Emirates stopping DEC

[Donpo]

Am looking at applying for DEC in about 12 months time when I have the required flying time, but have just heard on another ME site that they are stopping this and that in 12 months time the good villas will be gone. Can anyone shed any light on this for me? I am non too keen to go back to the right hand seat as am a LT where I am, so to spend 3 years before getting the seat change is not sounding that much of a good move.

Would appreciate any confirmation on the rumour.

[Tail Rota]

Dude!!!!

stay right where you are......:E ...your compny needs you!


TR:ok:

[mohdawang]

Hi Donpo,
Do, please do come over. Have not heard of any stopping of the DEC programme. Those whingers on the RHS are **** scared that their grandiose fat plans for the glorious 4 shining bars have gone pear shape. They talk of thousands and thousands of hours and prior PIC hours; mind you, these are hours built up in the bushes with props where a jet trip of one hour takes eight. Or doctoring of hours whilst flying cargo in freight operators with dubious record keeping. Ya ya do flame me, but people...know thyself.:ugh:

[Lou Stulewater]

MO ,
Finally someone who says it how it is.
nice one.

[airbus757]

Dude. Are you saying that time in a beaver on floats is not real time? I think it is the best time. It is where you learn to fly.

7

[Panama Jack]

The last 6 posts essentially sum up how pilots can be their own worst enemies and how in the grand scheme of things, we shoot ourselves in the foot.

[Aircav]

On every post there has to be at least one Muppet, but the two here should be given the special Muppet award for being the most stupid.

mohdawang, your comments are offensive to any professional aviator and being based in/from Indonesia you should be very careful where you chuck stones, after all you have the best safety record in the world over there.:=

As for Lou, sorry you didn't make the grade, but in your case at least the system worked and your crappy attitude got found out. :D Sour grapes does not give you the right to slag off a whole group of people, as you did in another post. I guess if you are flying 767's in the UK you must work for one of the premier airlines......NOT. Were you never an FO? that is if you are even a CAPT now. :ouch: Don't comment on things above your intelligence level, you just show how much you don't know.

Wind your necks in and get a life:mad:

[mensaboy]

I highly doubt the DEC policy is ending as this would clearly be an admission that it is not working. There has never been a larger gap between suitable applicants and available pilot positions, so if the DEC policy is effective as we are constantly being told, then it should be expanded and not abandoned.
There has been a subtle indication that management has realized this policy has caused more problems that it has solved and in fact will turn out to be more costly in the long run than sticking to a somewhat normal pilot career advancement program. This would have stopped part of the exodus as well as not contributed to the massive decline in applications.
This is a very good job at EK, in spite of all the efforts of management to ruin it. Fortunately for us, we have economics on our side, and as we all know, profit is top of the list when it comes to policy at this company. We need pilots, we need more training resources and good trainers and shortly even our short-sighted managers will realize that we are way behind the power curve and this may end this period of chipping away at our T&C's.
As for the initial post, i'm quite certain that EK is purposely 'saying' that the DEC policy is stopping, simply as a means to spread this rumour. This in turn they hope will encourage prospective F/O's to begin knocking on EK's door. In the mean time, they will continue to hire DECs, slipping them in the back door under our very noses. And before anyone gets their panties in knot, I have nothing against DEC's, in spite of the fact that we managed to attract a few odd individuals to say the least. It is the DEC policy that has been one of the biggest blunders of this airline.

[atpcliff]

Hi!

My buddy has no widebody, no heavy, and no oceanic experience. The EK recruiter told him he was elligible for a -777 DEC slot.

Mensaboy:
My CEO (the wife) has a career job in the US.
What are her prospects for getting a job in Dubai? What jobs are available to women there?
If she decided not to work, what is life like for female spouses in Dubai? She is originally from CYYZ, and she likes big cities. Oh, she also likes it hot. We go to KPHX and Mexico in July for vacation.

I am considering applying. I need about 100 more hours. I am not sure if we would love or hate Dubai.

