10000'

[d192049d]

Finally manged to achieve a physcological ambission of getting a 152 to 10,000' at the weekend. Once I got there started to worry about hypoxia as I was on my own so came strait back down again. Mind you had I been two up, probably wouldnt have got there.
Aboslutley majestic view from up there in a high wing, anybody else managed to coax one up that high? Certainly thought this is what flying is all about..the view, the freedom [cas considered].
Got me thinking about what else I can achieve? What challenges can I go for next that wont cost the earth?
Must keep the flame alive...

[Human Factor]

Finally manged to achieve a physcological ambission of getting a 152 to 10,000' at the weekend.

Yep, it usually takes that long.:E

[d192049d]

Very good!!:D:D Like it...

[Blinkz]

I've flown a PA28 at 10,000 quite abit. It was in Phoenix and at that height was the only place were it was cool enough to enjoy the flight :ok:

oh and have had a glider up to 13,000ft too :E

[contrail]

Ive had a 152 up to 12000 ft 2up before.....
Sat there full chuff with indicated of 60kts.... :E

[maxdrypower]

Must say went fL100 t'other week with Mr Horgy . passing 9000 I started to get a banging headache and had difficulty focusing properly on instruments .My breathing was also affected . Lcukily the much younger man was flying and was unaffected , bt it certainly gave me what I think is vaulabe information , I now know my no oxy limits . I will be going no higher than 85 when Im PIC . Intersting experience

[Mark 1]

Not a 152, but have had an 85hp Cessna 120 upto 11000' across the Alps. It took most of the way from Chambery to the Rocciamelone pass to get there.
Have also done the same in a Jodel 1050 and (much, much easier) an RV-4.

The ANO allows you upto FL100 without supp. oxygen and about half an hour upto FL120 IIRC.

[maxdrypower]

stuff the ANO my body wasnt allowing me much over 95 so I think Ill be sticking with that

[justinmg]

Developing severe symptoms like inability to focus without having spent some time at altitude (you suggest whilst still climbing- ie.almost instantly) suggests suboptimal physiology. Either heavy smoking / other lung disease / anaemia, or an aircraft issue like an exhaust leak. If you are youngish and fighting fit, get the aircraft checked.

[maxdrypower]

:}:}:} yeh Im aware of that matey we had been at 85 for a while and it cos worse as we climbed up , I am far far from fighting fit and knocking on in years , got the same thing skiing in america . I got a class one easily enough though so Im not panicking just yet , give it another six months maybe though :)

[VFE]

So how long did it take to get the C152 to 10'000ft? Often wondered what it'd be like up that high in a tiny aeroplane - my gut feeling is that it'd be slightly freaky?

Been to 8000ft in C172 but never had the need to go higher than that and to be honest, would probably get bored in the process!

VFE.

[Pitts2112]

Got an A65-powered Taylorcraft up to 10,000 ft (11,200 when I switched to 1013), just to see the number on the altimeter. Took me about 20 minutes to get back down for fear of shock-cooling the engine. It was mighty cold up there, if I remember correctly.

Had the Pitts up that high over Norfolk one time, too. Amazing cloud formations on that day, which was what got me to climb that high on that day.
I have to admit I felt a bit uncomfortable being that far away from the ground, as daft as that sounds.

Well done!

Pitts2112

[davidatter708]

Where abouts did you do it and how long did it take you
david

[gpn01]

I've climbed to 12,000' in East Anglia a couple of times. Slightly more challenging as I did it both times in a glider in cloud. Climb rate was measured at 1,000' per minute and it took about ten minutes once in the cloud.

Climbed to 27,500' in a glider in the States along a wave bar over Minden (Nevada). Was still getting a climb rate of around 200' per minute but didn't go any higher due to my oxygen consumption and it's a bit chilly up there!

[IO540]

You should not get hypoxia at 10k, unless you have serious health issues, smoke, etc. If you do you should go to a doctor for a good check up because you are heading for big trouble.

Most people can spend hours a 10k with just tiredness and occassionally a headache.

Airliner cockpits are pressurised to about 8k, and there you are breathing pretty lousy air as well.

I agree flying high up is nice - on a clear day you get great views. I've done 18k. One needs an o2 kit for above about 11k; I can't remember the current CAA (G-reg) rules.

[BEagle]

Years ago, I struggled up to 13800ft in a Chipmunk over Berkshire.....with an horrific hangover from the session in the White Waltham Officers Mess the previous evening!

Young and very stupid - but that was the UAS culture of the time and didn't seem to do many people any lasting harm!

Trying to get down again without knackering the engine was quite tricky, I settled for a series of 2G descending turns and felt even worse.

