Low cost GPS units (yes, GPS again, yawn...)

[Hireandhire]

Question for all you technical experts here in PPruneland.
Retail park outlets are now offering colour moving map gps for the car from £79.00 upwards eg navman f20 at £120
They seem to have selectable 2d or 3d map view, an installed roads database, and loads of other stuff I would want to switch off like voice command and touch screen. And they DO have a memory card slot.
So my question is, can it be made to read CAA charts from the memory card, (what's involved in scanning them in?) and what else would stop me using a unit in this way?
Second question is more plaintive - why are handheld satnavs for cars getting so cheap when aviation GPS is getting dearer? even the £=$ advantage has disappeared!
regards
HnH

[IO540]

In short, the answer is no and no :)

Almost all maps in Europe are tightly controlled commercially, and the CAA charts - like all other aviation charts - are very expensive in electronic form.

You can get moving map GPSs which run those charts but all are pricey.

The road nav units are something else - they use data which is several years out of date, and the older it is the cheaper it is. They also sell in big volumes.

Yes it's frustrating to see all the technology in the shops and compare it with the utter cr*p methods which most people use to navigate in the air.

You can get decent nav kit; you can even get the plane to fly itself along the entire route, but it will cost you a packet.

If you are specifically after running the CAA charts as a moving map, the following are the options I know of:

1) Any PDA (pocket/pc) or a Windoze tablet computer, running Memory Map (http://www.memory-map.co.uk/) - MM sell the CAA charts at about £150 for the whole UK

2) A hardware product called Flymap (http://www.flymap.co.uk/)- this will also run the Jeppesen Raster Charts which cover most of Europe - the pricing is stiff if you want the coverage.

3) Any PDA (pocket/pc) or a Windoze tablet computer, running Oziexplorer (http://www.oziexplorer.com). OE is a generic moving map program which will run any map you can get in any common digital format and which you can calibrate (georeference). None of the aviation maps are officially available in the generic graphics formats, but there are "wayz"... and of course you can scan in your own printed charts (which is a real PITA).

This was discussed here recently. Do a search on Memory Map, Jeppesen Flitemap, raster charts, etc.

One quick comment is that the CAA charts are not really usable on a small screen. Running them on a 4" PDA is like viewing the printed chart through binoculars. You need at least a 7" or 8" diagonal screen to see enough of the chart to see airspace labels etc.

[adverse-bump]

www.pocketfms.com (http://www.pocketfms.com)

[Fuji Abound]

www.pocketfms.com

Yes, but I think you have missed the point.

PFMS is a great piece of software and it does run on PDAs, but PDAs have their limitations - small screens, and instability.

PFMS is crying out for a decent sunlight readable platform on which to operate - very few tablets offer sun light readable lcds and those that do are expensive.

The next generation of sunlight readable lcds for cars are the perfect size but whats needed is an open architect platform on which to run software such as PFMS - unfortunately it does not exist at the moment.

[Hireandhire]

Thanks for taking the time guys
I kind of suspected that there would be no "free lunch" here, but we live in hope.
Since I'm essentially a chart & wristwatch VFR navigator, the GPS idea is a backup (no, really!) and there wouldn't be a good return on investing in a serious bit of pilot-specific kit. Why - we might be talking the price of 24 hours flying here at our marginal wet rate of £25/h.
My pre-millenium magellan non-map does basic routes if I can be a**ed to programme it beforehand, but at least it gives me a distance, bearing and groundspeed.
The PDA method (even if display quality was acceptable) is a non starter as I already have one for work (with all it's useful connectivity removed for security reasons) and I'm blowed if i'm buying another one just to fly with.
Thanks anyway - I'll just have to wait until market forces assert themselves.
Good thing I'm a "late majority adopter" in the old jargon of consumer segmentation.
regards
HnH

[Rod1]

The answer is yes and yes. The Flyangel is a car unit which does exactly what you want, but it is £600 ish..

Rod1

[1d2d3d4d]

Just bought a Garmin 196, brand new, from an aviation retailer £339.00. I thought that was reasonable. ;)

Regards Chris

[Sierra_Golf]

Here´s another who just bought a Garmin 196, never having used a GPS unit before in my life. I think it´s brilliant, and am 100% satisfied (so far) with it.
Very user friendly, and lots of easy to access info, not only the usual you expect from a "normal" GPS unit, but also all kinds of aviation specific info (including airspace warnings when you are heading into any sort of controled airspace, dangerous areas, forbiden areas, etc...radio navigation frequencies, all airports and airfields, etc...)

I paid more than the £339 mentioned (that´s a great price!), but still found it an excelent buy.

[Hireandhire]

Thanks for the reccomendation Sierra and Chris.

Looks like a great unit and I'm glad you're happy with the 196.

It's a bargain at £339, and I could probably rationalise that, but it's still a chunk of money for grayscale display, compared with the colour in-car derived units.

Decisions Decisions!

regards
HnH

[Rod1]

I have a 196, and the display is much more readable in the aircraft than some of the colour aviation units. The log s/w and the ability to link to Navbox is also very good. The Flymap is better, but at £650 + it would have to be.