Thanx!

cliff
KYIP

[BigGeordie]

Well, if you aren't sure if you would like it but you like warm holidays why not come out on holiday for a couple of weeks and look around. Dubai is changing all the time so you can't rely on what a buddy said it was like a couple of years ago- you have to see for yourself. And anybody who is married and comes here without his wife knowing what she is getting herself into is nuts.

There are lots of jobs for wives but it depends what sort of work she is looking for.

[atpcliff]

Hi!

She's a stockbroker-has worked in the industry since age 20-now 47. If I got an interview, she would be coming.

She's the CEO, and if she doesn't like it it's a no go.

cliff
KYIP

[atiuta]

My buddy has no widebody, no heavy, and no oceanic experience. The EK recruiter told him he was elligible for a -777 DEC slot

Sad, but true.

[hans_airbus]

Ya the oceanic experience is very very important. I am just wondering how we gonna manage the Sao paulo flights. Nobody with south atlantic experience. Very very sad. But we can ask the south americans to do the flights. By the way I had no Saudi arabia experience when I joined.
Very sad.

[wastafarian]

http://www.grokdotcom.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/blind-leading.jpg

[ruserious]

From the picture above it looks like TCAS has put on a bit of weight and ED has aged a bit in the last year. I guess that's what being management here does to you :}:}

[hans_airbus]

Hi Brokenenglish,

Yeah it was me. How do you know?

[Chuck Y]

Thylakoid, you are absolutely correct since they have fo's of your caliber they definately don't need outsiders with +10000hrs widebody experience. They need YOU, YOU are the man, YOU are the best, the sun shines out of YOUR a**. I would really enjoy sitting with you & getting so quality aviation advice from you. I wish I could be just like you. All bow down & worship Thylakoid:}

[johnpilot]

I am a DEC and I find no reason to believe that the programme should be stopped.
I think we bring allot of experience into the airline and the FOs in the right hand seat have allot to learn from us that come into the airline.

No first officer that i have flown with has as much experience as a Commander as I do.

I do not have experience in the region, but so what? Some of the guys I have flown with have no experience in short field take-offs, in circle to lands, in de-icing, etc.

They learn from me and I learn from them.

It is not called babysitting ,it is called resource management.

I am the captain responsible for the safety and efficiency of the flight, and I use all the resources, including the co-pilots knowledge of the region to provide a good product to the customer.

I have not flown a heavy wide body before, but I have not been challenged yet.

Not many pilots have been challenged either. An aeroplane is an aeroplane...

Those that have been challenged have remained in the RHS for a reason.

I readmy NOTAMs, I read my route manual, prepare for the flight and go do a job that has been done again and again by many others.

I believe that those who are in the RHS better show some respect and patience.

It is not about seniority, but about merit.

I am sure that Emirates management would have utilised your skills and knowledge if they thought it was up to the required standard.

They are expanding and need all the good guys then can get.

Do the job, take the money, go home, and keep smiling...

If any of you in the RHS believe that you deserve better, get up and go get the job you deserve. It is a pilots market.....

Other wise enjoy, observe, learn and be patient......

[Fart Master]

Quote "No first officer that i have flown with has as much experience as a Commander as I do. "
That right because you took his bloody job!!!!!! Moron

Oh crap I just read the rest of your post, gotta be a wind up, w***er

[typhoonpilot]

I am a DEC and I find no reason to believe that the programme should be stopped.
I think we bring allot of experience into the airline and the FOs in the right hand seat have allot to learn from us that come into the airline.


The top reasons the airline should not hire DECs.

1) They would get far more applicants if they had a relatively stable progression up the seniority list from new hire F.O. to captain. Having DECs takes almost all the incentive for experienced pilots to apply to be an Emirates First Officer.

2) DECs can be loose cannons. People who play the game while in training and then go "cowboy" once on their own. We know a few of these exist and they are definitely a safety issue.

3) DECs from third world countries who magically have 8000 total and 3000 PIC. Most get caught in the interview, but I'm sure a few have slipped through.