[d192049d]

Where did I do it....Just to the south west of Shrewsbury below Class A N862

[maxdrypower]

IO Im sorry there old chap but I have to disagree . Unless for some reason you think Im fibbing like a fibbing thing . I was suffering from , or rather should I say I was displaying symptoms of hypoxia from 85 upwards . This is not odd , strange or abnormal , and there is nothing wrong with me .I am fully fit and have ony recently done a class one , this coupled with the mediclas I have to have every 6 months for work confirms this . Any text you read with regard to hypoxia will tell you that a reduction in partial pressure of oxygen can be very sensitive to the body and a cabin pressure equivalent to 8000 ft produces a detectable impairment inmental performance . This increases with altitude , although most people can compensate up to 10-12 this is not the case for everybody . I am not a smoker not do I have any medical problems . But thanks for the scare mongering , However if you are an AME I will bow down to your greater intimate knowledge of my body and tell the boys at gatwick that you disagree with them

[stickandrudderman]

Ah, but can you do the fish dance?

[scooter boy]

While doing my FAA ASEL in '94 my qualifying cross country flights from VNY to SBO involved reaching approx 10000' over the Sierra Nevada in a C152. I was young and much fitter then and didn't notice any altitude effects.Lots of leaning required but it is quite possible. When I returned to the UK I couldn't believe everybody was flying around at 2000ft and leaning seemed to be something a PPL shouldn't be encouraged to take an interest in. I know that controlled airspace is the cause of a lot of celing restrictions in the South and central UK but not everywhere. Nowadays I rountinely fly up to FL200 in my M20 (I prefer to be at FL100-120 where I do not need O2), but crossing frontal weather or Alps can sometimes demand otherwise and I use a portable oximeter intermittently while I have O2 on. I agree with maxdrypower that even fit youngish people can see O2 sats drop significantly at or slightly below 10000ft. If I start to lose the ability to do simple cockpit maths then the O2 goes on. My head starts to throb when the oximeter is the the low 80s (usually FL130 and above) but I routinely put the O2 on above FL120. As soon as I have taken a couple of deep breaths then the sats are back up to 99%.Anybody out there using cannulae instead of masks?SB

[maxdrypower]

SARM , I prefer the Clont Heim Klemmer dance , which can be found on any good compilation album of norwegian carpenters songs .
I stick to 2000 feet or therabouts cos Im scared of heights and prefer it down there Leaning is another subject and I agree with scooter boy , it is amazing how many pilots and indeed flying schools do not lean aircraft . And how many subscribe to the belief that you dont lean below certain altitudes . I believe that this is one of the reasons flying training costs so much on the UK . I forget the figures but im sure it says somehwere in the oparting manulas of most aircraft that lenaing should be done when operating at 75% power or more , give or ake dont jump on me thats from memory which may be wrong , I do know that altitude has nothing to do with it per se. How many people on here were taught to lean when learnig to fly ? I know I wasnt . I now fly a g1000 equipped 172 which is a group owned aircraft . The low price we pay for its use is based on the fuel useage as 8GPH , and we lean asap after levelling off to attain this . The Garmin is excellent for this as it has a lean assist mde that can tell you to .1 of a gallon how much you are using so you can lean very accurately . I cant say Ive ever looked properly at the fuel use at 2300rpm rfully rich but its in the region of about 11-12GPH . This is a significant fuel saving when leaned to 8GPH . Imagine how much flying schools would save if they leaned transiiting to and from their airfields and only used fully rich for manouevering etc etc this saving could then be passed down t the student , but hey hum . I have actually heard a pilot ask once why Mixture rich was in his airfield approach checks when he never touches it . Slightly off thread I l know but just adding to scooter boys bit

[Runaway Gun]

Go and get yourselves on an Aviation Medicine course, in the Baro chamber. You will learn alot about your own personal limitations indications.

Most won't notice the effects of hypoxia - because one of the effects is "Feeling Great". And this is whilst sitting in the chamber and actually expecting it.

Let alone bimbling along at 90kts trying to do your TAS calculations and watching your VSI, fumbling with the piddle pack because it is soooo cold. You'll never see hypoxia coming with such a high workload.

[Vee One...Rotate]

Went up to 10k a couple of weeks ago in a PA28 - didn't take long at all. Was still achieving about 400 fpm at the level off. That was in the south-west US where it was 40 deg C on the ground - it was a refreshing 5 deg C up at 10k. IAS was a bit on the low side mind :bored:

Just wanted to tick the box :ok:

V1R

[average bloke]

Got to 10k in a 152 a few years back doing my night rating. Flew from Southend to overhead Norwich and back. Was a very clear night and you could see the Belgian coast quite clearly.

Took ages to get up there mind you.

