Red Arrows-Cosford TRA Infingements

[Bramble 44]

Reds had to halt their show today half way through and return to Shawbury due to 2 separate TRA infringements by Microlights.
I hope the errant pilots are prosecuted.

[Mr Point]

Apparently they are the new Synchro Pair! :E

[The Boy Lard]

I was there, the Reds as always were superb, shame we only got half of their flat display

I'm all for sharing the skies with all forms of aviation but I hope the pilot/s are on the receiving end of a good stern talking to!

[Max Contingency]

Bramble. You have come to the wrong forum if you are looking for sympathy for the Red Arrows here. :oh:

As for your comment I hope the errant pilots are prosecuted I guess that tell us that you are not a pilot then. :confused: I don't think there is a pilot out there (mil or civ) who wouldn't have spent a long time in jail if they were prosecuted every time they made a mistake :=

[Bob Viking]

Max,
Since when have we hated the Reds all of a sudden?!
Dweeb.
BV:rolleyes:

[The Gorilla]

No not all of a sudden......

Forever.......

:mad:

[Fluffy Bunny]

Since when have we hated the Reds all of a sudden?!


Well said chap.
However, someone who doesn't check and take heed of notams before commiting acts of aviation should be strung up by their short and curlies.

[brit bus driver]

Actually, it's an RA(T) these days.....;)

Taxi for Driver!!

:8

[Talking Radalt]

You have come to the wrong forum if you are looking for sympathy for the Red Arrows here
I don't think anyone's looking for sympathy, merely offering a professional voice of mild concern that their safety was compromised by someone else's negligence. :sad:

I don't think there is a pilot out there (mil or civ) who wouldn't have spent a long time in jail if they were prosecuted every time they made a mistake
There are mistakes, and then there's forcing the World's best aerobatic display team to abort their routine half way through in front of what's reported as a 70,000 strong crowd. :=

[HEDP]

Maybe the RAF's best fixed wing aerobatic display team would be a more apt description...............

[vecvechookattack]

Have to agree there. The Red Arrows are certainly the UK's best team...but in the world? Hmmmmm

Was an AIP SUP or NOTAM issued for the TRA ?

If not then maybe some Ops clerk is feeling a little red faced at the moment.

[Tiger_mate]

A Red Arrows display with almost no coloured smoke was rubbish.

....and the pwered hang glider & microlight pilots deserve to loose their licence, as there is no-way that any aviator in the west midlands would not have known that it was the cosford air day.

I bet they were from Shifnall, those who complain with regular occurance about military not givving their 'field' a wide enough berth. Plonkers.

[ShyTorque]

It WAS NOTAM'd. 6nm, 8300 ft.

[Pontius Navigator]

Maybe Cosford should have had one of those "show what the RAF can do displays"

Sky Garudian.

Oh no we got rid of them, and the Rapier, along with the SHAR.

[KPax]

It was 8 miles and 8300 ft for the Reds. As the Approach Controller for the display at the time I have only just finished filling in paperwork. Had you seen how close they were on radar then you might appreciate how close we were to a real disaster. If pilots cannot read a warning, or see 9 jets with different coloured smoke coming from them, then maybe they require another medical. Mistakes happen, stupidity shouldnt. Well thats blown my cover.

[BOAC]

Leaving aside the personal grudges/hates/likes/chips on shoulders, this event is a gross breach of aviation safety and I too hope and expect that action be taken against the infringers. To quote KPax Mistakes happen, stupidity shouldnt.

[rogcal]

I'm cautiously stepping into the lion's den with what I hope are words of wisdom.

I've flown for over 30 years in the skies of East Anglia and the East Midlands and have shared the same airspace with most types of military aircraft from Phantoms through to the Typhoon and it's always been a case of "see and be seen".

This method served me well and despite the increasing pressures on airspace, I hope it will continue to work for me and the other pilots who share that airspace with me.

I'll admit that much of what I've learned about flying since gaining my PPL back in the early 70's, has often been by making mistakes and learning from those mistakes as a consequence.

Call it a charmed life or what but I'm sure there's many who made the same mistakes and are now probably playing a harp!

On the point of other pilots making mistakes and as a consequence putting others in danger and or disrupting a display by the Reds or the BBMF, those of them that realise what they've done (whether they get away with it or not) will in all probability, not do it again.

Those that don't realise and are identified, need their competences checking and any shortfalls made good by additional training.

