Anyone for a Lightning?

[Not_a_boffin]

Hardly used, sold as seen.....

http://www.edisposals.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/Disposals-Public-Site/en_US/-/GBP/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=MieqQ4wkQg8000ArvQ_8K1sp0000fQjaBC1f?ProductUUID= CvHAqBIP6gwAAAETPQkQv0rj&CatalogCategoryID=VaLAqBELPagAAAED8GeasfoP&JumpTo=OfferList

[airborne_artist]

Or for an estimated £17,500 you could have this (http://www.witham-sv.com/tender/lots_detail.php?ID=326)

http://www.witham-sv.com/Lot-picture/lot326.jpg

[c-bert]

Does anyone know the reason why the CAA won't approve a Lightning for flight?

[AR1]

Does anyone know the reason why the CAA won't approve a Lightning for flight?

Probably because even when they were being looked after, 1 in 3 fell out of the sky!
I saw the stats somewhere, and they make truly 'Frightening' reading, maybe thats how it aquired the nickname?

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Complexity and kinetic energy are amongst the reasons they've dragged out in the past. However, if the Seffrikans can do it, I'm sure we could.

[Not_a_boffin]

And if HHA get their Bucc (XX885) airworthy under complex cat registration then there's a precedent. Anybody any idea what teh current status of that Bucc is?

[Razor61]

or £12,500 for a Jaguar on Ebay.... plenty more according to the seller :(

[Jaguar Pilot]

Does anyone know the reason why the CAA won't approve a Lightning for flight?

It's because it is a requirement by the CAA that such ventures require the support of the manufacturer, and BAe are, perhaps understandably, unwilling to offer support. No such inhibition in Sith Ifrikaa.

Having said that, the team at Bruntingthorpe have done a magnificent job of keeping their two in airworthy condition. I was speaking to a friend of mine (Air Commodore ret'd) the other year and he said that during a high speed taxi run, in reheat no less, he was very tempted......

Probably because even when they were being looked after, 1 in 3 fell out of the sky!

Garbage, if you'll forgive me.

JP (and LP)

[AR1]

You're forgiven.

I'm still fairly certain the loss rate was >30% over its life.

[om15]

Details are a bit hazy, but I recall a modification carried out on the Lightnings in the early 70s to the hydraulics, the AGS1186 bonded seals fitted to the hydraulic components ajacent to the jet pipes were leaking due to the heat, this caused a fine spray of hydraulic oil on to the jet pipe and caused a fire in the aft fuselage, and certainly a few were lost by this problem.( the tailplane gearbox failing if I remember)
The fix was to wire lock tape around the unions so when they leaked it merely dripped instead of spraying, thus reducing the risk of fire.
Thats possibly why they can't fly today. Sadly.
Best regards
om15

[gareth herts]

I've tried to persuade the missus that it would look great parked on the drive but so far no go!

[Jaguar Pilot]

AR1

and they make truly 'Frightening' reading, maybe thats how it aquired the nickname?

Methinks 'twas because the last aeroplane that most Lightning pilots flew in training en-route to the beast was the Hunter. I well remember being on 226 OCU in '68 at the tender age of 21 and the aeroplane did at the time seem "frightening". It must be one of the few aeroplanes in history where nobody complained about the lack of thrust! Mind you, lack of fuel was a different kettle of fish - short of fuel at the take-off point!

Gareth Herts

I've tried to persuade the missus that it would look great parked on the drive but so far no go!

Jeremy Clarkson managed it for a while....

Wanna see a Lightning low? Go to www.lightningpilots.com (http://www.lightningpilots.com) and check photos under 5 Sqn. Photographed from the tower - from above!

JP

[Sl4yer]

A few were lost due to undercarriage extension failure in the early days. Were these problems ever solved (by modification)? Was it ever a problem in service?

