MEP - Please Help - Assistance Needed.

[jet2us]

Hi all,

Just a few questions I wondered if someone could help out with or some may be able to shed some light on their own thoughts, any comments would be brilliant.

I am a PPL A nearly reaching my 70hours P1 and looking at possibly getting my MEP. Can anyone help with the following questions I may have.

1. Has anyone completed an MEP with either BCFT or PAT both at Bournemouth and if so what were their thoughts?

2. What is the best recommended study material and referance manuals. AFE and Transair seem to have a few on offer but wondered what the general consensus was.

3. If I wanted to eventually start flying a PA31 for some Private Flying whats the typical sort of training I would need to do on this and does anyone know any individuals or a company that has PA31's available for Hire?

Hope someone can help

Cheers

Jet2us

[F900EX]

Generally speaking you will not find a Navajo for rental. If you were to find such a machine the minimums would probably be in the region of 1500hrs TT with about 500hrs multi and maybe 200 on type. This is based on current insurance regulations.

[jet2us]

F900 - Cheers for that Im guessing will need to stick to a BE76 or something similar for a while then.

Thanks for a quick reply! :O

[F900EX]

The Navajo is really quite a serious airplane for private use. Fuel burn and operating costs make it fairly prohibitive for anything other than carriage for reward.

There are plenty of decent twins for rental when you get your MEP. The DA-42 is pretty decent for touring as are many other types.

All the best.

[S-Works]

At 70hrs P1 I would suggest a twin is to much of a handful for you to consider you are still VERY green in flying terms.

Get some time under your belt, hone your navigation, get some complex time in something like an arrow and then consider MEP.

You will also struggle to get anyone to rent you anything with such low hours.
The comments about the Navajo are correct, I fly one that belongs to a friend and you are looking at around £800 per hour in operating costs.

I had nearly 2000 hrs and IR when I started to flying it and found it a handful for the first 20 or so hours.

[hugh flung_dung]

I've taught a few people at your level of experience; it may take a little longer than the course minimum but that's not unusual. If you're reasonably switched-on and still in learning mode you'll be fine. It may be cheaper overall if you convert onto something like an Arrow before starting the MEP course because you'll be familiar with gear and props (the same systems on an Arrow and a Seneca) but set against this you may be better doing the complex conversion in the MEP because you will get more handling time and will therefore be more comfortable in the twin - depends on depth of pocket, motivation, blahblah.

The organisations you mention are almost certainly OK but they use the BE76 and this is particularly easy to fly. Being easy to fly and handle when asymmetric is a good characteristic if you're doing your IR but not necessarily what you need for basic MEP training. You also need to consider how easy it will be to rent afterwards, when you want to build-up experience.

I do some of the MEP training from Old Sarum (near Salisbury) and we use a Seneca 1. The Seneca is more difficult to fly well than a BE76 and IMHO this makes it a much better basic MEP trainer. Providing you are current on type there's no difficulty renting after the course.

Regarding books ... useful but not necessary because you should be taught everything you need during the course.

HFD

[LateFinals]

I echo Bose- X's views. I started my MEP with 180 hours on Cessnas and really struggled on a Seneca. After a few hours my instructor sensibly advised me to stop wasting money and get some hours on a complex plane, which is when I moved onto the arrow which helped tremendously.

At the risk of thread drift I do question the wisdom of getting a MEP rating unless you're going to be very current, losing an engine on take off needs sorting out very quickly.

LF

[xraf]

If you are going to fly the Duchess one of the best training aids is the King schools multi engine DVD. It applies for other twins of course but they use a Duchess in the DVD and although they are American the twin stuff is pretty much universal.

I found the DVD gives a good basic grounding in the subject, then add in a generic twin book such as 'Transitioning toTwins' and of course the flight manual for specifics on your actual a/c.

You can get a copy of the King DVDs in the UK from Transair - but its not cheap, about 60-70 squid!

As for your relative 'Greenness' - who cares?! Do what you want to do. Of course you need to be sharper, more professional and more switched on to fly twins than you do to bimble round the local area in a 150 but so what? Either you can or you cant but you wont know unless you do it!:ugh:

.............Also if it turns out you cant handle it now - Do it later!

Regards
Xraf:ok:

[gcolyer]

Just be carefull not to knock your confidence if you find you struggle with the twin.

Flying a complex single at first is sound advice as you do have more to think about. if you are going to consider this first try to find a complex single that has a 120kt or greater cruise so you can get used to higher worklaods and higher speeds. Also fly it heavy so you get used to heavier aircraft.

[S-Works]

xraf, I don't think you are giving good advice.....

I have had a mix of people come to me for multi ratings recently and without a doubt all of the low hour pilots have struggled the most. At 70 hrs going from a tame school trainer into a twin is a quantum leap. Navigation requires more attention and everything goes wrong at a much greater speed.

As Gcolyer points out struggling with the twin really knocks your confidence. The same with any high performance aircraft. I have a guy doing a conversion onto the lance with me a the moment. 150 hrs and he is struggling to manage the performance.

But what would I know.

