Learning to fly, only at weekends? (+ first post)

[Adam_]

Hi all. My first post here I believe :).

I'm currently learning to fly with a flying club based at Shoreham airport. Due to work committments (self employed) I can only fly at weekends. I also live a good 45 miles from the airport.

While the lessons I've had have been great, I keep having them cancelled due to weather despite it being the height of summer which, as I'm sure you can imagine, is very frustrating when you're just starting out and are itching to get in the air!

Obviously if I have a lesson booked for a Sunday and the weather is no good I have to wait until the following weekend to fly again. I can only imagine this getting worse as we head into Autumn/Winter and I would assume I'm going to spend a lot of time in my future lessons backtracking due to the 2 week gap. At £140/hour + landing fees I want to make the most efficient use of my time and also get my license ASAP so I can take to the skies properly!

Essentially I just wanted to vent my frustration and possibly ask the advice of anyone in a similar position. Short of moving next door to the airfield and flying after work during the week, is there any better way to manage my flying time to best effect? If I can't fly every week due to the weather, would it be worth switching from 1 hour to 2 hour lessons? I don't really want to fly Saturday *and* Sunday as it's a 90 mile round trip to Shoreham for me and that's a lot of time wasted in the car!

Finally I'd just like to say I've been reading this forum for the past month or so and I'm finding it a fantastic resource to learn about the real world of flying. Everyone seems knowledgeable and friendly with no sign of the trolls, troublemakers and charlatans you see on other (non aviation) forums. I hope I can contribute in some way as I start gaining my own experience.

[Adam_]

Thanks Emma (assuming that's your name and not really your plane reg) :D

It's nice to know other people are in the same position with work getting in the way of hobbies... fact of life unfortunately :(.

I did take my trial lesson on a Monday morning (we flew to the isle of wight) and I did notice how quiet it was at Shoreham and especially Sandown compared to the weekends. Unfortunately taking time off during the week other than that particular occasion is totally out of the question :(.

Are 2 hour lessons out of the ordinary, guys? I think I'll speak to my instructor about it next week. I'm used to working 12 hour days so 2 hours having fun shouldn't be too draining!

[WildDart]

I was as well doing 1 lesson a week for about a year, half of them got cancelled due to for circuits it needs to be near perfect.

If a lesson is cancelled use it wisely and revise for your airlaw and other 5 exams. Alternative stick with it and as your self employeed be generious on your time, maybe when a good week of weather is in sight try to book as much flying as possible, do it after work ect??

[chris 68]

hi adam,

i am a low hours ppl also, and very much in the same boat as you, except i only get to slot lessons into one afternoon a weekend ,saturdays normaly busy but i like it that way as i think if you learn when quite then suddenly its busy and you have suddenly incressed your work load purley as your not used to it, saying that some schools are cheaper during the week, which is a bonus in a expensive hobby.

any way you said about doing 2 hour lessons, is good idea but make sure you have a break, say one hour before lunch have lunch then a hour after,just gives you time to recope and gather your compshure again.

i am just started in the circuit , and i cant believe how draining it can be,you dont feel to bad while doing them but once you stop close down you realise your drained.

sorry was my instruters advice about the break by the way,he gave lots of reasons,all made good sense.

any way hope that helps, havnt said the reason i posted was to actuly say i dont get to fly every weekend either and i dont think it realy has caused me problems or cost me any extra money yet,
and i also have changed school fro one that was on my door step within a mile to one 50 miles away, much better value for money in my opion, more aeroplanes no landing fees extra, bit of a drive but much happier there,

not much of a writter so hope that helps and makes a little scence to you.

cheers
chris

[sternone]

Hi, my lessons are booked for 2 hours each time, but i end up with acutal flying time of about 1h30min or 1h45min due to getting the plane out, checklists etc...

I have no experience in having lessons of 1 hour but i can tell you that i'm quite exhausted after my 2 hours lessons. I choose for 2 hour lessons because i do not wan't to rush things and do it step by step without having to look at the watch all the time.

Happy landings

[Gertrude the Wombat]

If you can get the slots, you could try booking one each Saturday and one each Sunday. You'll only fly half of them, as you have observed, but you'll still get in the average one lesson per week ... and you'll get most value out of the Sunday lessons where you have managed to fly the day before.

Oh, and about the self employed bit ... I thought one of the main points of being self employed was being able to take time off work whenever you feel like it! - that's why I do it, anyway.