[neilmac]

About 6 weeks ago did FL180 in a PA28, The last 4000ft took forever! total sortie time till back on ground 2 hours 10 mins! Both GA pilots but we have a military experience as engineer/atc and did it professional in my view. Briefed on hypoxia (portable oxygen sets, watched each other for any tell tail signs), icing, airspace, emergencies. In the end the fpm was virtuallly nil, we selected flap at one stage to get a little lift!


NM

[englishal]

Once you have done 10k once, it really is no big deal, even in a C152. In California, where MEA's are often 11k or higher, you have to go at 11k or 12k, and everyone does it without 02. I spent about 3 hours at 12500, and as a (then) smoker didn't really notice any side effects.

Go and rent a T206T in the USA (because it is cheap) and do FL270 for a laugh (with 02) just once....

[IO540]

I don't doubt somebody gets ill at 8000ft and I never suggested otherwise - if you read what I actually wrote.

You just ought to consider seeing a doctor, and if not, then you must avoid flying on a commercial flight because you will get ill and they will have to give you oxygen, divert, whatever, and a lot of people won't be very happy about that.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Took my J3 Cub up to 10,000ft a while back, Took quite a while to get there, but the most satisfying bit was calling Ipswich and saying "rejoining from FL100"

[Gertrude the Wombat]

calling Ipswich and saying "rejoining from FL100"
Yes, I reported "field in sight" to Cambridge, as requested ... when at FL95 and still half way across East Anglia. I was told to stop being silly and call back when I had five miles to run (or whatever).

[BRL]

Yes, I reported "field in sight" to Cambridge, as requested ... when at FL95 and still half way across East Anglia. I was told to stop being silly and call back when I had five miles to run (or whatever).

Excellent! :D:D:D

[S-Works]

When I first got my IR I still had my 152 and did quite a few airways flights in 10-12k feet. (Fully IFR equipped, GNS 430, ADF, DME, Dual Alt etc.).

IO540 is quite right that if someone is feeling noticeable ill effects at 8,000ft they have a problem. Long periods at 10,000ft without out will leave you tired and more difficulty concentrating but are not dangerous. It is only this year the CAA have started to mandate the use of O2 for the PILOT above 10,000ft. I do not put my passengers on O2 until 14,000ft.

My average sats at 10k without O2 are high 80's on O2 high 90's.

My Cessna has an 18,000ft ceiling and I have often had to get up there to avoid weather in France. 200fpm climb rate up there!

[maxdrypower]

arggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh . Neither of you are correct nr do I think either of you are AME's in fact have either of you passed HPL ? I regulalrly fly commericially and never get ill . Every pilot who has studied HPL knows exactly what I put in my last thread which I am not going to repeat.As an Ex RAF tyep I have been in a baro chamber on a number of occasions and know all the effects of o2 deprivation etc etc However I think based on the info given here by the two experts I will go back to gatwick and hand in my class one and tell them they dont know what their talking about.

[stickandrudderman]

You must have slipped 'em a few sheckles, eh?

[HR200]

I managed to get a Robin HR120/200B to FL125 in only 20 minutes a couple of weeks ago, I was well chuffed.

I could of stayed up there forever, at FL125 on your own makes you feel, well, it cant be described in words, but its the best anti-depressant in the world!!!

[IO540]

Lookin at som of da spelingg in dis thredd lotsa peeple r typyng it at 15ooo feeets wizz a veri emppty oksygen botle.

[maxdrypower]

Now theres a valid argument winning point if ever there was one

[drauk]

Maxdrypower, he is DEFINITELY big enough (and ugly enough!!!) to stick up for himself, but when it comes to oxygen, hypoxia and suchlike, Bose-X is something of an expert.

[maxdrypower]

So I assume is the CAA AME at Gatwick . I am sure he is an expert ,but when I say what I have said and it is downtrodden as if I am some sort of liar then that is not appreciated. In the PPL and atpl syllabus it clearly states that the effects of hypoxia can begin at 8000 ft . Mine began between 8500 and 9000 , consistent with the gen given by the syllabus and that given in the baro chamber in the RAF. I recently passed a class one so my health is deemed to be good . I have also recently had so many tests you wouldnt believe due to a suspected kidney issue . I am as healthy as can be , gym 4 times a week and rugby on a saturday . I just happen to show symptoms of hypoxia early . If based on the above info anyone wants to tell me what I am suffering from then by all means do so , But half the doctors in gatwick / cheshire manchester think Im A1 so surely that should be enough for people not to deride my comments when I am detailing an experience I have had . Experts they may be bit in this case I am afraid they are very wrong . Based on my personal experiences

[davidatter708]

