Attention EK A330 pilots

[divingduck]

Guys,
it happens just about every time that an EK A330 is made number one in a sequence...he dives for the deck and then stops, knocking on some serious speeds and/or vectors on the following pilots.
Today, we had an A330 thru BUBIN given speed of 310 and DCT LOVEL to keep him number one ahead of another companies A330.
The trailer was given min clean and was STILL overhauling the EK bus.(and he DID slow down).
The EK bus was at A100 with 70 miles to touch, he didn't seem too happy about not being given lower and when I couldn't approve lower he wanted to slow down????? Situational awareness....nil
Now I realise that we aren't flying your aircraft, and we are not pilots, but why is there such a disparity in the way different airlines drive their A330s?

Sensible answers only please, I am really interested...if it is going to be a standard thing, we can take measures to prevent too much vectoring for all the following aircraft, by taking the A330 out of the sequence and bringing everyone else in ahead of it.

[jafar]

I suppose you are an ATC man. Well, I am not EK 330 driver and I don't see any particular reason for such a behaviour. I have worked for EK a long time ago and I thought guys were very professionnal. Did you challenge him requesting his actual speed? Do you know if they do the same at LHR or other places?

[White Knight]

DD - quite right, it's not hard to follow ATC requirements in a 330. A good gate is a10000 at about 40 NM, and slowing to 250kts. (EK REQUIREMENT of 250 Kts BELOW 5000 AAL)
Anyway, what's wrong with the "chicken lever"??????:cool:

And just to edit to say we should be flying CDA's - or CONTINUAL DESCENT APPROACHS - saves fuel, makes less noise and is better energy management... Besides, it's a requirement into UK airports so why not do it at homebase?

[harry the cod]

I'll tell you why.

Because it's not emphasized at all during initial and transition training. Got to get those word perfect calls in every time and as long as you do that, who gives a rats a**e about CDA's? This Company assumes, incorrectly, that all the guys and girls with thousands of hours already know this stuff. The evidence on the line says otherwise, especially from our Yankee friends i'm afraid to say!

Harry

[AN FO fossil]

Not really something that a line guy like me can answer. Yes a lot of us fly the A330 very conservatively. EK training on the A330 calls for that approach. Have you considered asking EK management? Maybe your input would assist the trainers?

Personally I don't think the 330 is that hard to handle, provided you are not held high. Back in the A320 days we would, if held high, try to stay at idle by reducing speed until we were cleared for descent then increasing again, but that was a different time and place, and less traffic. I can't really answer your question.

[harry the cod]

AN FO fossil

Unless you've been given specific speed controls, there's no reason why you can't still do that on the A330 and 777. It's called 'energy management'

Harry

[Vorsicht]

If held up on descent, as you indicated the 330 was, slowing down is the most appropriate thing to do. It is called energy management. If they were to maintain high speed while stuck at an intermediate altitude, the only way to meet your ever changing descent profile is by using speedbrake. Whilst prudent use of speedbrake is definitely one of the tools at our disposal, the net effect of being held up and using speedbrake is an increased fuel burn. As you may be aware, ek drivers are under considerable management pressure to minimise fuel burn, not to mention our own preference to have more fuel in tanks. So in a nutshell, slowing down when held up is first choice for any thinking operator of jet aircraft. If by slowing down it causes you difficulty in flow control, then you need to assigne speeds. It works in Heathrow, it should work here.

On the other hand if you expect us to guess what speed you want, you are going to get a variety of results.

V

[ironbutt57]

Why dont they publish profile descents and USE them...would make atc's life a lot easier, and take the guesswork out of what is going to happen to us as flt crew...maybe there are airspace constraints or other factors that prevent this???