[michaelthewannabe]

yeah, what the others say. I've currently clocked up six consecutive lesson cancellations, and the forecast suggests there will be more before I next get in the sky again! So frustrating. I was apparently close to solo at the end of my last lesson two-and-a-half weeks ago, but since it might be the week after next before I next fly, the delay has probably added an entire lesson to recover the skills I've lost.

When I was at Fly-in-Spain in Jerez, the lessons were notionally two hours, but I found that I reached the limit of my concentration at about 1h20, resulting in a maximum block time for a lesson of about 1h40. So the best bet is to organise two (or three if you're feeling brave!) lessons for a day each weekend, and assume that you've got at a 50-75% chance of it being randomly cancelled. Provided that the rest of your life is flexible enough to work around this, it should make the best use of your available flying time.

Best of luck!

[BRAIN66]

Chill out mucker you have roughly 2-years to get your ticket according to reg,s.Just get your NPL first at 35 hours then worry about the rest the only thing you might want to consider the longer the time between lesson adds to the refresher and practise training which will add an additional 2000 at least on to your flight training.Maybe after your xcountry trip take time off work to finish off the rest and book your flight test.
Good Luck:ok:

[1d2d3d4d]

Hi Adam

I was in much the same position during my PPL training. I'd book 2 1 1/2 hour slots every other Saturday with at least a one slot break. Some weeks I would fly both slots, some weeks just one slot, rarely both slots would be weathered off. During the breaks I would talk to other pilots and instructors, ask about flight plans, even had a free ground school on radiation fog (one fog bound day) and if there was no one about I would sit out airside with the radio scanner listening to the RT. During training no time at the airfield need be wasted even if the weather is bad (there will be at least one bored instructor about to explain about flight plans, NOTAMs, TAFs, METARS, etc).

Regards Chris

[michaelthewannabe]

take time off work to finish off the rest

yeah, the problem with this is that there's only a small to middling chance that any time booked off will actually be flyable! Need a flexible boss. My current ratio for lessons booked/lessons flown is 4/18.

Anyway, Adam said he can only fly weekends because he's self-employed, so maybe it's not an option anyway.

1d2d3d4d's comment is most sensible. I've learned a hell of a lot from hanging out with instructors and other students, or just whiling away the odd half-hour with a receiver.

[Adam_]

You've all made very good points, especially the one about hanging around the airfield, listening to the R/T, talking to the instructors. Thanks, it's certainly food for thought :).

I'm not exaggerating though when I say that I can only fly at weekends. I can't take a week off for some intensive training either, at least not this year.

I guess I just need to learn some patience.

[PompeyPaul]

My log book shows that winter has been excellent for flying, whilst summer has been non stop cancelled lessons. Funny the number of people coming into the flight school enquiring about learning to fly thinking summer is better. I'd actually start around October \ November time and get your night rating into the bargain.

I do what other's here suggest. I tend to book 4 lessons, 2 either side of lunch on a Saturday, and the same on the Sunday. If I get all 4 then I make up for lost time elsewhere, if I don't then you may get _some_ flying.

I also make sure though, that if the lesson is cancelled that you sit down with your instructor for an hour or so and get through the books. I've generally passed an exam when I couldn't fly.

Don't underestimate how quickly you'll get to the test. I know it seems a long way off now but it will come quicker than you think. You don't want to get there and have to wait a month or so because you don't have your 7 exam passes (exactly where I am now). So if you can't fly, crunch through the books and get another exam done.

[Whirlybird]

Don't book two hour lessons. I've never yet met a student who could concentrate for more than an hour and a half in the early days of training, and some can't manage an hour. I teach on helicopters, which is perhaps slightly more intensive, but I have a PPL(A) too, so I know it's not all that different. If your instructor is any good, he'll be pushing you pretty much to your limit all the time, and you can't keep that up. I've abandoned lessons before now as the student obviously couldn't cope with any more - that's not a criticism; everyone is different, but there's no point in my wasting someone's money and time.

However, two one-hour lessons on the same day is a good idea. Or even three, but I tried that in my early days of training and found it too much...I simply couldn't take it in. If your instructor's good with people, he'll start to know when you're reaching your limit, but a lot of instructors are young and inexperienced...and anyway, you've got to learn this sort of thing yourself someday, so it might as well be now. Flying is all about learning about yourself, more than about manipulating the controls.

