Refueling with passengers embarking

[Krueger]

I have one doubt (well I ave many more, but this is one) concerning refueling with passengers on board, embarking or disembarking.
In Jar-ops, one of the requisites is a supervisor of the refueling with a two-way communications with the cockpit.
I would like to know what procedures does your company use...

Manyy thanks, krueger.

Check Six...:cool:

[Henry VIII]

Tech personnell connected through the interphone.

[spannersatcx]

There was a discussion on here some time ago about this, maybe worth a search.

[flyboyike]

Our policy under FAR121 is that we can refuel with passengers, but we cannot service the O2 system with pax.

[mupepe]

not allowed in my company ! :D
this remove the hassle in case of problem to all.

[None]

The FAA does not allow us to refuel with passengers if using TS-1 (Russia), Jet B, or other "wide cut" types.

[bflyer]

Hi
In my company..we are allowed to refuel with pax on board,provided
1-Fire truck is standing by close to the aircraft
2-Cabin crew checks that all pax have their seat belts un-fastened
3-The 'NO SMOKING' sign is switched off
4-No loading/offloading of pax,catering..etc is allowed during this phase
5-pax embarkation/disembarkation has to be completed either before or after refueling with remaining pax on board

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

3-The 'NO SMOKING' sign is switched off That is a typo?

[bflyer]

:O
Sorry what i meant was the'FASTEN SEAT BELT' sign is switched off during the refueling with pax on board to allow for a fast exit should something happen
Of course the 'NO SMOKING' sign is ON
Tkx for the heads up

[TURIN]

Standard procedure on one of the airlines I see daily is this.
Refuelling starts whenever the refueller decides to get to the aircraft. Whether it's safe to start or not.
The cabin crew swan around oblivious, either glad handing each other or moaning at the catering staff.
The Catering and Cleaning staff block as many exits as possible with trucks, carts and boxes, ably assisted by cabin crew who insist on setting up the drinks trolly across the remaining exit (blocking it also).
The ground handling agent places a set of steps at a rear door when they can be bothered to. I say "at the door" what I mean is approximately in line with but about 5 ft below and a couple of feet from the fuselage.
If there are any flight crew on the aircraft they will have locked the cockpit door and are having a quiet smoke, totally oblivious to calls from the ground and refusing entry to anyone attempting access.
Passengers will be in and out of the aircraft making mobile phone calls or strapped into their seats fast asleep or dead depending on your point of view.
The engineers will be banging their heads against a wall somewhere as it is far more productive than actually attempting to get the correct procedures to be followed despite all their efforts for the past 5 years. :ugh:
I kid you not! :(:sad::mad:

[mono]

If you really want the correct procedures to be carried out then the solution is simple.

STOP THE FUELLING!

Did it today when there were no steps at the rear of the a/c and the rear L4 door wasn't armed.

With OTP the driving force the procedures are quickly applied when there might be a delay.

[rubik101]

Turin, just where and which airlines are you apparently describing here? What you have written is a load of tosh and just doesn't happen in the real world. Are you a pilot? I suspect not.
If and when you are qualified to express an opinion, please do so, but until then, restrain your imagination please.

[spannersatcx]

rubik101, what Turin describes is very much like an airline that we used to handle. So I would disagree that it is a load of tosh and it does happen in the real world. Many a time we have stopped fuelling them for reasons Turin states, but they seem to be a law unto themselves.

Many a time I've walked onto the flt deck and can't see because of the smoke and told them that you WILL be delayed as we are stopping fueling until a) you stop smoking and b) you arm an exit door and position cabin crew by it and sometimes c) stop transmitting on HF.

[sudden Winds]

my company
1) one FA at each galley
2) one in the middle
3) no fueling and other services, catering, bags, etc.
4) nothing obstructing the aisle. i´ll get back to this.
5) one pilot (one pilot and on flight engineer for the 742) in the cockpit
6) maintenance guys on the interphone
7) No smoking on
8) fasten belts off
9) all slides armed !!!
10) emergency exit lights armed.