[Funk]

the thing is we (atc's) want to stay out of the cockpit but when you've given 310+kts to the front A330 and the following a/c is 8-10'000ft above 15 miles behind doing 250kts (or less) and closing rapidly, it means that we will have to give decent restrictions with speed restrictions when levelled off for the No1 EK A330. More R/T and a less economical descent profile, DD like the rest of of just want a bit of common dog when it comes to assessing your place in the sequence ;)

having said that we do all that and then you get the magical mystery tour of 70+ track miles from DESDI gate for Rwy 12L :confused:

[Aircav]

Speed decrease/increase is an important Energy management tool in all jet aircraft but on the A330 it is of vital importance if things start going awry on the profile. For all you ex Boeing guys, the speed brake on the A330 needs to be used aggresively sometimes, it was fitted for a reason so come on guys don't be shy. To stop any screaming about fuel conservation, if your thrust is at idle it does not matter what you do with the brake to regain profile does it????:D

Having said that has anyone else noticed that they have changed the idle factor in the box to +4 without publishing it. If my memory serves me correctly this will mean that the descent computation in the FMGEC will be really conservative compared to other types/3x table. Just a thought for all of you that follow the donut.:eek:

Keep discovering

[ruserious]

There may be any of several factors at play here:

Emirates training and SOP's encouraging conservative energy levels
Individual ability varies widely across 900 airbus pilots
Higher aircraft may have a stronger tailwind component
Higher aircraft will have a higher TAS for a given IAS
Good energy management as previously stated
Lack of faith in the awareness levels of ATC, as a result second guessing even the good ones

So it could be any or all of those, if we had a cohesive well planned and manned ATC system with constant descents and prescribed speeds, we would not need to spend as much time dealing with the human and environmental variabilities

[divingduck]

May be it was just my poor antipodean English, but the guy that was killing my sequence was the front guy!
He was given direct and high speed....and was then at A100 with 70 to touch. My question was why was he that low in the first place.
He was assigned 300kts or more by Muscat and on first contact I assigned 310 and direct, the last thing I want him to do is slow down!
Granted I held up his descent...but tell me, what level would he have been at BUBIN? 6000 or so?

Anyway guys, just tucking into a nice coldie, thanks for the replies thus far.:D

[mensaboy]

If you give someone a speed of 250kts and he is 10000' feet higher than the preceding aircraft at 300kts, the actual difference in True Airspeed is only about 20kts. In other words, IF the winds are exactly the same, then the difference in groundspeed, or what you see on radar is a lot less than what you think it should be. Factor in a higher windspeed, which is possibly a tailwind, and now the higher aircraft may in fact be overtaking the lower aircraft in spite of the fact that his Indicated airspeed is 50kts lower.

I believe there are 2 general rules for Indicated to True airspeed, one is that for every 1000 foot difference in altitude there is an additional 1.5% added to IAS to get TAS. The other one is that for every 1000 feet altitude difference add roughly 3kts to go from IAS to TAS.

As an example 2 different aircraft, one at 10K' and the other at 20K', showing exactly the same IAS, and in a NO WIND situation, the higher aircraft would be doing approximately 30kts faster groundspeed.

[Hook]

Very interesting post diving duck, and some very pertinent replies from all you folks too. My 2 fils worth:

A100 with 70 to touch

That is very low even on a 330. The guy must have got his calculations wrong.

Higher aircraft will have a higher TAS for a given IAS

Very true. The 330 is an amazing glider hence the very flat and long descent profile, well below other aircraft.
Someone mentioned that trainers encourage newbies to be conservative. This is the case because most new joiners have very few sectors to fly before being released to the line hence it's preferred if they first learn how to avoid being caught hot and high on what is an almost abnormally slippery aircraft rather than conserve fuel, which should (inshallah) come with more experience on type. ( This, however is not to say that A100 with 70 miles to run would be acceptable on a training flight, I'm just saying being a bit more conservative than an experienced line pilot would be) The simulator course does nothing to teach CDAs because the program involves mostly circuit work or aerial work close to the airport. The company policies don't help either - especially the one which requires us to fly a slow FMGS economy speed. It's OK to do that in a non-busy environment like Karachi etc but forget it if you're flying into DXB, LHR and so on - .8M/300 kts is then the best planning speed.

ek drivers are under considerable management pressure to minimise fuel burn

Stuff management pressure. I try to save gas because it's professional and also environmentally friendly:E. And because the more fuel in my tanks the happier I am......
On a final note, the arrivals procedures into DXB are not too helpful either (not trying to criticise - just making a point;)). On different nights we have different procedures - sometimes holding, sometimes long vectors and so on, so it's a bit hard for us to anticipate. I still think that a new holding pattern somewhere close to the runway, with an S turn onto finals like we get at LHR, is the way to go.
G'night all.

