View Full Version : COUNTDOWN at CATHAY.

Kaptin M
28th Jun 2001, 17:39
CNN stated today that Cathay Pacific management, and representatives of the Cathay pilots, held marathon 12 hour talks yesterday and would resume again today, in an attempt to avert disruptions to Hong Kong's flag carrier.

Some of the incidents preceding these talks have given an indication of the degree of pressure that has been building up on BOTH sides. It also appears obvious, that the battle-hardened Cathay pilots have realised that their experience alone might not be deep enough to "negotiate" with a management who also found it necessary to enlist outside advisors. Is this a glimpse of things to come for other pilot groups whose contracts/agreements are due for renewal?

July 1st looks set to be a chapter in CX's history book - one way or another!

28th Jun 2001, 21:33
Good luck CX guys, the time is now or never. Interesting article on P52 of the current Flight, "Widespread industrial action by flight crew.......is raising fears that the lack of airline investment in pilot training over the years has resulted in a crew shortage, giving flight crews the advantage in negotiations".
Talk to any airline recruiter and they can't get the guys with the hours and experience they need.
Not many of us relish the thought of industrial action, but a bit of pain now will return to us all the rewards which have been slowly chipped away over the last decade.

28th Jun 2001, 21:50
why dont shut the damn thing once and for all.

29th Jun 2001, 11:21
I hear the HKAOA has been consulting with ALPA and other U.S. pilot associations...

Latest news doesn't appear encouraging:

June 29, 2001

Cathay Pacific Negotiations
With Pilots Union Collapse


HONG KONG -- Talks between Cathay Pacific Airways and its pilots' union broke down late Thursday after the union spurned a settlement proposal from the airline, increasing the possibility that the union will begin its threatened industrial action on Sunday.

The union is demanding that Cathay stick closer to monthly duty schedules and that it end differences in pay and benefits among pilots depending on date of hire and whether the pilot is based in his or her home country.

Cathay said its offer included hourly raises of 10.5% for pilots hired after 1993 and 5%-6% for those hired before that date. The offer also included revised overtime-pay calculations, increased retirement fund contributions, extended maternity leave and higher housing and children's education benefits for expatriate pilots.

Tony Tyler, Cathay's director of corporate development, questioned the union's interest in reaching an agreement and said they didn't present a meaningful counterproposal. He also said the union increased demands in response to concessions.

"We have put a lot of money on the table to keep the Hong Kong public traveling at a time when the airline industry and the regional economy remains shaky," said Mr. Tyler. "Anything more would be impossible and would clearly compromise our long-term competitiveness."

John Findlay, general secretary of the pilots' union, the Aircrew Officers Association, described the breakdown as "an impasse in negotiations," but said the union is willing to continue negotiations Friday.

A union representative wasn't available to comment on Cathay's proposal or the nature of Thursday's negotiations.

The pilots voted last week to begin "limited industrial action" on Sunday and planned to distribute instructions to members Friday. Cathay said if the union proceeded with instructions it would break off talks to focus on preparations to accommodate passengers during the three-day holiday weekend. Mr. Tyler said the carrier is making preparations to charter planes and rebook passengers on other airlines.

The union hasn't specified what its actions would be. A letter sent to members by Mr. Findlay said, however, that if Cathay threatened pilots with dismissal as it did during a 1999 confrontation, and they therefore feared going to work, they could be considered "unfit to fly."

29th Jun 2001, 12:56
Just to put thing's in perspective; The post 1993 salary ('B' scale) increase is in the right direction although this is still well below 'A' scale salaries. The pre 1993 ('A' scale) salary increase is actually a removal of the third year of salary cuts. This will not be a big win for CX crews.

In fact the offer was announced to pilots by the Director of Flight Operations as a "this is what you are missing out on" letter.

The offer has been withdrawn by management. Swire managers do not negotiate in good faith. End of story.

29th Jun 2001, 17:02
What some of the guys at CX fail to understand is that the extravagant expat salaries of yesteryear are simply NOT available in todays' lower cost driven competitive market. Wake up guys, the bloom has gone off the rose.

29th Jun 2001, 18:01
Friday, June 29, 2001

Cathay rules out further talks
Management slams pilots' 'gimick' tactics


Last updated at 6.25pm:

Cathay Pacific management on Friday ruled out further negotiations with pilots to avert threatened industrial action that could wreak havoc with flights in the peak-travel weeks ahead.
Tony Tyler, Cathay's director, Corporate Development, dismissed as a gimick an apparent olive branch from the pilots' union, who earlier announced that they would delay the start of the planned action from Sunday to after the holiday weekend.

''The delay in disruption for two more days is just another PR gesture. We urge the AOA [Aircrew Officers' Association] to pick up the new proposals on the table,'' he said.

The company simply could not afford anything more than the offer on the table and refused to continue negotiations under the threat of industrial action, Mr Tyler said.

The proposed package - a 10.5 per cent pay rise, 15.5 per cent MPF payment offer, and 2.5 times normal-pay overtime package - amounted to ''hundreds of millions of dollars''.

However, when questioned how Cathay would react to a possible initiative from the Chief Executive's office to avert industrial action by instituting a ''cooling down period'', Mr Tyler said: ''If it is imposed by the Government, we will accept it. But Cathay Pacific is not the one raising the temperature, it is the AOA leaders who need to cool down.''

Mr Tyler slammed the union for never having ''presented a meaningful counter-proposal'' and described a union request for data about their working hours as ''a ploy, a diversionary gimick''.

The union, should it accept the offer would have to make a ''firm commitment to avert any future industrial action through the four-year term of the agreement''.

''Our position is simple and firm. There is a generous and comprehensive agreement before the AOA leadership that provides for significant improvements in pay, benefits and rosters. It is the Hong Kong AOA leadership's choice whether or not to accept this deal. This proposal will remain on the table through tomorrow 30th June,'' a company statement read.

The offer would be withdrawn if there was no response from the AOA.

Speaking earlier, John Findlay, of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers' Association said the 48-hour delay to industrial action would allow four more negotiating days, should talks restart today.

The union called for Cathay Pacific to go back to the negotiating table and said it would reassess the situation after the new deadline.

Mr Findlay denied the union had bowed to pressure from Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa, some Legco members and the public.

He also responded to Mr Tung's condemnation of their possible industrial action, saying that the union shared his concerns.

''Mr Tung's statement did seem to be pro-Cathay Pacific. The reason for it was he had been ill-informed with only one-side's position.''

They had asked to meet Mr Tung on Thursday but were told that the Chief Executive had a full schedule for the day, Mr Findlay said.

He accused the management of refusing to provide data on hours worked which the pilots claimed could reveal the real picture of their work.

''The data which has been provided [by Cathay Pacific earlier] does not allow a proper evaluation of the contract. This data shows flying hours worked in a calendar year, that is from January to December. The data is not too useful in that it distorts the contractual requirement to work 700 flying hours in a Productive Year, which was measured by individual pilot's birthday,'' Mr Findlay said.

Haulin' Trash
29th Jun 2001, 18:55
Good luck you CX guys - just look at the decent contracts that strong, solid action by your colleagues in the US got at DL and UA. You used to be industry leading - go for it again.

29th Jun 2001, 19:26
Latest development: CX offer is good till the evening of June 30, and will be withdrawn thereafter. HKAOA said they will NOT take the "limited industrial action" during the long weekend (July 2 is public holiday in HK). According to HK law, the government can stop an industrial action on the ground that it cause serious threat to its economy and/or stability. However, they never did that since such law was established back in 1975.

Personal obervation: probably the worst labour side PR for an industrial action. Even the quasi "labor parties" in HK is against the HKAOA, not to mention the general public and the government.

[This message has been edited by SEAT 81A (edited 29 June 2001).]

30th Jun 2001, 07:41
4lla you are a compulsive idiot.

You know nothing of our situation besides the conversations you have in your dreams with the likes of me!

Tell the US carriers about salaries and what is negotiable.

You go on about the lack of local pilots (on other forums) and choose to ignore the ever increasing number in CX. Part of our dispute is rostering and part of our dispute is to remove the inequalities that exist for the locally employed pilot.

All I personally want is a proper roster and to stop the rot in my salary. I enter a third year of pay CUT'S tomorrow, July 1. You say CX can't afford to pay salaries like mine any more.... they just had their largest profit in their corporate history(>HK$ 5 BILLION). They have US$ BILLIONS in the bank and what you spout is management style drivel. Why is it always a case of screw the staff? Why are the rich always the ones getting richer? Why do you say what you do????

Keep your dirty wannabe nose out of my business. You disgust almost all pilots that read these forums with your pathetic attitude. I think you might be an accountant in real life!

30th Jun 2001, 08:42
More from the South China Morning Post:

Saturday, June 30, 2001

Cathay turns screw on pilots

Airline rejects union's offer to delay start of industrial action as 'empty PR gesture'


Cathay Pacific turned up the heat on its pilots yesterday, refusing to restart talks on pay and conditions, and saying the union could take or leave the package of improvements it had offered.

The airline dismissed as an "empty PR gesture" the pilots' move to put off any industrial action until at least Tuesday.

