BBC Tiredness Study

[Sallyann1234]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6236810.stm

[Hookerbot 5000]

Airline safety is being compromised by pilot fatigue, BBC News has found.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6236810.stm


Some 32 UK-based pilots said they had flown while unfit. Some blamed the situation on the intensity of work and managers ignoring their concerns.
A separate survey by pilots' union Balpa suggests 81% believe fatigue had affected performance; while 63% are flying more hours than five years ago.

UK-registered pilots may not fly more than 900 hours per year and there is no evidence this is being exceeded.

Industry groups say the airlines have an "exemplary safety record".

'Falling asleep'

Most airlines told the BBC News investigation their average hours had barely changed in the last few years.

The Civil Aviation Authority, which regulates the industry, estimates that pilots are flying 30% more hours than a decade ago but maintains the "finest flight time limitations system in the world" means fatigue is not an issue.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif

BBC research has found that the demand for more and cheaper flights - particularly short haul - has resulted in some pilots flying more hours and in some cases up to six flights per shift.

The pilots spoke anonymously for fear of losing their jobs.

One said: "I have fallen asleep unintentionally in the air where you close your eyes for a second and realise that 10 minutes have passed."
Another said: "A little minor thing can take your mind off the bigger task."

'Biggest issue'

Following the BBC's inquiries, the UK's largest pilots' union, the British Air Line Pilots' Association, questioned 534 of its members.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif In the UK we have some of the most regulated pilot flying hours and duty hours in the world http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif


Roger Wiltshire, BATA


Some 76% said their response times had been affected by fatigue, 72% said there had been an impact on decision-making skills and 41% they would refuse to fly if fatigued.

But 12% said they would not feel able to refuse duties even if exhausted, while a further 33% said they would refuse - but feared disciplinary action.
Overall, some 79% told Balpa the public should be concerned about fatigue.

Balpa chairman Mervyn Granshaw described fatigue is "the single biggest issue facing aviation".

He said: "At the moment we are not seeing it appear as accidents or incidents but we're getting closer to that point."

Encouraging sickies?

The industry highlights the fact that fatigue has only been cited as a cause in reported accidents and safety incidents on official databases in fewer than one in 1,000 cases.

Evidence gathered by the BBC suggests that fatigue has become a taboo subject and that pilots are scared of losing their jobs if they raise it.
"Whenever I reported that I was completely exhausted the operator says 'Are you refusing to do the duty?'" one said.

"He should not have been asking me, let alone bullying me into doing it."



The BBC has also learned of an incident on a flight to Europe.

The captain told his co-pilot he was exhausted, who suggested he "take five minutes kip - I'll take it from here".

As the captain rested his eyes the aircraft - on autopilot - began to turn, putting it on a collision course with another passenger plane.
Air Traffic Control radioed an urgent warning.

Realising there was no response the captain looked across to see his co-pilot asleep.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif How else are we going to get these people out of a situation where they could hazard an aeroplane? http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif


Dr Ian Perry


Corrective action was taken to avert danger. But in the incident report the pilot failed to mention that his colleague was asleep.

"I didn't want to get him into trouble," he told the BBC. "It's not his fault, it's basically what the company are doing."
Dr Ian Perry, one of the country's leading consultants in aviation medicine, says the number of pilots coming to see him who are chronically fatigued has doubled over the last five years to four or five people a fortnight, he said.

"I've been accused by some authorities of encouraging people to report a backache, a headache, a something - so they can have days off to recover from their fatigue.

"I don't deny it. But how else are we going to get these people out of a situation where they could hazard an aeroplane?"
The two groups, which represent the airlines in the UK, deny fatigue affects pilots.

John Hanlon, secretary general of the European Low Fares Airline Association, said: "Europe's low fare airlines have an exemplary safety record and this has been delivered by making safety the number one priority at all times."

He said a scheme is in place so its members' pilots were free to report any issues without having to divulge their identity.

Roger Wiltshire of the British Air Transport Association, said pilots are flying well within their regulated flying hour limits.
"Although short haul pilots are flying more hours than they were that's because the schedules are more efficient," he said.

[rubik101]

Roger Wiltshire is an idiot. Am I allowed to say that?
And just who or what is the British Air Transport Assoc?
Apart from him, the report seemed about right although the cruddy reconstruction looked, well, cruddy.

[spaceman18]

Ofcourse pilots get tired, but if they're fatigued then it is their responsibility not to fly. For me its that simple.

[fireflybob]

Yes spaceman18 but isnt it also the reponsibility of the operators and the aviation authorities to ensure that pilot do not fly when fatigued?

