777 cabin crew report nose bleed ?

[willfly380]

some crew are reporting of feeling unwell and even fainting while working the 777, also of nose bleed. i started a thread in the cabin crew forum and i think that its got some truth in it. i am just converting ,so any experienced pilots care to comment . thanks

[hobie]

ps. try a Google using boeing 777 fainting ..... there are a few links there ....

[Slats One]

In case anyone has forgotten, BA cabin crew reported feeling unwelll on 777s when they were newish. (2000+) BA said - nothing wrong. The union collated the incidents. It took over 200 hundred letters from BA 777 pax to the Daily Torygraph and constant articles in that paper by a certain journalist named Cole to get a reaction. BA said nothing wrong and that Cole was wrong.

9 months later BA admitted to airflow and pressurisation software issues and made changes on triple sevens. And yes there was a record of crew illness and pax illness. Mostly nose bleeds, dizzines, cardiac -minor symptoms and minor neuro obs.

The Torygraph put a Dr on a BA 777 flight to Miami (?) and found that his (monitored) blood oxygen level dropped in the cruise to below 75 per cent- below norms and not good for old folks thats for sure - (and yes there was an excess of old folks in the pax reports.)

Having had a go at the journo ( a specialist air transport type and not a panic in the skies merchant) BA basically admitted to knowing about the issues and to be working with Boeing on a fix. Since then nothing- now this - weird - one wonders if the newer variants have the original problem or something has changed?

I seem to recall that the newspaper articles and claims revolved around the "Ayling Airways" virtual BA 777 fleet out of LGW that had an extra row of seats across the cabin and aisles so narrow there were special food trolleys desinged for tehm- Florida and Cancun services? Clearly with so many extra seast and bodies on board (50+) the cabin air ration was altered...

See, like all things in the air- nuthin is new.

[cwatters]

From 2003...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CWU/is_2003_Nov_28/ai_110665827

KLM to monitor passenger health after a number of fainting incidents
Airline Industry Information, Nov 28, 2003
AIRLINE INDUSTRY INFORMATION-(C)1997-2003 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTD

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines is planning to monitor passengers travelling on its aircraft because about seven passengers have fainted on Boeing 777 aircraft during the past two weeks.

According to a KLM spokesperson, about seven passengers have fainted on flights to Toronto, Canada and Cape Town, South Africa served by Boeing 777-200ER aircraft. The carrier is now seeking to identify if any passengers on its other aircraft are also showing signs of being unwell.

KLM will register any incidents of people being sick, having headaches or showing signs of fainting over the next couple of weeks.

[whattimedoweland]

I did four sectors across the pond on a 5 day back 2 back on a B747-400 with no problems.Two weeks later same type of 5 day trip on the 777.......four nose bleeds.

I never feel too bad when I get off the 747 or 767 but the 777!!.

There again BA tell us there is nothing wrong with them so it must be true!!:O.

WTDWL.

I await with helmet fitted replies from our flight crew to protect their baby!!.

[Airgus]

If I am not wrong, I think Airbus has a kind of humidifier system for the cabin, which adds a bit of moisture to the air, making it less dry. And I guess Boeing does not have one.

I used to fly as a cabin crew for both fleet, the B777 and the A340, both ULH flights and it was easy to notice the difference, the B777 was dryer.
Leaving my nose too dry/sensible that few times I started nose-bleeding after the flight.

AirGus.-

[magicmorris]

I fly on 777, nearly every day as the majority of aircraft we have are 777 and I dont find any problems with it, and havent heard of any other crew complaining.

[driftdown]

I remember flying on the 777 just after their introduction on the BAH - LHR - BAH route and waking up in the middle of the night (BAH - LHR) feeling a bit short of breath and with an increased cardiac rate. An overall feeling of not being comfortable.

It only ever seemed to happen when the a/c was above FL380. Doesn't seem to happen now, maybe there has been a fix or I am just a bit fitter (lost a bit of weight and took up more exercise).

:ok:

[Jetstream Rider]

The BBC website has an article on nosebleeds here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/262462.stm

The causes here include dryness, altitude and allergies amongst others.

I would say that on the 777 I feel very dry after a long flight and drinking a lot doesn't seem to help. Altitude is unlikely to be a factor as this is usually at very high altitudes when climbing for instance. Allergies could be a factor, I have no idea what the filtration system is on the 777, but if it was conducive to mould growth then there is an outside chance, but I doubt it.

