[tired-flyboy]

your correct, you didn't !! :ugh:

I've edited the post to reflect what i really meant.

Apologies to you:

[cottam approach]

No problem! :)

Raven, Thankyou for your kind words. :ok:

[alfie1999]

check your pm's cottam.

[skodasfinesthour]

I am sick and tired of the reading the mindless S&*te that some people (eg london mil) put on this forum...especially when others are seeking a genuine answer or at least civil (like the pun!) debate.....

Cottam Approach, don't worry about making the transition to civil ATC... I can't speak for the NATS side of things...but take a deep breath, remember all those things you have learnt during your time in the mob about ATC and be ready to pick various bits out when required at the college. It will be tough, but if you have given up a lot (I too PVR'd to take the plunge), that will be enough of an incentive to keep going.

Remember that once the training bit has all past and you are sitting as a validated controller somewhere in a few years time, you will almost certainly be enjoying a new career, probably earning a salary that the "Senior Officer" cadre of the ATC branch could only dream of......

As ATCO Fred once said......fortune favours the brave!

:ok:

[ATCO Fred]

Skoda man is spot on – (we were at the BAE college together). ADI conversion is relative straight forward - the difficult bit is getting your head around the job market and making the first break through, although at the end I think we all had more than one job offer. See the PM I sent you yesterday - if you are SERIOUS about making the break we (Skodaman, I and others) have all the information you need to make an INFORMED decision.
Fred
PS Did you know Skoda man doesn't actually drive a Skoda.
I am sick and tired of the reading the mindless S&*te that some people (eg london mil) put on this forum...especially when others are seeking a genuine answer or at least civil (like the pun!) debate.....
Skoda - ditto to your comments.

[alfie1999]

Agreed skoda, especially the first line.

[tired-flyboy]

I can't help with the PVR bit, but i can help with info about the NATS training side, (that is the Area side of their house).

And how it differs from the Mob world.

PM if you wish.

Nodster

[Wee Jock McPlop]

Cottam,

I made the leap of faith over to NATS about 4 years ago and have not regretted it one bit. Just how you progress through the system is very much down to the way you go about it - whether you go to NATS at Bournemouth, or another training college. If you get stuck in, play by the rules and don't p..s everyone off, then you'll be fine. You only get back what you're prepared to put in.

As for having options if it all goes 'Pete Tong', by all means have them, but just keep that bit under you hat. You should always have a plan 'B'. The trick is not needing to implement it.;)

It will be hard work, but as an Mil ATCO that won't worry you.:E Is it all worth it? You bet.

As the other guys have said, if you want any advice/info then just PM us. Always happy to help and good luck in whatever you choose to do.

WJMcP


tired-flyboy,

Respect to you if you are ex-mil and got through the area course:ok: Brave man!!

[tired-flyboy]

wee Jock

I was (aerodrome and area) and i have. :cool:

:ok:

Respect back at ya....

[cottam approach]

Your words are appreciated. I will PM as appropriate. :ok:

[skodasfinesthour]

I must stop this....but Wee Jock McPlop....once again I agree entirely with your comments. Best piece of advice you could possibly give about making the transition to civil ATC.

I especially agree with the d"on't p&*s anyone off" bit.....as no one likes a bolshie ex mil person......(not implying that any of us ex mil guys were of course!).


Regards