Stiff fines and loss of licence will do nothing to prevent others doing the same in the future (since when have the drink driving laws been an effective deterent?).

Yes, a few may get a wake up call because they hear through the grapevine of someone they know getting clobbered by a big fine but most will not hear anything about it and sublimly carry on flying in a manner that leaves the rest of us exasperated and them in complete ignorance of what is going on around them.

What's the answer? More specific training on what a Notam means in reality and how to interpret the info contained in them. I'd even go as far as suggesting that the air law written paper includes a requirement to access a selection of notams and interpret them successfully if a pass in that paper is to be gained.

OK, so that takes care of the the "new" pilots but what about the old 'uns!

Quite simply, make it a part of any licence revalidation, skills test, bi-annual competency test that the pilot must show how he/she can access notams and successfully interpret them and show how they would use that info during a flight.

In the meantime, I shall keep on reminding those pilots that I come into contact with, of how an airspace bust could result in more than just a hefty fine or loss of licence. Some of them may not thank me for it and many will continue oblivious of what they are doing but if we all did it (military and civvy), at least we will have tried our damndest.

Thanks for allowing me to intrude into your forum but I just wanted you to know that some of us care about how we "unruly" civvy pilots are perceived and are trying to do something about it, in our own way.

I shall now spend the rest of the day sitting out by my strip waiting for the first Tucano of the day to tear through the overhead at ?ft.;)

[D120A]

Not only is it NOTAM'd, there is a Freephone AIS information line on 0500 354 802 with a recorded announcement for the day, detailing all RA(T)s and Red Arrows displays.

The AOPA journal General Aviation this month, talking about the Red Arrow airspace infringement problem, goes on to say:

"It's free, it's easy - try it right now and capture it on your mobile. Call it before you fly, every time you fly. Check the AICs. You can do so online at www.ais.org.uk. Check the NOTAMs, which are also on the AIS website, or you can call the NOTAM office on 0208 745 3451 or 3450. They're available 24 hours a day, round the calendar - and you get to talk to a real human being, rather than listen to a recording. You can check Pre-Flight Aviation Bulletins (PIBs) on the AIS website, and you can get PIBs through the NATS website www.nats.co.uk if the AIS website is unavailable for any reason.

Short of having Red One come round to your house every day and brief you over breakfast, it's hard to see what more can be done. Don't expect sympathy."

I find it hard to believe that anyone would disagree with that.

[sirsaltyhelmet]

Thats my boy, blame the Opsies

[Contacttower]

The Red Arrows are certainly the UK's best team...but in the world? Hmmmmm



Come on, who is better? I know the Hawk isn't quite an F-16 or Hornet but all things considered I think the quality of the displays is unmatched.

[Talking Radalt]

Well, however deluded it may seem, I like to think we're still the best air force in the World so by default it makes the Red's the best aero team in the World.

Second thoughts....nah, we're all rubbish these days and don't let anyone tell you different. :rolleyes:

[anotherthing]

The merits of various display teams aside - what makes the fact that this infringement caused havoc to the Reds display any more henious a crime/mistake than any other infringement?

Apart from the fact the Reds are high profile - nothing.

Yes, this display was Notam'ed and yes it is iuncumbent on pilots to check these. It is also incumbent on pilots to ensure that they are capable of navigating accurately in the conditions in which they are flying. (Too much reliant on electronic aids nowadays).

However, there are hundreds of instances of infringements, a high percentage of them serious, in and around major airports, especially in the south east, that have caused break offs and avoiding action to be taken by passenger jets. These would give me more cause for concern, especially as the likes of Stansted etc are a 24hr operation - so a (poor) excuse of not seeing a Notam indicating activity there does not exist!!

There is a lot of work ongoing with regards to educating the GA community, cries on here to hang, draw and quarter the culprits are not conducive to helping the situation.

Investigate the reasons behind the infringement first, then take the appropriate action. In the past when major airports have been involved and passengers jets been made a bit too uncomfortable, the appropriate action has ranged from a not tas, no biscuits interview with the chief instructor at an airfield, up to loss of licence and court action.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Well, however deluded it may seem, I like to think we're still the best air force in the World so by default it makes the Red's the best aero team in the World.

Second thoughts....nah, we're all rubbish these days and don't let anyone tell you different.