[scanscanscan]

Just publish some star arrivals and fly them....if the Gf 320 had flown a star arrival off of Dahran to Runway 12 at star speeds Gf would probably not be in todays mess.....and a lot more people alive.
I asked for such a star to be published many times in my Gf career time 1974 to 2000 and was told it was not necessary....most of us worked out ourown...I often took the ILS.
This was dispite two Air France aircraft crashing previously caught out exactly like the Gf 320 on the black hole approach on a moonless night.
I saw a Cathay 747 miss twice onto RW12 one night before failing safe and taking a 5 knot tailwind down the 30 ILS....he sure saved fuel that night....
Interestingly after the two aAir France crashes onto RW12 Gulf Aviation introduced a rule that you always took the ils option if the wind was within limits at night....somewhere along the line at GF this rule was dropped.
As usual I agree with Iron Butt a pretty wise yank who has been around the block.

[Lock n' Load]

To answer Muttley crew, and assuming you mean you get a direct routing to LOVOL/UKRIM followed by a vector away from that point...

If you're going BUBIN-LOVOL or DESDI-UKRIM, it can often be to deconflict you with the downwind. Sometimes there's also an element of "suck it and see". If you're keeping the speed up when we can make you number one, you'll continue to the FACF. If, on the other hand, you have NOT been given a cancellation of speed restrictions and we intended to put you, say number 4, and in fact you're still grounding 350kts+, we may well vector you off that track rather than pulling your speed way back.

As for being 70nm from touchdown at 10,000 ft, that seems like poor descent planning... There also times when it might be useful though! The airspace doesn't always allow for constant descent profiles thanks to arrivals coming from 4 possible directions and departures going out of 5 gates (MIADA and MAXMO are both arrival and departure gates) with a lot of crossing tracks.

On a more general point, our flow control tools are limited. It's the guy in the co-ordinator's seat at Dubai and the guys at the centre who answer the phone! We're not permitted to issue crossing times at DESDI and BUBIN - just to issue an in-trail spacing requirement to the centre. We can sometimes "reach out and touch someone", offering direct FACF and high speed to the centre for individual aircraft, though we're not technically permitted to co-ordinate for individual aircraft (go figure...).

Perhaps the best thing a pilot can do to help him/herself and others, both ATC and other crews, is let us know if you have to slam on the breaks ahead of time. If direct LOVOL/UKRIM will give you descent problems, TELL US YOU'D RATHER FLY THE STAR.

We always want to get you on the ground, safely and as expeditiously as possible, and certainly there is a range of experience and ability levels in any ATC unit which can effect how efficiently we do that, but please never doubt that as controllers, we want to give you the best service we can offer given the equipment, airspace and support at our disposal. :ok:

[AN FO fossil]

Blood*y hell. You guys are right into this. Very serious.

Ah, Harry, if your there, yes I do understand and do apply enery management principles. No need to take that sarcastic tone.

To the rest of you, enjoy the thread. I'm off to the beach.

[A300Man]

Just saw one almost looping-the-loop a very few minutes ago above my house, on its approach into DXB. Nice go-around. (15:15 lcl)

Is the A330 an agile machine? Recall a captain on an A300-600R a few years back (when cockpit rides WERE permitted) telling me that the A300 was "like a jet fighter to fly" in terms of its agility.

Prefer not to experience that though.................

Back on track now.......................

[the Shue]

I think Diving Duck is not really questionning the A330's low level so far away from touch as to the pilot's questionning of the speed control. If you're number 1 we need you to go fast whether you are high or low. If you're number 1 but your priority is to fly slow and conserve fuel we can make you number 2 however the extra track miles would defeat the purpose.