[hobie]

I got this for stg 500.00 plus a heck of a lot of 'Pints', to lubricate the negotiations, as I recall .... :)

http://i7.tinypic.com/281c8jk.jpg

Was there a guy near Liskeard who put a Lightning (or something very similar) up on a stand, outside the entrance to his home (it was a big home as I recall) …. :confused:

[om15]

I believe that the prototype aircraft had the u/c selector positioned on the left hand side just forward of the throttles, this could possibly result in an inadvertant "down" selection if the throttle was pushed fully forward, I remember being told that one aircraft had a down selection at mach 2 resulting in an airframe loss, the u/c selector was moved to prevent a reoccurence.
Early prototypes had canopy losses in flight, this was cured by modifying the mechanism cams.
One Mk 53 belly landed at Tabuk and the gun pack and ventral tank absorbed the impact, the aircraft did not sustain any serious damage and was repairable.
The Lightning was designed and built in very austere conditions with very little political commitment, it really was a classic aircraft.
Best regards,
om15

[diginagain]

Was there a guy near Liskeard who put a Lightning (or something very similar) up on a stand, outside the entrance to his home (it was a big home as I recall)
Still there, last time I drove past, outside Castle Motors alongside the A38.

[Double Zero]

How about the famous story of the poor chap running up a Lightning, sitting on a box with no canopy, who ended up with the flight of a lifetime ?:D

Though he managed to get it down - a great achievement I'd think - the story did not have a happy ending.

On the other hand, just to please some people, I'll mention it's refreshing to see a Warton product openly labelled 'ineffective'...

[BEagle]

That was Wg Cdr 'Taffy' Holden - an EngO (who'd flown Chipmunks years ealier). He couldn't get the a/c out of reheat (the test was for a fault which only occurred during rapid acceleration) and took to the skies at Lyneham as a result.

He managed to get it back on the ground OK, but suffered psychological trauma ever after.

[hobie]

Still there, last time I drove past, outside Castle Motors alongside the A38.

That's the one ..... wonder if he was ex RAF .... :confused:

[Double Zero]

Thanks Beagle,

sadly that was the way I heard it...I wonder if he'd have got better treatment nowadays - in this case I think he probably would have.

It must have taken a hell of a lot of skill & guts to land it in one piece, the version I heard stated he had several goes - and of course no barrier etc was possible.

There are the other stories which circulate, such as the American loadmaster who took a C-130 headed for East Germany ( & failed to reach it courtesy of a Lightning ) & the groundcrew ( Belgian ? ) chap who pinched an F-16 for a spectacular suicide... Even had a threat to steal a Harrier or Hawk at our place once, which was rather robustly dealt with by a certain Mr. J.F; he was intelligent enough to warn us all, which I doubt others would have done.

[diginagain]

Hobie, XS936 is owned by Roy Flood, who set up Castle Motors, then Castle Air. He appears to have another, XR751 at home.

Here's a discussion on the origin of Castle Air.
Background (http://forum.interceptors-lair.com/index.php?topic=19.0)

Rgds

[JP1]

An ex work colleague I knew flew the Lightning. Amongst departing company with one over the West Country, he flew one at the Paris Airshow as the display pilot for that year. 1000 gallons of go go juice in 10 minutes!! If I remember correctly.

You would need deep pockets for fuel alone.

[320psi]

Quote:

Having said that, the team at Bruntingthorpe have done a magnificent job of keeping their two in airworthy condition. I was speaking to a friend of mine (Air Commodore ret'd) the other year and he said that during a high speed taxi run, in reheat no less, he was very tempted......

Thanks for the vote of confidence, we do try to keep them 'going' and thats all, they are far from airworthy, they both flew in (728 June 24th 1988 and 904 Jan 23rd 1993) and we have kept them as servicable as possible ever since, but as we 'only' ground run them and fast taxy them none on the systems are anything like flight worthy.

I assume you mean JS taxying JS, he does get a kick out of it still, but he wouldnt ;)

Ive been close to these two beasts for 20 years and know them inside out and I can see why the CAA are nervous, everything aircraft is so complex and on the limit.

Getting all the OEM's to support a Lghtning is just not going to happen.

And there remains the main question, which airframe currently in the UK would be a possible candidate ?
A T5 would be the best candidate, but which one ?