First you think we have the world's best display team, then you rationalise it by saying that it's because you believe our entire Air Force is the best? :ugh:

If you want to see the best team in the world, look south to the Patrouille de France. Admittedly, I have not seen their 2007 show, but they have consistently struck me over the last 10 years as being far better than anyone else - dynamic, flown with finesse, and incorporating elements that no other teams can claim to have an equivalent to.

As for explaining why our Air Force is now a shadow of its former self and not by any means the best in the world, it sounds like you'd prefer it if you were left to keep deluding yourself.

[MINself]

IMHO, there will always be a minority that just do not bother to read NOTAMs and who think it'll never happen to them and no amount of education of the these folk will stop them pottering around the skies with their brains in neutral.

As a quick thinking police said once to an elderly motorist whom he had pulled over for driving overly slowly.

"Ma'am, I'm sure that in your 60 plus years of driving that you have not been involved in an traffic accident however did you happen to notice whether the manner in which you were driving created any behind you?"

A PPL friend of mine once sat in wonder as I explained to him of a web site that these NOTAMs were displayed on and that they effected everyone that flew and it was the pilot's responsibilty to know which of these NOTAMs effected their sortie and NOT ATC :ugh:

Accidents will happen, however isn't it only an accident if those involved are not culpible failing to read NOTAMs is no accident, so yes lets investigate the reason behind this and if found guilty take their licence off them and let the aviation community know that if you %$£" up and are found guilty you should expect to be punished.

MS

[vmv2]

All of you may care to read the Team Leader's comments on the Red Arrows website at:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/teamnews/index.cfm?storyid=1B083304-1143-EC82-2E90899FB0172FAC

[Glass Half Empty]

Quite right - up the arrows thats what I say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Background Noise]

Whatever the personal opinions of one team vs another, this is RA(T) (formerly TRA) airspace. Its not advisory, its a statutory instrument and avoiding it is the law.

[Contacttower]

This is ridiculous though, yes it is true that infingments of one sort or another happen all the time but considering how much attention this gets every year it amazes me that people are still doing it.

To quote Pilot Magazine recently:

Every year without fail, displays by the Red Arrows are disrupted by aircraft flying into TRA around airshows. Will it be you this summer? If so you can expect a pitiless reception from the legal department of the CAA, who point out that it has never been easier to find out where and when the Arrows pop up. You can find out in the NOTAMS, you can find out on the web, you can find out by phone......

.....Short of having Red One come round to your house every day and brief you over breakfast, its hard to see what more can be done. Don't expect sympathy.

[Tourist]

But they are to55ers.

[Talking Radalt]

First you think we have the world's best display team, then you rationalise it by saying that it's because you believe our entire Air Force is the best?
Yeah, like I said, deluded maybe but I thought all this SoA cr@p was about pride in service.
But you're right. We're $h!t compared to even the Bolivian Air Force these days so bollox to self-esteem and hurrah to being w@nk.:hmm:

[Talking Radalt]

If you want to see the best team in the world, look south to the Patrouille de France
Do I sense cheese, white flags and monkies? Reason enough not to give 'em the ":ok:".
Righty ho, I'm off to be deluded again. :8

[Winco]

Irrespective of what peoples personal views are on the Red Arrows, the fact remains that this was an infringement, and it was stupid and wrong.
Finding these things out is the simplest thing in the world, as has been explained before. For anyone to go flying, without checking the absolute basics is crass stupidity, ignorant and dangerous, and IMHO they shouldn't be flying at all.

I wonder how many of those of you on this forum that are 'poo pooing' these 2 incidents would feel the same if the microlight or whatever had hit a passenger aircraft or something else? perhaps causing loss of life? Suddenly it's not just an inconvenience any more is it?

GA is NOT the most popular pastime in the world with many civilians who would like to see it end, but I for one want to see it continue. Incidents like this do nothing for the cause of GA, on the contrary, someone at the CAA will look at it and (hopefullY) act accordingly with the individuals concerned. It would be sad if the actions of a few idiots had a greater impact on the rest of us who fly for pleasure.

Well done to Red 1, he did exactly the right and proper thing, and if it dissapointed many at Cosford, then bad luck - find out who the fool was and send him the bill!

