Fixed wing v rotor

[motherbird]

What are advantages v disadvantages of a career flying helicopters over flying fixed wing planes? My daughter is taking flying lessons in Warriors and Arrows at our local flying club and is hoping to get her PPL when she is 17. However she has had a few flights in helicopters (with the CCF) and is finding it hard to decide which route would be better as a career option and if to go down the military or civil route.

Is there a big difference in pay between types?
Which is more fun to fly?
Are there many women helicopter pilots?
If helicopters are the better option is she wasting money by learning to fly light aircraft?

[Ema_CTA]

Dear motherbird,

I'm a 20 years hold Italian Trainee Helicopter Pilot, in my opinion, the differences between helicopters and aircraft is only a personal choose as like as our passion prefer.
I have choose helicopters because in my opinion is more funny and anyway is another type of flight, but if your daughter decide to fly aircrafts is upon her discrection and passion.
The prices is anyway a second scenario, the decision to be a Professional Pilot in an investment in a future. The differences between the two prices is not much relevant.
About woman helicopter pilot: don't worry she will be in good company :}
If she decide to fly helicopter or to be a commercial pilot on helicopter, i suggest to start since now to fly helicopters, the differences between the two machines is very big.

In any case the only requirements to fly is the passion.

Hope to be clear :O

Sorry for my bad written english.

Emanuele

[motherbird]

Thank you Ema CTA.
I suspect that she will choose helicopters as the more challenging option.

PS. Your English is far better than my Italian:cool:

[BlueRobin]

Motherbird, a chum from ATPL theory is going down the commercial heli route, so what I am about to say is totally third-hand. You might try asking on the Rotorheads or helitorque.com forum instead.

Essentially the flying costs are twice as much compared to fixed wing, I hope you have deep pockets! Getting turbine time is tricky too, typically a prerequisite to getting a job, I have heard rates of around 600 per hour... you may get lucky in getting someone to pay this for you. Also top-end pay can be below the airlines and the job market is more finite.

Would your daughter suited for military life?

Luckily a lady by the name of Krasner may pop along soon and give an expert, qualified opinion ;)

[Whirlybird]

I rarely read this forum, but I saw the thread title and had to have a look.

I have a helicopter CPL and FI rating; I also have a PPL(A). At the moment I work as a helicopter instructor. I'm also female.

To answer your questions, I'll start with the simplest ones first.

Women make up a very small percentage of commercial pilots of any type - 2-3% - and I think the percentage is about the same for rotary and fixed wing. However, since there are less helicopter pilots altogether, there are less women flying rotary aircraft. But does it matter? You won't get any prejudice, or little, once you reach commercial levels. Most of what you do get comes from the general public. And as for being rare, and the only woman in the flying school, CPL class, etc etc...you get used to it.

Everyone, but everyone, thinks helicopters are more fun to fly if they like hands-on flying. They're flexible, versatile, can land almost anywhere...there's nothing not to like.

There is no real point in learning to fly light aircraft first, as the two are very different. If you want to fly helicopters, learn to fly helicopters. Flying both is a lot of fun, but if I hadn't got my PPL(A) first I probably wouldn't have bothered - as it is I do the minimum number of hours to hang on to it.

When it comes to careers, this is more complicated. There is no rotary equivalent of the airlines, and few secure jobs in the rotary world. Basically, you need to get a CPL(H), and then something else, in order to be employable. Many people get an instructors rating, but while helicopter instructors are far better paid than their fixed swing counterparts, it's quite hard to make a living as an instructor unless you have something to fall back on in winter and bad weather. If you want to go for turbine flying, the North Sea Oil Companies are how most people start, but they are now expecting peope to pay for their own IR, which is expensive. Of course, if your daughter joins the military, everything gets paid for, if she thinks the life would suit her. But there are few helicopter jobs with pay equivalent to top airline jobs.

There are a lot of issues here, but if you want more detail on all of this, go to Rotorheads and do a search, as the subject has been covered ad infinitum on there.

[motherbird]

Thanks Whirlybird and BlueRobin
Unfortunately I don't have deep pockets so it looks like the military route is the most logical option (unless I win the lottery). She is a member of the CCF and had done some work experience with Middle Wallop's Army Air Corp so has some idea of what the army has to offer.

