Language in the sky

[HURZ]

Dear all,

why is there no airline at all on the SAM continent having the rule to speak english over south america. Especially the big ones e.g. LAN, TAM etc flying intercont.

Situational awarenes is almost not possible with no common ATC language and proper ATC standards. So please guys think about the language you use. ENGLISH is the international aviation language.

Using a common language makes work easier and flying safer.

Obrigado, Gracias

HURZ

[alemaobaiano]

Hurz

Use of the national language in aviation isn't confined to South America, it's quite common over Europe and Asia too. AFAIK English is used by Portuguese speaking crews over Spanish speaking territory, and vice-versa.

The overall (don't bite, I know there are many pilots and controllers who speak fluent English) standard of English in the worldwide aviation community is fairly low, often just enough to satisfy the minimum requirements, and so the use of a national language improves situational awareness for many crews, who are in the majority in national airspace.

I agree that this reduces the awareness for foreign crews, and I agree that English, as the international language of aviation, should be used at all times. However, until the overall standards are improved situational awareness for the majority is aided by the use of the national language.

alemaobaiano

[varigflier]

Down here, most of the four stripes are lazy or dumb to do it. And they think they rule the sky...................:yuk:

[Bokomoko]

It's a very interesting point of view but in China and Russia several pilots speak local language only. Additionally altitudes and FLs are in meters and wind speed in m/s. Keep your conversion tables always ready :}.

[BelArgUSA]

Ex PanAm pilot here, who lost his job with the airline's bankruptcy. Flying with Aerolineas Argentinas since 1994 as 747 captain and instructor, love it here, soon will retire, at the beach in Brasil.
xxx
When flying through S AM, if I hear any European, North American or Asian air carrier on the frequency, I will speak in English with ATC for my position reports and estimates, or flight conditions. And occasionally I use Spanish or Portuguese to ask for a favor (direct to, ask if any turbulence, negotiate for a level change, or to get latest score of a soccer game).
xxx
It probably displeases LH, DL or UA that I ask the latest about Grêmio against Boca Juniors, in "Portuñol". When I was based in West Berlin with PanAm, I did same for our German passengers flying to EDDF, about Bayern München games which I adressed on PA in my basic German. Situation awareness deals only with positions, estimates, and turbulence.
xxx
I speak fully fluent Spanish and French, very good Dutch, basic Portuguese, and some German, and can understand Italian. I can even read/understand some Afrikaans and read the Russian and Greek alphabet... I slept through my classes of Latin and Greek, so don't ask me too much.
xxx
If YOU don't - bug off, or go to school.
xxx
PanAm provided us with free German language tutoring in Berlin, and in Argentina, I received 4 weeks of total immersion in Spanish to take their licencing tests. For a position relay, I will do it with pleasure for you, wielen danken, merci beaucoup, muito obrigado.
xxx
In Russia, there are airways and VHF frequencies restricted to Russian language communications, between Moscow and Khabarovsk, and they use QFE for approach settings and metric for levels. And in China, they use Mandarin. Try that one, to operate to Shanghai or Beijing.
xxx
In the 1970s, I was once instructed to "hold on the outer marker at 3,000 ft" for landing in Paris, when I heard an Air Inter Caravelle "en circuit à 3,000 pieds, balise extérieure" - I did not raise hell for that (yet possibly avoided a near miss) because these "bastards" spoke French.
xxx
You are so called "international pilots" - Ok then, show your professionalism, and buy a Berlitz language booklet for tourists, even if you only learn to order a cold beer in the hotel bar after your flight.
xxx
ICAO recommends English for air to air communications, YES, I say again, "recommends" (in a dictionnary, not a synonym to the word "require"), and approves use of the local languages as well. And if you complain about ATC English with Maiquetia or Curitiba, I consider their English excellent.
Better than ATC Karachi, Mumbai or Kabul on HF anyway...
xxx
I hope my English passes your standards for a citizen of the "third world"...
And in Yorkshire, some people cannot understand me...
Too bad that we cannot even use Español o Portugues in our own S AM forum...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[rduarte]

Good posting, BelArgUSA, i agree totally with you.:ok:
OACI recommands english, it s means, is not mandotary!
But the problem is these native english speakers are unable to speak another language.:mad:

[Panama Jack]

BelArgUSA, you are a class act.

Too bad that Pan Am is gone and worldly, gentleman pilots like you are increasingly rare also.

Thanks for putting your "2 cents" into this forum.

[Coldwing]

So, BelArgUsa, what we should do?

I wouldn't learn English because I could fly speaking only my language?

So you have to expect that you will listen on frequency "Abile per avvicinamento a vista FLY903? Sì, buona giornata FLY903!"

Local languages only with local pilots.