The Winco

[Uncle Ginsters]

there are hundreds of instances of infringements, a high percentage of them serious, in and around major airports, especially in the south east, that have caused break offs and avoiding action to be taken by passenger jets. These would give me more cause for concern, especially as the likes of Stansted etc

The difference is that one ac having to action a break-off or go-around at approach speed is entirely different, and i believe more controlled and safe, than a 9-ship displaying at relatively high speed and energy actioning a 9-ship breakout plan because of some a*se that can't be bothered to check the notams!

And more to the point, how can you miss 9 Red Hawks trailing smoke, or think it's a good idea to be anywhere near them in a microlight? The only supposition must be that these folk were there deliberately for the grandstand view...or that my Gran has more airmanship than these guys flying her Stannah Stairlift :ugh:

*rant off*

Uncle G :ok:

[vecvechookattack]

Totally concur....hang the guilty..ba...ds.....


but thinking about it...... there but for the grace of god go I..... I busted soviet airspace once, back in the days when it was t'USSR..... got chased away by a MIG 21..... scared the poo out of me.... I learnt about navigation from that

[Green Flash]

Come on then, vecvec, lets 'ave the whole nine yards?

[Tiger_mate]

Well done to Red 1, he did exactly the right and proper thing, and if it dissapointed many at Cosford, then bad luck

A family ticket to get into Cosford was £40.

The biggest attraction for the public at any UK airshow is the Red Arrows.

Hundreds of thousands of people were there to see the show, ruined by 2 prats who I dare say knew what they were doing and hoped to get a birds eye view of the event. £40 (+ mega bucks for food and drink on a hot day) for a day out is a lot of money, and people rightly expect value for their money.

Wont they be popular if their names get into the media.

Potential headlines:

Red Arrows crash caused by weekend 'pilot'. Loss of life etc etc

>>Seek the individuals, prosecute, fine, and loss of licence M'lud.<<

Spare them name and shame for their own safety.

[ShyTorque]

KPax,

I'm intrigued that you said the RA(T) was 8 nm. How is this so?

The mauve AIC issued by NATS definitely says 6 nm, as it does for all of the Red Arrows displays.

BTW, I'm not a microlight pilot..... and I wasn't flying last weekend. ;)

http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4M218.PDF

[Tourist]

One question.

What time was the airspace in effect, and what time did they fly?

[BolkowJunior]

Aren't the Reds the RAF's ONLY full time aero team?
Given the generally sad show from the RAF - no Harriers (all in Afghanistan) , dare we ask for a Nimrood (I think they're all U/S) Plenty of Jags gathering dust - (we could have had a farewell 10 ship display for old times sake - they've been trying to get them in to Cosford for the past four weeks I'm sure there is enough spare avtur around). Haven't the MOD got a Hunter on the books now? Vulcan printed on the ticket (promises, promises) No international visitors (Is the Indian Air Force visiting RIAT)? What about a German Phantoom for old times. I'm sure the Yanks have got the odd B52 that could pop across from Yoming or wherever (they'd probably miss and do a slow flypast of Birmingham Int instead) ....... Hey I'd offer a Bolkow Junior...
Given that C is now billed as 'The largest outdoor gathering in the West Midlands' In excess of 53K) and I don't think the trains ran again. I would have thought there would be more effort.
As for the microlight pilot - prosecution is unfair and only makes money for lawyers.l I think we should take a leaf out of the current Government's policies relating to victim support and invite him/her to next year's show (assuming there is one) for an aerobatic display of what happens to a microlight in close proximity of fast jets, if he /she survives that, he/she can set up a stall next to one of those awful teddybear raffle stands by the air rifle range and then explain to all of the anoraks (I flew one of those in 1953 and I recon I could fly one today...) /pilots who read NOTAMS (Why are you such a D***head?) and the general public (is it a helicopter?) the difference between flying a real aircraft and what he does (I was on a stand for three hours there on Sunday and ended up brain dead!).
As Joni Mitchell said "You don't know what you've got till its gone" (I'm off to RIAT..)

[Raven30]

another thing

"The merits of various display teams aside - what makes the fact that this infringement caused havoc to the Reds display any more henious a crime/mistake than any other infringement?"

Surely the presence of 40-50,000 people on the ground and the potential collision risk increased by a factor of 9 makes it a much more serious situation??