Best to get a ticket to S Africa I think, or come to Brunty on July 22nd and see our two in action and put some cash in our QRA hanger rebuild fund :) which will see them both preserved for the future.

As for fuel consuption the Avon 302 get though the best part of 3.5 gallons per second in reheat :eek:


Cheers
Andy B (LPG)

[hobie]

Thanks for that digin .... :ok:

[Krystal n chips]

OM15
You are correct with regard to the leaking hyd seals( lower jet pipe area ) and the mod. programme to rectify the problem. I spent many "happy hours" :confused: on 431 MU engaged in replacing those seals at Gutersloh ( happy days ! ) as part of a mod programme which also involved replacing the outboard drain collector box and also the fuel system seals. The tolerances for the latter around an expansion joint were so tight, they were X-rayed after fitment to ensure the gap was correct. There was, as I recall, also replacement of some associated bracketry due to vibration cracking.


To give you an idea as to the depth of the programme, a team of 5 would work for 14 days solid ( other than for rest.....and the odd beer or two ) in order to complete the programme.

[om15]

Krystal,
I was on 103MU at that time, same job, plus centre wing box fuel leak rectification, at least we had Keo to cool us down.
There was an article published some time after the incident with Wing Co Holden, Air Clues I think, the subsequent stress problems were caused by keeping a stiff upper lip at the time, the RAF MO reckoned that if he had let off steam at the time with a bottle of whisky he would have been ok, I'm not sure if that would be current medical advice.
It was certainly standard practice at the time that I worked on Lightnings to chain the nose leg to a ring set in the concrete on the run bay when carrying out power or reheat runs, in addition to the normal main wheel chocks.
I think that the engineering manhour/flying hour rate was something around 60 to 1 on the RAF Lightnings, so apart from the fuel bill the maintenance would cost a bomb to operate one today
Best regards,
om15

[ShyTorque]

He managed to get it back on the ground OK, but suffered psychological trauma ever after.

Felt the same way about my first go in a helicopter - trouble is, I'm still at it, thirty years later :\

[Jaguar Pilot]

320psi

Sorry, I had been led to believe that they were almost ready for flight.

It was not JS by the way, but AW.

[NutLoose]

If you want to buy a Jag, Harrier, wetdream, gnat, JP etc go here, they have lots available including engines.......... indeed you can pick up a helicopter cheap too


http://www.everettaero.com/

[320psi]

Jaguar Pilot.

No worries, like I said they are both far from flight worthy, we just keep them going as safely as we can.

AW did many of our early taxy runs, but we havent seen him for a while
A real gentlman :)

[AR1]

I well remember being on 226 OCU in '68 at the tender age of 21 and the aeroplane did at the time seem "frightening".

JP..If i'd have had the keys to one of those at 21 I would have soiled myself - I had enough problems handling a Fiat 127.

[Jaguar Pilot]

AR1

JP..If i'd have had the keys to one of those at 21 I would have soiled myself - I had enough problems handling a Fiat 127.

It was the first reheat take-off which set the scene.

We only soiled ourselves looking at miniskirts - and kids these days think it's all so new......ahh, flower power, free love etc.....

To be fair, the Lightning handled well thanks mainly to a relatively lightly loaded wing and enough static and dynamic directional stability. Mind you, inertial roll/yaw coupling could be a problem at higher incidence.

Never had a Fiat. Did, however, have one of the first 3 litre Capris. No handling whatsoever - light back end with a live rear axle system designed by the Romans.

The 60s - Lightning by day (or night) + miniskirted nurses just down the road + cheap beer. The trick was to get them in the correct order!

JP

[sitigeltfel]

329 produced, 72 lost.

22% in my estimation.

[hobie]

I think you should have saved your money and bought some better chairs..