As has been said, when you can't fly, do other flying-related stuff. Study for the exams. Learn all you possibly can about navigation and weather - you can never know too much. Go down to the airfield, borrow the POH (pilot's operating handbook) for the aircraft you're flying, and read it thoroughly. You can never know too much about the aircraft you're flying either. Listen to the radio, chat to instructors, listen to more experienced pilots' conversations and join in if you can; overall, simply immerse yourself in the flying world. You'll pick up more than you realise.

In summary, don't make the mistake that many of us make in the beginning in assuming that flying hours are what count. The more study and preparation you do, the better you'll be able to make use of your flying time - so the less it'll cost you overall. You don't fly a certain number of hours and then miraculously get a licence...you get it when you're good enough. That often relates to the preparation and study you've done. And if it doesn't....well, then you're in real trouble, because you won't know enough from just scraping through the exams to cope when you're out there on your own anyway. :(

Above all, quit panicking. Unpredictable weather is normal in the UK. You're going to be going through this scenario for the rest of your flying life. And you can get lovely weather in the autumn and winter...like we had a wonderful spring this year. Or you might not. You have to get used to it, so you may as well start now.

Or....you could move to Australia or Los Angeles instead. :)

Good luck,

Whirly (instructor grounded due to weather, so lots of time to post on threads I've never even looked at before)

[michaelthewannabe]

Whirlybird is, unsurprisingly, right on the money.

Reminds me of the lesson I had with an optimistic instructor in Spain, who filed for for a two hour lesson...

After about 1h30 of intense tuition, I was in a descent aiming for 75 knots, and it was getting more rapid. "Pull back!", says the instructor. I am! Airspeed nudges 100 knots. "Pull back!", he says more urgently. But I am! What the hell is wrong... airspeed is approaching 110 knots, I'm pulling back...

"OK, you're confused, we go home, I have control..." as he pulls the yoke back from the forwards position I was pushing it into.

That was quite a shock, and I learned something rather valuable about myself. I think every student should be taken on a 2-hour lesson until their brain fails, just once.

[Whirlybird]

I think every student should be taken on a 2-hour lesson until their brain fails, just once.

A good point (though not necessarily practical). :ok: Far, far better that you find out about overload when you're with an instructor rather than when you're out there alone. :(

I have a rule. When a student starts to push the controls the wrong way after previously getting it right, or simply can't hear what I say when I've said the same thing about three times, or hears but can't send the messages to his/her hands and feet....

It's time to stop. Back we go for a coffee, even if we come out again later. And often a little chat about stress and fatigue. And if it's happened after less than three-quarters of an hour, a chat about individual differences, recognising one's own limitations, and not getting competitive or trying to be superman/woman.

You see, you can learn an awful lot without actually doing any flying...or paying for it.

Michael, I bet your instructor learned something that day too. :ok:

[grat]

Late this May I re-soloed again at my new club after a years break in my PPL training. It was not a good solo and my first landing attempt I aborted and did a go around. Second attempt was fine. Basically I am trying to get more solo hours and finding the weather very frustrating. I had not flown for three weeks and the rust seemed to set in quite quickly. I had a lesson yesterday and with the cross wind (it was small but enough for me) I felt I had gone backwards. Everything seemed a lot more busy. Base was of short duration because of the tail wind and the crabbing I did not find very natural. Took a few attempts to start to get the hang of it but on the last landing it all came together and I got her centrally down on the numbers. I am just hoping the weather can be a little kinder and let me get a couple of straight weekends in a row in. Hopefully I will feel some personal progress has been made. It is very frustrating like everybody here has said but I guess that is the nature of flying in the British climate.

[effortless]

You say that you are 45 miles away from Shoreham. The must be somwhere close. I love Shoreham but I would rather increase my flying opportunities. Also what has been said about winter flying is true. I don't get up a huge amount but most of it is in bright cold conditions. This is really much more comfortable if you are flying a spam can as well.

[High Wing Drifter]

It doesn't get much better with an aircraft share. I seem to be just going from one re-currency checkout to the next over the last few months.

[foxmoth]

I would go along with booking 2 separate hour lessons and allow yourself a reasonable interval between so you can relax - maybe one in the morning and another after lunch, it is worth trying 3 lessons in the day, I did my PPL on a flying scholarship and 3 trips a day were the norm, but try it and see how you go - I did do 4 hours one day and that was definitely too much. As far as the wx getting worse, I think you will find the best weather in August and early September (It is always bad for Wimbledon and why do you think Glastonbury is known for its mud!) and it may be worth looking at taking a bit of holiday at that time and getting some intensive flying in then.:ok:

[sternone]

Auch, after reading these posts i maybe switch from 1x 2 hours to 2x 1 hour!! i guess my flying instructor won't like that!!!