4) EK First Officers with 18 months in seat hired before the DECs came are far more qualified to Captain an EK jet than a narrow body domestic skipper from Europe, Australia, or the USA.

5) EK First Officers know how to spell "a lot" :E


Anybody care to add more?


Typhoonpilot

[EGGW]

So Johnpilot your ex Ryanair!! I guess we can workout who you are. I am sure the Fo's find you an inspiration (not).

You obviously wriggled your way through the selection process. One of the many twats we have as DEC's, who think they are god's gifts... :ugh::ugh:

EGGW

[emratty]

RYANAIR! and you get a DEC position with EK that sums up the DEC recruitment perfectly!!
p.s johnpilot i would like to guess that you are the only DEC from ryanair so making arrogant posts like that is not going to make you any friends here just ask Tartan Guy about that.

[Watchdog]

surely has to be a wind-up....or 'JP' are you really the arrogant w**ker you make out to be?? :suspect:

[PendekarTunggal]

jp, please ignore those who rant & rave...keep on posting. We like your style!

[777SandMan]

:ugh:Dudes, glad some of you are not part of management - or maybe you are! The ONLY reason for DEC's at EK, is that their are not enough NEW JOINERS to replace the F/O's moving to the left seat! Simple isn't it!:=

DEC's are being scaled down - a fact from recruitment. Having flown with DEC's and those who transitioned through the ranks, I can honestly say that those who upgraded from the RHS, are a better and safer bet than the majority of DEC's. Make no mistake, their are some really great individuals selected as DEC's, but the majority battles to get a company culture established. You can feel when you fly with them that they are still in thier previous employers mode of thinking - which can be scary at times.

If EK requires DEC's, employ them, if not, let them snooze!

[Not Discovering]

For gods sake guys stop bashing each other up for all your current woes :ugh:. The only people to blame for your current situation are your wonderful management who don't give a toss about you in the first place. If they deem that DEC's with questionable experience are better than upgrading the guys that are in the RHS ,than my suggestion is to pack your bags and leave. Life is too short and sitting in that god forsaken place and complaining is not going to solve anything. They have shown all of you what they think of you, so isn't it about time you showed them what you think of good old EK:ok:. Been there done that and left,thank god!

[Diesel8]

I agree with TP, however, as one that looks towards emirates ever so often, it has to be said, that I would never consider leaving my current job for a FO slot with emirates.

This isn't a question of being to good to be an FO, lords knows I am not, but more of a renumeration/advancement point of view. Things at EK change at a moments notice and if I was hired as an FO, then six months later, if the DEC program was back on, I would be hosed.

I do not know, who gets hired as DEC, sure there are some "gems", but also there must be some good people, who might be great FO's and given a bit of time in the EK system, great captains, but they would not have joined as FO's and hence, EK would be looking at rostering problems.

Yes, I worked for a company that decided to hire DEC, even though I was eligilibe for an upgrade and had passed the sim assesment test and it sucked, but that is how it goes, for better or for worse.

The way I see it, unless EK pays their FO more and assure them, that upgrades happens as seniority predicts, then no one with good qualifications will hire on as anything other than DEC's.

[Wiley]

I believe that those who are in the RHS better show some respect and patienceIs it just me, or have others also found that people who believe respect should be shown to them just because of where they park their dierriers are all too frequently the least deserving of any respect at all?

[EGGW]

Its not just you Wiley...

[johnpilot]

EGGW, and Wiley hello,

The respect comment was not requested and or demanded by me towards me.

It just shows how little you understand of what is required of you to be a Commander of an aeroplane.

It also shows why you have trouble understanding why it is that EK wants DECs and why DECs are good for the airline.

I have all the respect from all those that matter to me. I have never needed nor seeked the respect of fellow colleagues who I do not know, and who I will never see again.

The colleague in the right hand seat is just a co-worker who has to perform to the required standard and give me all the support, not because I ask it, or need it, but because he or she is a professional and has a duty and obligation to contribute to the safety of the flight.

As your manager I ask of you to do your job. I do it in a very nice way because it gets results.