The union had planned to launch the action tomorrow and said the postponement showed its sincerity in wanting to negotiate a settlement without affecting passengers.

Cathay gave the pilots until midnight tonight to accept its offer and said it would be withdrawn at that time if there was no agreement.

Aircrew Officers' Association general secretary John Findlay said yesterday morning that members considered industrial action a last resort and urged Cathay to return to the negotiating table.

"We are now giving extra time for the talks to continue, right up to midnight on July 2. We will not be taking any action and the holiday plans of Hong Kong people this weekend will not be disrupted," he said.

"We call on Cathay Pacific to make a similar gesture. Let them show their sincerity . . . and get back to the negotiating table. We do not want conflict."

The union had planned to distribute its strategy for industrial action yesterday but said it would instead put the document out on Tuesday. The industrial action is widely expected to cause flight delays and cancellations almost immediately...


30th Jun 2001, 09:04
Looks like the CX pilots are back-pedeling yet again. Their "resolve" must be looking a tad.......limp.

Classic Dick
30th Jun 2001, 09:17
I doubt the Pilot's "resolve" has changed one iota,the fact is,as with Singapore,it is impossible to effect any industrial action without severe consequences. The Pilot's know this and ,unfortunately so does the Cathay management.

Unless there was to be a similiar situation to the Pilot's Dispute of 1989 in Australia - they let their feet do the talking and all resigned. I fear the Cathay management will always hold the upper hand and will dictate terms and conditions accordingly. We had the same situation in Singapore and they always did just enough to keep us on board.

30th Jun 2001, 09:44
TRUST: I know you are frustrated, but what do you gain by saying something in such manner? You only lost support from other observers. That is the PR work that you and HKAOA should learn.

PR is crucial. The HK government is free to provide full support to CX because the public is on CX's side (in the 1999 dispute, they are slightly on the pilot's side) and politicians won't put pressure on the government for supporting the employer. CX also knows that most PAX will come back once the strike is over. Less PAX complain also means that it is easier for the non F/D staff to handle the strike. All these allow CX to play hard ball.

30th Jun 2001, 10:08
SOG = 411A = idiot

No reduction in my resolve or the 92% of union members that voted 'yes' to limited industrial action. By the way 411A have you ever been in a union? I doubt it.

Roll on Monday.

Kaptin M
30th Jun 2001, 14:16
Thrust, I disagree, 411A had his position protected by a pilot representative group - ALPA-S - during his tenure at SQ, something to which he is probably oblivious. likewise, the "golden years at Cathay", to which he makes frequent reference, were "golden" because employer/employee worked TOGETHER to overcome contractual differences.

Honestly, how many grey cells does it take for an employer to say, "Here is your contract - take it or leave it!".
How does management with THAT type of mentality justify the salaries they draw.
BTW, can someone tell us exactly what the salaries of these Einsteins are, please?

One other simple equation:

Q: Take management away from the airline for a month, and see how long the airline is grounded.
A: The truth is, NO-ONE would probably even notice!
Not ONE day!


Q: Take the pilots away from the airline for a month, and see how long the airline is grounded.
A: I take a wild stab, and say....A MONTH!

30th Jun 2001, 17:58
All I or anyone else know about 411A is that he has access to a computer. This is an anonymous forum.

Read any thread that 411A post's onto and you will see the same reaction. He say nothing constructive and only tears away as though hateful of any pilot group. I find it therapeutic to vent my spleen on him in these times of stress. It's a pleasure to know that he is useful in one area at least.

Tough luck if I offend someone else.

However, I'll bow to you that think pprune is read by the chief exeuctive and leave him alone. (as if either care)

30th Jun 2001, 18:52
Best of luck to all at Cathay. We watch with great interest from the U.K.

Ignore the rantings of 411A, there is someting missing. Perhaps senility has set in?


30th Jun 2001, 20:45
Just a little query. Thrush, you say "roll on Monday" but isn't industrial action supposed to start on the 1st of July. Therefore, it would start tomorrow on Sunday!

30th Jun 2001, 20:47
The HKAOA ( all 1300 of us ) have voted for industrial action. The opinions of the likes of 411A have no bearing on the issue

PR is certainly part of the battle but we are not running for public office. If 100% of HK's population were on our side it wouldn't make one ounce of difference.

This is about the solidarity of the HKAOA. If we stick together perhaps something good will emerge.If we don't then we have to face the consequences. Every single member of the HKAOA realises this.

411A. Your comments are those of a bitter and lonely soul. I note the number of postings you have made on PPrune in such a short period of time particularly regarding this issue. Your views on our struggle certainly show an unhealthy interest in an issue about which you know absolutely nothing.

The HKAOA is doing the very best it can to try and right the wrongs of the last 8 years. We don't have all the answers and the outcome is far from certain but we will try our best.

411A..Please go away. Please inflict your views on persons involved directly with you and your immediate surroundings. A lot of good people have put a lot of effort in to the just fight against the corrupt Cathay management. You and your comments do them a huge injustice.
Your presence amongst us disgusts me.

Thanks to all the other professionals for your support.

30th Jun 2001, 20:52
Very well said Herb.

411-A, please go and speak to people that actually want to hear your opinions, oops, no one does!

How about saving the keys on your keyboard, as they must be very worn out now, and piss off!

30th Jun 2001, 22:55
Sounds as though these CX pilots are getting desperate and have delayed their "action" for a few days. Suspect that the company has more clout than they thought.
Better to keep your jobs guys than to be out on the street, especially for the very vocal effos. Not many jobs for malcontents these days.
Some guys just have to learn the hard way.

Kaptin M
1st Jul 2001, 02:22
411A, your last post really DOES prove that you are completely unknowledgable about almost ALL aspects of aviation, and the CX dispute in particular, however you continue to post either to (a) clock up more posting numbers against your handle, or, (b) to enjoy being abused because of the irrationale you exhibit each time you hit the submit key. Honestly, read Herb's previous comments, and take them to heart!
The Cathay pilots have delayed the start of their action so as not to inconvenience the travelling public over a holiday period - what's the point of taking action that appears to be aimed at the general public, and upsetting them from day #1 - besides that a couple of days NOW are neither here nor there in the overall scenario of what looks like being a l o n g drawn out battle.

Secondly, the job situation is extremely healthy for pilots at present. One of my work colleagues has had two job offers in the past 14 days - one a 767 job based in Japan, and the other as a B747 skipper based in L.A. - and he is not rated on either aircraft! But that isn't the point.
Why stay in a job with an abusive, aggressive employer - the aggro factor is going to affect your life even when you are not working, always wondering what the pr!ck is going to try to take away from you at his whim and fancy. It's patently obvious that this current management at CX is nothing less than a bully, who doesn't care how much of the company's financial resources he squanders to satisfy his ego. This time however - if he persists - HE may well cause the demise of Cathay and ALL its employees.

After all, what do you call an airline that doesn't have pilots?

wayne campbell
1st Jul 2001, 02:35
Sounds to me that 411a has hit a soft spot. A little.......nervous are we fellahs.

Kap M,
Reference the abundance of jobs - give it 6 months mate.

1st Jul 2001, 03:54
Kaptin M---
And what do we call pilots without an airline? Well, where I come from, it's called "out of work" as in out of work, Australian style, circa 1989.
Suspect that CX management has all the face cards. Just because all the CX pilots think, wish, hope, it will all "be better" ain't going to make it happen.

1st Jul 2001, 06:46
390, Monday is the first day I can see my doctor to check my stress level and take a week or two off!! Now there's a thought.

1st Jul 2001, 10:35
Focus is everything. Thoughts beget action. Stay focused and think positive. You can run an airline without management. You cannot run an airline without pilots. Nuf said.

1st Jul 2001, 11:25
CX Pilots

No pain no gain, No risk no fun. We can not have feet on both sides, Go for all out war!
Good luck. The North american pilots have nonstandard RT but very high standard Union, thats why they always get what they aim for.
Once again good luck

1st Jul 2001, 11:48
I understand that this is none of my business as i am an outsider, however i must urge you guys to stick to your previous commitment to remain quiet on this issue. 411a-hole is clearly a manager of the new style (similar to yours) and knows the right buttons to push to elicit a response from you boys. This has the potential to expose any cracks (no matter how small) that might be appearing in your united front. It goes without saying that this is a very emotional issue, however most responses will only serve to strengthen the position of the company, not yours. From where i sit, the fact that you are prepared to be drawn into an argument with 411a-hole indicates you may not be focused enough on the big picture. Sure venting your spleen will bring some short term relief in these tense times, however it is unlikely it will help your cause at all, and most likely will be detrimental because, as you all well know, your management is reading this. If you cannot maintain commitment to keeping quiet on this forum, it can only be assumed by your adversaries that you will eventually break ranks on the main issue as well. DONT LET THAT HAPPEN. Don't for a minute convince yourself that one post won't make a difference, because somewhere, someone else is waivering, and when they see you guys talking, they will join in, then another and another and the rot has set in and 411a-hole has beaten you. DONT LET THAT HAPPEN. Get your heads below the trenches lads, this is a serious matter, leave the talk to your nominated spokesperson. Good luck and stay strong, your issues are significant and worth fighting for.
I too will retreat and steel my resolve against the inevitable snipes from the most universally dislike pruner in the world. Bring it on 411a-hole!