[Flingingwings]

MB,
good advice so far from Whirls.
This has been discussed plenty before but to save a little of your search time.
Rotary less jobs but less people going for them. Competition still high. Albeit your daughter will have age on her side.
I went the modular route. PPL(H), ATPL theory exams, CPL(H), hours building, FI rating, IR. PPL is about 12K, 45-47K by the time you've a cpl, 70-75K by teh time your an FI and add about another 35-40K for the IR and initial twin turbine rating:eek::eek:
Fixed wing flying is cheaper, about 50K for the whole lot (so i'm lead to believe). Choice is horses for courses, but helis are more fun and trickier to handle.
Perhaps a starting point might be a helicopetr trial lesson? Your daughter may dislike actually flying one, in which case you answer your own question.
Military is an option although as you'd expect competition for those places is high.
Competition is high for any pilot jobs, the rewards are good for those that achieve the 'top end' jobs but more who qualify never get those jobs than those who do.
Rotary wise a new CPL is basically worthless employment wise.
With an FI rating salary is likely to be anything from 12-24K pa.
With an IR and a salaried position or as an experienced and well known freelancer earnings are anything from 35-90K.
Hope that helps,
FW
(One of the lucky ones)

[Ema_CTA]

I think that in her situation I must try to fly an helicopter to choose which way I will want to do.
As reported by Flingingwings the expense to be a Professional Pilot is very high (little bit more in Europe, very less in USA and Australia), but I will say again, the choose to be a Professional Pilot is an investment in the future, regarding the salary and concerning the World Helicopter Pilot Demand I think that the USA and the Northern Europe are the best place to start flying commercialy.
Regarding the turbine Helicopter the price is very high (I'm training in Italy on the R22, paying 390 € per hour,i don't want to know i will pay for the AS350 or higher, but Italian price is very high), but it's necessary to open some way to the real job.
Regarding women, as written by Whirlybird (Madame do you live near Trent VOR in the UK? Near East Midland? ;)), the percentage is nothing refered the men, but if some new pretty woman join our world we are very happy!! :}
I think so that the military way, is the worst way to take for a girl so young, anyway I must declare that the military training it's better than the civil one, and the costs will be 0$.:sad:

Anyway rotor or fixed wings, I hope that your daughter join us in world skies soon.:ok:

Regards

Emanuele

[Whirlybird]

do you live near Trent VOR in the UK?

Yes. Do I know you?

if some new pretty woman join our world we are very happy

And suppose she's not pretty? :{ Or are you being charmingly Italian and assuming that ALL women are beautiful? ;)

I think so that the military way, is the worst way to take for a girl so young

I think it depends on the girl. When I was that age, and looking for excitement, I think I'd have loved it...but the military weren't taking women then (I'm old!). Some people love that way of life. If you do, it's a great way to get free flying training. But if you don't, it would probably be sheer hell.

[Hookerbot 5000]

And suppose she's not pretty?


Don't apply :E

[Whirlygig]

Is there a big difference in pay between types?
Apart from flying instructors, helicopter pilots are generally paid less than fixed wing. A pipeline inspection pilot would probably be on about £30k, a typical police pilot will be on about £40-50k, corporate pilots on a bit more. North Sea co-pilots start at about £35k and captains can be around £70k. Compared with the airlines, this is generally less.

One advantage with most UK helicopter operations, is that you will probably sleep in your own bed at night rather than hotels!

Bearing in mind that it costs 2-3 times more to get the appropriate (H) ratings than (A), these salaries are not great if you are trying to pay your rent/mortgage and pay off a loan which serviced the cost of the training. I say 2-3 times because, although the hourly rate to learn is about double (for a Robinson 22 that is; I learned on a Schweizer at £280.00 per hour), people generally take longer to get the licences as well. It is not uncommon for someone to take 60-70 hours to get a PPL(H), whereas fixed wing average is nearer 50.

A UK JAA instrument rating can cost around £30k in itself as there has to be an element of flying a twin engined helicopter at £1000 per hour. A single engined turbine would be £500-600 per hour. Much of this would have to be paid out of your own pocket.

After getting a CPL(H) with 200 hours behind you, you are still unemployable by the operators; their insurance requirements for a start will mandate that a pilot has at least x00 hundred hours (depending on the job; 500 for pipeline, 2000 hours for police/air ambo). Therefore, even after CPL, there is still more training; either Instructor Rating (a 30 hour course after you've reached 250 hours) or/and Instrument Rating plus turbine rating etc. However, there is work for people who have these ratings. You'd have to be prepared to move in all likelihood.