If you let your emmotions get in the way of your work responsibilities, then not only are you negligent, but will never be a proper professional airline captain.

My flight deck environment is always pleasant and happy because I am a professional, and I do not allow the immature thinking of some of those in the right hand seat influence the Safety, efficiency and well-being of the customers.

I have manners, and I am very capable of putting up with anyone for 12 hours at a time.

Work is work, and time off is time off. I hardly see anyone again after we do a flight.

What you think and feel outside of the flightdeck is not my problem. I was hired to do a job as an airline captain, not a co-pilot psychologist.

Your issues with the management are exactly that, your issues..... Solve them and talk about them with those that care about you.

I only care that when you fly with me you do it professionally and civilised as is expected of me as well.

I do not believe that we are having a competition on the flight deck as to who is the most knowledgeable. If you are that is great, I learn something from you and it helps with the flight.

I still get paid my salary, and I still do my job, which is to manage the flight.

I will say it again, so that it sinks in... I manage the flight.

Good managers are not those who know everything, but who know how to utilise their resources well, solve problem, understand the politics and stay out of the lime light.

The reason Emirates needs DECs and likes DECs is because we know how to manage flights. We have been doing it for years and as experienced Commanders they know that we can adapt and adjust to the requirements of the Middle East, or the Far East etc.

Some one in the office has decided that this is the best way forward. I do nothave to answer for policies which I did not write, nor did I request for my benefit.

All of us will move again when a better opportunity comes. When you have the experience required to move to a different job as a captain you will do so. When you can command more money because of your experience you will do so.

I do not need the attention, nor the approval of the colleagues in the right hand seat, as I am not running for prime minister....

I am not a politician, and as a professional who does a very ordinary job that is done by many others around the world I do not get excitted about the company, its policies and weather or not I should or should not have come to Emirates because some FO is being disavantaged.

You also came here as a co-pilot because you did not meet the criteria for DEC. You did not come here to gain experience, and if you did then get it and move on.

Any of you who believe in a seniority system in the expat world are very naive.

That is your problem, not mine. I do not care if you have been let down by management. Join the queue, we all have.

I do my job and I stay at a place as long as it suits me.

I am not emotional about work. It pays the bills. I, like most, want to work as little as possible and earn as much as possible.

Every one comes here for different reasons. I came for my reasons. I did not jump any line. I was hired for a job which was advertised for by the Employer.

Best of luck with your upgrade when the time comes.

[fullforward]

Brilliant post! Congrats.
Maybe this stop all this useless baby crying...

[BigGeordie]

"I hardly see anyone again after we do a flight," says johnpilot. Is anybody here surprised?

I bet there are a few F/Os putting 1,000 points on "avoiding flying with" after a fun packed 10 hours on the flight deck and a layover with you.

Please, please tell me this is a wind up and EK didn't actually hire this idiot:yuk:

[johnpilot]

BigGeordie,

I understand from your post that attention span is probably not one of your strong points, I also understand that emmotions are probably hard to control.

Refer back to my post about not being hired as a co-pilot psychologist nor to be your friend...........

If you read it properly and let it sink in, you will realise that what I have said is an un-emmotional account of the facts.

I assure you, I realy do not care if you bid not to fly with me.

I believe that you probably have an acceptance problem and need buddies to confirm what I great person you are.

I do not need that self reassurance. I believe in family values, and very few real friends.....

I did not come here to make more friends. That does not mean that I am not friendly, polite, and corteous to my neighbours and colleagues.

You need to re-think the terms friendship, being friendly, having manners, professional, and un-emmotional.

Just because I speak the truth and you do not like it does not mean that I cannot have a perfectly normal useless conversation with you on the flight-deck.

I assure you that we will not solve the problems of the world, nor will we solve the issues of Emirates on a 12 hour flight.

I also know that you are not interested in my life and daily chores beyond the 4 or 9 day trip we do, as I am also not interested.

In the whole world I mean nothing to you and you mean nothing to me.

I have been in enough companies to realise that we are only significant to those who we love and love us.