If a majority of pilots are flying when suffereing from excess fatigue, as the BALPA survey suggests, then surely there is something wrong with the system which is creating this situation?

You may be lucky enough to fly with an operator which is supportive and doesnt bend the rules. Some of your collegaues with other companies are not so blessed.

In summary - if only it was as simple as you naievly suggest!

[spaceman18]

Like i said, for me it is that simple. Its my license, not theirs.

[PAXboy]

Actually Roger Wiltshire said a lot more than that.

I have just watched the item on the BBC 1 Six o'clock news and BALPA did say that it was getting dangerous.

[fireflybob]

The Civil Aviation Authority, which regulates the industry, estimates that pilots are flying 30% more hours than a decade ago but maintains the "finest flight time limitations system in the world" means fatigue is not an issue.


Roger Wiltshire of the British Air Transport Association, said pilots are flying well within their regulated flying hour limits.
"Although short haul pilots are flying more hours than they were that's because the schedules are more efficient," he said.

Well as someone once famously said "They would say that, wouldn't they?"

[G-BOY]

It was probably a bit daft or Dr.Ian Perry to say on BBC's 6 O'Clock bulletin that he gave false notes to pilots to get them off work - he should have been honest in the first place anyway - but to say that on TV will probably have him struck off as a Doctor.

[Croqueteer]

Happily retired now, but no mention ever seems to be made that there is no provision made for rest breaks in a day's work. Office or factory staff are strictly regulated in these matters, but aircrew can do a 12hr duty with no stops. At least in the cockpit you can relax in the cruise, but the cabin staff can work the whole duty without time for a sandwich! I know from experience that this happens all the time. As has been said often, flight duty times are used to the maximun by companies, and not a guideline for unusual circumstances as was the intention. The general public think that aircrew have more strict hours than lorry or bus drivers, but as we know, this is a lot of rubbish!

[bermudatriangle]

the ftl scheme works fine as long as it is adhered to.we all get tired for many reasons not to do with flying and many that do,like reporting for duty at 0500 or 2230 and working varying shift patterns.i find it difficult to rest before late starts and am always weary very early in the morning,but we are not machines.no different than lorry drivers,police officers,nurses,doctors ,the list goes on,all with varying responsibilities for peoples safety and their own.bit of a non story for me.

[fireflybob]

Most will not be aware that it took a major accident to get any form of flight time limitations - I believe this was at Singapore in the late 1950s.

Around the time when I joined the airlines (1970) the Bader report into fatigue caused FTL limits to be revised. Before Bader a nights work could be Toronto-Montreal-Prestwick-Manchester-we would then ferry to London! After Bader we had to get off at Prestwick and a relief crew took the service onwards.

Although modern aircraft are more reliable with accurate autopilots etc my hallucination is that we are operating in a much less "user-friendly" environment. Just getting to the airport (and even the crew report point) on time having to fight the traffic can be a stressful experience. We are then faced with banal security checks etc. Rapid turnrounds with high traffic densities at airports which need more runways. Constant RT chat (what about controller fatigue too?) and multiple frequency changes due sectorisation and many heading and level changes. The list is endless - I love my job and the challenges I am faced with but my feeling with the fatigue issue is to be reminded of the Swiss Cheese model. We need all the holes to line up to create an accident and fatigue is one of those holes!
Human beings can work in "overload" for short periods quite successfully but when overload is the norm we are stacking up the odds for something to go wrong.

[Iva harden]

Its not the amount of hours that we fly necessarily, it is the type of hours i.e. in the middle of the night after being delayed at home for 3 hours, you plan your rest based on your duty but then end up flying a lot longer into the night/ morning......seeing the sun come up when you did not plan too....zzzzzzzzzzzz! To say that there is more efficient rostering....what a load of bo###cks, the airlines, especially short haul, are so up against it with low seat yields they try to squeeze 26 hours flying into a 24 hour day which does not work and you end up with delayed flights, delayed crews working further into the night getting more fatigued etc etc and so on!:ugh::ugh: The Airline management and CAA will only take note when there is a serious accident its only a matter of time. Flight time limitations is an out of date document, the CAA need to move with the times!!:ugh:

[Dream Buster]

The main symptom of Aerotoxic Syndrome (OP chemical poisoning) is chronic fatigue.

We all get fatigued and the roster is an easily measured and blamed factor but perhaps a mask of the real issuefor many people - both pilots, CC and passengers.

What about the factor that is not easily measured, you breathe all day long and is invisible?

Contaminated air. :eek:

Pity the BBC don't want to find out...why? - it is bad news and it ain't going to go away.