Which is more fun to fly?Helicopter without a doubt - that's why people do it for poor pay!
Are there many women helicopter pilots?Around 30-odd female commercial helicopter pilots in the UK. It really isn't an issue. I have not been treated any differently. Being short though is more of a problem!!!!!
If helicopters are the better option is she wasting money by learning to fly light aircraft?IF!!! I don't fly fixed wing; never saw the point as I wanted to fly rotary so, possibly yes. BUT, if your daughter would like to do either, and can afford it, then it's all experience.

Most helicopter pilots fall into one of two camps; those who trained in the military or those who have civilian training which they have come to as a second (or in my case, third) career having their original career to fall back on in lean times.

So, my advice to your daughter would be to either join the RAF/Navy/Army (although a flying job isn't guaranteed if you don't have the aptitude and what you fly isn't guaranteed either!) or, if going the civilian route, get another useful, portable qualification to fall back on.

Cheers

Whirls




PS - Flingingwings - how kind of you to compliment my advice in advance of it being given!!!

[Ema_CTA]

Quote:
do you live near Trent VOR in the UK?
Yes. Do I know you?
No, madame I live in Verona, but I know east midland zone.


Quote:
if some new pretty woman join our world we are very happy
And suppose she's not pretty? :{ Or are you being charmingly Italian and assuming that ALL women are beautiful? ;)
Charmingly Italian mode on: All women are pretty when fly an helicopter.:}:}

Quote:
I think so that the military way, is the worst way to take for a girl so young
I think it depends on the girl. When I was that age, and looking for excitement, I think I'd have loved it...but the military weren't taking women then (I'm old!). Some people love that way of life. If you do, it's a great way to get free flying training. But if you don't, it would probably be sheer hell.
I thake the same with cheese madame :}, I think that I haven't understand all.

Madame can you PM me some information about your heli school, I must build hours at a price less than 350 €/per hour.

Thanks madame,
Bye

Emanuele:ok:

[motherbird]

Thanks Whirlygig.

It seems that I have no choice but to keep on paying for my daughter's flying lessons. While at Compton Abbas aerobatic competition today (sadly cloud base too low so no flying) my daughter, pretty but tough or do I mean pretty tough? reminded me that last year I had given her the option of having a one hour flying lesson each term or 10 saxophone lessons. No prizes for guessing which she chose and it appears I owe her three hours.

[Ema_CTA]

You have made the best choose...:D

I hope she will funny fly an helicopter soon.:ok:

If you or she have some questions..we are here..to answer as we can.:rolleyes:


Bye,
Emanuele:}

[Whirlybird]

fixed wing average is nearer 50.


I believe the fixed wing PPL average is more like 60 hours

Emanuele,
Check your pms.

[Floater AAC]

As a member of the Army Air Corps I offer the advice to think hard about joining the military as a helicopter pilot in order to gain experience for a civilian job.
If the AAC is the chosen path then she has two choices:
1. Join as a soldier and work her way to pilot training (expect this to take a few years).
2. Join as on officer and only fly for a couple of years before flying a desk.

The RAF or Navy offer direct entry routes with the RAF offering alternate flying routes should you be unsucessful.
There are frequent tours in very risky environments that need commitment and teamwork to get through them.:eek:

If it is simply a route to getting flying hours I categorically DO NOT recommend it.:=

That said, the flying is fantastic at times and the variation is great. Low level formation flying using Night vision Goggles etc. It is a real challenge.

Personally I have had enough and am leaning towards an airline career now.
But that is just my opinion. I have enjoyed my rotary time in the forces but it won't be forever. :ok:

[motherbird]

Dear Floater AAC

If as you say in your profile that you live at Hogwarts have you ever flown broomsticks? Maybe that is another option to look into.:E

[babybird]

Dear all,

Thanks for the advice you have given my mum about flying and what I should do about it, it is good to hear different peoples advice and I will take it all on board . I still have a long way to go before I have to think about this stuff but your comments will help hopefully in making the right decision.

thanks

babybird

[Ema_CTA]

Oh madame,

Baby bird welcome on board....

We have offered our opinion, now to you the final decision.

I any case,

Good Landings

Emanuele:}

[scruggs]

Hi folks,



Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere. I have read through the sticky in Rotorheads but can’t quite find the answer I’m looking for.