By the way, has it occurred to anyone else that this idiot (411a) spends so much time pruning that he either has no job or no life or likey both?

[This message has been edited by druckmefunk (edited 01 July 2001).]

New China Driver
1st Jul 2001, 12:37

What a sensible posting.

Now all of you....as per FH let's


;) ;) ;)

1st Jul 2001, 14:36
Best wishes and strong support to all Cathay Pilots on strike from those of us here in the UK. CX are the most devious and sinister employer, as are their managment consultants who have helped create this situation.

We know that where you go, we at Big Airways may yet have to follow.(Hi Rod!).

Best of luck to you all.

Back to the management typing pool 411a!!

1st Jul 2001, 15:14
411A - you are a sh!t stirrer, but have hit the nail on the head. There will be no strike at Cathay Pacific and very little industrial action.(with the exception of the normal [and legal] sick parade)

Classic Dick has correctly summed up the situation and that IS IT ! Feet do the talking or accept what is on offer.

Kaptin M - after your time in SQ,or should I say - SINGAPORE, I can't believe you don't appreciate the Cathay Pilots' quandry!
This is not '89 Mateeeeeeeeee and neither is it Australia !

Keep the faith :]

*****edited for typo*******

[This message has been edited by Whiskery (edited 01 July 2001).]

James T. Kirk
1st Jul 2001, 17:28
How are CX management selected?

There seems to be great similarities in those chosen to serve in the heady heights of Cathay management. Ex - RAF / RAAF, Free mason, Owner of rotting hulk type barge in one of the marinas around HK, Married a Local Chinese girl, fanatical consumer of the company financed liquid lunch to name but a few. What puzzles me is the downward spiral in intelligence. Could it be the case that when a manager appoints his replacement he is aware that it would be very easy to expose the stupidity which accompanied his reign. To avoid this he is constrained to install a successor who has proved beyond all doubt to be more stupid than himself. Just a theory but it would explain a lot.

Seriously, I would like to add my voice to the support that the AOA has already received. Don't underestimate the enemy but please don't under estimate yourselves. The damage has already been done by inept management. Further inaction merely covers up their failures.

Good luck guys.

Kaptin M
3rd Jul 2001, 17:54
This action commenced today [Tue., July 3rd], and I want to again wish Cathay pilots every success in overcoming an unimaginative, soon-to-be-replaced, unpopular manager, and his couple of sidekicks.

Whiskery, my OLD friend, I am absolutely, entirely, 110% behind the pilots employed by Cathay and fully appreciate of their situation - I have experienced several employers since the "heady days" of 1989, and actually see little (if any) difference in the tactics used by so-called management who believe that they need to justify their positions by a confrontation with their staff. (The book "Confessions of a union buster" by Marty Jay Levitt, should be compulsory reading for ALL pilots)
As pilots are (in their opinion) "high profile", we have become the target of these pathetic stunts, which they feel will justify their obscene salaries, IF SUCCESSFUL, regardless of cost to the company and shareholders!

Negotiation NOT confrontation, made the airlines the great money spinners for ALL involved during the 70's and 80's! The airlines that have engaged in aggressive, confrontationist attacks on their pilots have ended up as R.I.P's.
Is this what Cathay shareholders and passengers want from their investments?

[This message has been edited by Kaptin M (edited 03 July 2001).]

4th Jul 2001, 04:23
SCMP Wednesday, July 4, 2001

Pilots put battle plan into action
Cathay flights escape disruption on opening day of union campaign



Cathay Pacific pilots yesterday launched industrial action they say will leave flights plagued by delays, especially those to Europe and North America, although the move had no immediate impact on passengers.
The Aircrew Officers' Association for the first time laid out its battle plan for the protest over pay and conditions, but said it could be days or weeks before the action began to hit flights.

The union said it would maintain the action, and gradually increase it, until pilots had a fair deal. Cathay said it would not give in to the pilots' demands, no matter how disruptive, drawn out and expensive the fight became.

Under the union's "maximum safety" strategy, crew are now conducting repeated safety checks and will no longer arrive for work early to begin reading flight documents.

Instructions to union members, about 1,300 of Cathay's 1,500 pilots, were sent by e-mail early yesterday, ordering an immediate start to the protest.

Cathay said operations were normal yesterday. It conceded bookings had dipped and advised passengers to check the status of flights before heading for the airport.

"It is with great regret that for the first time in its 37-year history, the [union] has been forced into taking action it did not wish to happen," union general secretary John Findlay said.

The "maximum safety" strategy is a 27-page document detailing safety considerations under 12 categories, from arriving at the aircraft to doing paperwork after landing, and more than 100 sub-categories. It quotes extensively from operation manuals.

"While there is no prize for achieving the most points on the day, you will be judged by your peers for your level of contribution to flight safety. How safe can you make the operation today?" the plan says in its introduction.

Cathay's corporate development director, Tony Tyler, said if the union had put as much effort into negotiation as into preparing what he called the "Hong Kong disruption plan", an agreement could have been reached by now - a claim dismissed by Mr Findlay as untrue and "yet another cheap shot by Cathay's PR machine".

Mr Tyler said: "Using [safety] as a blunt club in industrial action undermines the association itself and professional pilots generally."

He said the public would see the strategy as an attempt to disrupt the airline and Hong Kong's tourism industry.

Mr Findlay said pilots would work in strict accordance with Cathay's operation manuals. He said management had "impinged upon safety margins" by relying on pilot goodwill to find time for necessary checks.

Crew would no longer arrive earlier than the required 80 minutes before departure to begin reading flight papers, regardless of the scheduled take-off time.

Long-haul flights would be worst affected, as they involved more pre-flight reading.

In the cockpit, each crew member would carry out safety checks, which would all be checked and rechecked by every pilot on board.

In normal circumstances, Mr Findlay said, procedures could be "abbreviated" safely and crew did much of the required reading in their own time.

"We make no implication whatsoever that Cathay Pacific is not one of the safest airlines in the world. It is," Mr Findlay said. "But ensuring that all pre-flight preparation is carried out and cross-checked meticulously will take longer than before."

Cathay said seven flights had suffered delays yesterday, but none because of the pilots' action. It said at least two more flights would be delayed today.

Mr Tyler said the company was resolute in not giving in, even if the action dragged on for a year, and warned it was watching pilots to ensure they did not "cross the line".

"We're not in a position to be able to accept unreasonable demands which completely erode our competitiveness in the long term," Mr Tyler said.

He said the 80-minute action would not cause delays. The airline has said it has contingency measures to limit disruption.

Week-long talks between the two sides collapsed last week, with each side blaming the other.

Mr Findlay said it could be days or even weeks before flights began to be affected, as many pilots were travelling and would not have seen the union's e-mail. But he said pilots were as firm in their commitment as Cathay.

"Cathay management always walks away from the table. But this time they must understand that the pilots are serious," he said.

Safety first

Under the "maximum-safety" strategy, Cathay pilots plan to:

call in sick if not "physically and mentally fit to fly"

stop arriving early for work

take the maximum allowed time to prepare after being called on to fly if on standby

double up on pre-flight checks, instead of sharing the tasks between pilots

perform pre-flight tasks "precisely and methodically"

cross-check other crew members' actions "thoroughly".

4th Jul 2001, 11:22
Is this a time out, sick out or wuss out by the pilots? I think that the fact that CX shares rose 1.4% yesterday, at the start of the pilots action, says a lot about how the big boys feel about the long term outcome.Lets face it, how much resolve are the 200 or so second officers going to have, when push comes to shove.Back to the bush flying guys n gals.

4th Jul 2001, 12:48
Shady, to-day's close on HKEx. Share code 293, Cathay Pacific Airways stock, down 1.4%.

5th Jul 2001, 15:04
From the BBC:

"Hong Kong's main airline, Cathay Pacific, has chartered 10 aircraft and their crew from Chinese airlines to help counter industrial action by its own pilots.

On Wednesday, more than a third of Cathay's flights were delayed by the protest.

Pilots have for the last three days been turning up later than normal for flights and strictly following pre-takeoff procedures.

Rival Chinese airlines are benefiting from the dispute

The pilots are demanding improved pay and conditions and say they will continue their work-to-rule until the airline makes a reasonable offer.

The chartered planes have come from rival airlines in China, including regional carriers like China Northwest, China Southwest and China Eastern.

Over 70 Cathay Pacific flights have now been affected because of the pilots' protest. On Wednesday, the airline said over a third of all its flights were delayed - some by up to five hours.

Hong Kong's deputy leader, Donald Tsang, has said that the industrial action might harm Hong Kong's status as a regional aviation hub as well as its tourism and transport industries. But, he said, the government had no plans to intervene.

Talks brokered by Hong Kong's Labour Department broke down last week and neither side looks ready to return to the negotiating table.