[XR537]

If you want to see the best team in the world, look south to the Patrouille de France. Admittedly, I have not seen their 2007 show, but they have consistently struck me over the last 10 years as being far better than anyone else - dynamic, flown with finesse, and incorporating elements that no other teams can claim to have an equivalent to.
Hmmmmm... yeah right!! :rolleyes:
I've seen hundreds of Arrows displays since 1970 and I've seen the Angels, Frecce, Patrouille, and most of the others on more than a dozen occasions each - and, yes, I've seen the PdF 2007 'display'.
BUT, I have never in all those years seen any other team (apart from the Reds) be so adaptable as to be able to change the display (sometimes more than three or four times) mid-way through the display. All the others, even the Yanks, call-in and bu**er off back home if it's anything but CAVOK.
The Arrows? They get on with it, change the display to suit and don't let the crowd down unless it really is pea-soup viz.
Now, that's professionalism, dedication and a competency of training far in excess of anything the other also-rans can dream of. They are also considerably more PR-orientated than the Frenchies (who seem to stick there noses in the air and waltz by) or the Frecce (who spend half their meet-and-greet time checking their hair in the reflection of each others shades). And don't even get me started on the Yanks' fly-boys... jumped up ego-jockeys doesn't even begin to describe it.
As to those on here spouting off about 'why special treatment for the Reds?' - well, it isn't... it's just called 'The Law' and a RA(T) infringement is prosecuted to the same extent than any other one. It's just more planes involved, and Red 1 did absolutely the right thing. Nine jets at 300 kts going into each other (because some idiot didn't read the clubhouse boards that morning) or then into the crowd... well, people just need to remember Ramstein to even contemplate that.
So, do the Arrows-haters want all airshows banned in the UK becuase some pr*t causes a major catastophe? Because that is what would be likely, at least for some years... and then there would be nothing, not even the Eagles or the other teams that the Arrows-knockers think are better.
BTW, can any of the knockers can fly any of the Hawks to a higher level of expertise? Thought not! :p

[Tourist]

XR537.
Pr-orientated :eek:Don't make me laugh.


I will gladly accept that their flying is as good as any out there.
I personally don't think the choreography is as good as the PdF or Tricolunacy, but that is just my opinion.

What does let them down, however, is that due to their attitude to other mil pilots, "Hi, I'm red 1" etc, everybody else tells the public that they are tw@ts. Not good pr

[Contacttower]

I friend of mine recently spent a week with the Red Arrows in Cyprus doing 'work experience' (not bad for a cadet), got two flights in the back and came away thinking they were a group of highly trained and professional individuals who do a great job. Tourist you say that they behave badly towards other pilots, which I have to say does make me feel rather disappointed in them but I rather doubt it is indicative of the Red Arrows' attitude in general.

[XR537]

What does let them down, however, is that due to their attitude to other mil pilots, "Hi, I'm red 1" etc, everybody else tells the public that they are tw@ts. Not good pr

Nonsense! :=

Having personally met them on more occasions than I can remember (both on bases/airports and at their own HQs), and having taken many groups of children to meet them (often those under-priveleged or with life-limiting problems) I have NEVER EVER had any Red Arrows pilot introduce himself (or herself in the case of the last three team managers) as "I'm Red #" - that has got to be the biggest load of made up clapt**p I've seen on this forum for a long time.

In all those years, it has always been "Hello, [firstname] [surname]... good to meet you" or similar, NEVER by their call sign. The only time I have ever heard them use their call signs is in pre-flight briefings, de-briefings or on the radio - as it should be. And I've socialised with a good number of them on a casual basis too over the years, and I've never heard call signs used in social situations as an introduction.

The PdF and Freakin' Tricky-O-Lordy (as they are known by the sensible pilots of the World) are so up their own backsides with their ego's, it's a wonder they fit in their cockpits.

But, my main argument is still this... How many other teams can vary the display - no matter what changes - to keep the crowd happy? Answer= None.

If it starts raining in France, the PdF fly home because they don't want to get their paintwork (or hair) wet. :p

[Grey'npointy]

Tourist

You are talking cr@p. I take it you have either a. never spent any time in their company or b. not made the shortlist on application. I did not make the shortlist when I applied but the day spent with the team prior to application was a top day out. When you fly with them you get to see just how hard they are working and learn to appreciate the skill involved. On that day every one of them flew 3 times, had a number of niff naff triv jobs to do, plus had to meet and host numerous arb visitors to the Sqn. To a man they carried out their work with complete professionalism and made the visitors feel welcome and special.

Your comments are ignorant.

GnP.