DB :ouch:

[moist]

Roger Wiltshire can say what ever he wants.
He clearly has no connection to REAL aviation, or he's paid by some airline to say anti pilot things.
Equals: AntiSafe To$$er.
Mr Wiltshire pm me with an email addy for a few choice words I could use "off air" please. Where the hell have you been while we are flying exhausted???
Just as a matter of fact Mr Whiltshire, tell us what do you know about FTLs???
Do FTLs take into account the following?
The type of weather, the type of defects we carry, the type of approaches we may have to make, the age of a pilot, the age of the aircraft we're forced to fly, the age and experience of my FO that I may have to prompt, the distance I have to travel to work, the delays I suffer, the bases I serve, the changes from earlies to lates in a realistic fashion, the number of airstarts in a 4 sector day....... etc. Do you even know what the above list means?
Who the hell is BATA? :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Reality Checks]

So the CAA thinks its FTL Scheme to be the best in the world. Their spokesman also thinks that it is "robust". Well if that is the case why is it actively encouraging airlines to adopt their own variations on CAP371, supported by Fatigue Risk Management?
To my simple mind these two positions are incompatible, but what would I know, I'm just the poor fatigued pilot falling asleep at the controls.

[effortless]

Never been an air transport pilot but I must take issue with the "my license my responsibility" brigade. It takes a very secure pilot to say "yes" when asked "are you refusing the duty then?" More and more of you are paying for your ratings and accruing bigger and bigger debts. The companies' investment in you is minute compared with what it was when they used to pay for training. They have the attitude that there are plenty more where you came from. I have seen the same in other industries. The result is that health and safety take a back seat. Senior management will always say "safety is our prime objective" but it is the middle manager who is left with the resposibility of implementation and he is only going to be judged on whether schedules are kept to. Accidents are rare enough and pilot error will always be the finding.

Well done all of you who spoke up.

[easyprison]

Well done to the BBC. Spot on.

I trust that that spoke from the CAA have never done 4 sector days with 20 min turn-arounds- 5 days running!

[chrisbl]

Well the BBC journo had solicited comments from members on this site so he seems to have done a fairly balanced report which reflected well the various vested interests.

I am not sure the public will be any the wiser though. If someone in authority says it is fine they go along with it.

[Willy Miller]

Reading the article most non pilots would think we work a 17 hour week.
They should refer to the max DUTY hours that short haul pilots are more likely to encroach. I worked 180 hours last month, work days typically 7-10 hours with no breaks at all for food or rest. Also It's not just the work load but lack of down time. I work three earlies, two lates then have 56 (can be reduced to 54) hours off. The same as leaving the office at 10pm friday and returning at 6 am Monday.

[EpsilonVaz]

I would have to agree with you there Willy Miller, a non pilot reading that article would think "17 hours? Geez".

They should infact mention duty hours as this can paint a completely different picture.

EpsilonVaz

[randomair]

17 hours a week???.....what about that 15hrs 30mins duty to sharmelsheik that i did last week? I am also doing it again this week....and the week after.
So that must mean i get the rest of the week off?? riiiiiiiight!!
What other proffession takes your yearly hour total and devides it by the number of weeks in a year??? inc hols???....do teachers only work 30 hrs a week????...dont think so.

[no sig]

Bader made a distinction between tiredness and fatigue, the later resulting in significantly impaired reactions and performance by an individual in his duties. If a normally fit and well crew member is within the FTL and having taken due care to utilize rest periods as intened, reaches a point of 'fatigue', then it is possibly a failure of the company's FTL scheme. That should, in every case, result in an MOR/ASR, and a subsequent investigation as to why.

Although, I can understand why some would be reluctant to file an MOR, failing to stand up and do so may be masking a bigger problem. Fatigue should be reported as an occurrence and any company worth it's AOC would honestly look at the issue, not least of which it is on record with the CAA and the Company's flight safety people.

Further, crewing and ops officers should be trained in Human Factors/CRM and Basic Aviation Physiology and Health Maintenance and the use of phrases like, ' are you refusing this duty' when related to tiredness or fatigue should never be used.

[Monarch Man]

Further, crewing and ops officers should be trained in Human Factors/CRM and Basic Aviation Physiology and Health Maintenance and the use of phrases like, ' are you refusing this duty' when related to tiredness or fatigue should never be used.