Leave him alone everyone is different and just because someone starts getting symptoms earlier than others doesnt mean he is unwell it could boil down to the fact he has smaller lungs therefore dont take as much oxygen on each breathe. Anyway noone on here was with him so unless you were there Shut the fcuk up cause your just biaching for no reason.
David

[maxdrypower]

Thank you David , this may also explain why I can only run for five mins during the game on saturday , possibly , maybe , or it mught just be im and unfit git

[davidatter708]

lol netime I am getting a bit fed up of the biatching on here. I know that I have huge lungs but the price for this is the fact that I freeze when sitting in a room doing nothing for ages my heart beat drops to below about 40. Well random I know but noone is the same and until they are which is never then everyone has their own personal experience and can comment on them which is what was done here.
Dave

[maxdrypower]

Try going on the professional studies portion , it is full of assholes who can only criticize spelling and grammar and consider themselves to be perfect , Cant believe I am studying to be one of them . Some people on here type fast but like me are crap at it , everyone understands what is being said so why do they feel the need to point it out , do they really lack a life that much . On the private forum it is generally genuine people wanting genuine advice , but as usual everyones an expert . If you cant answer a query or have a valid point then dont contribute it just makes them look stupid

[IO540]

effects of hypoxia can begin at 8000 ft
I don't see anybody disagreeing with the above.

Just avoid flying commercially, if you see obvious symptoms at 8k. And perhaps see a doctor to make sure there is nothing seriously wrong.

I use o2 at 10k on long flights, say 2-6 hours. Keeps me fresh and on the ball.

Effects vary. I once flew with an instructor whose vision was too blurred at 12.5k to read the instruments. Within seconds of getting o2 he could see fine. The FAA recommends o2 at night above 5k - that's a specific effect of reduced o2 on night vision.

But I maintain that anybody feeling noticeably ill at 8k should get looked at. And avoid commercial airlines. It might save their life.

Cant believe I am studying to be one of them

If you are studying for an ATPL and you get noticeable hypoxia at 8k, you are wasting your time, because that is what your airliner will be at.

[maxdrypower]

For the tihird and final , time I do not suffer nor have I ever suffered on an airliner , ever ever ever , I have just achieved a class one medical , the required medical qualification for being a commercial pilot. I have undergone a lot of medical tests recently and I am A1 100 % .
I really dont know any other way of saying this so that it is understood . IO if you continue despite all the above to think I need medical assistance then please advise me of your AME and I wil go see him just to put your mind at rest . As you seem to think all the people I am seeing are quacks , although one did train in central america to be fair , we can probably discount him

[S-Works]

My friend had a stroke 3 days after his medical.

I am not saying you have any health problems. But seeing NOTICEABLE signs of hypoxia at 8500 (very precise) feet would cause me concern. Now if you are saying you have experienced some tiredness and fatigue as a result of altitude exposure then that is perfectly normal especially if night flying over 6000 ft, not to mention the effect on your vision. So for clarification are we talking this or, cyanosis, shortness of breath tunnel vision, ringing in the ears etc?

Having small lungs has nothing to do with oxygen exchange, the body naturally adapts the breathing cycle. How do you think girls manage.......

I am sure your books are correct and I will leave you happy in that knowledge.

So which chamber did you experience the aviation medicine hypoxia training in? North Luffenahm? Being Ex-RAF myself I also have a little knowledge of the syllabus .......

I am glad that my Class 1 medical makes me superhuman........ :ok:

[d192049d]

Little bit of thread creep going on all be it some interesting discussions. I am quite confident that MAXDRYPOWER has a fine pair of lungs...so back to my original post....I have got to 10,000' what should I attempt next in my "LUSTY" 152??

[maxdrypower]

thank you my lungs are superb ,except on a saturday.
Get some oxygen and try for 20'000 that should be fun

[gasax]

Go somewhere interesting to do it!

The last itme I was that high (actually 11,200 on 1013) was over central-ish Scotland. Could see Inverness, Edinburgh, Glasgow but unfortunately not much of the west due to cloud. Apart from being colder than my heating could cope with it was rather nice. Interestingly the aircraft stalled and generally operated just as it does at sea level although the max climb was down to around 3 to 400ft per minute.

Strangely my Mogas did n't immediately convert to vapour or my brain shutdown due to hypoxia. But great views and easy to get there using a bit of wave lift. Shame its so blooming cold! (about -26 that day!)