I hope you like italian!!!

:=

[GlueBall]

I find the Castillian dialect of Spanish, the portuguese and russian lanuages to be soft and soothing to the ears; and I find the sounds of Mandarin and Cantonese to be funny and entertaining; the English accent of Thai and Vietnamese female controllers is music to my ears. :p

[Panama Jack]

"Expect me give you deeelaaaay long taaaiiiim."

[BelArgUSA]

Gentlemen -
xxx
I have advices for both sides of the fence for languages...
xxx
For the natives of the English language, this for both ATC and flight crews, please stick to standard communications phraseology, when you speak. No room for local "slang" vocabulary admissible in aviation communications. My colleagues all speak perfect English, yet some are very shy to operate flights in Anglo-Saxon countries, because ATC there, often forgets that they are speaking to pilots who are not born to the English language. Clearance delivery should slow their "machine gun" babble when they give instructions to a "foreign" aircraft. Please use a clear pronunciation with JAL or Korean, with Aeroflot or Aerolineas Argentinas, with Air Afrique or Air Madagascar.
xxx
"Argentinaonethreetwozeroclearedasfiledmaintainfivethousandex pectleveltwothreezerotenminutesafterdeparuredeparturefrequen cyonetwofourpointsixsquawkfoursixthreeone" - Despite having lived some 25 years in Los Angeles, I feel like answering "Miami clearance, say again" a few times, faking a Spanish accent...
xxx
Same for you pilots, when you deal with a "foreign" ATC, saying "ten four" or "tally ho" will not be understood by Erçan Control in North Cyprus. Proper phraseology is often disregarded by native English speakers.
xxx
My advice for English speaking pilots - South America - learn basic Spanish and/or Portuguese (both languages often are quite similar) and numbers, to understand other planes reporting position and levels - Africa - French can be a bit of help in many areas (as well as Portuguese for Luanda and Maputo).
xxx
Coldwing - we love Italians in Buenos Aires, people say that Argentines speak Spanish with... an Italian accent (due to the large number of Italian immigrants). My wife's grand parents were from Torino, their last name "Podesta"... Buenos Aires dialect ("Lunfardo") is a mix of Spanish and Italian. Argentina food is pasta with the best meats in the world...
xxx
RDuarte - uma cerveja Sagrès para você (o vinho verde) Obrigado, conosco Portugal muito bêm - Cascais, Coïmbra, Porto, NS de Fatima, Algarve... e também Madeira o Açores...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[aviatorpepe]

As a Latin American who works for a legacy carrier in the United States, and very often flys to Central and South America, I can tell you that some of my colleagues show no interest in learning at least some basic Spanish. Even though ICAO recommends the use of English as the official aviation language, its use is not required. In fact, in some instances it may not be practical or even safe, especially in the case of a local pilot whose English skills may not be the best.

The bottom line is that as professional aviators who fly international routes, it is in our best interest to learn at least some basic language skills of the regions in which we most often fly.

P

[planeenglish]

hello all, I thought you all might be interested in this.
Aviation English or “plain language” has been stipulated by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) as the language in which pilots must have a proficiency level 4 or above on the scale issued in Doc 9835 AN/453. This is the dialogue in which pilots and air traffic controllers must use when the standard phraseologies issued in previous annexes are insufficient.
ICAO formed The PRICE Study group to investigate the theory that lack of language proficiency had an effect on events in civil transport. After consideration of over 27,000 incident and accident reports This group of experts determined that low English language proficiency was a predominant factor in many of them. Therefore, ICAO has put forth these amendments to these following annexes.
Annex 1:
1.2.9.4
As of 5 March 2008, aeroplane and helicopter pilots, air traffic controllers and aeronautical station operators shall demonstrate the ability to speak and understand the language used for radiotelephony communications to the level specified in the language proficiency requirements in the Appendix.
Annex 6, Part 1:
3.1.6
Operators shall ensure that flight crew members demonstrate the ability to speak and understand the language used for aeronautical radiotelephony communications as specified in Annex 1.
Appendix 1
The language proficiency requirements are applicable to the use of both phraseologies and plain English.
See here...
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm
Best to all,
PE
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=233246

[Coldwing]

"The pen is on the table"

"The book is red"

"This cake tastes good"

for some pilots this sounds enough good

[HURZ]

Quote: The bottom line is that as professional aviators who fly international routes, it is in our best interest to learn at least some basic language skills of the regions in which we most often fly.

O.K. so I start learning polsk, russian, turkis, azeri, arabic, chinese, hindu, thai, viet, malay, afrikans, korean,french, spanish, portugese uups i speak it alrady, icelandic....