Cathay Pacific's decision to hire new aircraft may keep up a full schedule of flights, but some of its passengers may not be happy to be transferred from one of Asia's largest airlines to a smaller Chinese carriers."

5th Jul 2001, 16:21
Cathay shares dropped a further 0.943% to-day.

Kaptin M
5th Jul 2001, 17:22
If Turnbull and Tyler realise their "dream", Cathay shares will go from Blue stock investments to speculative gamble classification trash in the next 2-3 weeks, if this dispute festers and erupts, as it promises to do.

The chartering of outside aircraft and crews will rapidly deplete Cathay Pacific's "war chest", which should have been EXTRA DIVIDENDS for the investors who believed Cathay Management were in the airline business of making money, and not squandering it on egotistical squabbles with their uppermost professional group with whom they have - until recently - had an amicable working relationship that handsomely rewarded the shareholders and Company alike.

IF current Cathay management have determined (as it would appear) that Cathay Pacific is to become just another "K-Mart Asian airline", they (CX Management) would have been held to have been fairer to the shareholders by advising them in advance, rather than dropping a bombshell that will likely cost not insignificant losses at an inopportune time.

5th Jul 2001, 20:12
Latest reports from Hong Kong: three pilots were sacked today -- one of them an AOA Committee member.

I think more than Typhoon Utor is going to hit Hong Kong tomorrow ...

The Resistance
5th Jul 2001, 21:38
By this malicious action (which will be overturned), CX management have ENSURED a response from us that will result in the closure of the airline. The bedrock stance of the AOA is this: NO SETTLEMENT WILL BE AGREED TO UNTIL A-L-L OFFICERS TERMINATED ARE REINSTATED WITH FULL BACK PAY. There is not the SLIGHTEST chance that we will settle on ANY terms until this is done. There is NO COMPROMISE on this.

5th Jul 2001, 22:07
That's awful.......I wonder what sort of mentality this "management" has? Unbelievable!

They'll be sorry tomorrow morning! Even they must see that this sort of thing is only going to compound the problem........no chance of easing the situation at all!

However, if the pilots involoved did cross the mark, then the company is well within their rights to sack them. Having said that, it would have been a far better idea, if the matter was a trivial one, for the "management" to let the issue pass as a good-will gesture.

Absolutely unbelievably and incredibly stupid "management"! I hope they rot in hell (along with a ruined company).

5th Jul 2001, 22:20
Very well said Resistance. I am very pleased to see that CX is not going to give way one little inch here! Keep up the sturggle, and it will be a struggle, and you will succeed! :)

6th Jul 2001, 00:12
Wonder if FL390 is waiting for an interview at CX.....hoping guys will quit? OR, be sacked. Has been tried before by others (at other companies), with NO success. Beware of "friends" bearing gifts.

6th Jul 2001, 01:35
Well, in answer to your question 411A, I am not waiting foran interview with CX at all. I know a pilot that does work fo them.

I would love to go to an interview with CX, however, I migh need to complete my education first!:P

Perhaps you could answer me this 411A.......why would I want anyone, not just pilots, but anyone in the world to get sacked? Why would I want someone to lose a job that they absolutely love, and are willing to put themselves up against complete arrogant stuck up tossers that couldn't give a damn about them or their lives???? Why would I want someone to lose their job because of some ignorant management after many, many years of hard work getting to where they are?

I am EXTREMELY insulted by your remark that suggests that I would like someone to lose their job (through resignation or sacking) just so that I could become a pilot! When I have completed my education, I will work my hardest to make sure that I become a pilot through my own successes and not because someone has been sacked. I don't care how long it takes, but I will become a pilot through my own determination and decency rather than putting someone else out of a job! I suppose, of course, that you are at the front of the queue when it comes to stabbing others in the back just to get their job.

What I say in my posts to the Cathay pilots I sincerely mean. I can see, through some of the posts here at PPrune, what they are going through. How would you like to be in their situation?

I suppose, though that youare the perfect angel bearing gifts that would blow up in your face. I really, really wish you would just go away and crawl back under your stone..........please?

Kaptin M
6th Jul 2001, 02:59
...three pilots were sacked today -- one of them an AOA Committee member.

A "feel-good" move by an obviously desperate management - and so early - in what looks like being an extended campaign. The cracks are appearing already!

It would seem (that) CX's current management are the company's worst enemy - NOT the pilots!

6th Jul 2001, 03:21
Kaptin M

I'm really appalled to hear about the 3 pilots sacked.

What are CX management thinking about? Not a lot like the rest of the worlds airline management I guess.

What has happened to your airline, it seems to have gone from a world leader to a world loser.

We in BA are looking at this and you have our moral support for what it is worth.

To be honest it is about time we all got together and helped each other in the fight against shockingly appalling management. They are ruining our respective companies. I'll happily chuck a few quid into your pot!

We will be next.

Any ideas and e-mail me at [email protected]

The Prisoner
6th Jul 2001, 05:58
From todays SCMP on the mainland Cathay chartered aircraft:

Four of the chartered planes are from China Southwest. A China Southwest plane crashed into a field in February 1999 killing all 61 people on board.

Two of the others are from Air China, which has had two near-misses in the past three years. One near-miss, in 1999, involved a pilot pointing to the wrong place on a map, sending his jumbo jet into the path of a Korean Air plane, which had to change course to avoid it. The same year, an Air China cargo jet took a wrong turning after landing in Chicago, narrowly missing a packed passenger flight that was taking off.

A plane belonging to a third airline, China Eastern, which is lending one aircraft to Cathay, made an emergency landing in Shanghai on Monday when a cockpit window fragmented on the way from Shijiazhuang to Guangzhou.

The other airlines leasing planes to Cathay - China Northwest and China Northern, have a clear safety record over the past three years.

The Prisoner
6th Jul 2001, 06:10
From todays SCMP on the mainland Cathay chartered aircraft:

Four of the chartered planes are from China Southwest. A China Southwest plane crashed into a field in February 1999 killing all 61 people on board.

Two of the others are from Air China, which has had two near-misses in the past three years. One near-miss, in 1999, involved a pilot pointing to the wrong place on a map, sending his jumbo jet into the path of a Korean Air plane, which had to change course to avoid it. The same year, an Air China cargo jet took a wrong turning after landing in Chicago, narrowly missing a packed passenger flight that was taking off.

A plane belonging to a third airline, China Eastern, which is lending one aircraft to Cathay, made an emergency landing in Shanghai on Monday when a cockpit window fragmented on the way from Shijiazhuang to Guangzhou.

The other airlines leasing planes to Cathay - China Northwest and China Northern, have a clear safety record over the past three years.

6th Jul 2001, 06:49
from this mornings South China morning post

Cathay Pacific yesterday sacked a captain and two other pilots in a move the aircrew union believes is aimed at forcing pilots to end their industrial action over pay and rosters.
The captain, a union member with 11 years' service, was sacked for failing to show up for a delay-plagued Los Angeles flight on Tuesday without a satisfactory reason. Cathay spokesman Tony Tyler said he committed a "serious breach" of his employment conditions.

One of the other pilots, a first officer, was also on board the Los Angeles flight. He was a member of the pilots' union committee.

The third pilot, also a first officer, was not a member of the union. All were given three-months' pay in lieu of notice.

The committee member was aboard what was supposed to have been a non-stop flight from Los Angeles to Hong Kong. It detoured to Vancouver and Osaka because crew were due for rest breaks and arrived five hours late.

A pilot source said staff believed Cathay wanted to make an example of him in a bid to convince colleagues to call off their campaign. "A couple of weeks ago, a senior manager said 'what we need to do is sack 20 or 30 of them and the rest will get the message'," the source said. Cathay denies the comments.

Mr Tyler said the company had lost confidence in the union member, while the non-union pilot was sacked because he had not had sufficient rest before reporting for duty.

The Resistance
6th Jul 2001, 07:29
Just to put everybody in the picture: These are some of the comments that are presently shown on our own internal bulletin board regarding one of the individuals (his name is in XXXX for privacy reasons). I believe these will demonstrate what a 'brilliant' move for management this will prove to have been.....!

XXXX, do not despair, do not fear. We will NEVER agree to 'normalise' relations until you are reinstated with full back pay, AND AN APOLOGY. This demonstrates just how venal and cruel our management has become, and it WILL NOT STAND. You have my personal assurance of support, and I will be giving a cheque to the AOA for your account within the next few days. You will be the rallying point of our efforts, and this management will rue the day they decided on this action. No XXXX XXXXXXXX, NO airline. NO compromise.

XXXX XXXXXXX. Decent, kind, honourable, righteous.

Management. None of the above.

XXXX, you have my pledge of moral, financial and emotional support. There will NEVER be a settlement until you recieve reinstatement, back pay and an apology. THAT is now our MAIN ISSUE. I encourage the AOA leadership to now focus SOLELY on the issue of XXXX and the others who have been victimised. NO TALK of rostering, pay or benefits UNTIL these men are back flying. MAKE IT ABSOLUTELY CLEAR TO MANAGEMENT THAT THIS SITUATION WILL RAPIDLY SPIRAL OUT OF CONTROL UNLESS THEY ARE BACK FLYING. It will also demonstrate to the rest of the AOA membership that the security and support of EVERY member is of PARAMOUNT concern, OVER AND ABOVE ALL and ANY other considerations

Dear XXXX and family,
Take heart mate. All of the membership and I are fully with you. You will not be left behind.