[Tombstone]

Tut tut tut Gents,

I'm sorry to see you bite at Tourists fishing line.

Let us not forget that he is a bit of a k:mad:ber, with a hint of arrogance thrown in for good measure! :ugh:

Any team run by JH will have no time for ego, arrogance or bravado.

Jas is a top fella, a pro & his team follow suit. :D

[Cron]

For Information:

You don't need a licence for a Powered foot launched Hanglider, or for a Powered foot launched Paraglider.

Neither do you need a Medical Licence or Radio Licence.

Beats me.

Regards Cron.

[DX Wombat]

Maybe other places could take a leaf out of Halfpenny Green's book. On Friday the FISO went to every school on the airfield and explained the details to everyone. Saturday and Sunday saw a big notice on HGFC's "Important Notices" board (I can't speak for the other schools) with very specific warnings about times and headings when and where it was advisable not to fly. All aircraft, from all schools, were (voluntarily) on the ground or well out of the way during the appropriate times and especially when The Red Arrows were forming in EGBO's overhead. The reward was a fly-through the overhead when the second display had to be cancelled. I wasn't around :( I don't suppose there is any chance of a repeat fly-through when I'm there? :confused: (Don't worry, much as I would like to have seen them, I AM joking.) :) ;)

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tourist,
You are a complete idiot, and frankly a liar!
I don't believe you (or anyone else for that matter) has heard a member of the team come up to them or anyone and say 'Hi, I'm Red whatever' you're talking crap.

I know all of the team, both professionally and socially. I have been with them at seceral corportae events aswell as at airshows when they have met the public. You are so utterly wrong.

Their flying isn't as good as anyone elses - its far better! Its better than mine, and if you ask any BritMil pilot he will tell you the same. The same applies to the USAF T'Birds. I had a few days with them last year, and their 'aim' is to be as 'sharp as the RAF Red Arrows' and thats from the team themselves. So wake up Tourist, we have the very best in the Arrows.

And as for your comment about 'their' views of other Military pilots - even more trash. They all come from an operational squadron with years of squadron life behind them, why do you think they would suddenly turn their backs on all their old squadron mates??

As for the infringement, the idiots in the microlights need taking to one side and putting back through the training system again, because they clearly missed the lesson on NOTAMS. I hope that the CAA deal with them severly. A mistake is one thing, ignorance and stupidity is another, especially when peoples lives are at stake.

You do talk a load of rubbish Tourist.
TSM

[Clockwork Mouse]

Tourist
Despite yourself you have performed a valuable service for which I, for one, thank you.
By spouting your spiteful and inaccurate crap you have provoked those who, unlike you, know what they are talking about to come to the defence of the Reds. Not before time too.
The team have not been treated well on this forum in the past. I can only put this down to ignorance and envy. They are truly the best display team and the best of guys. They set the standard. We should ALL, and especially those of you associated with the RAF, be proud of their professionalism and the positive image of the RAF, our armed forces and our country which they portray. Thank God we have something left to be proud of.

[Navy_Adversary]

"got chased away by a MIG 21..... "

vec, you must have been flying in something pretty quick:)

[Ewan Whosearmy]

XR537 wrote:
BUT, I have never in all those years seen any other team (apart from the Reds) be so adaptable as to be able to change the display (sometimes more than three or four times) mid-way through the display.

I accept that flexibility is an important thing in climates like we have in the UK, but for most of the rest of the world, it's far less of a limfac. As such, it's not high on my 'clapometer' for display teams. Personally, I would prefer to see a single display that is better choreographed and flown, than a team that is less impressive but more flexible when the wx comes down.
They are also considerably more PR-orientated than the Frenchies...
I spent a week in Cyprus and flew with the Reds, so I am well aware that they have a good attitude towards PR. But from a spectator's perspective, that's unlikely to make the jaw drop and is not one of the criteria that I would use to grade the team's display flying.
And don't even get me started on the Yanks' fly-boys... jumped up ego-jockeys doesn't even begin to describe it

This comment shows the same amount of ignorance as Tourist's comments about the Reds.

It's great that you have pride in your country's team, but to disparage other nationalities and teams like this is reflects poorly on us all.

FTR, I am friends with one serving T-Clone pilot, and he is the nicest, non-egotistical guy that you could hope to meet. I knew him before he joined the team, flew in the back of his Viper, even, and he's just as down to earth now as then. Just as the current Reds are, no doubt.