[Dysonsphere]

I was as well doing 1 lesson a week for about a year, half of them got cancelled due to for circuits it needs to be near perfect.

If a lesson is cancelled use it wisely and revise for your airlaw and other 5 exams. Alternative stick with it and as your self employeed be generious on your time, maybe when a good week of weather is in sight try to book as much flying as possible, do it after work ect??


Thats odd my instructer used the poor weather days for circuits as it was good practice and the vis was too crap to go outside the circuit.

[foxmoth]

Auch, after reading these posts i maybe switch from 1x 2 hours to 2x 1 hour!! i guess my flying instructor won't like that!!!

If you have a decent instructor he should have no problem with this - 2 hours straight is not only difficult for the student to cope with, but most instructors will start to lose the edge after an hour without a break unless it is a fairly relaxed exercise such as a long x-country.:uhoh:

[sternone]

If you have a decent instructor he should have no problem with this

He's a great guy, but he does it for the money ...

[flyboy_33]

Adam,
When I first started I had to work a month before I had enough for 1x 1 hour lesson. but every weekend I was down at the flight school just talking to other pilots. Back seating for the joy of being inside the aircraft if I was allowed (I was only fifteen when I started) and washing aircraft whenever I could. Reward was one circuit per aircraft washed. fleet of three aircraft.

What I am trying to get at is that hang in there yes it will take some time but it is worth every cancellation I have had due to wx or instructors being F*(*its :ugh: And I recommend along with most other replies that 2 x 1 hour lessons in a day is betrter then 1x 2 hour lesson. That break for a drink/lunch and bathroom is ver much needed. I love stalling but 2 hours of stalling would throw most poeples stomachs. Cheers and good luck with your training

[Whirlybird]

Thats odd my instructer used the poor weather days for circuits as it was good practice and the vis was too crap to go outside the circuit.

No, it's not odd. You can do circuits when the VISIBILITY isn't good enough for upper air work and navigation. But if the wind is too strong or in the wrong direction, that's not good, at least in the beginning. No, the weather doesn't have to be perfect for circuits, but it can sometimes feel like it to the student, if you've hit a patch of windy, gusty days with heavy showers. :(

He's a great guy, but he does it for the money

We all do it for the money, up to a point; all instructors have to eat. But the student's needs should come first. If an instructor prefers two-hour slots because he makes more money that way, not because it's best for the student, then he shouldn't be doing that job. And if you do have an instructor like that, I don't care how great a guy he is - get a new instructor. You can always go out for a drink with the "great guy", but don't fly with him. I wasted a lot of money in the early days flying with a really great guy, until I finally learned enough to decide to change instructors.

[sternone]

I don't care how great a guy he is - get a new instructor.

Tell me, how should a student pilot with low hours judge an instructor ? When does he know he has to change or he can get a better one ?

[modelman]

I changed mine after 7 hours.Deciding factor was that we were doing the same exercises every time,FI was doing all the flying and I wasn't learning anything.I don't think I am particularly thick so I tried another school.
What a revelation-great groundschool,very hands on (for me)etc.
PPL gained very quickly.:)

MM

[maxdrypower]

Its once again all the same problems that just about everyone else has been through and by hook or by crook overcome . At the end of the day you are paying handsomely to be taught to fly , not to pay someones wage , watch them fly an aircraft or put up with someone whose personality is not condusive to learning. This is not always to anyones detriment its just the way people are , some people do not get on . I had a flight with an instrucor once who told me everytime I asked a question , that I was to speak when I was spoken to it was called cockpit discipline , I immediately asked for a new instructor was told there wasnt one so ravenair became 3000 quid richer and I had a ball with instructors I got on with who constantly took the piss , not for everyone but thats my kinda teacher. I subsequently found out that just about everyone at the airfield thought this guy was a cxxk . You cant choose your relatives, but you can choose your friends and your instructors. Learning to fly should not only be challenging but it should be fun and every hour no matter how hard should be enjoyed to the full , if the instructor is hindering this then get another ,
Thats my input anyway and my honest opinion

[Whirlybird]

Tell me, how should a student pilot with low hours judge an instructor ? When does he know he has to change or he can get a better one ?