It is obvious that Cathay Pacific management do not realise the type of people that they have hired. We are loyal to our families and mates. We are also very loyal to our company if treated with mutual respect.

To the company: There will be no agreement until XXXX is re-instated! We will not be shaken by your pathetic attempts to bully us.

To all of the flight crews: Steady as she goes chaps. Follow your orders exactly. Work together as a single and cohesive unit. Individual and impetous gameplans will not work. Maintain a united front.

Sorry to hear what Snow White and the Seven Dwarves have done to you, but it is a HUGE miscalculation on their part. Enormous. Humungous.

Apparently it took three of management to fire the one of you. Well, The Poison Dwarf, Mr Personality and the Tiny Tot must all be well and truly scared of you.

Anyway, there will of course be no settlement until you are re-instated with back pay, interest, and a public written apology.

See you on the line a few months XXXX

It just goes to show you what cowards these people are. XXXX XXXXXXX is only several months back from a heart attack recovery. You wonder if Ken's intent was to trigger another one....? Needless to say, this despicable act won't go unanswered. You WILL be back flying XXXX....and they will apologise to you publicly. There will be NO settlement, no respite from our action until you and the others are reinstated. This is NON-NEGOTIABLE. Pathetic cowards. No surrender, No compromise.

Kaptin M
6th Jul 2001, 08:10
Indeed a stupid move by CX management, and one that will galvanise the pilot ranks rather than intimidate them. Undoubtedly a thin veneer attempt to try to force the pilot group into taking rash actions.

Stay firm gentleman, you knew it was going to get rough, tough and dirty - but nothing (that) each and ALL of you cannot handle.

Anyone else feel a change of management imminent at CX? Not much of a resume for the next job application!

6th Jul 2001, 08:32
Have to admit, a rather poorly thought out action on the part of CX management. The sledge-hammer technique rarely works.

6th Jul 2001, 13:34
Headline just out:

"Cathay says growing number of pilots reporting sick amid dispute, number of pilot caused flight delays increasing" (Reuters)

Certainly sick of something....


6th Jul 2001, 14:17
Ahhh... I see the wise ones have decided that the beatings will continue until morale improves.

I would have thought any shareholders with even the minutest amount of common sense would be outrtaged by this pathetic move by a middle management that has absolutely no idea how to handle its pilot workforce and will be demanding that the fat cats at the top of this corrupt management structure do something to turn this thing around before they destroy this once great airline.

Why prolong the inevitable guys? All out strike until these pilots are reinstated? Stop pussyfooting around. When push comes to shove you will have to stand firm anyway. In the meantime the fat b@stards who made these idiotic decisions have time and the rest of the Swire Group on their side. Pull the rug out now and see how the corrupt managers will squirm!

Anyone who is in a union and is asked to fly a sub charter for Cathay should refuse and I advise everyone to make sure their union know about it in case their own management try and use ball breaking tactics to force them. There will no doubt be companies such as the other Chinese carriers who will do this work and we all know how democratic the Chinese government are so I would presume that the pilots flying those a/c are as subjugated as the Cathay management would like their pilots to be.

All out now in support of your colleagues. Stop the pussyfooting around and take the inevitable action. The sooner Cathay begin to hurt the sooner the shareholders will demand that the bosses take action against their inept middle management or demand their resignations.

6th Jul 2001, 16:02
These were the reasons for sacking, as outlined in the Hong Kong Mail.

"Director of corporate development Tony Tyler told a press conference last night that the sacking of the three pilots had been "in accordance with their conditions of service and the Hong Kong Employment Ordinance''.

He said one of the pilots was an eight-year veteran and union member who had received a previous warning about his job performance and was terminated after flight CX889 arrived from Vancouver two hours 10 minutes late on Tuesday.

The second pilot, who was not a union member, was fired for not taking enough rest before showing up to fly - a serious breach according to Mr Tyler.

The third pilot, a union member with 11 years' employment was sacked after he failed to report for duty without a "satisfactory reason'' for CX883 from Los Angeles.

Mr Tyler said the firings were "related to the particular actions of particular individuals'' and insisted there was no retaliation over the industrial action that began on Tuesday."

Kaptin M
6th Jul 2001, 16:06
The full article from the Hong Kong Mail is as follows:

"CATHAY Pacific Airways fired three pilots yesterday for employment breaches but insisted it was not trying to intimidate staff involved in a work-to-rule that is disrupting flights.
Meanwhile, it had more than 100 extra aircrew and flight attendants and 10 planes chartered from mainland airlines on stand-by to fill any gaps in its schedule.
Cathay said 55 of 130 flights yesterday suffered delays by 15 minutes to 90 minutes.
But it blamed the approaching Typhoon Utor for disruption of up to 20 inbound flights.
Director of corporate development Tony Tyler told a press conference last night that the sacking of the three pilots had been "in accordance with their conditions of service and the Hong Kong Employment Ordinance''.
He said one of the pilots was an eight-year veteran and union member who had received a previous warning about his job performance and was terminated after flight CX889 arrived from Vancouver two hours 10 minutes late on Tuesday.
The second pilot, who was not a union member, was fired for not taking enough rest before showing up to fly - a serious breach according to Mr Tyler.
The third pilot, a union member with 11 years' employment was sacked after he failed to report for duty without a "satisfactory reason'' for CX883 from Los Angeles.
Mr Tyler said the firings were "related to the particular actions of particular individuals'' and insisted there was no retaliation over the industrial action that began on Tuesday.
The general secretary of the Aircrew Officers' Association, John Findlay, said the firings were predictable and would not intimidate the pilots. "I don't think this will cause anything except a strengthening in the resolve of the members.''
Jaime Gomee, who arrived 3 hours late on CX700 from Karachi via Bangkok, complained that passengers were given a new excuse every 15 minutes.
"First I was told the cargo door was broken. And then I was told that they needed to change the crew. And after that they said they couldn't find something they needed,'' he said.

The 116 pilots, flight attendants and engineers booked into the Airport Regal Hotel are from Air China, China Northwest, China North, China Southwest and China Eastern - all of which have a much poorer safety record than Cathay's A+ grade. At least 306 passengers have lost their lives with the mainland-based airlines and all received an F in Airline Safety Grading published by the United States-based Air Travellers' Association, with an average of 7.24 fatal accidents per million flights since 1970.
The crash of a China Southern Airlines Boeing 737 in Guilin on November 24, 1992 was one of the worst accidents in Chinese civil aviation history. The plane hit a mountain while approaching a runway, killing 141."

6th Jul 2001, 17:13
411A, I am sorry for lowering myself to your level, but I can't hold it in any longer. You really are a complete and utter to$$er.

I have been on the sidelines, reading various pprune postings that have interested me over the years, but I have never replied to any, for I see it as none of my business to get involved in someone else's discussions unless I have a valid and relevant point to put forward.

For a while now, you have instantly hijacked various threads (mostly regarding expat carriers such as CX, SQ and EK) and have never had a positive thing to say. I doubt very much you are who you say you are as:

a.) You spend far too much time at the PC, nearly 1000 posts is surely a bit embarrassing, wouldn't you agree?
b.) Any 'manager' would find it an absolute waste of his time giving out the opinions that you heve over the last year or so.
c.) Your postings are constantly contradictory to previous remarks that you have made.
d.) Your CRM and 'manner' is beyond belief. Thank goodness that I have never had the dubious pleasure to share the flight deck with you.

Any professional pilot with any reputable carrier, in fact any professional regardless of company, would defer from the randomly targeted criticisms that you spew forth, your postings just reek of bitterness; so what loss have you suffered? Fired from one of the above expat companies? Didn't get accepted by any of the above? Somewhere along the line you just haven't made the grade, have you? Maybe you feel threatened by the existence of 'high salaried expat pilots'? Why would they be a threat to you? Come on, talk to me, let me know your thoughts, let us all know what goes on in the mind of 411A, tell us, please.

The Cathay thread that I have now hijacked to lambast you and your opinions, is about people. Good, honest, caring people with integrity and the belief that they are doing the right thing for them and their families. If you cannot hold back from giving your opinion, then please try and keep it constructive, positive and worthwhile, shall we? If you can't then pi$$ off.

I should have done that a long time ago and apologise to all the CX pilots for using their thread to vent my feelings. I feel better now!

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 06 July 2001).]

6th Jul 2001, 17:26
If this Bulletin Board supported sound, Nicole, you would hear a deafening round of applause for you right about now. Not just from participants of this thread, but right across the board!

6th Jul 2001, 19:22
I can not believe people against the cathay crew they need support. The management should understand by now that that is the people in the airline that make the difference. The sacking of crew is going to work against the management. All the best guys.