[maxdrypower]

I must say my recent flight whereby I found out that apparently I am seriously ill an due to drop dead any day was over that sort of way . Dropped into benbecula then over to cumbernauld via Ben Nevis , amazing flying and excellent views. Although you cant help but wonder if the engine does fail where are you gonna go ? Recommend it to anyone

[Sedbergh]

The original thread reminds me of a flight with a mate in a Cub out of a 5500 ft AMSL strip in Kenya. The Cub peaked at about 9000. That was probably thermal assisted cos we looked up and there was a vulture circling about 1000 feet above us.......... and he wasn't even flapping his wings!:rolleyes:


PS personally, 22000 feet, wooden glider, Aboyne. And I feel much happier being on oxygen above 11 grand. :ok:

[Dave Gittins]

Have had a 152 up to over 9,000 in Crete, to get over t ' ills between Heraklion and the south coast (at +33 C on the ground). Would have been a very interesting day if the donk had quit. Even the road below was just a succesion of hairpins with no straight bits.

In Colorado Springs 9,000 is necessary (in a nice injected C172), just for about 1,500 feet terrain clearance over my daughter's house and I was nowhere near high enough to get over the mountains nearby. The Hoosier Pass is 11,500 and the Eisenhower Tunnel between Denver and Vail only a little lower with some of the hills up to 13,000 +.

The circuit at Meadowlake is flown at 7,600 and even at my age I can breath OK.

DGG

[M609]

I've done 10K in a C172N, mind you only to escape some turbulence. Still had the throttle in the firewall and 80kts indicated......with 1200ft/min going down. Not a happy moment.

Ahh the joys of mountain flyging. :bored:

[B Fraser]

I have done the 5 digits in a balloon on a couple of occasions and my colleague and I checked on each other by asking if we felt slightly pissed which was to be our first indication that decending to below 10,000 feet would be prudent. The flame did get rather wide and "feathery" at altitude. :uhoh:

I have also thermalled to over 10,000 in the French Alps on a paraglider which gave me a great view of Mont Blanc and plenty of time to contemplate the sanity of trusting my life to a collection of threads and a reserve chute.

[Finals19]

In my last job, our cruise en route altitude in an un-pressurised a/c was 11000 one way and 12000 the other. Sometimes at night too! Highest I ever went sans O2 was 15,000 but admittedly wouldn't want to stay up there for long (just to dodge a couple of storm clouds) 12 grand never really seemed to have any noticable effect.

[scooter boy]

Dear SoCal,
I meant San Luis Obispo.

My cross countries did cross the mountains we flew a triangle from Van Nuys to Santa Barbara and then San Luis Obispo.

I agree with you, in retrospect it was a big challenge for a student pilot but I am still here to tell the tale.

SB

[Dave Gittins]

As I have only recently taken any notice of US ICAO codes it has just struck me how logical they are.

KCOS being Colorado Springs, KVNY = Van Nuys California, KSBO = Swainsboro Georgia, why can't our lot be as logical ?

ELHR for Heathrow or EGAT for Gatwick ........

I have trouble remembering EGTF is Faoroaks.

DGG

[scooter boy]

Socal app

Well please excuse my ignorance - I stand geographically corrected.

It was '93 and about 1600hrs ago.

I do recall that the routings my X-C took me on demanded a higher VFR cruise level than you suggest, if I still had the navlogs I would post them straight to you.

SB

[flexy]

12K in a flexwing BBRRRRRRR cold or what. Nice fresh air though.....Might take my aqualung and get a bit higher too....That will confuse em when the wing falls off and they find somebody in what looks like a golf buggy, wearing a boilersuit with an aqualung that died of hyperthermia.

[Toadpool]

Sorry to be a spoilsport, but I take it you Gents (and Ladies, if appropriate) are aware of the following from the UK AIP GEN 1.5.3. :-

1.3 Carriage of SSR Transponders
1.3.1 The requirements for the carriage of Secondary Surveillance Radar (SSR) equipment are hereby notified for the purpose of
Article 20(2) and Schedule 5 to the Air Navigation Order 2005. With the exceptions listed at paragraph 1.3.3, aircraft shall carry SSR
transponder equipment with a minimum capability as prescribed in the following table:
UK AIP (7 Jun 07) GEN 1-5-3
Civil Aviation Authority AMDT AIRAC 6/07
GEN 1.5 — AIRCRAFT INSTRUMENTS, EQUIPMENT AND FLIGHT DOCUMENTS
GEN 1.5.3 — EQUIPMENT TO BE CARRIED (cont)
(a) All aircraft operating outside of notified Mode S Enhanced Surveillance
airspace:
(1) United Kingdom Airspace at and above FL 100.
(2) United Kingdom Controlled Airspace below FL 100 when
operating under IFR.
(3) The Scottish TMA between 6000 ft ALT and FL 100
(4) When flying for the purpose of public transport.
(b) All aircraft operating inside notified Mode S Enhanced Surveillance
airspace:
(1) When operating in accordance with a Special Flight Notification
and a Rule 21 Flight in Class A Airspace exemption authorized
by the Civil Aviation Authority.
(2) When operating with a valid exemption from the Mode S
carriage requirements at sub-paragraphs 1.3.1 (c) and 1.3.1 (d)
below issued by the Civil Aviation Authority.
Mode A with Mode C altitude reporting.