It's difficult. What's been suggested already is good - try an hour with someone else, and see how you get on. But here are a few pointers...

1) Do you get briefings before new exercises? Recently I talked to someone who'd done quite a lot of the course, and almost never had a single briefing. You should be getting some, even if not before every lesson.

2) Does your instructor appear to care more about whether the flying conditions are right for you, than whether he's making any money. If he/she wants to fly no matter what the conditions, be careful. It may be good practice for you to learn to fly in marginal conditions, but it may not.

3) Is he/she avaialble when you want to ask questions. The person I talked of in Point 1 said he asked a couple of simple questions...and the instructor turned round and charged him £50 for ground school!!!!! If you want a ground school course, fine, but charging for a couple of questions, NO!!!!!

4) Do you get on with him/her, and do you appear to be making progress? Students often tend to blame themselves if they're not making progress, but another instructor may be better for you, even if there's nothing wrong per se with the one you've got. Worth trying someone else to see.

5) If you're worried about what your instructor will think if you fly with someone else, tell them the truth, that you just want to get another point of view. And if they get upset about it....well, I'd be wary of someone like that. It's YOUR money and YOUR flying and YOUR choice.

Hope that helps a little.

[sternone]

Thanks for all your great replies... i guess i'm not doing to bad with my instructor, what do you think seeing answering these questions:

1) Do you get briefings before new exercises? Recently I talked to someone who'd done quite a lot of the course, and almost never had a single briefing. You should be getting some, even if not before every lesson.

No! at that annoys me alot!! Next lesson i will ask him to brief me what we are going to do, i also found that he was talking about some other student, like: we did last time this and that while that was not true at all. I had a few times he said to me: i didn't learnd you like that! but it was the first time i heard/saw that move

2) Does your instructor appear to care more about whether the flying conditions are right for you, than whether he's making any money. If he/she wants to fly no matter what the conditions, be careful. It may be good practice for you to learn to fly in marginal conditions, but it may not.

I must admid he flies with me when other people cancel their reservations, but i don't mind. i trust him to put me safely down and it gives me some trust in myself also landing with 15kts crosswinds, so i do not mind that part...


3) Is he/she avaialble when you want to ask questions. The person I talked of in Point 1 said he asked a couple of simple questions...and the instructor turned round and charged him £50 for ground school!!!!! If you want a ground school course, fine, but charging for a couple of questions, NO!!!!!

Yes, i can ask him questions, most of the time we end up having a drink in the bar (if he does not has another student directly after) and i can ask whatever i wan't


4) Do you get on with him/her, and do you appear to be making progress? Students often tend to blame themselves if they're not making progress, but another instructor may be better for you, even if there's nothing wrong per se with the one you've got. Worth trying someone else to see.

one time i did not flew for a few weeks and he told me that i will be having forgetting everything and start again from zero, he did alot alot of exercises but believe it or not, flying went very very well and he said afterward: i told you you would had to start again from zero hahah, i did not comment on that because i think he was a little pissed of the non-flying weeks..


5) If you're worried about what your instructor will think if you fly with someone else, tell them the truth, that you just want to get another point of view. And if they get upset about it....well, I'd be wary of someone like that. It's YOUR money and YOUR flying and YOUR choice.


I already told him about another club, what he tought about them, and he started laughing that they will just do everything to get the most money out of my pockets, at that moment i knew he was taking advantidge of me hahaha

at the end i think i could learn to fly faster with a more honest instructor, but mine i find is not to bad.. once the engine is running and his minutes start counting he's not a bad guy, but he's doing very fast pre-flight inspection just to get the minutes running ASAP.. that's a shame

[foxmoth]

On those answers I think you should be trying someone else, yes there are good points, but no briefings and 2 hour lessons :mad:, also, flying in poor wx is OK on the odd occasion but it certainly should not be the norm, sounds to me like he is the one doing everything to take the money from your pocket.:eek:

[maxdrypower]