Dubai has become a very busy airport, (not Heathrow busy acknowledged), but busy enough that we (as controllers) can rarely accomodate everyone's desired profile. We would if we could, we are on your side, really!:ok:

[max AB]

A300 man, I suspect the 300 captain you spoke to a few years back has never flown a fast jet...

DD if a 330, or any type for that matter coming in from Oman FIR to DXB is at 10K' at 70nm then there is not much height above the rocks. And in summer particularly he is getting knocked by turbulence and probabley slowed down without telling you. Don't know why he was that low, maybe checking out camping spots??? But to suggest this is common with Ek 330s is crap I would have to say.

[divingduck]

Not wanting to pour fuel on the flames...BUT this kind of thing happens every day into Dubai from both east and west.
If it was just the once, I would say "oh well, what to do" and get on with life. This is a very regular occurrence, from the Muscat side it isn't a huge problem, we have room to bend people around behind the guy down in the weeds...the problem is from the Desdi side...we have no room to play and I have seen many a time A330s dragging it in wanting below F150 at ITITA when we are on RWY30.
Naturally we are trying to keep you high to keep you moving quicker across the ground (that is all we really care about). When you are at A100, the guys on a "normal" descent profile 10,000 feet or more above you are eating you alive!

Remember you get to see it from your cockpit with your aircraft...we get to see it with all of them.
Granted it was not as bad, but 2 EK A330s came through BUBIN today, both were maintaining F200 well prior to TAPRA. Using the 4:1 ratio that one of you gentlemen mentioned to me, they were both still in excess of 20 miles "low", for what you would expect.

Muttley Crew...
Is the gripe about direct tracking directed to Dubai or UAE? Just wondering. We sometimes give away direct to segregate tracks, and sometimes to reduce R/T as we have to give full route clearances through the airspace...takes a lot of time when you do it a couple of hundred times per day.

Thanks again for the replies

[mensaboy]

After having finally reading that latest fleet letter to us all, it cleared up some issues I have always wondered about wrt to ATC in Dubai. For me, it was a bit eye-opening with regards to limitations that you guys have.
In fact, last night, coming into Dubai, my partner was bitching about being told to speed up, and then once we were passed on to the next controller we were told of our impending hold at Desdi. My colleague then blasted off into a long winded bitch session about the lack of intercommunication between controllers. I just sat there wondering why he was preceding to the hold at 300kts when ATC told us that we were absolved of airspeed restrictions. So, in my best efforts not to tell him how to fly a profile, I gently asked ATC if we could slow down without conflicting with other traffic. Due to this, we never even entered the hold and we entered the pattern with about an 6 minute delay and hardly any consequences wrt to fuel.
All I am saying is that its good that we talk about these things. You have different priorities than we do and knowing for example why you keep us at 8000' on downwind and expect us to be able to take a short turn to final makes my job easier. Energy management in some aircraft can be a bitch if you don't know how to do it properly and keep that in mind please, especially considering the varied levels of experience at Ek.
I will say one thing though, that guy working before the 'Director' did a very good job in my opinion. I have no idea what nationality but i suspect something like a Zimbo or South African, but my congrats to him.
Then again, listening to the putz behind us, and yeah i don't mind saying this, the American pilot who clearly thought the world was his oyster, I can understand why he got the run around from ATC. I mean really, is it so tough to say........... UAE control, Emirates 9978, passing FL 146 for 8000 feet ? What the hell is with this............. AHHH, this is Emirates 9978 checkin in with you, down to 8 thousand. ?????????
I can totally understand why you guys get frustrated some times.