#4 is a grey area because a 200 lb passenger putting his 70 lb big bag in an overhead bin that´s not empty IS something blocking the aisle...not to mention more than 1 passenger doing that.
our regs do allow fueling at the same time as embarking, tho
If the captain´s already gone and I am sitting their while refueling I personally do not allow them to board pax while fueling.

[TURIN]

rubic101...

Of course I'm not a pilot!

When was the last time a pilot was interested (or indeed had the time to be bothered) with the details I described? That's what chaps like myself and spannersatcx are for!

By the way spanners, it IS the same airline. ;)

I have no beef with you rubic101 therefore I take your aggresive attitude with a pinch of salt.

But check your PMs anyway. :ok:

[vs69]

Yeah TURIN just to back up your post I had similair dealings with a similair outfit,without wanting to give too many details away my Mandarin was a bit rusty so any requests often fell on seemingly deaf ears.
As a footnote what is it with some people on this forum who feel you are unable to possess and express a valid opinion on anything unless you are a pilot?

[FHA]

TURIN: Good post! Seen it many a time.

RUBIK101: if you click on public profile, you would see that TURIN is an LAE and therefore better qualified than anyone to comment.

[airsupport]

The trouble with doing this is that not everyone understands and/or follows the rules.

I was travelling one trip as a pax here in Australia some years ago when we (pax) were boarded during fuelling to speed up a turnround.

Most things were ready except for the fuelling, they had already taken away all the mobile stairs etc just the aerobridge left, and slides were not armed, when one of the flight attendants asked me to fasten my seat belt as the light was on.

I VERY POLITELY refused to, telling her it was illegal and offering to stand in the aerobridge even until fuelling was finished, and she said "we will see about that" and she stormed off to the cockpit to tell the Captain.

Next minute the seat belt light goes OFF, and there was a PA from the cockpit asking all pax to unfasten their safety belts.

Fuelling with pax on board is not a great idea, but IF you must do it, you really NEED to follow the rules.

[Weasel123]

As someone who works in the fuel industry (not aviation) I find it amazing, almost medievil in terms of health and safety, that planes are allowed to be refuelled with people on board. I know of no other area of fuel supply/distribution where this would be permitted!!



Was the risk assessment written by an amateur!! :eek:

[Alpine Flyer]

The rules about fueling with pax on board were written at a time when highly combustible Avgas was poured in through overwing fillers. The risk associated with pressure-refueling Jet A1 is much lower.

I may be too young in the business but is anybody aware of a refueling incident that might have posed a risk to pax if they had been seated with their belts fastened?

The current rules make sense but doing more would be overdoing ist. There are so many other things that could happen which would require an evacuation which are not covered by any security regs, so there's really no need to single out refueling for further attention.

Our company useses pretty much standard JAR-OPS procedures although two-way communication is hard to maintain in some types if they don't have a connector at the refueling panel.

[Weasel123]

Pressurised refuelling does not mean safer refuelling.

And just because there hasn't been an incident, doesn't mean there won't be. Never assume anything when it comes to H & S.

[TURIN]

No pax injured but one poor soul on the ground met his end....

http://http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20010918X01956&key=1

Who knows? If things had got much worse maybe pax would need every second to get out. :sad:

[airsupport]

As someone who works in the fuel industry (not aviation) I find it amazing, almost medievil in terms of health and safety, that planes are allowed to be refuelled with people on board. I know of no other area of fuel supply/distribution where this would be permitted!!

Despite what has been said here, including by me, the situation especially with Jet A1 is relatively safe.
I would be more worried about people at the local service station, filling their car with petrol while the kids are strapped inside the car.

[Fuel Boy]

I work as a Fueller and on a daily basis fuel while Pax are on board..

We have this situation because airlines do not control turnarounds.
We arrive normally 1 hour before Dep. to fuel, the major problem is that we end up waiting for final figs.from crews in this time they are boarding PAX in the hope of leaving "on time".

Fuelling with Pax on board while become more frequent as airlines demand shorter turn around times.!!!! "IF" we ever see a turn round plan it would be great for safety but would mean longer turn arounds, and not sure that some low cost carriers would like this idea!

As a side, surely it would be better to fuel while pax are exiting,as if something did go wrong they are at least facing the right way go evacuate???