Oh how crewing laughed :hmm: 'I don't care, you are LEGAL for this duty'

[BlueVikingFlyer]

The fault again points back to CAA and ancient duty time regulations. Crewings reply "it is legal" shows that there is no corrolation between rules and rality. I do an Egyps with 14:15 duty coming back at 04:00 in the morning and then 22 hours later start at 02:00 in the morning. How is my body clock supposed to adjust to that, and this is done twice or more per week in the summer season!! Yes, it is legal by CAP 371 standard, but several studies around the world has shown that this is the worst you can do to any person( and this is usually followed by a non-precision approach into UK airfield due to runway work!!). I feel very confident in the CAA when they say that we have the "Best duty regulations in the world". Safe to say behind a desk. When will CAA, BALPA and general public see that this is not safe ? hopefully before someting serious happens. Off to bed for another Egypt tomorrow :yuk:

[ShotOne]

I've just watched the British Air Transport association spokesman (BBC News25/7 in an embarassingly obvious wig) have a go at balpa's fatigue policy. This same organisation made little noise during the crises our industry has faced recently-fuel price rises, calls for VAT on fuel, skymarshals, introduction of then doubling of airline passenger duty, security fiasco. What did this esteemed organisation have to say? Not a word. But mention fatigue and they have a suit right down to TV house to say (not quite in as many words) that pilots are a bunch of moaning idlers.

Does this outfit have any function at all other than pilot-bashing?

[beardy]

Take a look at the website
http://www.bata.uk.com/Web/Default.aspx
Our objective is:
"To encourage the safe, healthy and economic development of UK civil aviation"[/QUOTE]
Followed by blurb about taxes, DVT and disabled access. No mention about safety.
If you feel sufficiently motivated to write to them after reading the press statement (modelled on O'Leary's view of pilots) you can use this address:
Secretary General: Roger Wiltshire

[email protected]
And no I don't think it's up to much, I wonder why they got airtime?

[PAXboy]

It is the detail of statement such as BlueVikingFlyer that are the points that have to be presented to the public consistently over the next years. They have to be in bite sized, media friendly sentences. Clear and calm. Over and over again.

In my view, one fine thing that came out of the BBC 1 (TV) 6 o'clock news on 25th June was the CAA saying that everything was wonderful and their FTL scheme the best in the world. This was fine for two reasons:

Most normal humans only accept that there is a problem when the government officially deny it. So, now we know that there is a problem.
When the media are picking over the [future] FTL related prang - someone can show this piece of video and ask the CAA if they were correct. No, it won't change that prang but it will be a step on the way to preventing the next.As we all know, the only two things that motivate people to action is money and death. Think how long it took the UK junior doctors to get relief from their ridiculous working hours? A decade? They had to get legislation changed and that is what the pilots have to do. In my view the Balpa rep did 100% better than the others in this short report - but not enough.

[er340790]

Just a PPL view...... what always puzzles me is the 900 hours 'one size fits all' legal approach. In terms of sheer workload, it has to be more demanding = tiring flying multiple short hops between many airports in a day than a single point-to-point trans-oceanic flight.

I know there are many other factors at play, but some max restriction on number of actual flights in combination with the 900 hours might be the way to go....... any thoughts?

[ShotOne]

you are dead right -the 900 hours is a blunt instrument. What's more it represents purely flying hours and takes no account of DUTY time. Long periods of time spent training, positioning, on turnround, on pre and post flight duty don't count at all in this total. BATA are well aware of this and know full well their notional 17hr figure is deliberately misleading.

[TimV]

Whilst highlighting a problem in the industry to the general public, I can't see how the SLF can realistically help out with this one. Sure, it's not difficult to work out which operators are putting their crews in this situation, but would boycotting them really help? They'd feel the pinch and try to squeeze more out of you folk and surely that would make matters worse?

[Reality Checks]

Fact 1: The CAA accept CAP371 is not robust enough in the environment airlines are forced to operate.
Fact 2: The CAA accepts that CAP 371 allows rostering practices that are fatiguing without there being any method in place to monitor that fatigue.
Fact 3: The CAA believes that CAP 371 limits are now being used as targets and this is not in the spirit of the guidance.
Fact 4: The CAA feel it is no longer acceptable to justify a fatiguing roster by saying "it is legal".
I can state this as fact because a colleague of mine was at a CAA Fatigue Risk Seminar where they stood up and made these statements.
Imagine my surprise when I see a CAA spokesman say that our FTL's are "comprehensive, robust and protective" .

[Big Tudor]

ShotOne

The 900hrs a year is a soundbite intended to make a pilots life seem easy. Job achieved on that score.
However, there is the 2,000 duty hours a year limit that not a lot of people seem to either know about or refer to. Unfortunately it doesn't have the required impact when you're trying to imply that pilots are under worked and overpaid!

BlueVikingFlyer - your 22 hour rest is mentioned in CAP371 however it is cunningly covered by the words "should be avoided". Oh how different life would be if the word 'should' was replaced with 'must'.