[Ronnie Raygun]

DD
For your info. The managed descent profile on the 330 is very conservative,especially with the new idle factor and 99.9% of EK 330 drivers fly managed descents. Rarely have I seen anyone intentionally fly past the descent arrow before requesting descent.
I always do my own calculations and frequently find that the fms wants to descend 30-40 miles before my open descent calculations (especially with default speed settings). I still fly the managed descent as this is what the company want me to do.
I flew into Dubai last week via bubin and the fms profile showed 10000 ft at approx 65 miles with a slight tailwind. ATC restrictions didnt allow the managed descent but it would have worked out nicely. The guy you are talking about was more than likely just flying a managed descent and prompting you for lower so that he could stay on the profile without leveling off. Of course we all have the option of open descent and use of speed/ airbrakes, but thats not the point.
Like others have mentioned, its often very difficult to predict what is going to happen on atc handover and I have frequently found myself being told to speed up by one agency and slow down by another immediatly on handover.
You might feel bullied by pilots constantly asking for further descent or speeds but it is necessary as second guessing dosnt work.
Ronnie

[GMDS]

Well, let's just wait for the second runway to reopen. ATC then will be able to use separate corridors to each runway.
The fast one for jets, the other slow one for Antonov 12s, ATRs and EK 330ies......

[Aircav]

Where does it say you have to fly managed descents especially if the profile is crap??????

The change in Idle perf. in the FMGEC is taking the easy way out to stop unstable approaches. The correct way is to teach proper energy management principles, something I have never seen done in all my years in EK.:{ Remember the computing principle GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. The box is not always right!!!!

Enough Said

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

GMDS, I really hope that was tongue in cheek, cos if not you will be severely dissapointed to learn the second runway may reduce the number of go rounds on night shifts in Dubai, thus reducing the number of panic calls to hold all traffic from both sides that we recieve in the UAE ACC, but it won't make much other difference.

As far as the A330's are concerned, MAXab sorry it is not crap to say that it is common for A330's to want lower than A100 at 70 NM's, in fact it seems to be the norm especially if you ask for high speed. What I have noticed is that when you tell them to go 310IAS or greater to stay number one, they dive for the deck and therefore completely defeat the purpose of high speed. The only time I ever try and keep an A330 in front of a tight congo line is if I have time to tee up that they are to fly 310IAS or greater and that I want them to stay high so as to cross the gate meeting the STAR requirement and no lower ie. A130 at ORLIK, GONLO etc. This means since all other aircraft types have to meet that requirement as well they are all on a similair page as far as descent profile is concerned. Now not being a pilot I don't know what the onward ramifications of this are if they are straight in RWY12 and they are A130 at 40 odd miles but in these cases the guys agreed, did it, the sequence worked, and there wasn't any go rounds. Other option DD is to do as you said and make it a policy that 777's always go ahead of 330's when it is at all close. Its not being mean but instead just looking at the greater good, as if the 777 stays high in the good winds and fast as they do, then the rest of the sequence suffers less.

To answer the question about direct tracking that is barely any change. If I have no inbounds and I can say cleared direct TONVO/TARDI/BALUS I will whether that is a big saving or not. Firstly if we don't we often get in this part of the world another transmission asking us "can we go direct ..." even in cases where to us it looks like a straight line either way (Egyptair, Syrian and Air Arabia are the worst for this), secondly by saying direct ... it means confirming the correct readback of one less point, and finally it may only save a bee's dick of track miles but enough bees dicks and you save a substantial amount of fuel. To be perfectly honest when you call us on East as a departure you are the easy flights, that is we know we can only give you FL250 as that is the standard level we assign before giving you to Muscat, and if I have you far enough Nth of BUBIN inbound and no FUJ/RAK arrivals, I can fire off a direct instruction with barely looking at the radar. This means I can keep working on how I can get those 4 DARAX departures vertically separated in the next 3 minutes before I have to transfer them to Tehhhhhhh:eek::eek::eek:ran. So basically you have to push some buttons and it feels like a waste of time. Ok.