Rod1

[Joe le Taxi]

I never cease to be amazed at the sums people are prepared to spend on moving maps. All you need is

A PDA, linked in some way to a GPS (cable, bluetooth, SD card insert, integral). A modern 3.5" backlit screen is perfectly readable for me, once it has been oriented away from reflections.

Software (I use Seeyou [£50?] which is designed for gliding but is easily configured for powered). The really skint could use XCSoar which is free.

Free airspace files from http://soaringweb.org/SUA.

- job done, for peanuts.

[Hireandhire]

Joe thanks.
So help me out here - what's an appropriate make/model of PDA at minimum cost to do the job?
I can google GPS mice etc it's the subtle PDA variations/ operating systems/ that are a mystery.

Could you recommend a winning hardware combo (available in the uk)?

regards
HnH

[Joe le Taxi]

You're asking the wrong guy about technical stuff. I got a Compaq Ipaq 3800, real old on ebay £25. Wiring I did myself with bits around the house (see http://webadventures.com.au/ipaq_cambr.html for guide) but severn valley sailplanes do cables and mounts http://www.svsp.co.uk/Shop%20Website/pages/PDA_GPS_Cables.htm

I bodged up a mount from an old hanggliding vario mount.

I had seeyou software anyway (runs fine on PDAwin or whatever its called), so total spend £25 plus £5 for a ciggie charger from Honkers.

Choosing now, I would get a HP iPAQ rx5935, with integrated GPS.

[Hireandhire]

Thanks Joe

Looks impressively technical to me. I'll haunt ebay for a bit and see whats on.

The ASUS looks good too.


(and TopCat - thanks for the pm)


regards
HnH

[don't_ask_me]

Hi everyone!

I've been searching around and found this:

http://approach-systems.com (http://approach-systems.com/)

They seem to have quite a good package. Do any pruners use it? If so, how good is it?

Just wondering:p,
don't_ask

(Posted this before and it didn't work)

[Sam Rutherford]

loads of good aviation gps on ebay. Add GBP20 or so to upgrade the data and you are cheaply 'good to go'.

Sam.

[172driver]

Garmin 96 (or 96c if you must have color). Little gem, comes with PC software to program your routes and plot your tracks and a sort of electronic logbook. Updateable and, if you so wish, can take road navigation sw as well (although I think you cannot have both on there at any one time). Cost approx GBP 230 / 280 for color. Only think I'd add is the external antenna, makes a huge difference in satellite reception.

[JP1]

H&H

I have done just exactly what you are after and it cost me £20. Literally in the last few weeks.

Some of the comments above are not correct or at least aimed at someone who wishes to do a lot more with a GPS.

I have just passed my PPL and want to continue to use DD with map and compass and have a GPS as a backup.

I use a Orange m1000 PDA (O2 XDA II is the same). This is a QVGA 3.5 inch screen it is perfectly usable in the sunlight. I already had the Tom Tom software with this and hence a bluetooth GPS receiver also.

So all I have done is installed Memory Map software which cost £20 including the digitized CAA half mil Southern Chart. I can certainly recommend it for use as a moving map with the CAA chart.

The beauty is you are using the paper chart as the main navigation aid. The PDA GPS plot shows you where you are exactly in relation to the chart. Screen size and resolution is not a problem.

You can pick up the the PDA above for £20~£30 on ebay and probably a little less for the GPS. I think the latter models of the PDA come with built in GPS.

Battery life of the GPS is well over 6 hours. Battery life of the PDA about 4 or 5.

Here's a screen shot of the PDA. Quality in real life is better

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn277/navdra/iow.jpg


Edit,

The pic above is the exact real world size of the PDA screen. (it's my PDA taken with my digital camera )

[Mike Cross]

Another Garmin 196 user.

I have enough trouble hitting the right bits of the screen on a TomTom in the car, I hate to think how I'd get on jabbing a PDA screen.

My method
Draw the route on NavBox ProPlan, upload it to the 196. Get the weather and NOTAM, print the PLOG & freqs from ProPlan having put the wind vector in.

Go flying:O

I have the update subscription for ProPlan which ensures I know where the airspace is when I draw the route. Once the route's in the GPS I can pull it up and use it whenever I want.

I also have Cub's VFR waypoints (http://www.pipercub.flyer.co.uk/id45.htm). Loaded into the GPS. Thanks Cub!

I prefer to fly with a track up display. Most GPS displays put you a third of the way up from the bottom so your greatest visibility range is in the upward direction, not so good if you're heading downwards. Being a bear of very little brain I prefer to have all of the wording on the display the right way up, even if I'm heading south, and I like to turn left if the little aeroplane is to the right of the line I want rather than having to turn the whole thing round in my head. The CDI and the rest of the data that's available on the aviation GPS is also useful. Also useful is the way the amount of data displayed increases when you zoom in and decreases when you zoom out.

Would you rate TomTom highly if it had the wording upside down when you drove south or if your direction of travel was contantly changing on the map because you were stuck with a north-up display?