6th Jul 2001, 19:35
Thanks for your support people. By the way the senior F/O fired was the HKAOA Secretary.
Needless to say any fired union members will be supported by the AOA and no deal will signed until they are reinstated.

[This message has been edited by Herb (edited 06 July 2001).]

Kaptin M
6th Jul 2001, 23:58
...and it won't be any surprise to see the non-HKAOA member appeal the decision and be re-appointed, however to make the sackings appear unbiased, CX needed to include him with the other two.

btw, you'll have to tell us all, later, how you organised "Utor" to join forces with you!

7th Jul 2001, 00:32

7th Jul 2001, 01:14
Sorry to disapponit you with my opinions, but they are just that, my opinions, like it or lump it.
Never fired, always completed contracts and, have gotten along with nearly everyone in aviation/airline flying. Now I am in the process of hiring flight crew for our little operation, and you need not apply. Don't think you would fit in, and anyway probably are not qualified. We look for highly trained professionals, suspect you are...not.
As for the Cathay guys, they have an uphill battle, if the prevail then fine, but suspect that they will have to settle for second best, just like the Comair guys in the USA.
In short, I am entitlted to my opinion, just like you are to yours.
As for CRM, as long as it's done the company way, then no argument. Those that go off on a tangent will be steped on, big time. As I am responsible to the shareholders, it can be NO other way, period.

7th Jul 2001, 02:48
411A. Eight hours! I hardly expected a reply so soon, but then you obviously have far less important things to do than surfing on the Internet all day.

I apologise that my reply was not swifter, but to add 'colour' to my reply, I thought that I'd utilise my evening and learn a few of these UBB codes that give a bit more impact! to the posts. :)

Firstly, it appears that, from the regular replies you receive to your posts, I do not have the sole monopoly on the content of my 'opinions.' Personally, I would have taken the hint quite a while back and just removed myself from the playing field, observing the game from the stands. The fact that you don't do this means to me that you are either incredibly thick-skinned, stupid or just having a laugh at winding us all up. I suspect a combination of the first and last.

Your opinions do not upset me, I have no emotional view regarding them as, you very rightly say, you have every right to them. But as your posts consistently contain negative, provocative and malicious content, I thought that I'd take this opportnity to slap you on the wrist and send you to the back of the class. Your opinions merely prove to me that you are quite dogmatic in your views and would be an aloof, egotistical and opinionated kind of a guy to work for, if indeed you have that sort of responsibility. Certainly I have not read anything positive or objective from you in the months that I have been reading your aggresive, obviously tormented, rantings. I still can't fathom out what has gone wrong for you, why so damn bitter all the time?

As for taking a cheap shot at my profesionalism, I would not throw stones before you find out who your target is. Now this I do find very amusing! You would be very surprised to learn who I am and no, you may not apply for a job in my little operation and yes, I do have that kind of a role. It is so easy to hide behind the cloak of anonymity that this forum affords us but I really do not think it appropriate that I reveal my identity for obvious reasons.

In case you were wondering, I chose Nicole for no other reason than the fact that she was the attractive subject in an advert for the Renault Clio car; We had two at one stage, one for the UK and one at our holiday home. A car that we were quite happy with, so 'Nicole' it is. I'm not going to give too much information away though, you never know who is reading this... ;)

As for applying to you for a job, please explain why a very happy, very well-paid, expatriate for one of the aforementioned companies would want to come and fly for your little operation. Are you having trouble finding the highly skilled professionals? You seem to have been recruiting for an awfully long time; the fact that you are recruiting is often mentioned in your posts. Terrible thing, the human ego. No place for that in the flightdeck.

I am quite happy flying around the world in extremely good equipment with great people and having fun at the same time. We have our 'moments' but overall it's a good team that we have. That's fairly unusual in this industry, isn't it?

Anyway, I am now wasting my time. I only replied out of sheer disgust at your awful manners (again!) and really do not have the time to continue corresponding with someone who has shown himself up, time and time again, to be both immature and incompetent at handling sensible debate.

Radioflyer. thank you for your vote of support, it certainly made me grin. Who is this guy anyway?

As for your profile, I share all of your interests, however I do fall short in two out of three of your requirements for a partner! Safe Flying!

Cathay Pilots. Good Luck with your efforts. Remember that the global airline industry desperately needs experienced and qualified crew, so I am sure that whatever action you take and the subsequent 'punishments' you will not be looking for work for too long. However, there is something that I would like to add.

Please, for the sake of the professional standing of the pilot body, by all means stick to your principles that have got you to this watershed, but remember that too often has a group of pilots adopted a stand that has only resulted in having egg placed firmly on their faces; that reflects on us all.

Keep the emotions in check, act professionally (you will gain respect throughout your action) and above all, keep it safe.

Apart from having a dig at 411A, what's my benefit from this post? It's simple. If you win, we all win. I may have a desk, but I'm still a pilot!

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 06 July 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 06 July 2001).]

US Marine
7th Jul 2001, 04:30
wow, this is really beginning to go the whole distance isn't it. just had to throw a bit of grief towards 411a.....you need a good kicking behind some bike-shed and left to fester for a while.

cathay pacific....you know that the majority of pilots with any ability, typically the more westernised ones, are all behind you. solidarity, brothers, hang in there and force those buggers to re-address the fact that such a capable work force needs reward, direction and a roster that works for a few days at a time, at least.

7th Jul 2001, 06:05
Think you should have retained your "little car" as I suspect it would match your understanding of the problems that affect aircarriers worldwide.
Of course, you are certainly entitled to your opinions, misplaced though they may be.
As for the CX guys, they have to bear the cross of prior misguided management. It is unlikely that they, as a collective group, appreciate this fact as they can only react to the "problems of the day". If I was a shareholder of Cathay, would have sold out a long time ago. The future for them looks dim indeed.
Still, if they keep chipping away, they may have limited success.

7th Jul 2001, 06:45
You've had your rant, Nicole, now I suggest that for your own sake you do as everyone else has been doing and ignore the Sad Old Git. You must know by now that he is never happier than when he has succeeded in baiting someone into another pointless debate with him -- which is understandable, after all it fills in his hours until the nurse comes in with the medication.

On behalf of our guys and gals in the cockpit, thanks for the expressions of support, everyone. They'd thank you themselves, but very few of them come here these days ... :)

7th Jul 2001, 12:08
TOP posting old man, its about time someone put 411 back in his box (again.............).
The man is an airhead.


'Keep the Stress Down'

The Prisoner
7th Jul 2001, 12:12
Sources close to the upper circles rumour a further 23 pilots to be sacked.This is 3rd hand info at the moment, I'm awaiting further details.

7th Jul 2001, 12:18
Couldn't we all campaign for a private forum for 411a (SOG) and the guvnor....I'm sure it would be exclusive....

7th Jul 2001, 12:39
Just been on the South China Morning Post site...Tony Tyler Swireboy in charge of corporate development (whatever that is) says that the pilots 'have a duty of good faith to the company'...hmmmm obviously not a reciprocal duty then old boy?

7th Jul 2001, 12:42
Very addictive this, isn't it!

Thanks chaps for your words of support. I certainly do not have the time to enter into conversation with this 'gentleman.' So I am taking the advice of Radioflyer and ignoring him. But I hope for the sake of his little outfit that either he is a total fraud and the position he holds is in his head or he is actually a very nice chap and great to wrok with, somehow I doubt it though.

Gotta go, work to do.

Tom Tipper
8th Jul 2001, 10:53
Something which would make Mr Tyler angry (and no doubt 411A) - proof that sometimes being other than passive recipients of managerial heavy-handedness may be worthwhile:

From the German Press two days ago:
--------------------------------------Business: Lufthansa pilots accept new contract, union says

The Associated Press

BERLIN (July 6, 2001 1:33 p.m. EDT) - After four months of negotiations and two costly strikes at Europe's second-largest airline, Lufthansa pilots have accepted a pay package that promises a big wage hike, the pilots' union said Friday.

Vereinigung Cockpit, which represents 80 percent of Lufthansa's 4,200 pilots, said 86 percent backed the accord in a postal ballot that began three weeks ago after negotiators reached a deal mediated by former German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher.

Rocking the boat in a country accustomed to moderate compromise between industry and unions, the pilots insisted they needed a big raise to put them on a par with their peers in other countries.

Including performance-related pay, the new contract offers flight captains a rise of almost 30 percent in the first year of the three-year deal.

To push its demands, pilots staged two 24-hour strikes in May, forcing the German flag carrier to cancel hundreds of flights and costing the company more than $23 million.

Already feeling a downturn in the world economy and restrictions on air traffic because of inadequate airport capacity, Lufthansa blamed the expensive package and damaging strikes for forcing it to issue a profit warning.

The company last month scrapped an earlier forecast of a profit of 1 billion euros ($840 million), saying profit should now come in between 700 million euros and 750 million euros ($590 million and $630 million).

Chief Executive Juergen Weber last month said Lufthansa might sue for damages of almost 150 million marks ($64 million) resulting from the strike.

Under the three-year agreement, pilots are guaranteed a 2.8 percent raise in the second year, plus an additional raise based on average pay settlements in other German industries and another boost based on company profits. The third year's salaries will be based only on average pay settlements and profits.