Certainly the 777 is a dry aircraft from a pax point of view and I would suggest this is the main reason.

[apaddyinuk]

I am rated on the 777, 747 and 767 and I must admit that there is a HUGE difference to my overall health following a flight on the 777! My airline recently introduced services from the UK to SYD on the 777 and many of the crew are reporting feeling far more exhausted after the 9 day trip then they did when it was operated on the 747s.

The aircraft air is very noticeably dry in comparison to the 747 and 767. It seems to be that Boeing were perhaps skimping on humidifiers when designing the plane.

[cwatters]

Is there a possible catch 22 here..

If the percentage of air recirculated is too high then oxygen levels might get too low, CO2 levels too high and that might increase the risk of fainting.

If on the other hand too much fresh air is introduced and not enough is recirculated then the humidity falls and that might increase the risk of nose bleeds.

..just my opinion. I'm not a pro pilot.

[makintw]

So now I know it's not just my hooter that has this problem.

Pax with SQ on their 777s, no nose bleeds to date, but uncomforable :uhoh: and find that the only way to stay comfortable after 12 hours is breathing through a damp cloth

[M.Mouse]

It seems to be that Boeing were perhaps skimping on humidifiers when designing the plane.

The only humidifiers I have ever known Being fit were on the flight deck and cabin crew rest areas on the 747-400. They caused there own set of problems e.g. on long flights they cause a massive ice build up on the inside of the aircraft skin which melts in descent and drips all over the back of the overhead panel and the pilots! In BA this caused a false double engine fire warning on at least one occasion.

Do any airlines have cabin humidifiers fitted?

I have flown the B747-400 and currently fly the B777. I agree the B777 seems drier but wonder whether it is because it can climb higher earlier and therefore spends longer at higher altitude than other aircraft.

To BA's credit I do know that they have spent a great deal of money and time researching the reported problems and have made several modifications to airflow patterns to try and improve the situation.

[ray cosmic]

I regularly use these over-the-counter sprays to keep my nose moisturized. Helps a great deal! You can make 'em yourself as well:
Over-the-counter (OTC) nose sprays can become addictive or cause "rebound" nasal congestion. To eliminate these problems, make your own saline nasal spray by mixing eight ounces of warm (boiled first) water with one-half teaspoon of salt. Pour into an empty OTC nasal spray bottle (you may have to remove the nozzle with pliers) and shake. This spray is good for relieving a stuffy nose caused by colds or allergies and for moistening dry nasal passages. It is also much cheaper than medicated OTC sprays.Problem solved.

[Lemper]

To prevent nose bleeds on long flights in dry air, I line my nostrils with a thin layer of vaseline using cotton buds; works fine! For the rest of the dehydration problem, before going on the flight, I smear my whole body with a mixture (90/10) of nivea cream and baby oil. During the flight, I keep myself covered as much as possible (long sleeves), and keep the temperature around 22-23, as warmer temp will help evaporation through breeding. Breathing through wet towels every now and then during the flight helps too. Of course, one full glass of plain still water every half hour is indispensable. No coffee, no tea, no soda pops, as they increase dehydration. I feel less tired during and after the flight.

[arcniz]

For sensitive persons, the combination of: a) Dry air at altitude, combined with b) limited nasal mucus production (for whatever reason), c) combined with ANY sort of inhaled irritant can lead to a somewhat exaggerated immune reaction in the nasal passages, resulting in brief but dramatic nosebleeds.
A bit of napkin or tissue stuffed under the upper lip so as to put some pressure on the surfaces there seems to stop the bleeding fairly quickly and reliably... at least it does for me.

As a child (with a standard thin-skinned blue-blood Anglo-Saxon MK 2 nose) in a high, dry mountain place, a month or so in Spring always seemed to bring many of these.. but seldom did they occur otherwise. Eventually I became acquainted with others so afflicted, with a similar pattern.

Higher humidity in the air system might be helpful on the 777. For the short term, a bit of salty mist in the nose does a lot. Avoid antihistamines, decongestants, and other meds that are vasoconstrictors when flying, if possible.. these tend to dry out the membranes and predispose one to low-humidity sensitivity.

[ASRAAM]

I have flown the 777 for 8 years now and actually operated one of the 'air quality' trials done about 6 years ago.