[mm_flynn]

12K in a flexwing BBRRRRRRR cold or what. .....Might take my aqualung and get a bit higher too.

I assume you know that your aqualung (i.e. compressed air) won't help with hypoxia.

[flexy]

my aqualung is off my oxy-acetaleine welding rig so just right for the job...

[mm_flynn]

I hope you don't use it for diving!! pure O2 will kill you dead under pressure.

[gasax]

My what a happy community this is. If hypoxia doesn't get you at 10,000 feet, your mogas will vapourise at 20 deg C and if you ever subject an aircraft to 0g your wings will fall off and you'll be damned forever...

We need a lot more;

Oh, I have slipped the surly bounds of earth

And danced the skies of laughter-silvered wings,

Sunward I’ve climbed and joined the tumbling mirth

Of sun-split clouds—and done a hundred things

You have not dreamed of—

[maxdrypower]

I would have said I'd done that , but I would be at risk of being called a liar , charlatan , ne-er do well , have my grammar and spelling corrected and all other manner of pointless additions to the thread that are neither constructive nor helpful , But its fun

[S-Works]

I hope you don't use it for diving!! pure O2 will kill you dead under pressure.
Depends on your definition of pressure. CNS and OTU loading are more important than pressure and O2 won't kill you the resulting convulsion allowing you to drop the regulator and thus drown is what will kill you....

[mm_flynn]

Depends on your definition of pressure. CNS and OTU loading are more important than pressure and O2 won't kill you the resulting convulsion allowing you to drop the regulator and thus drown is what will kill you....
Cause - O2
Effect - Dead
Mechanism - Bose-x as ususal on all things diving right again. :-)

[flexy]

I use it for welding! So if I dont scuba before, fill it up with avgas -am I in?

[IO540]

I've been up to 18k, with oxygen obviously.

Once I did a 5hr flight almost entirely at 16k, UK to Slovenia, just staying on top of the muck. That used up most of a bottle (myself and my partner) and luckily I had one more so I could fly back to the UK on a similar route (over the Alps).

Aircraft performance permitting, altitude is no big deal. The portable oxygen kits are cheap - a few hundred quid. It opens up a whole new world for VFR touring in Europe, away from the UK-style PPL scud running cr*p, and is virtually essential for flying IFR on Eurocontrol-acceptable routes.

The big deal is getting them refilled. The scuba shops tend to get suspicious and when you mention "aviation" they usually leg it. Usually one can't get a refill away from home. I rent a huge welding oxygen (it's all the same stuff) bottle from British Oxygen - about £90/year rent and about £20 for an exchange bottle.

[bigfoot01]

I would have said I'd done that , but I would be at risk of being called a liar , charlatan , ne-er do well , have my grammar and spelling corrected and all other manner of pointless additions to the thread that are neither constructive nor helpful , But its fun


I have 2 words for you MaxDryPower - Punctuation! :)

[smith]

If based on the above info anyone wants to tell me what I am suffering from then by all means do so

Not HYPOXIA but HYPOCONDRIA!!!!

lol just kidding .............. or am I?:=

[Sedbergh]

Yup - those sound pretty much like the symptoms I had - the first time a girl said "yes":ok:

[maxdrypower]

Sir Pratt , owing to yours and everyone elses concerns I am going to be a miner instead , I just couldnt cope with taking up as much of your time worrying about me as I seem to be doing .

[maxdrypower]

Hheheheheheheh Yeh me too , Studying is horrid , and from this forum , whats the point apparently its all wrong anyway

[rateone]

Back on thread. I once had close to 18,000 ft in a Ka-8 glider (steel tube and fabric with wooden wings) in wave over the Grampians. I remember it was cold and a rather humbling experience. Part of me loved the sensation of the smooth, elevator-like climb along the wave bar, the feeling of remoteness and the beauty of being able to see most of the country but another part of me kept thinking about the two bolts holding the wings on. Strange really, no difference in likelihood of the wings coming off at 2000' against 200'. I suppose it was just the feeling of being so small against the panorama below me and the power of nature lifting me at about 500' min. That flight was over twenty years ago and I still reflect on it.

[Footless Halls]

On the subject of o2 on the cheap, anyone remember this event?

Many years back a glider pilot, rather than buying overpriced o2 from British Oxygen Company, snitched a refill of his bottle instead from a mate's Oxy-Acetylene kit.