You believe that just because my views on reality are different I am not friendly enough on the flight-deck. That is your choice.

Some of the guys I fly with are pessimists and all they do is complain about their situation, others are optimists and believe that the economics will change things for the better.

I am offering you a different view.

Be a realist and adjust your sails to take advantage of the prevailing winds.......

[White Knight]

JohnPilot - well, before your time my dear chap everyone was recruited as an F/O... I'd like to point out that there are quite a few senior F/O's who were recruited before there were any "criteria to be DEC" and quite rightly these guys have every reason to feel aggrieved....... Well, hopefully things are looking up with the latest info to come from the crew portal.

From my experience with the DEC's I have to say that most are first class pilots and commanders, a couple were nice blokes but not up to the position. I could easily give examples but that wouldn't be nice on a public forum:} Too be honest I did fly with a couple of "through the ranks" guys who needed watching closely...

Whatever anyone thinks though, it's a fact the the DEC program caused a huge ""morale" problem within flight ops. The fact that it's coming to an end should cause some cheer:ok:

[EGGW]

Johnpilot I have been a Captain at EK much longer than you matey! I bet FO's bid 1000 pts every month to AVOID having to bear your drivel, that is spouted forth. Management should have a good idea of who you are!

Perhaps you could also use this oppurtunity to string a few paragraphs together and write coherently.
Don't get me wrong, some DEC's are good guys, no question, but some are desperately bad, with little route knowledge. try to be much less condascending in your posts.

EGGW

[donpizmeov]

White Knight,

The last of the FOs that were lied to about DECs not delaying upgrades are very soon to be upgraded. Those remaining knew all about it when signing on the line, and agreed to it. I think its very premature to think that the end of the DEC is nigh. EK is no different from SQ or KAL etc now, and DECs are now a part of life.

John pilot, read your first post again, and then tell us you do not need some of this reassurance you are accusing FOs of needing??? But I am sure that Wiley will be very interested in your short field takeoff tips for the B777 :hmm:.

Keep recovering.

Don

[White Knight]

Don - absolutely agree with you with regards to the F/O's who joined after the DEC program was instigated - they knew the deal. Good to hear that the last of the "lied to" guys are looking at courses....
I think you're probably right regards DEC's in the future - we need a hell of a lot of pilots, and they're not exactly arriving here thick and fast!!

[vomit comet]

:EThylakoid,i do not see what the problem with decs are..alot of airlines take decs in, not just ek..even if the pilot concerned was x ryan air so what! u forget that most of u guys(fos) joined ek with no ratings at all,the majority! jp joins ek as a dec,U JOINED EK AS A BUSH PILOT ******! :E
chuck y nice post:D

[montencee]

Seems to me that johnpilot, far from having his emmotions (sic) under control, is struggling with his own conscience over his employment at Emirates as a DEC. And this is manifesting itself as absurd postings attempting to justify, mainly to himself, his recent career choice.

Also absurd is that he makes himself so readily identifiable to anyone with the mildest interest about who the person might be who is posting these poorly disguised cries for help. He appears to want to be found out.

The following excerpt from a posting by johnpilot dated 22nd September '03:

"To all you guys at Emirates it is sad to hear that even your airline is beggining to change its behaviour towards its pilot body. It seems that after 9/11 the industry is in a complete mess, and that every manager's dream of fu..ing the pilots is coming true. I just hope that when the time comes and the market changes all of us have the tenacity and audacity to pay them back in the same way. DEC is not good news especially when it is not commom practice in operations. Emirates is becoming another Singapore, or Gulfair, and even Qatar airways might look pretty interesting to you guys pretty soon.
For those who have been there long enough, I am sure it is business as usual, for those that have joined recently well I am sure its going to be an interesting period. For those who were about to join, or who will join, I wish them luck."

[Andu]

Assuming that English is jonboy's first language, (since he says he comes from the UK), I just hope his flying and 'command' skills are a damn sight better than his spelling and grammar.

