"speed 300 kts or greater"

[Bbow]

Just a quick question, when London ask you to maintain speed "300 or greater", what do you want us to say to the next guy on handover?

Do you want us to say our current speed or "we're 300 kts or greater"?

[MancBoy]

callsign, cleared level, minimum speed 300kts.

clear and concise to me

[Pera]

Say nothing. It's the controller's job to co-ordinate clearances and restrictions between each other (unless your AIP specifies different).

[DTY/LKS]

Pera

If a controller had to co-ordinate every clearance & restriction with the next sector then they would only shift a small percentage of the traffic they already do.

By instructing the pilot to "Report his heading, cleared level, speed" etc then that takes the ATCO to ATCO co-ordination process out the loop.

Mancboy's answer is correct. You could even say, "assigned 300 knots or greater currently doing 310 knots"

The chances are that your speed will be changed by the next controller anyway as you descend into the TMA.

[1985]

Say nothing. It's the controller's job to co-ordinate clearances and restrictions between each other (unless your AIP specifies different)


If its on a standing agreement the it is acceptable and perfectly good practice to instruct the aircraft to report any level, heading and speed instruction/restrictions that they are currently on.

I would expect "XXX123 descending/climbing ... speed 300kts min" or variations there of.

And as an aside if you have been given a speed restriction please tell me, it is important.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

No matter what the books say is required or not required, good airmanship dictates that if you are subject to an ATC restriction you should advise the next controller on first contact. It is also in your interests to advise of a restriction, especially one that has slowed you down, cos the next controller is more likely to cancel it if he knows you are subject to it. Pera is from Oz and so they probably have the time to coordinate all speeds, but in busier places around the world we just don't have time :E

[BlueSkye]

The new ATC systems (Eurocat, AutoTrac etc.) allow typed messages on the radar label. A restriction would be typed on the label and the receiving ATC would see this. But then off course pilots don't know what system is being used, so best is idea is to just state the restriction on first contact.

[Pera]

By instructing the pilot to "Report his heading, cleared level, speed" etc then that takes the ATCO to ATCO co-ordination process out the loop.
If you are told to report information to the next controller you should do so, otherwise follow your AIP or other local instructions. ATCO to ATCO co-ordination is their responsibility. If they don't have time to do it, then the system requires changing. This can be achieved in many ways but is not what to OP asked.

I don't know what the London requirements are but it shouldn't be hard to find out. A pilot shouldn't have to be guessing these things.

[5milesbaby]

As has been stated on this thread, in London ATCO to ATCO co-ordination is done with regard with speed/headings by instructing the pilot to report such to the next controller on handover. There is not enough time to co-ordinate EVERY heading and speed from controller to controller by telephone, unless we regulate the traffic to allow such and then not even half the traffic we move would ever get airbourne. Every London controller will tx a/c subject to such a restriction with the correct phraseology, but I know that rarely this will get missed during busy periods, then I'd expect the receiving controller to ascertain any restrictions as it is normally obvious when a restriction should have been applied or has been applied.

To the original post, if given "300kts or greater" then say that on check-in as it's the restriction you were given, if you can also say what you are currently doing then it'll help. However the latter isn't necessary in the London TMA as they have mode S so can see such, however the all singing all dancing area centre doesn't have that capability and I doubt many pilots will know which centre they are talking to.

[Bbow]

Many thanks for the replies!

Can anyone tell me if all the London and Scottish controller have mode S? Or where I would find that information?

[Defruiter]

As far as I know, only LTCC (London TMA) have Mode S

[eyeinthesky]

Mode S-capable radars now cover the majority of the UK. So far, only LTCC has the software which converts that information to something useful on their radar display.
LACC would LOVE to have that too, but it is not programmed to be implemented for years yet (2012?). I did hear a rumour however that LTCC have demonstrated safety benefits from having Mode S, so it might be being moved up the investment plan.

Edited to say: If you were thinking of 'cheating' on a speed restriction because LACC don't have the readout, be aware that we can ring LTCC if you are within their radar coverage and ask them to interrogate the Mode S selected IAS!;)

[Defruiter]

I think there were a few today at TC that thought they could cheat it :}:p

[5milesbaby]

I have on several occasions phoned up to check a speed and "politely" informed the offending pilot of their error - no room for cheating anymore :E

[fireflybob]

As a simple (!) pilot, I find "Speed 300 kts minimum" more difficult to remember than "Speed 300 kts or greater"! (Am not quite sure why this is!).

I read back "Speed 300 kts minimum" the other day and as soon as I had released the PTT couldnt remember whether it was maximum or minimum! I decide to fly at 300 kts!

[pdcta]

"When assigned a speed to mantain, the flight crew shall include this speed in their position report. The assigned speed shall also be advised on first contact with an ATC unit after a frequency change, wheather or not a full position report is required" DOC4444

So... if you are "Mach 0.80 or greater", at every frequency change just say "Mach 0.80 or greater".
Anyway I suggest you to report at the new sector/unit any restriction given by the previous one, also radar heading, rate of climb/descend or cross point at level.
As long as possible all those restrictions are coordinated between us (specially between different ATC unit) but your report is always a good reminder for the controller. Finally... in case we miss the coordination (could happen) your report will inform the new controller about your "un-normal" flight conditions!

[ImnotanERIC]

speed restrictions are just as important as heading and level restrictions. very often there are 2 or 3 in trail descending into the london TMA, all coming down to a standing agreement level, without speed instructions being maintained a catch up situation could occur very easily

[30W]

5miles

I doubt many pilots will know which centre they are talking to.

Sadly so I'm afraid, don't think I fly with anyone who knows if they are in either a LACC or TC sector. Then again, do they need to? - probably not.... just call who your told to and do as your told - works just fine that way

I have on several occasions phoned up to check a speed and "politely" informed the offending pilot of their error - no room for cheating anymore

Need your flow rate increasing then - obviously far too much spare time on your hands ;)

30W

[TheKabaka]

As a pilot I have a question regarding the mode s readout. Does it give the controller a readout of the SELECTED speed on the FCU (autopilot), or the ACTUAL IAS?

I ask because it is quite possible for these to be different. For example in my aircraft the AP will meet a vertical speed selection at the expense of speed (ie if -2000fpm is selected and 180Kts is selected then the 'bus will decend at 2000fpm, the only way to achieve this is by pitching down and the speed increacing, despite 180Kts being selcted).

There are other reasons- manual thrust for example although flying a speed other than that selected would be bad practice.

[Defruiter]

Actual IAS

[tennis]

Speed is just as important as heading and level requirements because if you get the speed right you can avoid heading and level restrictions. I totally disagree with PERA about not saying anything. I never coordinate to the next agency about speeds because we get too busy but what i say to the pilot is "CONTACT.....ON.....REPORT SPEED ON FIRST CONTACT" If I was a pilot I would always tell every controller what my speed was when decending into an airfield you know the sky is littered with like minded pilots wanting to get on the ground. Good airmanship at the console or in the cockpit is invaluable but obviously too much info can be a problem. Different acft speeds is what causes most conflictions so it makes sense to call it. If we all flew the same type at the same speed everytime we all know what the outcome would be.

Most readouts controllers get on screen is the ground speed which is calculated mathematically by the system from the raw radar feed. So ground speed and IAS can be substantially different and there is nothing worse than asking a pilot with a whopping ground speed, closing in on another guy, to reduce to 280/290kts and he is doing 270kts. Constant speeds for the pilot are appreciated and save fuel which is high on any airline agenda and if I had my way, speed would be a mandatory piece of info in an arrival call prior to decent.