Before the hike, a starting Lufthansa pilot earned a base salary of about $50,000 a year, while a veteran could earn up to $140,000.

Lufthansa is the second-largest passenger airline in Europe behind British Airways and second only to FedEx in cargo delivery. It operates flights to 340 destinations in 90 countries.

Shares in Lufthansa were down about 0.4 percent Friday, following most German stocks lower in late trading in Frankfurt. The stock has dropped about 30 percent this year.

Kaptin M
8th Jul 2001, 12:42
Would someone care to hazard how much Tony Tyler and the other henchman have cost Cathay to date, with the wet leasing of the 10 aircraft, accomodation, transport to and from the hotel to work, AND lost revenue as passengers now make alternative travel arrangements (to CX), simply because Mr Tyler and Co. have made a non-negotiable offer to the pilots' representative body?

Do they (Tyler and Co.) believe that they can continue to plunder Cathay's coffers indefinitely - or at least until the funds have dried up - in their ego-driven battle with the pilots.

For every day that CX management contiues this expensive, wasteful campaign to "teach the pilots a lesson", the value of Cathay's shares must depreciate, as the capital is whittled away.
There seems little doubt that the pilots' submissions could easily have been met (financially), and then some, and that Mr Tyler and his cohorts have another agenda for which they will squander the shareholders' assets to sate their appetite.

Another example of totally unaccountable management!!

8th Jul 2001, 14:43
I hate to think how much money Cathay Pacific has lost as a result of Tyler & Co's blinkered crusade to beat the pilots at any cost. To the cost of this current dispute, add all the lost productivity and wasted management time caused by disputes between management and various employee groups over the last few years - it could easily come in at well over HK$1 billion. Have they actually gained anything by their actions? I doubt it.

What is it about Cathay management? Why must they continually dictate terms to their various staff groups instead of negotiating fair, mutually agreeable contracts? Why are they afraid of engaging their staff in the running of the company? Cathay Pacific desperately needs to expand in order to ensure continued dominance of its HK hub - surely that goal would be so much easier to achieve if all staff were on side and committed to the long term success of the company.

[ 08 July 2001: Message edited by: Spineless ]

8th Jul 2001, 15:18
Well said...in a nutshell. :cool:

Drop and Stop
8th Jul 2001, 15:46
From The South China Morning Post:

Cathay Pacific calls for booking freeze

Analysts believe Cathay Pacific Airways could be preparing to call its pilots' bluff on their industrial action, having informed key travel agent partners to stop selling seats on international flights until at least mid-month.
The airline's move to stop taking new bookings could be a precursor to escalated hostilities in the dispute between the two sides, the analysts said.

A Cathay spokesman said a notice was sent to travel agents earlier this week saying the carrier would no longer accept new bookings for flights to Europe, Canada and the United States. This would be for two weeks from the date of the notice.

A Cathay spokesman said the "triggering point of the decision was Typhoon Utor".

"Our flights were already pretty full for the next two weeks and we imagined that the typhoon would already cause much disruption to our schedule," she said.

"As a precautionary measure, then, we decided to stop taking new bookings on long-haul flights for two weeks until mid-July."

The move, according to the analysts, could be a reaction to fears the pilots might decide to escalate their week-long limited industrial action into a full-scale strike, or could even indicate a possibility that the airline was contemplating a lock-out of its pilots.

Uzo Obi, an analyst at CLSA Global Emerging Markets, said the situation was "worrying" since it seemed neither side was willing to back down from its demands.

Ms Obi said Cathay sources had said the airline had decided to stop selling seats as a preventative measure to minimise the number of disappointed passengers should a strike occur.

"Listening to the amount of vitriol from both sides, it is amazing still how far apart the two sides are," she said.

Even if they were able to come to a speedy resolution, the amount of bad feeling generated could mean a difficult working environment for a long time to come, Ms Obi said.

Cathay called a special meeting on Thursday to update investment analysts about the dispute. An analyst who attended the meeting said airline officials made it clear the company would not cave in to the union's demands, and that it would not return to the bargaining table until the pilots ended their work-to-rule.

"The meeting implied that the pilots had upped the ante with their actions and that Cathay was now prepared to let the situation escalate," said the analyst.

"But it was also made quite clear that management was not going to give in to the pilots' demands."

However, Cathay officials stopped short of saying they expected a full-scale strike, the analyst said.

So far there is no indication that Cathay plans to cancel flights in response to the pilots' industrial action.

The airline said increasing numbers of pilots were reporting sick, indicating that the work-to-rule could be escalating into a "sick-out".

The carrier has leased 10 aircraft on a temporary basis - including one Boeing 777-200, one Boeing 747-400 and two Airbus A340s - in case they are needed either to ease passenger bottlenecks due to the typhoon or, in a worst-case scenario, the pilots begin a full-scale strike.

Analysts said it would be difficult to estimate the cost of an escalated battle between the airline and its pilots.

Andrew Tan, a Singapore-based analyst with ABN Amro, said the two-week strike in 1999 by Cathay pilots cost the airline about HK$35 million per day.

"It will definitely have an impact - directly or indirectly. But 1999 was full-scale action and we have not got that," he said.

The unknown factor is the cost of the 10 wet-leased aircraft and the length of the charters.

8th Jul 2001, 17:55
It's not Tyler & Co. It's Turnbull, Tyler, Barley and Associates. :)

[ 08 July 2001: Message edited by: Cheapo7 ]

9th Jul 2001, 11:51
null"So far there is no indication that Cathay plans to cancel flights in response to the pilots' industrial action"

I thought I saw yesterday that all scheduled flights from Heathrow and Manchester have been canclled for the first part of this week.

9th Jul 2001, 12:50
Latest headlines:

CX says new pay package include pay rises up to 9%
CX says new pay package takes takes effect immediately
CX says has decided to fire 49 pilots


(edited for typo)

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: BackSeatPilot ]

9th Jul 2001, 12:54
Newswatcher, you have been watching the wrong news!
Pilots' Pay Dispute

Information revised and current as of Monday, 9 July 2001

Cathay Pacific and its pilots' union are currently involved in a dispute over pay and benefits. Talks between the two sides have reached an impasse. The union began limited industrial action on 3 July.

Typhoon Utor passed close to Hong Kong on 5 and 6 July causing widespread disruption. Cathay Pacific operated extra flights afterwards to clear the backlog of passengers and restore services as fast as possible. However the plan was hampered because the pilots' union escalated their industrial action through an increase in reported sickness.

As part of its contingency plans, Cathay Pacific has chartered extra aircraft and arranged for other carriers to operate additional flights. On Saturday evening a decision was made to temporarily trim the schedule to enhance network reliability while the dispute continues.

The destinations that have been temporarily suspended are Adelaide, Colombo, Cairns, Delhi, Hanoi*, Karachi, Manchester, New York, Penang and Perth. The direct flights between Taiwan and Osaka and Taiwan and Nagoya have also been temporarily suspended. We will make every effort to contact passengers who are already booked on these flights and transfer them to other carriers.

* Passengers can still travel between Hong Kong and Hanoi on Cathay Pacific's codeshare flights CX790 / 791 / 792 / 793.

We sincerely apologise to our passengers for any inconvenience which they have suffered as a result of the AOA's industrial action. We hope to resolve this situation as soon as possible

9th Jul 2001, 12:58
From Bloomberg:

Cathay Pacific Fires 49 Pilots, to Introduce New Pay Package

Hong Kong, July 9 (Bloomberg) -- Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd.
fired 49 pilots after a week of flight disruptions by union members and will introduce a new pay package to all pilots with immediate effect.
"We have identified those (pilots), we feel, cannot be relied upon to act in the best interest of the company in the future,'' said Tony Tyler, Cathay's director of corporate development at a press meeting. "We have essentially lost confidence in those employees who have been terminated.''
Cathay said 23 of the fired pilots are captains and 26 are first officers.
The new contracts include pay increases of as much as 9 percent, higher housing, maternity and education benefits and improvements in work scheduling practices.
"This package is not quite as generous as the proposal we made to the union leadership at the end of June,'' Tyler said.
"This is because, frankly, there is less money available as a result of the damage done to the company by the union's industrial action.''
Shares of Asia's fifth-biggest carrier fell for a third day as Cathay cancelled 39 of its 122 flights today. Pilots followed a union request to abide strictly by their contracts, including turning up no earlier than 80 minutes before takeoff.


9th Jul 2001, 13:18
Hi Hotdog, the italics were from Drop and Stop's earlier message, from "South China Morning Post". Heathrow appeared in another list over the weekend, now amended!

From today's SCMP - "The Government has no plans to impose a cooling-off period in the Cathay Pacific industrial dispute at this stage, Executive Councillor Tam Yiu-chung said yesterday.

"It[The current situation] is not bad enough to warrant the imposition of a cooling-off period," said Mr Tam, who is also a Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong legislator. "The Government rarely imposes such cooling-off periods to resolve industrial disputes," he said.