[Saltaire]

This is the exact reason for the sad morale within EK. F-wits trying to justify there own existence and self importance to think that EK really needs their special skill. They recruit the cheapest option avail and after needing an initial bunch for the 343, voila, they figured it was more cost effective to continue this option. What a great ticket for a Ryanair type or charter pilot who wouldn't have a chance at a CX or SQ or any other top tier airline for a DEC position. Everyone knows the standard has dropped and they are desperate for bodies. Not their fault, just an ideal opportunity. Can't blame them one bit but what a joke. DEC's have always killed morale and always will. Morale took a serious turn in early 04 and has continued it's decline, just as the DEC's arrived. Keep in mind, all of these guys would be hired as FO's just 4 years ago....and johnnie might have just got his narrow body command four years ago. :sad:

The whole system is terrible but "what to do"? We all must get on with the job and make the best of it. Or leave, which is a very reasonable option.

[hamil]

Ok, gentlemen, you have had several reasons to justify low morale, dubious EK hiring procedure, etc, etc. But I have some questions:
First, if an airline offers you a DEC job what would you honestly say?
a. No, thanks, unless you give me a position as a copilot because I don't want to ‘kill morale’ and ‘break the seniority list’.
b. Yes, when does my training start?
I don’t believe if someone would say A, but is a fault if your option is B? No, absolutely not, because for a long time, everywhere, several major, small, top-notch or poor airlines have been hiring DEC. However, what have you done to modify it or implement for example a cost-effective training instead of looking for bush pilots to fly as a DEC at EK? Have you tried to contact who is really responsible for this situation? Do you really think that Johnpilot and any other John Doe have motivated this situation and complaining anonymously at Pprune you will deserve more respect and EK could certainly review its attitude starting upgrade courses next week? Do you really think that EK will park its airplanes tomorrow if 100 FOs leave the company? Are you sure that all FOs agree with your opinions and would follow a strike or a mass resignation? If yes, why don’t you organize your group to get a more productive attention than telling jokes about those captains or your strategy during next flight with one guy of that group of Cessna captains when he asks for a gear up you will be brave enough as demonstrated here to say ‘do yourself’?
Question of courage, decency, real objectives and results. With these messages here... Never!
Good luck.

[Andu]

why don’t you organize your groupHamil, making a comment like that, it's obvious you don't live in the Sandpit. 'Organising a group' would smack of the 'u' word, and in the Sandpit, I can't think of a single word - (with the possible exception of 'zionistentity':)) - more likely to send senior management into a slavering frenzy. We don't even use that 'u' word in conversation; we say 'onions' instead.

Even if it was allowable to grow 'onions', a quick glance at the posts above should show you that the incredibly clever employment policies of EK recruiting since the company first started have ensured they have in their employ a so widely disparate pilot group that co-operation among pilots in forming a common policy to combat the hiring practices of those very same recruiters would be well-nigh impossible.

[ironbutt57]

Mensa BOY, while you may not agree with yankee plitics, your hatred for American citizens is a bit unbecoming, think about the nice "stable" life and employment you would enjoy if their corrupt practices didnt include a large military presence in the gulf....mmm...

[nolimitholdem]

Hamil,

I don't think anyone is on johpilot's case for accepting a DEC position. If I'm not mistaken I believe he's being taken to task for spouting off like an arrogant f&ckwit about it.

montencee,

good find on the old quote! Amazing how people change...

mensaboy,

change your meds man...your anti-American rants sound like a cry for help. Not sure what idiot European LCC DEC's have to do with Americans?

:confused:

[ojguilty]

mensaboy,

change your meds man...your anti-American rants sound like a cry for help. Not sure what idiot European LCC DEC's have to do with Americans?


The Littlest Canuck has a real problem with authority figures over 5'8", Nolimit. He's become completely unhinged over being hammered by a few DECs from the land of milk and honey, when he knows in his heart that he's the second coming of Chuck Yeager. :{

John may be European, but he's a true threat and an honorary American at six feet tall.

[ironbutt57]

Not too keen to defend John (toilet?) pilot's rather condescending attitude myself, but the attack on his percieved nationality is unwarranted..