[Mariner9]

Real navigators fly north-up Mike := ;)

[Mike Cross]

Real navigators fly north-up Mike

I refer m'learned friend to my previous statement that I am a bear of very little brain.:E

It's presumably for people like me that CDI's and Flight Directors were invented and why the OBS knob exists.

That said, I always use the map North Up if map-reading in a car.

[TractorBoy]

Has anyone had a look at the new Garmin 495 ? It's about £150 quid cheaper than the 496 - it has the City Navigator stuff removed.

Edit : admittedly, its not particularily low cost.....

[flybymike]

Would be interested to hear any reviews on the new Garmin 495 although I suspect it is too new for there to be any yet.

The info spec states that the unit depicts "private airports" (whatever they are.) Given that much of the spec detail is obviously a reprint of the American database, I am not sure whether this means licensed/unlicensed UK airfields or whether it just means US private sites? or whether VRPs are depicted?

[tonyaddison]

anyone tried using efis on their pda? i have and use memory map but efis has more neat features but crap maps. anyone know of any pda sofware that will give you an instrument page with working hsi etc?

[Mike Cross]

FBM

If you want private airfields, VRP's etc then look at Cub's databases linked to in my earlier post. Easily uploaded into your GPS (or mine anyway:))

[Henry Hallam]

I tried APIC/EFIS on an iPaq a couple of years ago. It was terrible, crashing all the time, the UK database was rubbish, a big waste of time and money. It might have improved since then, I have no idea.

[Runwaypimp]

I have a Garmin 96C. I noticed theres no obstacle data base for the UK. I take it the advertised Obstacles are just for the US database?

Love the 96C though. Good battery life with Duracell Ultras. Very easy to use.

[Avionista]

Hireandhire:

To get back to your original question, the best low-cost GPS system available to aviators on a budget, at the moment, is unquestionably PocketFMS. It provides constantly updated nav data, downloadable MET data, flightplan/PLOG production, weight & balance calculations, automatic flightplan to nearest suitable airfields when a diversion becomes necessary, popup warnings of approaching controlled airspace, danger areas, obstacles, etc, output to control an autopilot and many other features. The functionality provided by PocketFMS is almost too much for the average weekend flyer, but then you only have to use the bits you need.

I have used it now for over two years and have not experienced any problems with PocketFMS in the air. Yes, all LCD displays can be difficult to read in bright sunlight, regardless of whether or not that device happens to be a PDA. My PDA is on a mount attached to the yoke and I can easily shade it with my hand when I need to look at it. As for hardware reliability, I have not experienced any hardware problems yet. But, just in case, I carry a spare PDA and a spare bluetooth GPS mouse in my flightbag which can be brought into operation should the need arise. Periodically, I mark my position (from the GPS) and time on my chart as a further insurance against becoming 'unsure of my position'.

Before using PocketFMS in the air, I used it for months in my car to gain confidence in the product and my ability to operate it properly. It takes some time to learn how to operate the software but now I never fly without it.

Previously, I used a Skyforce II Gps system but am now a convinced convert to PocketFMS.

[Milt]

Cheaper GPS Nav systems concentrate on road nav for earthbounds.
Aviators should avoid them like the plague unless you can enter your own succession of waypoints in lat and long.

[tmmorris]

Actually my very cheap one doesn't even do that! All waypoint entry is manual.

It's for extreme emergency airborne use only; mostly for leading groups of cadets in the Welsh mountains (it stays in the bag, switched off, but in case of emergency I can then give a very accurate grid ref for the casevac!)

Tim

[bigfoot01]

I alawys carry a garmin 60cx. The x means it has the latest nema chipset, which is very sensitive and locks really quickly. I use Memory map to program extra way points and my route and it has a very hand course line deviator, which tells you how far off you are a line between two way points, but becareful you know exactly how to read this. In the beginning I didn't and I got into a bit of muddle! It always points along the line you are supposed to be travelling, not towards the next way point. It is a cracking piece of kit. I have never had an issue with way points uploaded from memory map either. I don't know why they don't put this chipset in the Garmin 96c, I would buy one of them then! I also fly with the 296, cos it's easy, but the 60cx is always in my bag. There are cheaper one on the x ranges, but they tend not to have the course deviation. You have to then learn how to use it, essentially like an ADF, which can be a bit harder work!

[malcolmf]

The Pocket FMS guys are working on an "install to SD card" option that will let it run on units like the Garmin nuvi. When I zoom right out on my nuvi you get rather a good picture of towns and rivers etc which could be used to cross check your position against the traditional charts.
Edited to add: From the pocket FMS site:
The following PND's will never run PocketFMS because they are not based on the Windows CE operating system:

TomTom
Garmin
The following 4.3" PND's have been successfully tested to run PocketFMS:
HP 310/312/314 Travel Companion
Mio C320/C520
Medion 465/475

The following PND's are currently under test:
NavMan C50

[LH2]

Real navigators fly north-up

Magnetic, True, Astronomical, Grid, or Local?

:E