Yeh find someone better , many reasons but you've identified the main points already , In the main , to pass a FI course you have to give detailed briefings on exercises , I fail to see how you can effectively carry out an exercise that hasnt been briefed. If you are landing in 15 kt crosswinds you are probably not in compliance with your schools flying order book , you maybe but it would be worth checking . 15kts (if it is all Xwind) is the limit for most light aircraft with ppls at the helm not to mention students . Good experience but it could also be detrimental if you get it wrong. A lot of instructors are fiercely territorial about their schools , as are a lot of students . However most have never worked or studied elsewhere , you must go where you feel comfortable and happy , as I said above and seconded by Whirly its your flying , choice and money . I personally for many reasons have been at four flying schools some good some not so good but I found one to suit me . And thats what you should do , even if it means looking a bit further afield . Its actually quite incredible when you sit soemtimes in a clubhouse or read on a forum people saying they hated their flying training and were glad to finish it to get rid of their instructor , mmmmmmm go with your instincts , if your not happy change . Even in the raf when they are paying you if your not happy with your instructor they will swap .
Bite the bullet and change

[Whirlybird]

sternone,
I agree with everyone else - change your instructor (and maybe your school) now!

I had an early instructor who sounds much like yours. He was always mixing me up with other people. Now, as an instructor myself, I know how difficult it can be to remember the stage everyone is at, if you have a lot of students. But in that case you take lots of student notes, get in early, and read them. Treating everyone as an individual and knowing what stage they're at is crucial!!!

You should get briefings. Missing them occasionally if things are running later can happen. But if you're really not getting them most of the time then you're being shortchanged, and you're not learning what you really need to know. There's far, far more to flying than just manipulating the controls.

You should not be landing in 15kt crosswinds unless you're at the stage of learning crosswind landings, and 15kts is a lot. I don't care whether you mind or not; you shouldn't be doing it.

Running down other flying schools is unprofessional unless they're really dangerous or something similar.

As Gemma said, you should be doing your own pre-flight inspections; this is an extremely important part of flying training.

I don't normally criticise my fellow instructors; it's a hard job and none of us are perfect. But if what you're saying is true, this chap is not good for you...or for anyone. Get someone else. Your early training is the most important part of your flying. Habits made now will stay with you forever. Things missed out could be dangerous later on. And you don't know what and how much you don't know, and what's being missed out.

I had a crap instructor early on - an hourbuilder who couldn't wait to get an airline job, and who thought because his pay was poor then he could do the job badly too. I stayed with him because I was loathe to change; you kind of get locked into being with one person, and think it'll be OK, and you don't mind, and all that kind of thing. It had repercussions that affected me for years, and probably still do. I wish I'd walked out on him the first time the very slightest doubt occurred - but I didn't know then what I know now, I had no-one to turn to for advice...and I didn't have PPRuNe. You do! You owe it to yourself.

[motherbird]

Any point in half hour lessons?

I was also advised that October \ November was best time for flying in UK

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Any point in half hour lessons?
There's no point in booking any half hour lessons - you'll spend fifteen minutes taxiing and fifteen minutes trying to get back to where you were last lesson, and ... er that's it.

But you certainly learn something from the lessons that end up being abandoned unexpectedly after half an hour, whether from weather or the aeroplane breaking. (Or simply the student changing their mind and realising that they really should have gone to the loo before the lesson - it's not happened to me, but it must have happened to somebody!)

[DBisDogOne]

Maxdry & Whirly are spot on, if you aren't completely happy with your FI, request another,if they won't play, -as an Irish mate of mine put it- take both your ass and your money elsewhere. I had a crappy instructor at first in the US, had no desire, ability or enthusiasm to teach, preferred to talk about crap such as his gun collection as if I a) Cared & b) Was interested. I understand the desire to hour-build for an airline driver job, but not at my expense (time & money) but to do it badly with obvious dis-interest is not on, he could at least make the effort and pretended to care. As the late great comedian Bill Hicks would have said "Let me plaster on the fake smile and plough though this **** once more time".

As we all know from experience, some people are natural teachers, some, however clever and gifted, just aren't, I've seen all types at school, college, university etc. I too prefer one who has a sense of humour, hopefully as odd as mine, in my case I got the right one and we proceeded to take the piss and verbally abuse each other at every opportunity (being an engineer by trade, this is natural to me), I learnt far more, far better, far quicker and feel I'm a better & safer pilot for it! What's more, I still remember it.

On the subject of lesson length, I wouldn't go much over an hour unless it's X/C, you'll start to get tired and start going backwards, wasting your time and money. Remember when you learned to drive, how tiring was an hour's lesson, now an hour's drive is nothing, a natural, normal thing, it's what you get used to. At the training stage, it's better to fly a little and often I found, although easier said than done with our WX!!!!