When it comes to Rotary Wing (RW) vs. Fixed Wing (FW), one of the most common opinions/facts stated here on PPRuNe is that breaking into the professional RW world is infinitely more difficult than the commercial FW arena.

Most give the reason that there are far fewer RW jobs out there, and I’m not disputing that for a second. What I’m interested to know is the ratios (rough estimates welcome) of newly qualified pilot to the number of jobs out there in both the RW and FW arenas.

The point I’m trying to get at is this. Even though there are far more jobs in FW aviation, are there not far more trainee FW pilots competing for jobs? So in reality, the level of difficulty of breaking into either field isn’t too dissimilar after all – is that a wrong assumption?

I’m not however referring to the costs, as I understand RW is more expensive. My question is purely based on ratios of wannabes to jobs in both RW and FW.

Thanks all,
S. :ok:

[Ema_CTA]

:ok:Simple Answer:

- Less Helicopters - Less (Quality) Pilots :D
- More Aircraft - More Pilots :}

In any case the principle is simple, the demand is directly proportional to the number of machine flying.
The commercial Heli World is hard than the commercial FW Wolrd is too.
The differences between is only that one machine have RotorWings and the other have a FixedWings.

The rest to choose is passion and challenging work on.

Hope to be clear,

Emanuele (One of the lucky which become a RW pilot):ok:

[Whirlygig]

The supply and demand ratios are somewhat skewed though for rotary since hours and experience requirements are so much higher. There really isn't anything in the fixed wing world compared with SAR, Police, Air Ambulance. It IS highly skilled. The jobs ARE there but only if you have 2,000 hours, IR, night, etc.

Cheers

Whirls

[scruggs]

Thanks for the replies folks.

S.

[motherbird]

Anyone know what % of Police, Air Ambulance and Coastal Rescue helicopter pilots come from military background?

[bluepeely]

A very high one . Coastal rotary pilots are usually from a naval background and the Police and Flying Quacks are majority Ex-military because of, as mentioned before, the need for high hours. I looked into the choppers myself before opting for fixed wing before i started any kind of training. My mind was made up purely because of the chances of getting a job when trained. Still you've gotta live the dream :ok:

[Whirlygig]

Anyone know what % of Police, Air Ambulance and Coastal Rescue helicopter pilots come from military background?

At a guess, over 90%! Of the couple of dozen or so police and air ambo pilots that I know, all bar one are ex-military. However, there are two female police pilots! One in Surry and the other in Belfast.

Cheers

Whirls

[pilotmike]

Fixed wing - costs a fortune to get trained - great fun to fly - hard to find that first job - good pay.

Rotary - costs much more to train - lots more fun to fly - even harder to find that first job - poor pay.

Take your pick.

PM

[motherbird]

Pilotmike it sounds as though getting any sort of career flying -either FW or Roto - is going to be tough and expensive. I don't know why my kids want to go into jobs that seem so difficult to get into. (my son wants to go into medicine and the chances of even getting offered a space at Uni seems almost insurmountable:ugh:) but it seems the more obstacles they are faced with, the more determined they are to reach their goals.

[pilotmike]

I'm sorry if my rather glib, 'tongue in cheek' comments came across as negative.

The reality is that we fly because we love it. The bonus is that we can be paid to do so. But as with any job, it is a job, with all the downsides, so the joy of flying can get rather tarnished with time.

Becoming a pilot will always be expensive, but as with any other rewarding career or profession, it brings its own rewards along with its challenges. Your daughter should follow her dream, and she's very lucky to have a mother like you who is helping to support her.

As you rightly say, we all thrive on challenges. Professonal flying will deliver those challenges in spades - not least the worry of financing the training! The rewards should follow.

Best of luck to your daughter in her pursuit of her dream, whichever route she chooses to go. I had the same dilemma, and went both rotary and fixed wing. She will find her own path sooner or later, one that's right for her.

For both of your offspring - their determination and hard work will be rewarded if they truly believe in thier goals - go for it!

PM

[wobble2plank]

As the holder of both ATPL(H) and ATPL(A) I have to say that the two types of flying are poles apart. I flew helicopters all over the globe for the best part of 20 years and absolutely loved it. There is nothing that compares to the flexibility of a helicopter nor the 'hands on' seat of the pants flying.

Why, may you ask, did I leave the 'chopper' world when it was so much fun? To be basically honest I was getting a bit jaded towards the whole thing and needed a change. Why even mention this? Basically because everything becomes mundane after a long time. Therefore I have to say go with what you feel you would enjoy the most!