You talk about someone else's claptrap; well, people in glass houses...

[XR537]

Ewan Whosearmy wrote:

Personally, I would prefer to see a single display that is better choreographed and flown, than a team that is less impressive but more flexible when the wx comes down.

I think the majority of the great-British ticket-paying public would rather some 'a' display rather than no display.

I spent a week in Cyprus and flew with the Reds, so I am well aware that they have a good attitude towards PR. But from a spectator's perspective, that's unlikely to make the jaw drop and is not one of the criteria that I would use to grade the team's display flying.

Then they are doing their job - PR and flying the flag are two of the most important roles they perform, the display is a means to that end.

The Reds aren't there to impress military pilots (i.e. the ones that are already in the forces - the recruitment ads have already worked on them) - one of the main roles is to display, show what we in Britain can still beat the World at, and hopefully make some of the younger audience members think about picking up a bone-dome/spanner/nav chart/radar headset/etc. as a future career.

And if the display doesn't go ahead, then that doesn't happen, and the youngsters/cadets there are not there to pick over the finer detail.

FTR, I am friends with one serving T-Clone pilot, and he is the nicest, non-egotistical guy that you could hope to meet. I knew him before he joined the team, flew in the back of his Viper, even, and he's just as down to earth now as then.

That's great that you know someone who is down to earth... however, I have long-lasting memories of the US team dissing the Arrows during a US tour in the 80's with comments like "we knock these guys out the blue"... and then shutting up, when the commentator gave a few stats on just how close Apollo is flown.

Maybe, they have matured... that's good to hear.

Tombstone wrote:
Any team run by JH will have no time for ego, arrogance or bravado.
Jas is a top fella, a pro & his team follow suit.

Absolutely... Jas will, I believe, prove to be one of the best leaders in the history of the team. Not only is he always so accomodating to the public, I've never seen a flicker of ego about him, from when he was in the team to his current role as Boss. He had good bosses in the form of Offo and Spike when he flew for them, and he continues that sense of level-headedness in what is one of the most coveted jobs in aviation.

Clockwork Mouse wrote:
The team have not been treated well on this forum in the past. I can only put this down to ignorance and envy. They are truly the best display team and the best of guys. They set the standard. We should ALL, and especially those of you associated with the RAF, be proud of their professionalism and the positive image of the RAF, our armed forces and our country which they portray. Thank God we have something left to be proud of.

Couldn't have put it better myself... "ignorance and envy".

It's bad enough seeing the element of British-bashing luvvies having a go at anything we do well in this country, let alone reading 'comrades in arms' having a pop at their own ambassadors... that is quite inbelievable behaviour.

Maybe Tourist just has a chip on his epaulettes (I might be wrong, but the text so far doesn't bode well)... and such negative attitude wouldn't go down well in any selection process. Ho hum.

[ATCO Fred]

You are a complete idiot, and frankly a liar!
I don't believe you (or anyone else for that matter) has heard a member of the team come up to them or anyone and say 'Hi, I'm Red whatever' you're talking crap.


TSM - note quite correct. I happened to be in the Bar at LOO several years ago after the Reds had completed their first display of the season. Stood talking to our brand new Plt Off when Red Suited pilot walks out thrusts his hand out to the Plt Off and says

“Hi Red 5 pleased to meet you"

New Plt Off, quick as a flash, thrusts out his hand "talk down 2 - pleased to meet you"

Small harrumph from Red suited pilot and hysterics from all those in ear shot.


Oh, and I don't lie - Mum told me not to!

Fred

[GeeRam]

All the others, even the Yanks, call-in and bu**er off back home if it's anything but CAVOK.
The Arrows? They get on with it, change the display to suit and don't let the crowd down unless it really is pea-soup viz.

Weren't at Finningley then back in 1992 when the Blue Angels displayed impressively in that awful clag?.........:)

I've also seen most of the world's team, from Europe, the America's and even the Japanese.......and I still think the Reds are at the top of the current pile, although I do have a soft spot for the Suisse and the mad Italians.....

Best though.........for me, still the Black Arrows......:)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Ah nostalgia; the Black Arrows. They really were the Topp team.

[Flap62]

Have to agree, superb skills and in general a nice bunch of blokes over the years but why oh why the embarrassing RT?
Had a couple of trips in the back and felt like reaching for the handle after every check in!

[Jaguar Pilot]

"Ah nostalgia; the Black Arrows".