Piloting his glider in epic wave lift, all went well until he crossed the magic 10,000' mark and turned the kit on.....

... to find out with the first breath that he had filled his bottle from the Acetylene side rather than with o2.

This story is many years old and I'm sure apocryphal

[JW411]

I have also spent a lot of my life wave soaring in Scotland with the RAFGSA. We used to borrow a proper oxygen rig from Kinloss.

I was always led to believe that using welding oxygen was bloody dangerous because the water content was too high for safety.

[IO540]

I was always led to believe that using welding oxygen was bloody dangerous because the water content was too high for safety.

That's disinformation (one of many in GA). Best to phone up British Oxygen - I have. All o2 comes from the same plant and is made to the same spec; the difference is in the paperwork which contains a tighter spec for medical/aviation grades. Welding o2 has to be very clean because even very tiny impurities visibly contaminate the weld. Lots of people have looked into this too - there is an article on avweb.com which says the same thing.

The water content specification is tighter for aviation oxygen because you could be potentially flying at levels where the temperatures are low enough within the airframe to freeze humidity in the regulators or the pipework. In the GA context, where the o2 bottle (of a fitted system) is in the boot and the pipework is within the passenger space even if behind trims, you would be freezing your b*lls off if it got that cold. If using a portable o2 kit it would need to be even colder because the system is right next to you. I can see this originates from old military requirements where there were indeed unpressurised (and poorly heated) jets with operating ceilings high enough to reach say -50C OAT, but this is hardly GA unless you are flying to the N Pole and you are wrapped up like an Eskimo...

Loads of people fly with welding oxygen. I've been using it for years, and because it's so hard to get refills I rent the big BOC bottle and - with appropriate safety measures - I refill the bottles myself.

[mm_flynn]

Originally some of the processes for making O2 could result in residual water content. Even today O2 manufactured on site is made from a very different process than the medical and welding product you buy from BOC. It is cooled to -200 (ish) in the process so any water will have dropped out as ice.

The big thing you get with medical O2 is that it has been tested so there is (almost) no possibility of having been mis-filled or having contaminants in it. In the 3rd world this is a real risk, in the UK it is a very remote theoretical risk.

[IO540]

I agree MMF that this could be a problem, but in practice it's almost impossible to get a refill when away from home, anyway. Getting avgas is the #1 job and then you look for a hotel :)

At really big airports it should be possible to refill using the facility for topping off the crew emergency oxygen in jets. I don't know anything about jets - I believe that in many transport jets types the bottle (located near the nosewheel) is actually swapped out but I know for sure that in King Airs the bottle is fixed (in the tail) and there is a threaded fitting for refilling. One could in principle carry a suitable adaptor. I looked into this once but was unable to borrow the other end so could not establish the thread. Anyway, this is pricey - I once paid £75 at Biggin and the bottle was away all day.

[S-Works]

Actually........

The difference is not just paperwork but in the way the cylinder is prepared. All O2 does indeed come out of the same "tap" at the depot but is the cylinder handling that differentiates what goes on the paperwork. Weldon O2 the the cylinder is just filled and sent out. Any gas designated as a breathing gas has the cylinder vacuumed and then the contents are tested to ensure they meet a minimum purity rating.

Water content is a misnomer as all O2 is actually produced the same way these days, false economy to do otherwise.

The minor problem with using welding O2 is that you could get contaminated gas. The chances are incredibly small and actually only matter when going down not up. We breathe so many impurities daily it makes little difference (smokers intentionally breathe in CO!).

Using contaminated gas for diving is where it gets really dangerous. I will save the theory on gas exchange for another day.

Personally for anyone wanting to fill there own ask for diving O2, it makes about £3 difference for a J cylinder and is certified as a breathing gas.

[IO540]

Personally for anyone wanting to fill there own ask for diving O2, it makes about £3 difference for a J cylinder and is certified as a breathing gas.

Do you have any names of dealers who will deliver to a domestic address, and charge about £23 for the full-size bottle of diving oxygen?

Getting o2 delivered is actually hard, I found, because the dealers claim their lorries won't carry o2 bottles on the same lorry as other gases. I live across the road from a pub which gets co2 gas deliveries all the time, but the company said it's far too much trouble for them to deliver o2 separately.

The good thing about welding oxygen isn't so much the price - there is no practical relevance to paying £20 v. say £60 for a huge bottle capable of doing one's entire annual airways flying requirement - it is the fact that welding supplies dealers are on every corner and it's easy to drop by with the old bottle in a trailer and collect the new one. I dread to think what my car insurance company would think of it ;) but the welding gear dealer doesn't care; he gets all kinds of body repair cowboys dropping in all day long.