[Ronnie Raygun]

AIRCAV
It says so in the SOP. "The normal method of initiating the descent is to select DES mode at the FMGS calculated TOD".
As far as rubbish in rubbish out is concerned, what rubbish can you insert?
The tracks and distances are checked and the winds uplinked and checked.
The rest is down to default speed and cost index.
As DD says "this was not an isolated incident" which would suggest that people are flying the managed profile as per SOP. Its not my train set, EK tell me how they want me to fly their aircraft an thats what I endevour to do, circumstances permitting..
Ronnie

[Aircav]

Uplock,

I beg to disagree, you still have the same level of automation whether in OPEN Descent or Managed. Managed is a different mode of descent not a different level of automation.

Ronnie Raygun,

I know what the SOP's say, but we are also payed to be pilots, so if the box is being unrealistic we are allowed to intervene, and I think A100 at 70 miles is a tad unrealistic. Read my post carefully, I meant the +4 idle factor is part of the rubbish, coupled with ECON descent speed which the aircraft will try to fly at the lower limit if you let it, means that the managed profile is rubbish. I also said instead of taking the easy way out people should be trained to manage the aircraft energy if they don't already know how to. Any clearer???

Are you saying you will follow the donut irrespective of anything else???


As for the train set analogy, that is a cop out. We are all grown ups I hope, so play with the train set like a grown up. Know the limitations, fly conservatively, fly safe but FLY.:)

Enjoy the train set

[Ronnie Raygun]

AIRCAV

Under normal circumstances we are paid to fly the companies aircraft the way the company want us to fly their aircraft as laid down in the SOP.
There was no problem with the clarity of your post, I just disagreed with some of what you were saying. No need for the sarcasm.
No I dont just follow the doughnut, If what it is giving me is safe and reliable, I take it into consideration. If not, I disregard it.
As i said before the vast majority of guys descend on the arrow as per the SOP. I dont necesserily agree with all that is written in the SOP but I try to adhere to it. Again, its not my train set.
Ronnie

[Gulfstreamaviator]

In a CL601 last light ( OK 1am ) this morning, into RAK, passed ORAX at 270, we were slowed to 250, there was holding at DARAX.
This I assume was the reason for our "slower" arrival towards the RAV.
The radar headings to keep both wings in the UAE FIR.?
We crossed the coast at UAQ, at 6k, on a great radar heading, towards the IAF for RAK, but just told radar service terminated. I have no problem with this as I knew we were pointed perfectly, however my "boss", was very upsety at having been dumped like that.

Please Q1) was last night just so busy. Q2) keep these arrivals up, and point me at IAF. It works for me.

Best regards from RAK, a very efficient under-utised airport. Shame there is almost no parking bays.

[emratty]

It's a sign of the times, Emirates encourages the maximum level of automation at all times which is all very well in the perfect world however pilots ability to think outside the box is becoming limited. Not our fault just the culture that exists within the airline. For the ATC guys the airbus managed descent speed can be as low as 270kt(and often the aircraft flies slower) in the past we would change that speed to a minimum of 300kts but we had a notice saying don't do that you must use managed speeds at all times( and a high percentage of people take this as gospel).
ATC have a part to play in the erratic descents as well as poor descent managment from the pilots.

[Ketek400]

Just to mention, the Airbus 330 does not descend at the same rate as the 777 or 737 or anything else in this case. The wing is very efficient and it takes more than 3-1 to get down. More like 4-1. Sometimes it may seem that the Bus is low, but in actual fact you are not. She is just trying to get rid of the speed.

Sure at EK things are way more conservative than other places, but I think you have to have flown both to understand the difference between Boeing and Bus.

[divingduck]

Not exactly sure what went on...even though I was there last night:eek:

Coming through ORSAR, Tehran give restrictions to be at either F210, F230, F250 or F270.
This is to de-conflict you with the guys coming from the Bahrain FIR that are on the drop to F280.
The speed was to stop you running over the guys that were being streamed into Dubai and Sharjah via DESDI.
Dubai Approach, generally like the RAK arrivals north of the gate (segregation with the main traffic flow).
We have to stop you going more than about 10-12 miles north of track, as any further than that will take you back into Tehran's patch..something frowned upon.