Holly **** thats toooooo many books.
Many countries like Thai India Malay etc use english only!
Sorry guys but I fly WORLDwide long-haul, meaning all continents... So you expect me to learn xxx languages??? Pls look at some european counties (not france or spain). They all have enough discipline to communicate in english.

Quote:
Annex 1:
1.2.9.4
As of 5 March 2008, aeroplane and helicopter pilots, air traffic controllers and aeronautical station operators shall demonstrate the ability to speak and understand the language used for radiotelephony communications to the level specified in the language proficiency requirements in the Appendix.
Annex 6, Part 1:

Thanks for this post, I hope ICAO gets tough on it.

Gents, I love south america for its people, but flying there can be a pain in the a.s.s. with some professional pilots having no respect for any radio discipline. I know you all can speak and read english. How should you otherwise study your A/C manuals??? So start up and try using the Gringo langueage and dont be to proud. YOU WILL MAKE YOUR AIRSPACE SAFER!!!!

Could the poor soles on board GOL still be alive if ONE language would have been used?

O.k. agora diz se estou errado?!
HURZ

[rduarte]

The accident with GOL has nothing to do with english, but with a lack of ATC/RADAR condition over the Amazonia forest.:=

RD

[aviatorpepe]

Holly **** thats toooooo many books.



'as-salāmu calaykum

In my short time flying in Saudi Arabia I made the effort to learn basic Arabic, which helped me a lot while flying.

maca salāma


P

[Hunter58]

@HURZ

and of course all 'native' english speakers will both as ATC and pilots speak absolute standard phraseology as from that very moment on as well.

Gringolandish is NOT an approved ICAO languague while Spanish actually IS!

[HURZ]

Gringolandish means, if you read the post again:

Gringo language --- Gringolanguage means ENGLISH ---

ENGLISH is an ICAO language.

So lets see what comes out in 2008.
Sorry to say this, but I have the impression that some in SAM are afraid to speak english because they could make a mistake. Come on guys, we dont have the loosing face mentality here like in China?!

Annex 1:
1.2.9.4
As of 5 March 2008, aeroplane and helicopter pilots, air traffic controllers and aeronautical station operators shall demonstrate the ability to speak and understand the language used for radiotelephony communications to the level specified in the language proficiency requirements in the Appendix.
Annex 6, Part 1:
3.1.6
Operators shall ensure that flight crew members demonstrate the ability to speak and understand the language used for aeronautical radiotelephony communications as specified in Annex 1.

[rduarte]

Gringolanguage = english = OACI language = french = arab = spanish = russian

And I would to know what kind of test it will be. :ugh:

Perhaps we will see, 70 % of the aviation grounded worldwide .:mad:

[planeenglish]

Perhaps this can help
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=233246
http://ulc.gov.pl/download/ICAO_LPR/ratingscale.html


Best to all,
PE

[Hunter58]

Gringolandish unfortunately has very little audible resemblance of english. It might be written alike, but everytime I hear it spoken I have trouble following it, especially when distorted by electronics and transmitted by VHF wavelenghts. Adding extraordinary speed to gringolandish does not make it better. I have, interestingly, met an enourmous amount of people in the US who were continously demonstrating their ability to speak extremely clear and understandable english, but somehow these people almost never seem to make it into the professions of pilot and controller.

Using plain, simple, relatively slowly spoken ICAO phraseology might of course cure these problems, but it is much too difficult for 'the natives' as it seems. Far simpler to tell the others to please learn all different slangs of Gringolandish.

English is an official ICAO languague, but gringolandish is NOT! So let us see how many people up north are able to pass the ICAO madatory test.

[BelArgUSA]

Gentlemen -
xxx
Reading all opinions expressed here, it looks like we all speak "level 4 English" or better. Yes, I am for English as our common communication idiom in the skies, but I support the right for nations to use their local language(s) besides English, under certain circumstances. In Argentina, as an example, we recommend use of English and approve the use of Spanish for aviation.
xxx
The Argentina AIP (Aviation Information Publication) informs that the various international airports in Argentina, such as Ezeiza (Buenos Aires), Cordoba, or Rio Gallegos have communications in English, but that for all other airports, Spanish is used, and English language ATC might NOT be available on tower and taxi frequencies. If you go to the other airport (domestic traffic) of Buenos Aires, Aeroparque, there, only Spanish is used at that airport, as it is with most smaller airports in Argentina.
xxx
Also, I would inform you that we have 2 types of R/T licences in Argentina for pilots, one that is restricted to Spanish, the other, (held by all pilots working for air carriers) requires knowledge of English. Expect all VFR traffic to speak Spanish only. Some years ago, I sent a note to the Argentina DGAC secretary, to require an English proficiency test for the issuance of an Argentina ATPL. I understand it will be required soon.
xxx
Many AIPs of other countries do have similar language limitations.
xxx
Interesting to note, that when Air Force One (with USA President Bush, and previously with Clinton) visited Argentina in the past, a team of ATC specialists who were fluent with the English language, were sent to the airports where Air Force One was to operate.
xxx
Hurz - I am also a "worldwide" pilot (remember PanAm by any chance?). Maybe my AR now does not fly as many places as your LH, but I have flown three times to the South Pole and back, on tourist flights, and I report to you that the pinguins there do not "quack" in English... Please inform the LBA...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[HURZ]