[tonker]

I sat eating a meal last night after 5 early starts and 6 hours of driving to a new base with the shakes. The CAA are looking the other way whilst crews admit to serious errors due to fatigue. Vested interests i sudgest:(

[beamer]

'Finest FTL in the world' - my response rhymes with the word rollocks. 900 hour is a buzz phrase for the CAA to use at will - fact is ALL of us know that fatigue is a huge issue. As SHOTONE says, its not a question of flying hours per se, its duty hours, earlies into lates into nights, positioning, longhaul/shorthaul mix - the list is endless. Yes, its what we get paid for but sheer 'professionalism' sometimes overrules commonsense and we fly when we should not - anyone who thinks otherwise, Roger Wiltshire and the CAA included is in denial.

[tonker]

Spot on Beamer

[Iva harden]

The CAA need to wake up and sort FTL out before there are accidents which inevitably will follow from continuous fatigue, spokes people such as Wiltshire should be gagged and given some paper to push in a quiet corner some where! The airline I work for have terrible rostering practices and are not interested in the welfare of their workforce....same old story...its legal, I think both the CAA and the Airline management should be held accountable if it were shown in an accident that the "pilot error" was due to fatigue due to the outdated system we still operate to in this country, we are supposed to be amongst the world leaders in aviation....more like a laughing stock. Long term health of pilots exposed to such working practices, contiuous fatigue and stress should also be on top of everybodies list, perhaps some litigation would get everyones attention:ugh: Wakey wakey CAA time to put some of our fees etc to good use to look after the UK aviation:D

[A and C]

The CAA are to busy trying to find a way to make gliders fit a Mode S transponder to deal with something as trivial as the issue of aircrew fatigue.

[RoyHudd]

Just around the corner, no accident required, just premature retirement. Or long-term sickness.

[Sallyann1234]

As a mere PPL my problem is the opposite one to yours - I'm not getting enough hours!
But I have a suggestion -
Would it be possible for a few shorthaul pilots to be given tests for alertness / reaction time / other symptoms by a suitably qualified medical person, between multiple sectors? I appreciate that airlines would not cooperate in this but with a bit of subterfuge it ought to be possible, certainly after the last sector of a long day.
A peer-reviewed study of results, published in a medical journal would have to be taken seriously.
Just a thought...

[Doctor Cruces]

Probably not.

The beancounters won't have it because it would have to be done within the crew duty day. If the crew are doing multiple sectors or come on duty at a disadvantageous time of day their duty period will already be reduced because of that. I can't see the average airline bean counter paying for extra crews to work so some can do these tests.

Can't see the crews going for it either because it will be just one more thing for them to do in an already packed day and another distraction for them in the sectors before with possible flight safety implications. (we have all read reports of crew being distracted because of non task related problems causing accidents or near misses.

[Sallyann1234]

As I said, I do appreciate that airlines would not cooperate, but couldn't the tests could be done immediately before going on duty and immediately after signing off? If necessary they could be done in a public area of the airport. That way there should be no distraction from duty.

[unablereqnavperf]

Quite the opposite in fact several airlines are taking part inthis sort of study,the orange brigade have been doing in for the last 3 years I was involved for a while. This research was responsible for the change of roster from 5/2/5/4 to5/3/5/4! Airlines are aware of the fatigue issues and are working to find solutions which are economically viable,there in lies the challenge!!

[sky9]

Just another suggestion.
If you are feeling fatigued or likely to be fatigued on a flight, email or fax your crewing department with a copy to the Chief Pilot informing them that in your view you are fatigued or likely to be so.
You are quite prepared to operate the flight if ordered to do so but will not report for the flight unless instructed but it would be contrary to section ???? of the company ops manual.
Follow this up after the next day with a notification of sickness with the reason for sickness as fatigued.
Keep a copy of the email or fax and if you get any comeback forward it to the CAA FOI.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

sky9
Buck stops with the Pilot, your trying to get the Company to take the wrap.
On one hand you may call it fatigue, on the other hand you could call it hard work :\

[Two's in]

a few shorthaul pilots to be given tests for alertness / reaction time / other symptoms

This test is already legislated for, some may know it as the correctly configured landing (that also doesn't put the SLF through the bins).:)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

The problem with the F word is that you have to mix the S word with it and S is for social. If you look at Monarch for example the beef there is 18-30 hours rest periods. So they have a social agreement to operate 2 nights only. This and CAP371 forces the Airline to roster 18-30hr rest periods before / after the 2 nights. Simple answer is 3 or even 4 nights with a hard rule for night 1 being short. Fatigue tests undertaken by UK carrier confirm the rationale
Which answer wins, the S word.
:\

[sky9]

Buck stops with the Pilot, your trying to get the Company to take the wrap.
On one hand you may call it fatigue, on the other hand you could call it hard work
No Mr Angry I'm suggesting a way for the pilot not taking the wrap from Angry Managers. The facts prove that there is no action taken because they cannot take action.

edited for spelling

[BlueVikingFlyer]

In regards to my previous post on pilot fatigue and Mr Angrys description of Monarchs Social policy, yesterday I received a 25 hour rest on my roster for next week. When I questioned crewing and fleet office that this was against recommeded policy I was promptly told " We will look into that".