[S-Works]

PM me, you know the address and I will sort it for you.

[BackPacker]

Dive shops regularly mix nitrox, which is basically air enriched with additional oxygen, up to 50% (normally). Does anybody know whether they are able to fill your bottles with 100% oxygen?

[IO540]

Yes they can - the problem I found with all my local ones is that they spot a non-diver from miles away and they refuse to fill a bottle for aviation use. I did the BSAC course part-way but could not bu**sh*t my way through this. One of them kept asking me for an oxygen handling certificate. In another it would depend which 16 year old kid was on duty when I turned up. Some shops do little o2 trade outside the UK diving season and don't carry the stuff then. One used to do it, and then the helpful man left.

Another problem was that the American portable aviation oxygen kit bottles have a U.S. "540" thread on top of their valves. This is also a dead give-away of you not being a diver. You can buy a 540 to BOC adaptor but it's normally a short stiff one, which requires the bottle to be held up high while being refilled from the (normally vertically standing) source bottle. The dive shops don't like doing this and I don't blame them - I like to be some distance away from the bottle being filled, but not so far I can't see the gauge. I refill mine via a flexible hose assembly made specially for high pressure oxygen, but if you turned up with one of those in a dive shop....

One solution, if you have a usable dive shop, is to get the bottles with a valve which has the standard diving thread on top of it.

All too much hassle. I wrote some details down - email me if you need more info.

Bose x - you have my email.

[BackPacker]

Thanks. I was mainly interested in the technical aspects but I am a diver and know that without the appropriate license, dive shops will not rent or sell you gear/air/whatever. However, if you show up with a pilots license with a high-altitude endorsement, explain the situation to the owner etc. and generally be honest and professional about your intentions, and obviously bring the correct adapters, I'd say there's a fair chance they'll help you anyway.

In fact, what I would do is pay a visit to my local dive shop beforehand, without the bottles and things, and have a chat with the owner about it. See what he thinks about it, set up an agreement about the way it's going to be done.

After all, there is no *legal* requirement for dive shops to check your license. It's just that as a matter of keeping the sport safe, dive shops all over the world have agreed that they will not help customers without checking whether the license someone has is compatible with what they're buying. They will not fill your bottles with air unless you have a basic divers license (PADI OW, for instance), will not fill your bottles with nitrox unless you have a nitrox license etc.

Anyway, the highest I've been to so far in my aviation career is FL55 (and 32 meters in my diving career), so who am I to offer expert advise on this?

[S-Works]

Having handled gas for 20 years I make a variety of adaptors and will fill any bottle. Most dive shops will fill a cylinder for you if you turn up with the correct adaptors for the cylinder. It is simple to make a whip for a CGA450 to SCUBA DIN477 fitting as it is for a bull nose to CGA 540 (O2 J cylinder). It is also simple to make an adaptor for converting a CGA540 to DIN 477 so the SCUBA shop can attach the filling whip direct to the cylinder.

The main problem occurs because the US cylinders are DOT standard cylinders and are not CE approved. This causes a problem for any gas filling station filling a non CE marked cylinder (despite them being the same cylinder with different paperwork). Another example of the problems caused by trying to bypass Europe....

However if you come prepared with the right adaptors and tell them it is an O2 kit you will get it filled. I will fill any cylinder provided it is in test to whatever the max working pressure is required (I have a gas booster). An average aviation O2 cylinder is about a fiver to fill.

All of the Mikes Waterfront Warehouses around the UK will fill an O2 kit as well if you have the adaptors. If anyone has a problem PM me and I will make a call.

[FullyFlapped]

I'm lucky enough to have plumbed-in O2, but having experienced a complete failure of the system (very high and over the worst sort of terrain for this to happen - ain't that always the way!) I think I'd like to get hold of a portable supply or two.

So, can anybody recommend one ?

Thanks !

FF :ok:

[S-Works]

PM me.....

[IO540]

I've sent you an email, FF. Personally I use an Aerox system, since 2003. I think the Mountain High kit has better fittings. I decided against using its electronic demand regulator because they confirmed (at Aero 2007) that it fails SHUT when the battery goes (despite others claiming otherwise). Currently I use Nelson mechanical demand regulators; they seem to work OK, but if I was doing it from scratch I would go for MH. The only thing I don't like about the basic MH kit is that their bottles don't appear to have the pressure gauge on the bottle valve so you can't tell how much is in some bottle you have just picked up.

[englishal]

I am a diver and know that without the appropriate license, dive shops will not rent or sell you gear/air/whatever
They do down here :) I don't dive as such but have a 3ltr pony bottle i use to clean my boat and get it filled from the shop.

Yes, yes, I know highly dangerous and all that....but I am very careful ;)