Under the Labour Relations Ordinance, the Chief Executive and Executive Council can order a cooling-off period if the industrial action causes an interruption to the supply of goods and provision of services which might be "gravely injurious to the economy" or "seriously affect the livelihood of a substantial number of persons".

Mr Tam hoped the Labour Department could arrange for Cathay Pacific management and pilots to return to negotiations. He warned that both sides would suffer if the row continued.

Meanwhile, chairwoman of the Hong Kong Tourism Board Selina Chow Liang Shuk-yee told RTHK's City Forum the incident was a commercial dispute in which the Government should not get involved.

She said it was hard to estimate the loss to the tourism industry but said the damage to Hong Kong would be great if the situation continued."

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: newswatcher ]

9th Jul 2001, 17:18
Confirmed on Hong Kong news reports tonight: 49 additional pilots terminated, bringing the total up to 52. Fifty-two! :eek:

9th Jul 2001, 19:39
SCMP Monday Public Opinion Poll

Should Cathay Pacific's management agree to its pilots' demands?

Answer Result Per cent

1. Yes. Anything to avert flight chaos 57.2%
2. Should give way on pay, but not rosters 12.6%
3. Should give way on rosters, but not pay 13.4%
4. Not at all 16.8%

9th Jul 2001, 21:25
3rdgenTopGun just wait until you work your way up and get a real job that gives you a lifestyle commensurate with your responsibilities and earning potential and then see it eroded by petty managers who have no real idea about industrial relations and want to make a name for themselves. Also, when you have found your life becoming increasingly disrupted through inefficient rostering and constant jet lag then you may begin to have some tiny idea of what is at stake here.

Until then why not take your whingeing and moaning and shove it up the 'outback'. If you want to join the big boys then at least get your facts right. You are either a cx management wind-up merchant or a 'kin spotty faced wannabe student Ozmate pilot with a chip on his shoulder!

9th Jul 2001, 21:30
It's all relevent to where you're at, you see, cos there are people out there who think your salary is obscene, as much as you think CX's may be.
I don't work for CX but I think it's about, amongst other things, the fact that they pulled the reins in when times were hard, and they would like to see their fair share of the loot they helped the company make over and above that required to get through the hard times.
Have I over simplified it or got it just plain wrong? :rolleyes:

9th Jul 2001, 21:35
It wasn't clear but that message was for the 3rdGentopgun guy.

Chimbu chuckles
9th Jul 2001, 21:56
Tug he sounds like a wannabe to me....still in love with it all and can see no downside...I was like that once....still love my job but!!
Good luck CX guys...some of you are mates from previous airlines and I wish you well.

One of two things will happen now that they have started sacking people,

1/. Increased solidarity and victory or
2/. A complete cave and misery for all who follow.

I sincerely hope it is the former.


9th Jul 2001, 21:56
Well said OzDude! :D

9th Jul 2001, 21:58
Errrm guys.....52 pilots have just been SACKED during an industrial dispute, if this 3rd gen topgun tosser hasn't noticed this then just ignore the one prop wannabee and keepyour eyes on the ball. The 52 include guys on leave, who have had nothing to do with the dispute, and is CX's way of reducing costs by sacking the most senior. If you don't think this will send a message to YOUR management, think again. Thnis affects all of us!!! (including ex ARAF pukes!) :mad:

9th Jul 2001, 22:33
This dispute has gone way beyond negotiation over pay and conditions. There cannot be any discussion until those 52 pilots are re-instated. Had this happened in UK then I suspect that all pilots in the company would have downed tools immediately and the company would be on its knees within days. sadly Hong Kong's labour laws prevent all out strike. However pressure must be increased by any possible means.

CX you have the support of every reasonable and responsible pilot in the free world. Keep up the fight and get those pilots their jobs back - next time it could be you receiving a DHL letter!

Good luck and best wishes.

lets go nads
9th Jul 2001, 23:44
MMMMMM!!! XSIMBA i do not think you will see pilots in the uk airlines putting down their tools if they are not happy with pay negotiations OR pilots being sacked, considering the PI** poor pay deals that most BALPA C/Cs were more than happy to accept as being GREAT!!This year. I think we we over estimate what BALPA and its members are prepared to do!!! Just a hunch.

10th Jul 2001, 09:31
Whenever anyone mentions BALPA I can't but help think of this:
http://www.stone-dead.asn.au/c rosslinks/tv-series/sketches/fc-16/flying-lessons.html (http://www.stone-dead.asn.au/crosslinks/tv-series/sketches/fc-16/flying-lessons.html)

cracks me up everytime....

No disrespect intended, Guvna - honest! :rolleyes:


(edited for typos and trying to get the link to work)

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: BackSeatPilot ]

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

10th Jul 2001, 12:00
nads, I have to agree that our deals were inadequate. However no management would dare to arbitrarily sack a significant number of pilots for being BALPA members. Firstly we have clear laws preventing that kind of action. Secondly, I know of no pilot that would accept his colleagues being treated in such a disgraceful manner.

We in the UK have the option to strike, the CX pilots are prevented by Hong Kong's laws. I doubt BALPA would survive if it did not protect its members after such a provocative strike and take the fullest measures available to them in law.

10th Jul 2001, 17:57
411A: Matey, I think your problem is the green eyed monster ?

Sir Algernon Scruggs
10th Jul 2001, 19:21
The AOA really do need to get their PR machine out and running. This little quote is in a piece in both the New York Times and the International Herald Tribune: Cathay Pacific's rocky relations with its pilots may seem odd, given that they are among the best paid in the world. A senior captain can earn more than $450,000; many are British or Australian expatriates.

Invest in some proper PR and get the misinformed journalists updated on salaries and even more importantly working conditions otherwise you will find yourselves increasingly isolated. The journalists have obviously been fed this cr@p by the Cathay bosses and they love it because it makes 'exciting' reading. We all know that the press never let the truth get in the way of a good story so wise up and give them something to use on your own behalf. War is always dirty.

Skyhawk XP
10th Jul 2001, 19:31
xsimba. The sacked CX crew will not be re-instated and the remaining CX crew know it.

CX have weeded out what they perceive as problem pilots or trouble makers.

The CX announcement reads "we have undertaken a detailed review of the employment history of all our pilots and identified those who, we feel, cannot be relied upon to act in the best interests of the company in the future.

We have, essentially, lost interest in those employees who have been terminated and decided that their continued employment with the company is no longer in the best interests of the company as a whole."

Unfortunately, the terminated employees may have difficulty in securing alternative employment with the above reference.

Kaptin M
10th Jul 2001, 19:56
You mean something along the lines of:
"Cathay pilots exploited as Asian Underdogs!"

Whilst American and European employed pilots enjoy conditions that suitably reward their long struggle to achieve that elusive and highly responsible position of 'caretaker of aircraft and contents', Asian pilots - and in particular, Cathay Pacific pilots - are denied recognition of this same responsibility.

Cathay management have refused to acknowledge (that) their pilots' precious (human) "cargo" is worth the same financial value as western countries' passengers, by attempting to force that airline's (Cathay's) cockpit crew to accept lesser conditions than their American and European counterparts!

Is a Chinese passenger's airfare, life, and right to technical expertise, any less than a citizen of a non-Asian country?

Shall I continue...or would you gents like to enlist some PROFESSIONAL help??

10th Jul 2001, 20:12
On PR:

Damien Grammaticus, BBC World Service reporter from HK, in his 60 second piece this evening spent 59 seconds on the company's viewpoint, including HK Government's support for it and nil on AOA's line except that pilots' action is in support of better pay and conditions. And of course most union action is. YES, AOA have to get their points across. To the public and to HK Govt - we hear Tung chihuahua referring to the "pilots' strike" and asking them to rethink.
Over to you AOA.

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: expressman ]

10th Jul 2001, 22:16
The situation at Cathay is somewhat alarming, in light of what happened at Varig back in the late 80s, and the decimation in Australia in the early 90s.52 pilots sacked because their continued employment would not be in the interest of the company...well, what can one say...Let REASON prevail...

lets go nads
10th Jul 2001, 22:44
Rather interesting morsel of info has come my way via different channels. If someone in the real world of the fragrant harbour set knows about this please come forward. Have heard that some of the captains were ex employees of my airline and were some of the skippers given the boot!! for the simple reason WAIT FOR IT!! they have been with CX for less than (just short of) 15 years and their provident fund is about to escalate!! WOW defies belief if this is true. What about the FOs??

11th Jul 2001, 00:21
One new thing that I have learnt so far from this "Limited Industrial Action" is the nick name for the Hong Kong Chief Executive, "Tung Chee Wah". Whoever came up with the name "Tung Chihuahua" deserves a pat on the back. :D

the looka
11th Jul 2001, 01:04
Kaptain M, Thank you for your support. I don't think it will be to far in the future that you will be congratulating us on having the 51 reasons for our resolve reinstated, a new package and a new management.
411a I feel sorry for the FE with aprox 30 years service to cathay and still feels the need to get involved in a start up with you. And another thing it might pay to remember that as management you are not solely responsible to the share holder. You have a responsibliy to your most important assets, your employees as well.