Two hours later my roster was changed to comply with CAA fatigue recommendation: I got a one hour contactable in the middle of the rest period. Thus one period of 12 hours rest, one hour of contactable followed by 12 hours rest again. Fully in line with CAA fatigue recommendation, but no change anyway. Still 25 hours rest period, but on paper it looks sooooo good.

This is the type of practice that CAA should look at and create a "must" in stead of "should" policy. But are the commercial pressures to strong to do this?? Profit first, then on-time performance (Oh and if it does not interfere with other interest, lets throw in some nice statement about safety too)

Will try to survive another summer season again :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Blue Viking yeah not in the spirit of CAP371 but ...
Here's another example for you;
Operators to USA. Day time out, 24 hours @ destination (can't be helped really due daily schedule) overnight back to UK. Followed by days off for recovery.
Or the S word, no we want to do "back to backs" and have more time off afterwards. 3 x 18-30 rest periods and time zone shifts.
Who wins? The S word. When the S word rules fatigue mysteriously dissappears
:\

[TheGorrilla]

Was sat in the cruise over the pond on my last sector reading an article in the telegraph about pilot fatigue. Turned to the skipper to ask him if he'd read it, only to find he'd nodded off!!

[Dirty Mach]

Cap 371 is a LIMIT not a TARGET. If you use your engines at TOGA all the time, they burn out faster... The CAA really need to get a hold of this soon, or something nasty is going to happen.

well done to BALPA for taking this on this year :D

[beardy]

Mr Angry,

Social factors are extremely important to pilots and probably to you as well. As you are probably aware the human body can take a lot of tiredeness, but, with suitable period for recuperation will avoid fatigue. Most pilots would like those periods of recuperation to be taken at times which suit their body clock, which in turn is tuned by some of the zeitgebers to the body's social environment. It's also nice to be around and awake when the wife is (otherwise she won't be for long.)

I suspect from your comments that you know the price of good roster, but not it's value.

[bomarc]

;-)

I came in late, is this a study to see how many pilots are tired of the BBC?

[duststorm]

Unless you’ve run a marathon you simply have no empathy !

The symptoms of sleep deprivation are torturous. ( and were used that way during the war )
17 hours a week or a 17 hour duty is not relevant.

Flying an aeroplane when you’ve not closed your eyes for more than 24 hours is a living nightmare.

Experienced it – Comment !
Not experienced it – Listen and believe !

[Agent Oringe]

"Cap 371 is a LIMIT not a TARGET. If you use your engines at TOGA all the time, they burn out faster... The CAA really need to get a hold of this soon, or something nasty is going to happen.

well done to BALPA for taking this on this year "


I wonder how long it will be before BALPA cave in on this one due to pressure from the Airlines, CAA and Government?

Just like they did with the Cabin Air Quality problems that are still on going. :ugh:

[shoey1976]

Just a quick note to sincerely thank everybody who got in touch during the course of our research.

While our findings have now been broadcast, I'm still interested in the issue of fatigue, and other issues regarding aviation safety.

Please feel free to get in touch, in strictest confidence, if you have information on something which should concern the public.

Best wishes

Ian Shoesmith
BBC News
07769 977665
[email protected]

[RAT 5]

Still think there is an easy way to demonstrate the issue of rosters and their inbuilt protection against severe tiredness: NOT!

Firstly what a load of cobblers about UK FTL's being robust and fool proof. Which planet has he been on?

Solution:

Get the honorable chairman of BATA, & the head of CAA FLT OPs & Medical, and any volunteer Chief Pilot and any volunteer head of rostering plus as many bean counters as possible; get them all to do their normal job, in their offices with radios, toilets, endless coffee & snacks, telephones and chit chat to colleagues, normal humidity and full O2 level, but work to the roster of a LoCo pilot. 5 earlies, 3 off 5 lates, roster changes, delays etc. Work at home on SBY then be called in to work at the office, but then a taxi to an out station office etc. etc. Oh! and not leave their desk for more than 15 minutes in 11 hours.

When they've done that for 2 patterns, to their lovingly robust tiredness free FTL's, ask them again if they understand the issue. There's nowt like going to the coal face to see if it is really dirty.