Once we hand you off to Dubai approach, what happens next is up to them, but I'll take a stab at it.
They would have held you up at A060 because they had departures to DARAX thru MAXMO, they have to give them some climb or they won't make their requirements at DARAX.
Also they have to give a standard level at or on descent to RAK (I assume it's A060) for the hand-off.
Being nice guys, they point you pretty much at where you wish to go, and then as RAK has no radar....then radar services MUST be terminated as you are heading into terrain and you have to fly all that secret squirrel pilot stuff to avoid the hard stuff.

So to sum up, you weren't just "dumped" as I think you realise..tell your bossman to have a look at the aids utilised by each of the ATS units...RAK operate under procedural control only...with high terrain its pretty much a "one in one out" kind of place.

In answer to Q1...yes, it was damned busy all night.

Q2 I'll leave to a qualified Dubai guy/gal:ok:

[Schnowzer]

Standard Dubai Arrival through Desdi from Iran:

UAE Centre 'EK ***, turn right heading 270, descend to FL160 and slow to minimum clean for sequencing.'

Hand off to Dubai.....

Dubai ' EK ***, cleared direct Umali, descend 2000', accelerate to light speed.'

There is no excuse for rubbish energy control in the descent just as there is no excuse for rubbish sequencing and coordination. Until everyone gets their own houses in order the situation will not improve.

[Lock n' Load]

Gulfstream Aviator (surely that should be stumpy Quebecois jet aviator?), check your PMs.

[divingduck]

It's been done to death many times....but I think it needs explaining yet again.

UAE centre have absolutely no say in the spacing that has to be given through DESDI and BUBIN, that is Dubai's call. If they say 25 miles and 230 knots by the gate, we are compelled to do it.
With some measure of disgust I might add, especially when they now have their two runways in use, but require exactly the same spacing and the restrictions on UAE control have actually been EXTENDED for an hour.
It used to be from 9.30pm local til 2.30am that they required (not requested) 20nm between arrivals through all gates. Now with their 2nd runway in use, the restrictions go from 9pm til 3am...if you can work that out, please give me a call, because i just can't get my head around it.:ugh:

So, to sum up, Dubai call the ball, it's up to the individual controller to decide whether to vector or hold you. Speaking as a dumb farm boy, if i have to give more than HDG 180 ex ORSAR, I'll stick you in the hold.
When you get onto dubai's frequency, naturally there is plenty of space between you and the guy in front, so invariably they cancel speed and track direct, thereby wasting all the time and effort on the other side of the gate.

As for whether or not it will improve...where there is life, there's hope.:ok:

[White Knight]

DD - "second runway in use":confused::confused: Just flew in 2 hrs ago and STILL single runway ops........

[Eldin]

To give you controllers a better idea of the way we drivers (should) think, consider this:

For planning purposes; below FL200
a) for the A330: 3x FL plus 1 mile for every 10 knots above 170
b) for 777: 3x FL plus 1 mile for every 10 knots above 190

Using GS instead of TAS gives you some credit for wind; to make it more accurate try adding 1-2 miles for 10 knots tailwind @ FL200

Not perfect, but it should give you a ballpark figure.

Without any doubt, the A330 is harder to decelerate - with flaps in or out -and Emirates management have drilled a scare of unstabilised approaches into crews. At the same time, 777 speedbrakes are more efficient than those on the A330, which makes A330 crews even more cautious.

In any case, putting an A330 on the GS with 170 knots (or 180 with more flaps/drag) and a 777 with 180 should keep drivers out of trouble.

And I couldn't care less about the "my airplane is better than yours" idiocy or whether this is to "superior airfoil design" on the A330, or "superior handling qualities" on the 777. We are unlikely to change the way our particular airplanes behave and we might as well get used to it.

Another part of the problem could be varying descent speeds.
It used to be 300 (previously 310) knots on the A330 and 310 knots on the 777. As management tries to reduce fuel consumption, we descent with cost indices that can drop descent speeds down to 270 knots, or below. (If this continues, some guys may well have to accelerate to 250 KIAS when descending below 10,000. ;) ) The next guy says "hell, stuff this" and descends at 310 as before.