Flying airliners is great for the bank balance in comparison to choppers but in all honesty its monkey see monkey do and play with the autopilot buttons. Helicopter flying can be immensly challenging and enormous fun, coupled with the right job e.g. SAR/HEMS it can also be extremely rewarding.

I found it no problem at all to switch from flying heavy helicopters to flying airliners. To be honest it was a bit of a step down in the handling department. So, if you really can, try and get the helo job, CHC need people at the moment, and after you can always try the fixed wing route if your lifestyle changes or you need a change.

In all cases good luck and enjoy :ok:

W2P

[motherbird]

pilotmike thanks for the encouragement.:ok:

Guess the best advice is if she doesn't try both she may always wonder what if...:confused:

Will try to get her a trial lesson in helicopter, she may hate it, though judging from replies here it sounds very unlikely.

[motherbird]

Been looking on various threads but can't find anything relevant.

Anyone know about Orlando Flight Training for JAA PPL? It costs £3,693 for 21 days including accommodation , 45 hours Cessna 152,25 hours Dual Instruction,JAA written exams,JAA Skill test and Evening unlimited ground school. Is this a good deal?

[Whirlygig]

With all these deals, be prepared to factor in extra costs, not least the cost of not being able to complete the course in minimum hours.

I maintain that 3 weeks is pushing it to get a PPL, even for fixed wing(!!!) as this doesn't allow for serviceability and availability of the aircraft. Sure, weather shouldn't be too much of a problem but there are other factors.

Therefore, budget on the course taking longer than the required flying hours and longer in terms of accommodation.

Cheers

Whirls

[rotorknight]

After having flown helicopters for 13 years I am very happy to go fixed wing again.
The flying might look like fun but even that gets routine after a while.
At the moment the career prospects are good in the fixed wing world,which is much,much bigger than the helicopter market which in turn means you might actually earn your invested money back(even if it takes a while)
I flew helicopters for several offshore companies for all these years and that is where the good money and good rosters are,but the flying is 20 times more boring than any fixed wing job because the only thing you see is water and ugly steel constructions in the middle of the ocean:yuk:
I wish you luck in deciding which route to take:ok:

[Capt_SlackBladder]

I did my PPL(A) with them in November 2003. I did it in exactly 45 hours. I'd arranged 4 weeks over there to do it but got it done in 22 days including all 7 ground exams, medical and RT practical assessment. That also included 3 days of poor weather, a 1 day air space restriction because George W Bush was visiting his brother and 3 nights out in Orlando. My instructor only worked 6 days a week too. It can be done without too much difficulty but I'd recommend taking a couple of extra days just to make sure.

[motherbird]

Hi Captain_Slackbladder

A couple of quick questions.
What was the accommodation like? On the web page it says you could upgrade to a hotel.
Were there many other people from UK doing the same course or were they mainly from the US?
What age range were the students?

MB

[motherbird]

What should I look for when choosing a flying school to have a trial helicopter lesson?

Are some helicopters easier for beginners to fly than others?

When I took a parachuting course I was told to avoid jumping at one particular airfield in the South of England as their safety record was not good. I wonder if that applies when flying as well as falling.

[Whirlygig]

Are some helicopters easier for beginners to fly than others?
Yes but that is opening a whole new can of worms! In my humble opinion (!) I would say that the Schweizer300/Hughes269 (same thing) is easier to learn on than a Robinson R22.

However, the R22 is more common (because it's quite a bit cheaper).

I would use the opportunity of the trial lesson to check out a local school and make sure you ask the instructor as many questions as you can think of.

Near to Salisbury, there is Bournemouth Helicopters (Schweizers) and Fast Helicopters at Thruxton (R22s I think). Both are reputable.

Cheers

Whirls

[Capt_SlackBladder]

The accommodation was not bad. I was in an apartment with 2 others. We each had our own room and plenty of space. It's a bit friendlier and slightly cheaper than a hotel. There were lots of people from the UK when I was there. Ages varied from 18 to 40+ and everyone was pretty friendly. I had a good instructor who was actually from Norway and I heard mostly good things about the other instructors. I can't really fault the place for getting a PPL(A). There was optional ground school in the evenings. Some classes were more useful than others (navigation was, the rest were not) and I ended up not going to many. If you have to do the ground exams there too, like I did, get the PPL(A) Confuser. It's basically a big question bank and it helped me a lot.