[Ancient Observer]

Someone said: "never done 4 sector days with 20 min turn-arounds- 5 days running!"
CAA employs ex-airline pilots, and airlines employ ex-CAA pilots - even as managers! I know this is a rumour forum, but slagging off colleagues without any thought doesn't help.
Quick turnarounds are also not the only source of fatigue. Day after day of focussing doing longer hauls can also be knackering!

[Yossarian]

Ancient Observer, I have to agree. There are equally fatigueing longhaul rosters. The focus here has been on the shorthaul side, but longhaul, rostered poorly, can be tiring too for other reasons (wx, route, time zones, poor ATC, etc) An equally poisonous mix is long/shorthaul. Getting back from an allnighter from the Far East with a 16 hour break before a night turn can be murder too. Body clock, monsoon weather and many other operational issues can hurt too.

The CAA may have good restrictions, but the airlines need to stop using them as targets. In 21 years of flying various aircraft, I can honestly say that the pace has picked up. I used to wonder about what I would do upon retirement; now I wonder if I will make it that far. Something has to give.

[Airbus Girl]

There used to be a loophole of the definition of a week. Max duty hours in a week are 55 on your roster, 60 if delayed at all. My record is 63 hours in 7 days however it wasn't counted as a week because it didn't start on a Monday!!!! 17 hours and 63 hours. Hmm, some difference there. Being rostered over 100 hours flying per calendar month isn't unusual and in addition there is positioning at all times of day and night, strange airfields, and the endless chatter on the radio as you head east.

[RAT 5]

ABG.

Quite right. Others earlier, in management and vested interest positions, have said that pilots are severly limited in what they do, and none work more than 900 per year etc. etc. = 17 hours per week. Nollocks. Fecking nollocks!

I know of pilots who have flown +1000 hrs in 12 months because their company year was not a rolling year. That is allowed by one illustrious EU 'AA. Even under UK CAA FTL's I regularly flew more than 100 in 28 days long-haul. Their interpretation of the 28 day rule was grey to say the least. I would take off at 95 hours on day 28 and land in USA with 105 on day 28. 24 hours off, reduce back to <100, then depart USA and land in EU >100 again. 2days off then repeat. It made a nonsense of the rules. I phoned BALPA. Answer? They disagreed but said the CAA allowed it. What is a union for if not to police the rules. What does "max 100 hours in 28 days" mean if not just that. How can you depart knowing that you will land on day 28 with more than 100 hours?

That con, plus the roster week starting on a Monday, or whatever day the airline sees fit to choose. My body works per day, not Monday - Monday. 7 days is 7 days; it must be rolling, the same with a year. The bending of the rules is rife and there are too many blind eyes from the supposed inspectorates. It is not only pilots who break/bend the rules. I suspect that the very authorities who wrote the rules are sailing too close to the wind as well in their implementation of them. What about an independant inquiry into the whole matter; but not the white wash that we've seen in many previous investigations of industrial malpractice or goverment jiggery-pokery.

[RoyHudd]

How prevalent is fatigue in the UK pro pilot workforce? And is it age-related? (Forget discrimination here, this is medical)

[fireflybob]

And is it age-related? (Forget discrimination here, this is medical)


All depends on the individual I think. Whatever your age if you are overweight and/or take no exercise or do not use the rest period sensibly then you might be more susceptible to fatigue/tiredness. There is always the question of nutrition - how proactive are the airlines at providing their crews with healthy nutritious food whilst on duty? With the company I work for I have to take my own food to work so its down to the individual to ensure he/she has adequate food/drink whilst on duty.

In summary, I think there are many factors which affect the level of fatigue and I hardly think age is that relevant. Older pilots are usually more experienced and able to see the "wood for the trees" which might arguably mean they are less stressed and therefore less susceptible to fatigue.

[lordsummerisle]

Gorilla,

"Was sat in the cruise over the pond on my last sector reading an article in the telegraph about pilot fatigue. Turned to the skipper to ask him if he'd read it, only to find he'd nodded off!!"

Doesn't sound the most onerous of jobs really

[Jumpjim]

There speaks someone who doesn't fly professionally!

I'm 35, fit, exercise regularly, fly about 820hrs a year LH and regularly feel completely bu%%ered on all my days off....only to go back to work for an 8 hour time change in the opposite direction.