Hi BelArgUSA,

yes I remember PANAM and yes I was also doing south pole flights for our weathermen from the DLR, but I´m NOT LH. It doesn´pay of any more to fly for a german carrier.

However the rule about EZE is very interesting. That´s the kind of stuff i was looking to hear about.

But imagine you fly into a brazilian international airport, lets say REC and you have to give controls to your F/O since you are the only one o/b able to speak porugese, because the controler has no idea about english except yes and no.....

If you are talking next time to the Argentinian DGAC it might be worth recomending that Argentinia goes the first step to recomend to the other MERCOSUL countries, or even more, to have english as mandantory language at ALL AIRPORTS OF ENTRY (intl arpts) within south america and on certain airways normally used by foreign carriers.

As you see I just joined pprune and I´m impressed about the professional way things are discussed here.:D

So long HURZ

[BelArgUSA]

Hola Hurz -
xxx
Have you heard (or seen) about the CNN report about Air China and JFK tower and ground control in "English"... I hope we are better than that in South America. I am for English in aviation communications, but I am liberal to agree to limited use of local languages. Yes, all pilots should be able to speak a proficient level of English, and so should it be with ATC controlers.
xxx
Yes, I realized you recently joined Pprune and its forums, so also welcome you, and look forward to meet you again in our discussions.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[planeenglish]

Dear BelArgUSA,

Please see here...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=282308

I agree wholeheartedly with you that you all here have a skilled command of the English language (written at least). The problem unfortunately is everywhere. It is a communication problem more than a language proficiency problem.
I believe that in this incident between the Air China and JFK controller, the controller did not help the situation at all by getting upset and using plain language when standard phraseologies sufficed in some situations. I know there are complicated operations at JFK that require one's full attention, it is possible that these pilots of the Air China were new to JFK. Who knows? The FAA. I spoke with some experts and they assure me we need to hear all of the recording of this transmission before making judgments. The journalists, as usual, made a "mountain out of a mole hill". The Air China pilot in the video was announced as having passed the language test when I have been assured by the testing body that he has not. They ignored the representative's statement regarding the fact that radiotelephony procedures were not followed and they translated the transmission incorrectly. RKO???

The problem in communications is real, what the journalists say is not.

Sorry to have taken this thread off subject but I feel it is a real concern. I am so happy to see your forum talking about the problem, let's work together to fix it.

Best to all,
PE

[Farrell]

Only a few days ago, I had a discussion with some contacts about the situation in South America.

It would appear that there is a lot of the "head in the sand" behaviour happening.

The only country that I know of in the region who are just about to embark on a training course for their ATCOs is Honduras.

I was asked to go out to Chile a while back but they have decided to hold off for a while until they "see what the others are doing!"

planeenglish - nice to read you - hope all is well on your side of the world!

[planeenglish]

Well Howdy do, Farrell,

Nice to "see" you too.

To defend SA, Peru has the ATC's tested and working hard on meeting the requirements. The person who is incharge is a personal friend and really A1. I know the Brazilain gov is doing something. They even sent their teachers to be trained at the FAA. Argentinian teachers are active in Av. Eng. The CAA's may be burying their heads but the people who work every day in this stuff are trying to do their best. I know the teacher for TAM is making progress. I also know that the teacher from GOL is also top-notch. I also know that COCESNA has been involved.

It's not all of SA but some, better than none don't you all think? The condition here in Italy is just the same, head burying and all, so I figure at least some of them are doing thier job.

Best to all,

PE

Farrell will you be in Cambridge?

[Gargleblaster]

Regarding this subject, I came to think of this illustrative little sketch:

"Mayday, mayday, mayday, I am zinking"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zW8oA2AEio

And now that I'm at it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_ve37gVwxw

:)

[planeenglish]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvrbMjDvcX8

[allatp]

I do not see what the problem is. I speak all the time in english to the controllers in Aruba, Curacao, Panama, Colombia, etc. Everybody seems to be fit for the challenge, including other airline pilots. As far as my personal experience goes, I find a lot of professionals here in S AM (meaning pilots and controllers) to have a pretty good knowlege of technical english.

Saludos,

AA