The techies conducting the trials were close lipped but I did manage to notice that the relative humidity in the flight deck was 4%, the cabin was a bit better as they get less fresh air.

I dont suffer from nose bleeds but do get very dry eyes. I do my best to lubricate with drops, although one has to be careful as many types of drops carry a warning about blurred vision. ( An improvement to my flying some would say!).

The other reason the 777 generates problems is its relatively rapid climb. On a 747-400 long range sector the first few hours will usually be spent at an FL in the low 30s, giving pax/crew time to acclimatise a bit before the cabin alt gets all the way up to 8000'.

The 777 often goes straight to the high 30s or even FL430, pushing the cabin alt to 8000' immediately.

[wanabee777]

I never had a nose bleed until I started doing 12hr+ legs on the triple 7.

Frequent use of a saline nasal spray has prevented a recurrence.


Regarding inflight fainting spells.

Often times dehydration can cause blood pressure to drop to the point that a person can pass out usually after sitting for long periods and then quickly standing.:bored:

The importance of staying hydrated for both passengers and crew cannot be stressed enough. Typically, the thirst sensation is minimal even with the extremely low humidity levels. A conscious effort, therefore, is required to maintain proper body hydration during prolonged flights.

[False Capture]

I agree with M.Mouse and ASRAAM. I think any discomfort is due to the performance of the aircraft as opposed to the air-conditioning system.

We did an 8 hour flight recently and we went straight up to FL390 for the entire cruise, furthermore, we could have climbed even higher than that towards the end of the flight ie. FL410.

The B777 achieves a higher initial cruise altitude than the B747 which results in prolonged exposure to a high cabin altitude. Whenever, I've been above FL400 the cabin crew have generally noticed it before we've said anything to them. This usually occurs towards the end of the flight when they're busy with the final meal service. The complaint is usually shortness of breath.

I don't suffer from nose-bleeds, dryness or shortness of breath. However, I'm concerned about the more hidden effects such as increased exposure to radiation when flying above FL380.

[soggyboxers]

I always suffer nosebleeds for some days after flying as a passenger in the 777. I've also noticed that my eyes get drier than normal and have to use eyedrops (which is a pain with airport rules about liquids in hand baggage). The only other time I've had a nose bleed after flying is after longhaul flights (e.g. Singapore - Amsterdam) in the 747. But with the 777 it's after every flight

[timmcat]

I'm sure there was a discussion some time ago regarding nausea in particular for pax and crew based at the rear of the plane. If I recall correctly, it was deduced that in the cruise the rear section of the aircraft had a tendency to oscillate slightly in a figure of eight motion.

(caveat, apologies for any technical inaccuracies - non-aviation professional here).

[IB4138]

Wasn't it put down to a software glitch at the time, which caused aircraft to yaw?

[Frangible]

Easy way of measuring the humidity is to bring on board a hygrometer and see for yourself. Some aircon shops or music shops (excessive dryness damages pianos) sell them. Should be about £10-20. The device is non-powered. Seems pretty amazing that this can be such an issue for so long with no data available.

Could cabin pressure also be involved?

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

IIRC when the Tristar entered RAF service in the 80s, there was an issue with cabin aie being too dry. Initially the aircraft had had humidifiers fitted; however, the original owners BA found these unnecessary and removed them to save weight. 300 pax provided enough humidity simply by breathing.
However, when the same aircraft was flying 10 hour sectors with only 3 or 4 onboard (I don't know how many crew the RAF used on them) the air was a lot drier.
The only relevance of my post is this: yes, some airliners have in the past had cabin humidifiers, but as to whether Boeing ever fitted them I have no idea.

[Jetstream Rider]

From my experience

Hydration: nasal spray called "Sterimar" which is a salt water spray (no drugs) is very good for general hydration and unblocking of nasal passages.

Colds: Sterimar is one of only three things I have found to help reduce the time a cold blocks you up. The other two being Olbas Oil (which causes irritation if used too much, so be careful) and a Steroid given to me by an AME once. Not recommended for general use and his prescription was controversial.

Eye drops: You can get a brand of lubricating eye drops called "Blink" which are designed for contact lens wearers. The great power of these is that they come in single dose containers, about 30 to a pack. They are easy to carry airside and do not have the disadvantage of having to be chucked away after a set time due to bacterial build up. I tend to carry one or two doses (5ml ish) in my pocket for night flights and early mornings! They also help if you have allergies - sometimes when I rub my eyes (I know I shouldn't) they get irritated - Blink helps clear the irritation, although this is not what they are for. I don't use them often, but they are refreshing and helpful especially on long flights.