:)

Chairs? ....... better chairs? ....... :confused:

From my experience if they are not moulded and bolted to the ground the 'Luv's' would either 'eat' them or 'pinch' them' ..... :p

As for the Avon ...... I'm gone from it now but in my time I would die before I would let anyone harm/remove it !!!! ..... :)




http://i7.tinypic.com/281c8jk.jpg

ps. and it's still on site after something like twenty years ..... :)

[stilton]

I was told by my parents, they saw the whole show involving the Lightning's 'inadvertent flight' at Lyneham from their married quarters house.

Anyone remember what year that was ?

[taxydual]

The Holden experience has been told many times.

Lightning XM135, inadvertant flight by W/Cdr Holden - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=20807&highlight=holden)

Still 'frightening' though.

[Tim McLelland]

Hope you guys will bear in mind that I still have a few weeks to go on my Lightning book, so there's still space for any anecdotes about your experiences with the magnificent beast... :)

[Roger Greendeck]

Not that I have looked into it for myself but I believe that it is possible (mony notwithstanding) to fly a lightening or any other warbird in Australia. Not that, that helps you much if you are living in the UK but if you were thinking of moving down under...

[MAINJAFAD]

341 Lightning’s were built (4 of which static test airframes which never flew). Hence 337 Lightning airframes flew including P.1A/B prototypes and P.1B/F Mk 1 pre-production airframes.

76 RAF Lightning’s crashed or SOC after flying/taxing accidents, ground fires and one from mercury contamination. Another 18 lost by other airforces (Kuwait and Saudi), plus another 4 lost from the pre-production batch.

Gives a total figure of 98

(98/337)x100= 29.08%

[Flying Lawyer]

I believe that it is possible (mony notwithstanding) to fly a lightening or any other warbird in Australia.

It's possible in South Africa, not that I have. (Money withstanding)

Cape Town, three months ago.
(Not my pics. Mine weren't as good as these.)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Flying%20Lawyer/AAD%20Ysterplaat/YsterplaatLightning.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Flying%20Lawyer/AAD%20Ysterplaat/YsterplaatLightning2.jpg



One of the Lightnings broke the sound barrier at >15,000 feet.
An air show spokesman said they received numerous complaints.
"We just wanted to demonstrate what it sounds like to break the sound barrier. It has two distinct noises, one after the other."

That's the spirit. :ok: :)

[bjcc]

FL
Are there any more of that set on the net anywhere? The top one is one of the best Lightning photos I've ever seen.
To my shame, I lived at Gutersloh in the 70's, when 19 & 92 where there with Lightnings, and wasn't able to take any photos. Although it was the RAFP Counter Inteligence SNCO's fault, he wouldn't lend me his camera, and threatened to stop my pocket money if I did!

[Lyneham Lad]

Gutersloh in the 70's, when 19 & 92 where there with Lightnings

Whilst a big fan of the Frightening when it comes to air displays, the above quote brought back less pleasant memories. As many will recall, the late sixties/early seventies saw quite a few losses due to engine bay fires. These tended to be caused either by pinhole corrosion in the hydraulic pipes or leaks from the fuel system couplings.

With 19 and 92's aircraft, there built up a large backlog of engineering modifications, particularly to the FRS couplings in the fuel system piping. Gütersloh's second-line servicing organisation couldn't cope so AEF, 431 MU (Brüggen) was given the task of incorporating all of the backlog of mods during a Base 2 servicing. Trouble was the mod packages amounted to a month's man-hours for the MU team, but we were only given a two-week window to fulfil the work. So the powers-that-be decreed we would arrive at Gütersloh on a Sunday and work 14hrs per day for fourteen consecutive days. We usually managed to meet the target, but then had to wait with bated breath whilst NDT x'rayed every coupling to make sure alignment was within 0.005" in any direction. Any misalignment meant no time-off or return home until corrective actions had been made. Then we would have the magnificent reward of a weekend-off before returning for another stint. Happy days (not).

[Flying Lawyer]

bjcc

Not as far as I'm aware. I was sent those two by a friend in SA.
A quick Google didn't produce either that pic or anything of equal quality.


FL

[harrogate]

Here's the sonic boom video from SA.

Not the best quality, but still nice.

YouTube - Lightning ends with sonic boom (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=weFxi7CcGR4)