[Shunter]

When I was a student I got so hacked off with the weather I used to book 2 lessons per day (Sat and Sun); 1 at 9am, the other at say 1pm. This meant I got to fly once a week around 75% of the time, twice a week around 50% of the time, and four times a week around 25% of the time. From start to finish took me just over 3 months.

[sternone]

I agree with everyone else - change your instructor (and maybe your school) now!

You people's responses scares me off!! I have booked a meeting in the flying club he commented on, (i can do my IR also there) and if i choose to stay with him i will demand to:

* give me a pre-briefing what we are going to do
* tells me what i should learn for the next lessons
* do the complete preflight inspections myself at my pace and COMPLETE
* and book 1 hour trainings instead of 2 (when you people say 1 hour, is that 1 hour actual flight or 1 hour slot including getting plane out of hangar, fueling, taxing and vice versa ?)

Thanks!!

[maxdrypower]

And that Gemma is how it should be , sounds like you got a good un . Stern she is right , If your asking these questions then your answering your ultimate question yourself

[Whirlybird]

sternone,

You can't 'demand' that this so-called instructor give you a briefing. Either he's doing it, or he's cutting corners. How are you going to know whether the 3-minute briefing he then gives you is what a good instructor - like Gemma's - would have given you or not?

A one hour lesson is always one hour's flying...though schools do vary as to exactly when they start timing. There should be extra time for briefing and the beginning and debriefing at the end. Some schools book one hour lesson in every two hours. Others book one hour in every hour and a half, and then it's a real headache for the instructor to get briefings done, but it's not impossible. That's what I meant when I said in an earlier post that they occasionally get skipped or skimped....and it's not always the instructor's fault. But if that's happening all the time, either the instructor or the school is taking you for a ride, and you need to go elsewhere.

[BackPacker]

At the club where I fly, you book the (freelance) instructors in two-hour blocks, regardless of whether you do groundschool, flying, briefings or whatever, and you book the aircraft, yourself, separately. It's up to you (with a little help from the instructor) to make the most of those two hours. If you make sure the plane is preflighted, fueled up and ready to go, with a flight plan submitted on the top of the hour, you can squeeze in an hour and a half of flight time into that two hour block easily. If you need the instructor to hold your hand while checking the plane and submitting the flightplan, you're going to fly less than an hour total.

It's quite common for instructors to have two two-hours blocks booked in the morning, half an hour lunch break, and then another two two-hour blocks in the afternoon. If you are further along in your training and need a three-hour block or a full day (for a X-C for instance) then that's negotiable anyway under the same conditions. Same if you only need a one-hour block for half-an-hour checkout on a new plane.

Strange as this may sound, but I think it's a fair system. The instructor gets paid for his time, regardless of whether he's flying, briefing or doing ground school. And this way you know there is time for a proper briefing - after all, you paid for it.

And obviously instructors all around the globe will generally set their prices so that at the end of a days flying+briefing, they take home a decent paycheck. If they only get paid for the flying hours and the briefings hours are for free, well, then the flying hours are going to be more expensive.

[sternone]

and it's not always the instructor's fault. But if that's happening all the time, either the instructor or the school is taking you for a ride, and you need to go elsewhere.
I don't blame the club, because i only pay the plane on an hourly rate, when the engine starts, kinda very very cheap if you ask me, the C152 wet is 1,5euro / minute (1 pond sterling or 2 USD) The problem is that alot of machines are booked ofcorse, weekend flying needs 3 to 5 weeks advance booking, but i can fly during week days no problem
Anyways friday afternoon i go listen to the other club, let me see what i get there, do you have any specific questions i should ask or things i should look out for ? The other club has brand new piper warriors with glass cockpits (they also instruct the IR in it) i ofcorse expect a big difference in price but i don't care that much about that part

[sternone]

It won't work out cheaply for you if you are forever covering the same exercises or not progressing.

Damn, i always hate it when people are to greedy!!! Let's see what friday gives.. thanks for all the input!