At one stage, I tried to get management interested in using a standard descend speed of let's say 290 knots (for the sake of fuel economy) for all fleets.
That would have made us more predictable for ATC who would no longer have to increase the speed of slow traffic (means more fuel burn) or reduce the speed of the faster traffic (means more fuel burn, since they extended the cruise portion beyond the point where they could have descended at a lower speed), but management never got the picture and the proposal must have gone straight to file 13, because I never even got an acknowledgement.

Interesting to note that you controllers put altitude into the equation and consider the fact that 300 KIAS @ FL200 moves us a lot faster across your screen than 300 KIAS at FL100. It must be literally part of the way each of us sees the picture and applies mental arithmetic. You see a blip moving across the screen at the same 300 knots, but different altitudes and rates; while we pilots work on FL X 3 plus whatever to figure out required track miles.


Great talking to you, gents.

[ironbutt57]

Like I said profile descents with specific altitude and airspeed gates.."insert and fly" will it work in the UAE??? or is the airspace too "complex"??

[Schnowzer]

Diving Duck,

Let me start by saying this is not personal, it is directed to the GCAA.

It's been done to death many times....but I think it needs explaining yet again.No it doesn't! It needs fixing!

For goodness sake, Dubai is in the UAE. Its like saying that in the UK, they can't coordinate traffic in Hampshire!

I had heard that the Danish one had been moved sideways so now must be a good time to get it right. Dubai is the biggest airport in the Middle East and UAE Centre is the National Air Traffic Control Centre for......Dubai. Cut the political crap and provide a Service. Dubai and the UAE need to get together to provide the Service their customers, the aircraft require.

As the penguins say in Madagascar 'I don't want reports, I want results!':zzz:

[BlueSkye]

Schnowzer, my mate, my good ole buddy. Most of the guyirls working for ACC in AD and APP in Dub come from countries with developed and advanced ATM systems where the paying customer is always right, within limts though. Believe you me, if you put the ATCs in a room for one day with enough coloured crayons and wax paper and beer we will walk out with a system that works like a Swiss chronograph.

Why? Because we watch it happen day in and night out. We are the experts when it comes to traffic flow management, the actual flow not the office management perceived flow. So if it was up to us you would nearly never hold, have continious(sp) descents and have minimal time at the holding point. A little Valhalla in the desert.

BUT, having worked out the perfect system we announce it to all and sundry and get tangled up in:

-Politics 1. The petty, semantic politics of management. If it is a good idea, who cares who thought about it etc.

-Ego 1. The UAE military has more airspace than the civilians. They use this airspace between 8 and 5, Sunday to Thursday. "Ok knock out, so we can have it for the rest of the time?" Sounds of gunshots from the backroom.

-Procedures. DXB is about to give birth to "healthy" new runway. Problem solved? I think not. One would think that two runways can handle twice the traffic. The DXB procedures will not change one iota with the second runway. In fact it became more restrictive. I kid you not. You see the runways will not be classed as independent. So you have two runways operating as one.

-EK Airlines. As I have mentioned before on this forum, EK is partly responsible for there own misery. You all pitch at the same time, you will all get a couple of looks at DESDI/BUBIN. Simple pre-school arithmetic. So much for managed fuel burn.

-Ego 2. You will push back back on time to show the world you are always on time. To hell with the 30 minutes at the holding point, burning fuel. At least you're on time.

-Politics 2. This from the country's esteemed leaders. Iran took our island so we will not play with them anymore. I did that when I was 4 and Henry took my favourite Star Wars figure (Chewbacca). I have outgrown that stage, they have not. GCAA is not allowed to converse with Tehran to improve procedures. Editors decision is final.

-Pre-planning. Or lack there of. Self explanitory.

This list is not exhaustive. It is just a couple of things. But these are things that hold us back, who in turn hold you back. I will continue to do the best I can with the limited resources provided while halve my tongue is tied behind my back. But then I need a little help from my friends, you guys poling that thing.