[RAT 5]

FFB:
"All depends on the individual I think. Whatever your age if you are overweight and/or take no exercise or do not use the rest period sensibly then you might be more susceptible to fatigue/tiredness."
Sounds all very simple. I once had a chief pilot who said that rest management was a major part of being a pilot, and if I was not rested before duty it was my fault. Rest periods are for resting. Again, sounds all very simple. However in the real world it does not work.
I've had many rosters of max hours followed my minimum or near minimum rest periods. In other words for many days it was work/sleep/work/sleep. There was no time or energy for excercise, especially with long-haul in such a pattern. Hours on end sitting down; weight went up, energy went down. Same true with intensive short-haul.
In the second case, minimum rest before early starts, real rest/sleep is not always easy. There is a real world outside & inside your house. They do not abide by the same schedule.
One of the problems with this whole argument is the immotive 'F' word. If fatigued it means you have reached your limit. In other words being 'very tired' is OK. I know many colleagues who are regularly 'very tired'. Should it be like this? I'm shocked when I talk to my doctor friends, some surgeons. Their schedules are appalling. If the patient knew they were under the knife of a tired person.......anasthetic is a wonderful thing. I wonder if the pax would also be shocked if they knew the truth of some of our schedules.
The medics think they can measure fatigue; I wonder; but this is why the word is used. The bean counters think they can quantify the limit and so use it. Thus they come up with a schedule, which in theory, should prevent fatigue. i.e keep you away from the limit. As has been said, everyone is different and effected in different ways. Thus there should be quite some buffer built into this schedule because there is a spectuim of individual limits. Is there an adequate buffer? There might be some, hence discretion. But the FTL's need to be used sensibly. They can not apply in black & white to all applications. For some uneducated twits to say that the FTL's are robust in preventing fatigue is to demonstrate that they know very little about the subject and should follow Eisenhower's advice.
In most applications, whether it is design or operational, there are buffers built in. It could be stress design of components or applications of operational limts. There are always margins. It would not seem to be the case with FTL's. It is often said that the weakest link in the accident chain is human, conveniently called pilot error. Many accidents have been a perfectly servicable a/c being dumped into the ground by a not quite so fully serviceable crew. All efforts seem to be going to make the a/c more reliable and less likely to break, but at the same time weakening the already weakest link by running the last link in the chain to absolute limits. It ain't rocket science to realise that it won't work for ever. Instead of being proactive, as aviation is supposed to be, the pressure of money is making everything reactive.
I would like to see a study by the BBC, or anyone else, as to why this is the case and the consequence thereof. I'm sure the public would find it sober and shocking reading. When was there a 'Paddington/Potters Bar' type investigation into a plane crash. In those train crashes the investigation went right to the top and deep into the culture of the industry. It included the regulators, incident histories, what was known in advance, management styles etc. Same happened after Herald of Free Enterprise. Aviation could do with something similar, before the worst happens.
There was a little of this with the KLM TFN accident, but the well documented cause of events stopped at the airfield and in the cockpit. I can not remember many crashes where the investigation has gone 'upstairs'. There were a couple which discovered deviations in engineering practices, known by management, which led to component failures. Rather than find out the real reason for this 'corner cutting' and cut out the root of the problem, the CAA's just introduced more/stricter paperwork filters. If there is an endemic attitude problem I'm not sure paperwork will cure it. It will then become a game to beat the system.The cancer has to cut out, deep.
Ask your self why there are so many youngsters queing up to get into airlines balanced by many others who, after 30 years or so, can't wait to quit? Something needs to change. Was it always this way? 20 years ago, I don't think so.

[moist]

RAT 5,

A good posting indeed.
However, at the end of the day we are responsible for preventing an accident.
If calling in sick is the method, then so be it.
If at some point in the future the company want to talk to me about the sickies, well so what! They haven't got the capacity to think and make a case, as one's allowed sick periods of up to 7 days without a doc's cert.
As it happens I have done it a few times, but all within reason, there's no "pattern" to be seen!
I call it Accident Prevention, by Self Regulation.

[yowdude]

hello folks i fly for an asian lcc and would just like to find out how other lcc's deal with redeye flights. we fly out of manila around 8-10 in the evening to several regional destinations and after a quick turn of 45 minutes were heading back to manila to arrive around 6-8 the next morning. landing 06 ,redeyed ,two man crew, sun at your face,headache and all. company authorizes NAPPING as to RON to save on mulah:confused:

[yowdude]

our company authorizes NAPPING as to ron to save on money:* im looking for a new job by the way.....

[Mr Angry from Purley]

There was an recent interesting MOR listed on the CAA list on a "fatigue" issue, not sure if it's available in the public domain though. It was to do with a schedule that was MOR'd as fatigueing. In response to the MOR a "Senior Management" Pilot undertook the schedule and said it was fine (ok he would do!). Other Pilots were asked for their views and they advised it was "tiring" but not fatigueing. It's worth remembering there is a difference :\