[maxdrypower]

Sternone , with the fear of starting a whole new thread here , be cautious again , lol sorry , I currently fly a glass cockpit cessna . Amazing bit of kit beyond belief really what they get a simple light single to do . However though good they are they are exactly that , glass , not steam driven . Yes it will cost you more , probably considerably more , they are also four seaters again adding to the cost .IMHO it is better to get a ppl with steam driven aircraft then convert over. It has to be taken into account that when you get to the technical exam you will be examined on steam driven gyro pressure etc etc instruments , the glass cockpit does not have these . it works in a completely different black box type of way . You for example during cruise checks do not align the DI and compass because its done automatically by the systems .That is just one example . If you were to train solely on the g1000 you would have to fork out at a later date to train on and use analogue aircraft as they do work in completely different ways . Dont get me wrong the information represented is the same it is not what you will be examined on in the exams ,. Sorry if that seems a little finickity but it might be something you want to consider. Train on a nice terrahawk or 152 then move up when qualified

[sternone]

Oh boy, i just came back from a visit to the flight school, i think i have mixed up 2 things in the past.

You have:

* a flight club
* a flight school

I now know that these are 2 completely different things, the club i'm in now is just a club, not a school! I have had a very good chat with the person of that school, she explained me EVERYTHING in 2 hours and all the issues we talked about here in the forum they had them covered!! I was able to pick a folder (choose myself) were all the students files were sitting, were i was able to see that after each flight they make a full report and give debriefing and prebriefing!! It is unbelievalble how well they were organized, how can i ever go back to my current flight club ? I just can't wait to fly with this flight school!!

They have distance learning with email, voice and private support, i can fly from very early 7 o clock, and they switch teachers all the time, they have such a good reporting system per student that each teacher can jump in and continue your lessons! ( i found that a good idea, what do you think about that ?) so it could be you end up with more than 20 teachers while you learn.

Prices are about 30% higher than my old club, BUT she told me that 2 hours lessons are only 1 hour flight, and i only need to pay the time the engine runs, the rest is all briefings, briefings and briefings. She also said i will need to prepare the next lesson at home each time!! Amazingly!!

Luckely my current PPL hours count for the 150 hours i need before i can start my IR training after i get my PPL!

I was reallly surprised by the professionalism, but maybe it's becasue they also train commercial pilots there ? She said they make no difference in system, instructors or accurrucy between PPL's and CPL's students.

I still have around 30 landings/takeoffs left on my current club, but she told me that is no problem, she told me they would be happy to parctice touch and goes on the old club!! haha, after all, im still a member there and i have already payed for it. I hope they will allow me doing circuits with another clubs bird and teacher...

I wanna thank you guys here for letting me know that i wasn't having the perfect teacher after all.. to bad for him but i will be happy to sack him on monday! But hey, he remains a great guy.. but not a teacher for me... I wanna learn this the best way...

[maxdrypower]

There ya go matey , you have fun and enjoy .

[Whirlybird]

Best of luck, but get this straight....

There are not (a) flying clubs, and (b) flying schools)

but

(a) GOOD flying clubs and schools, and
(b) BAD flying clubs and schools.

This new one is the way all of them should be.

Hve fun. :ok:

[foxmoth]

In general it is best not to be swapping instructors all the time, but with a good records system and standardisation as you seem to have here it is not a problem, enjoy the rest of your training, glad to see you seem to have sorted it.:ok:

[Adam_]

I've taken the advice of some of you and booked 2 lessons next weekend - one Saturday and one Sunday. Hopefully I'll get at least one hour of flying in if the weather is kind to me.

I actually managed to go up today despite the weather. Landing was interesting though... we (ok the instructor :p) ended up doing a go-around due to the wind. I think I'm going to need a lot of training before I can think about trying to land in those conditions.

[maxdrypower]

Doesnt half take me back this , I never ever thought I could land an aircraft after my first few lessons , but it is such a great feeling when you can do it . it all comes with experience guys and gal , just remember that a go around is as important a part of your flying decision making as landing is . better to go around and have another go than to get it wrong and be unable to . No one will criticise you for a GA
Good luck you guys and keep up the enjoyment

[Adam_]

Having 2 lessons back to back was probably the best decision I've made so far. I feel like I've made an enormous amount of progress this weekend, going from complete incompetence to actually having a vague idea how to fly the aircraft!

Today we handled 'proper' climbs and descents, taxying (aside from going the wrong way and fumbling with the brakes I didn't make too much of a hash of this) and I even made a very nervous-sounding radio call although I'm convinced the subsequent silent pause from the controller was him trying to work out whether it was a genuine call or some prankster having a laugh :p.

Thanks for the advice guys. The slightly 'OT' posts in this thread have been most informative too :).

Now for some light reading... in the form of the Air Law manual :sad: