R.A.F Navigator Badges

[Futurnav]

Hey all

i was searching ebay for a Navigator badge, and i have come across two in the past. It may sound sad but im hoping to buy one which was used for a tornado navigator. the badges in the links below are the two im either going to go for, but can any one tell me which badge is msot commonly used on Tornado Navigators flying suits or are they both used.

many thanks Futurnav

thanks

http://www.terrane.co.uk/ProdImg/NBBT4315_Large.jpg (javascript:popUp('imageFull.asp?ImageName=NBBT4315_Zoom.jpg ',470,570,'no'))http://www.rafweb.org/Uniform_etc/navigator.jpg

[332mistress]

I think Flt Lt Your Name Here was actually a Jaguar navigator:E

332M

[Chris Kebab]

Most younger navs I see these days seem to have a fancier WSO brevet with RAF in the middle. Not too up to speed with "nav stuff" but I think I can safety say you will not get an "N" brevet.

Have you looked at the e-bay thread - some of those are Tornado guys.

[Pontius Navigator]

Futurenav,

In the past we wore the brevet alone. It was then possible to get a US leather patch with pilots wings and gold blocking but not for rear crew. Also we could not afford anything too fancy.

From the 60s but increasingly in the 70s onward we wear the name patch. Originally these were as shown, a simple black/white. We could wear the same badge from sqn to sqn. From the late 80s it became common for each sqn to have its own style of name badge.

As a nav stude they had some dark blue and red edged concoction. Another sqn had a royal blue, another tartan, another red/green and so on.
It is quite likely that no Tornado sqns have the patch you show.

PS, I forgot to add, the plain brevet is worn with uniform.

[charliegolf]

I always preferred the plain brevet on my flying suit. Thought the patches were too big, but they were the norm I'd say.

CG

[Pontius Navigator]

And of course N brevet are obsolescent as are AEO and AEOp

[BluntM8]

Brevet before it's been awarded? - bad juju, don't do it!

But, as a point of interest, you won't get an 'N' brevet anymore, just a plain 'RAF' one. More's the pity!

Blunty

[Set Me Free]

I have seen most, if not all, recent WSO studes on multis sqns are invited to wear the N brevet rather than the RAF one they have been presented, this being kept for 1s and 5s.

This seems to apply to the ALMs too, after all, on a Tonka Sqn its obvious who is who, but with possibly 3 people on an a/c with RAF Brevet it makes sense.

[Wader2]

with possibly 3 people on an a/c with RAF Brevet it makes sense.

Swelp me, who would have thought of that.:}

[teeteringhead]

Pedantic Git mode ON

I have seen most, if not all, recent WSO studes on multis sqns are invited to wear the N brevet rather than the RAF one they have been presented, this being kept for 1s and 5s. ... hmmmmm

but apart from where specified in regulations, (ie Observers wearing Nav brevets and Navs etc etc etc wearing WSO/WSOp brevets), surely you cannot just wear a brevet you haven't been awarded, on the principle that you would have had one if you'd trained earlier??

Or can I put up King's or RFC wings?? Or Navs the "Flying O"?? Or AEOps a Sig brevet???

but with possibly 3 people on an a/c with RAF Brevet it makes sense. ... err and you need to look at the brevet to know who does what ????:ooh:

Pedantic Git mode OFF

[Wader2]

surely you cannot just wear a brevet you haven't been awarded, on the principle that you would have had one if you'd trained earlier??

Much the same reason why Observers would not wear Ns nor Ns wear WSOs or S wearing AEOs and presumably AEOps wearing WSOs.

... err and you need to look at the brevet to know who does what ????:ooh:

Here I disagree. In the crew I would agree but outside the crew a brevet helps define the person (whether it is worn or not).

PS, for an AEOp on the kipper fleet the inevitable question was wet or dry.

[Uncle Ginsters]

If you want an RAF Nav brevet, they are now sold in the RAF Museum at Cosford.

Surely, under QRs, you are authorised to wear the badge stated on your Brevet Certificate - and that, nowadays, is the WSO brevet.

End of story.

I'm sure the oldskool RAFG Nav mafia will have something to say about that though!

Uncle G

[Release-Authorised]

A Walt in the making!

Perhaps I should wear the Sun with Rays of Edward Earl of March because had I been in the forces in 1460 then there is a good chance that I would have been wearing his Livery. (He became Edward IV in 1461 by the way, but that is thread creep).

[teeteringhead]

Surely, under QRs, you are authorised to wear the badge stated on your Brevet Certificate - and that, nowadays, is the WSO brevet.

End of story. ... up to a point Uncle G

As I alluded to above, in the (very rare) circumstances where a brevet changes, those awarded the old one may choose to wear the new one - but never the other way round So only works for observers (RAF) to navigators, siggies to AEOps and King's Wings to Queen's - and of course all single wings now to WSO/WSOp.

You can also wear any wings/brevet you've been awarded, not just the latest ..... dunno why you'd want to ....

And more wings triv: RAF and Army wings may by regulation (if entitled) be worn on the "other" uniform, but never RN wings on any other uniform (apart from RM) or any other wings on RN uniform. Saw some army wings on an RAF uniform not too many years ago in fact ........

..... she wore them well! ;)

[WhiteOvies]

Will have to check QRRN but I have seen Army wings on an RN pilot, he earnt them in green then transferred dark blue. :confused:

[Fred Elliot]

Of course, proper pilots' wings are worn on the sleeve................;)
Also, I'm quite surprised that noone has so far pointed out that 'navigator' is actually an anagram of 'vagina rot'. Thought you ought to know.
:}

[buoy15]

Gingsters
"Brevet Certificate" - quess ker say?
My Brevet was slapped on my chest in 72 using bits of velcro, but I never got a certificate - only a Flyg Clothing logbook!
Teeters - not quite true!
I know of, and worked for, a sycophant Kipper Nav who did a Flt Lt tour on a RN Carrier and wore (and probably still does) the FAA wings on the cuff of his No1's and No 5's long after he had re-joined the Nimrod fleet
When challenged, he provided a very convincing and arrogant answer which even convinced 4 Stn Cdrs at home and abroad
Determined to impress, his years as a Sqn Ldr were only surpassed by the number of secondary duties he volunteered for, and now, sadly, he has been promoted to Wg Cdr

[Pontius Navigator]

My kipper fleet skipper wore two brevets.

His pilot's brevet above the left lapel and his Engineer's brevet

















behind the left lapel :)

[airborne_artist]

I've seen an RN officer wear wings gained in the Army.

He was ex Para RMP (TA) and he correctly wore his para wings on his No. 5s. He and I joined BRNC on the same day in the same Flight, but he was chopped at Roborough. The only other person at Dartmouth (at the time) to wear para wings was the Captain of the College, who was ex NGS FOO.

[Roadster280]

Teeters -

ISTR a certain Master team leader at HQ 1Gp MAOTs, (initials JM), who wore a QM brevet. On his 1950s Thunderbirds jacket, with a bazillion medal ribbons and his rank on his sleeve. This would have been early 90s.

We never knew what his rank actually was, MACR, MALM or what. Just sir!

[teeteringhead]

ISTR a certain Master team leader at HQ 1Gp MAOTs, (initials JM), I think I know the man in question - was he a Kentish Man who played hockey??

I'm afraid I'd forgotten the QM becoming LM saga. When the first QMs arrived as crewmen - to augment the Engs, Navs, AEOps and Siggies - they were known as "The Quartermaster Experiment" ... and you have to be of a certain age to appreciate the pun.

Back to the placing of wings; I'm not denying what people have done, just what's legal - and RN wings on the sleeve of an RAF uniform are definitely not! My machine won't let me open .pdf files at the moment so I can't quote the regs.

It certainly is illegal for WSO/WSOps to wear "previous" brevets that they weren't awarded - see my highlighting below. Relevant QR I can quote (cos it's not in .pdf!) - it's QR(RAF) 206.

206. Flying Badges - Wearing of. Sponsor:P1(Cer)(RAF)

(1) Flying badges are divided into two categories, those in current issue, for which aircrew are qualified under the terms of paras J727 and 728 and those no longer issued, for which members of the RAF qualified under regulations in force from time to time. These badges are:

(a) Current issued:

Pilot
Weapons Systems Officer (WSO)
Weapons Systems Operator (WSOp)
Fighter Controller (FC)
Airborne Technician (AT)
The Preliminary Flying Badge (Pilot), UAS personnel only. See para 728.

(b) Previously in issue:

Navigator(N)
Air Electronics Officer(AE)
Air Electronics Operator(AE)
Air Engineer(E)
Air Signaller(S)
Air Loadmaster(LM)
Air Observer (O)
Air Bomber (B)
Wireless Operator (air) (S)
Wireless Operator Mechanic (air) (S)
Meteorological Air Observer (M)
Observer (radio) (RO)
Air Gunner (AG)
The Preliminary Flying Badge (Pilot)
The Preliminary Flying Badge (Navigator)
The Preliminary Flying Badge (Signaller)
The Preliminary Flying Badge (Engineer)
The Preliminary Flying Badge (Gunner)

The preliminary flying badges listed in clause (1)(b) above, were previously awarded to personnel of the RAFVR and WRAFVR entered for flying duties who successfully completed the basic stage of training and passed the prescribed tests and examinations.

(2) A flying badge, being a qualification badge, is not to be regarded as either a decoration or the equivalent of a regimental badge. Service personnel are not to wear any of the badges listed in clause (1) unless authority for them to do so has been granted in accordance with the regulations prescribed from time to time by the Defence Council.

(3) Personnel who qualified for the award of the flying badge or Observers Badge under regulations in force in the RAF prior to the 3rd September 1939, or under regulations in force from time to time in the Royal Flying Corps or Royal Naval Air Service, may wear the RAF pilot badge or air observer badge, provided that the qualification appears in the official records of officers and airmen held by the MOD. Any cases of doubt should be referred to HQ PTC.

(4) An officer, on ceasing to be employed on flying duties and an airman on being remustered to a ground trade, may elect to wear any of the badges for which he has been previously qualified.

(5) A foreign flying badge is not to be worn with RAF uniform. This regulation does not preclude RAF personnel from accepting the presentation of a foreign flying badge.

(6) Entitled and authorized flying badges are to be worn in accordance with RAF Dress Regulations.


Interstingly the QM brevet is not there - I assume this is in error as many older brevets are included (perhaps I should write to P1 (Ceremonial)!)- as an aside I was at the Dining-In when the last Met Observer (M brevet) in the RAF was dined-out on retirement; he was an air trafficker by then but still wore his M brevet!

[Wader2]

(4) An officer, on ceasing to be employed on flying duties and an airman on being remustered to a ground trade, may elect to wear any of the badges for which he has been previously qualified.

I remember a cpl steward at RAF Siloth who wore his pilots wings and medals on his mess jacket and was resplendent with a handlebar moustache.

(5) A foreign flying badge is not to be worn with RAF uniform. This regulation does not preclude RAF personnel from accepting the presentation of a foreign flying badge.

The converse is true too. The RNZAF pilots used to go to happy hour in Ohakea in black T-shirts and KD shorts and RAF wings.:) They were then correctly attired for a 10-second squirt or quick-draw games with the ketchup dispensers.

[Uncle Ginsters]

"Brevet Certificate" - quess ker say?
My Brevet was slapped on my chest in 72 using bits of velcro, but I never got a certificate - only a Flyg Clothing logbook!

Buoy15 - that may have been the case way back when (i wasn't born in 1972), but nowadays, all brevets are slapped on the chest by some available senior type, accompanied by a certificate (the wording escapes me and i'm away from home at the moment) which effectively says Flt Lt_______ is hereby awarded the WSO/Pilots' Wings and may wear the brevet iaw QRxxx. Signed Some other senior type

As i understand it, anyone can sew on a piece of velcro, but it is that certificate which enables you to wear the wings. Although the signature in the back of a logbook may count - but, as in the case of Linton vs. Valley, the point at which wings may be worn can change.

Is this all just getting too pedantic for some wannabe Walt? Having just read the original post, the answer should be "If you're eligible, you would know - if you're not, you're a Walt (or just a little sad)"

P.S. Yes, i am bored with too much time on my hands.

Uncle G :ok:

[buoy15]

Ginsters
Have to agree
Futurenav obviously doesn't know, or isn't sure of, where he's going
Should be ok on VC10's then!

[interpreter]

You're all too modern. What about the old WopAg. Now that was a badge and bags of duty to accompany it!