[B777Heavy]

I have been on the B772 for like 2 years and I aint never heard of anyone nose bleeding ......

Anyone know what the seating config on BA & KLM is?ie how many pax do they carry on the 777?

[TheGorrilla]

Makes me sneeze more than usual. Never had a nose bleed though. I think some sort of vertical climb in a fighter might do that, not a B777!

Cosmic radiation has been measured for years and never done anyone much harm. Given the lifestyle of most jet pilots I reckon the subsequent thrashing in the bar is more harmful to the body than any high altitude cosmic stuff. Droopy nose drivers were tested for years and dispite heavy exposure to the stuff they suffered no ill effects (not sure how it effected their offspring though!).

Generally I find the sneezing stops if I drink plenty of water in the cruise. I've found the quantitiy of water I need to keep sufficiently hydrated on the 777 is greater than previous types.

[bnt]

I did a little reading on this at the Boeing website, where they have a Cabin Air Systems (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cabinair/index.html) page. Their Cabin Air Environment PDF document there has a lot of detail about the issues and how they try to tackle them.
During flight, the relative humidity in the cabin ranges from approximately 5 percent to 35 percent, with an average of 15 percent to 20 percent. This is similar to the dry summer climate of the southwestern United States or typical wintertime indoor levels. A low humidity environment has been shown to inhibit fungal and bacterial growth.One of their claims for the 787 is that the composite construction will allow higher relative humidity in the cabin, because it is stronger and less susceptible to corrosion. We'll see. :hmm:

By way of contrast, a relative humidity in the low 20s was the cause of complaints in the office I work in, also in winter: I had dry eye problems (with contacts or specs), some folks developed eczema and other skin problems. The 4% figure on the flight deck, quoted earlier in this thread, is one I've seen elsewhere too, which I don't think I'd like. Quoting that Boeing document again:
However, exposure to such an environment without sufficient fluid intake will dehydrate the body through perspiration and respiratory water loss. Dehydration can lead to headaches, tiredness and fatigue. In addition, low humidity can cause drying of the nose, throat and eyes, and it can irritate contact lens wearers.

[Bill.Martin]

IIRC, back in the early days of jet travel, one of distinctions between the British VC10 series and the American B707/DC8s was that the VC10 was claimed to be more pax. friendly, partly because it had humidifiers fitted.

Anecdotal evidence is that in recent times the remaining VC10s -- operated now solely under the banner of Crab Air -- have a well known "issue", particularly in some seats, of condensation dripping on your on head:bored: That suggests they still have the humidifiers fitted, but the higher moisture levels do have a downside.

As to the nosebleeds, I've checked my experiences and although there does seem to be some correlation between nosebleeds and 772 sectors in comparison to other types (774/340), I couldn't claim it to be statistically significant.

[777w]

I fly one of the largest 777 fleets in the world (get it) and i have NEVER heard of any such thing on my airline!!! its specific only to BA i guess cuz we do really really long flights on the 777's!!!!! :ok:

[wanabee777]

Our longest stage length is BOM-JFK. 16+ hrs not uncommon and in a few cases 17+ hrs. 777ER (formerly 777IGW)

Nose bleeds have been reported to me by both my F/A's and co-pilots.

Usually does not manifest itself inflight.

[777AV8R]

I've been on the aircraft since early '98, over 6000 hrs on it, have not had any reports from cabin crew or otherwise in these regards.
As for radiation hazards, I completed a study on the issue. You can drop me a note by email if you wish. In a nutshell, flying polar routes or otherwise poses no problems. All the information is from formal studies.
Safe flight..

[misd-agin]

I get nose bleeds on the 757/767 so it must be a Boeing issue! Only get it during the winter so it's related to snow and Boeings.

Well, maybe the dry air, dry house heat to dry airplane to dry hotel room, has a bit to do with it.

And Airbus' don't suffer from the same dry air/high cabin altitude because they can't fly high enough so the cabin altitude is lower vis a vis Boeing products.

[skiingman]

Interesting info about the humidity.

When I first moved to the southwest, I found myself getting dry skin, nosebleeds, etc. from the dry air. I notice no such effects anymore..102 with 3% RH today.