[xraf]

Bose x - If you disagree thats fine but I found the Kings stuff to be first class training material - just trying to help:ok:

[sussexlad]

I agree with the other posters that with low hours it really is a huge step up. I had around 150 hours TT and no complex experience when I did my MEP and it was one of the steepest learning curves I have faced through my flight training.

I did get the rating, but the next hurdle was finding a flying club that will let you take the aircraft solo, most of them are very wary about letting low hour pilots fly their twins without an instructor, and most clubs twins are booked solid for instrument training.

One club thats not to far from you that would let you hire their twins after a checkout is FlyingTime based at Shoreham, they have an Aztec and the DA42 Twinstars for £312 and £240 respectively, their website is - www.flyingtime.co.uk (http://www.flyingtime.co.uk)

Just to mention that from memory training towards an MEP in a DA42 restricts you to flying just that type due to it having FADEC as opposed to VP, though I may be corrected.

Best of luck! :ok:

[S-Works]

Actually it was the lack of experience rather than the materials I was talking about!

[xraf]

Yeah I thought you might be!

So....if you check jet2whatnots posts he has asked questions about PPL flying in fast jets, high speed generally, helicopter importation and twins. I am guessing he's not short of the odd bob and if he wants to spend it on twins why not.

If its a struggle - good. Thats what makes things worthwhile.

If he cant do it in 6 hours - so what.

If it takes extra practice and a bit of study - again so what.

Unlike the military there's no 'chop' out here in civvieland just extra costs, for my two pennyworth do as much as you can afford, as soon as you want to, work hard, stay sharp and enjoy it- lifes too short for any other philosophy.

Of course some people cant do it all but what do you suggest - dont even try? I hope not!

However, as 'knocking confidence' will undoubtedly come up I'll state my position on it now: Most people in aviation aren't timid, they know that they need both training and experience but when they feel ready to try something - let them!

If someone decides that because they are unable to do something IMMEDIATELY or in the minimum time, they should give up, then perhaps they should not be aviating at all?

Obviously, none of the above is meant to override common sense, an individual's instructors feelings and sound advice BUT it is an attempt to encourage the next generation to have a go, so they dont give up too soon, or worse dont try in the first place.

As for what you know, I am of course familiar with Bose x's excellent record in training, indeed I'm sure the guy in the Lance will get there, but maybe not in 6 hours. There's nothing wrong with that, or an occasional reminder that its OK to try something and fail if only temporarily! (something we tend to forget these days.)

Every wannabe on here seems to talk about minimum times minimum exams and minimum knowledge, perhaps we can encourage different mentality.

Regards
Xraf:ok:

[gcolyer]

Minimum this and minimum that is a biproduct of minimum cost. The UK is so friggin expensive that everyone wants to do it everything as cheap as possible.

So I am in the belief that if you struggle in a twin at £250 an hour why bother? Especially if you can get half way there in a complex single for £100 something an hour, not dent your ego/confidence and make your learning curve less steep. And most of all make it more enjoyable and safe.

Don't get me wrong I am all about people pushing themselves and maybe having a little set back in the process. But saftey and enjoyment should come before minimums and cost.

[jet2us]

Thanks guys for all your suggestions and help - I really appreciate it. Xraf good observations! ;) top marks! haha. Yes I would eventually like to fly some form of ex-forces fast jets , my ideal being a hawk, if and when they ever get decommisioned somewhere along the line! If not a JP sounds fun.

Well I have been flying for the past few years but its only the last sort of six months I have been managing to rack up some hours and Ive started really getting back into it and feel that a twin is an exciting and probably a very rewarding challenge.

A chap from Wolverhampton brought me back in a Seminole the other week and let me fly it all the way home and when I asked if he wanted control for the landing his reply was " nope you can do it" He was a CPL multi instructor of course and it was during this flight that I began to think - " I gotta do this more often".

So since then I have been looking in to it a bit more, but im very interested in any advice that I can get. I do certainly appreciate the comments from both bose x and latefinals. I will be looking at starting commercial ground school in September so I will more than likley be completing an MEP next year but I just got this thing where I cant wait, Id like to do it now.

But perhaps the suggestion about getting into an Arrow for the next few months isnt a bad idea! At least then I can build up some more confidence with retractable undercarriage and a little more power.

Also thanks to gcolyer and sussexlad I appreciate both your comments also. I will def look into that DVD from Transair

Finally in response to hung flung dung I work closley with a rental company who has a few BE76 so would probably be able to get some usage of one - what would your personal opinion be on the best sort of machine for MEP? - Seneca?
Cheers Again.

[hugh flung_dung]

jet2us:
The Duchess is very easy to fly but IMHO it's a little too easy for a good basic MEP trainer - the Seneca is harder to fly well and therefore better to train on (plus it doesn't need those silly carb heat levers!). But if you can get a Duchess at an advantageous rate ...

At Sarum we have several recently qualified "MEP"s who team-up to do shared trips; by doing this you benefit from all the nav legs but only pay for (and log) the ones you fly - this is a very good way to build experience.

HFD