The 22-ship loop still stands as a world record I believe.
Wonder what thrust setting lead set....

[Manthrax]

You may be interested to know that the RAT infringement at Cosford is now the subject of an RAF investigation. I anticipate that a Safety regulatory Group investigation will also be opened.

It is not helpful for members of Pprune to call for the 'hanging' of the motor glider pilot. If he/she is reading this, he is now unlikely to submit an open and honest report into the incident. That hampers the investigation, although we will probably trace the ac through our (very good) radar tracing people.

All investigations culminate in 'appropriate' action being taken. A negligent act can attract a hefty fine and in rare cases, jail. However, genuine mistakes/lapses/errors are usually dealt with at a much lower level - maybe a formal letter to the CFI. Many GA pilots talk to ATC on the phone shortly after their infringement and the issue is resolved at a 'local' level. In my experience, this is effective - not only does the pilot learn from his mistake, but he tells his flying club colleagues and they learn by proxy.

In the Cosford RAT case, the pilot may have been given 'duff gen', or he may have been lost, or he may have been negligent - time will tell.

Nobody has thought to praise the 'safety nets' the Red Arrows Management team and Shawbury ATC had in place to avoid disaster. The Approach Controller was giving the Reds a RIS, and made a good spot when he called a very small, non-squawking aircraft to the Reds. With the information they had, they made the decision to 'knock it off' - their safety nets worked.

[Audax]

JP, ref the Tremblers 22 ship loop. I have a dim and distant memory that an East European Air Force, possibly Poland, looped approx 30 Mig 15s (?) to claim the record. I recall seeing the SOP fuzzy photo but can't be certain---anyone any firm gen?

[mattkcraven]

I was also at Cosford on the day, and was a tad annoyed by the two infringements for obvious reasons. However, may I bring up the point that conditions on the day were extremely hazy, and flying into the sun would have been most unpleasant. Therefore it is quite possible that either (or both) pilots were simply disorientated/lost, and quite aware of the NOTAM in effect. I would have never flown in those conditions in my PA28, nevermind radioless/ nav-aid-less. Surely a bit of patience could be in order until the full investigation is complete. Of course flying on the day in that vis was bad planning itself, however getting lost does happen. But not checking the local NOTAM's really is unforgiveable, especially to all those at Cosford and the effort that the Reds made to fly so well on the day.

[radar707]

I was working Birmingham radar on Sunday and have to say that every pilot that called me out in the FIR in the vicinity of Cosford was well aware of the RA(T) in force that day

A few points that may have been overlooked here:

1. The notamed RA(T) for the display at cosford was 5nm radius up to 5000ft and for the red arrows display 6nm radius and up to 8300ft.

2. The Red Arrows display was late and the new times were not subject to a notam (despite Birmingham asking if it was going to be notamed.)

3. On at least one occasion the Red Arrows were outside the RA(T) (7nm)

I don't know where these guys tthat "allegedly" infringed the RA(T) were flying exactly in relation to the RA(T) but if they were outside 5nm but inside 6nm or above 5000ft during the reds display then they had every right to be there as the RA(T) for the reds had expired and was not subject to a new notam.

[Tourist]

radar707

Your point 2 was what I was alluding to earlier. Perhaps the consumate pros should stick to their timings a bit better.

Wingeing chimp and other tw@ts who have gone early on the personal abuse.

The idea that they never introduce themselves as "Red ....." is imbecilic.

There is a reason that they are so unpopular with military pilots, and it is their attitude to others, not their flying.
You don't see anyone giving abuse to the chinook pilot (now that is a display), and he has a real job as well.

[PPRuNe Pop]

I was particularly interested to see this from JH.

Prior to each display, we contact all of the local airfields to our display site reminding them of the restrictions; also display organisers are also very pro-active in highlighting any restrictions to other local airspace users.

That, I feel, is indicative of the professional way the Reds work. You can bet it is not in JH's 'job description.' But it is certainly the responsibility of any pilot to KNOW that a NOTAM exists for ANY function that requires one.

What if?.......................................has many questions - and terrible possible answers!

[Talking Radalt]

You don't see anyone giving abuse to the chinook pilot (now that is a display),
Come to Odiham. We give him shed loads.
He's just too laid back to care. :ok:

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tourist,
My previous post has obviously upset you somewhat, and if it has then I apologise, but you need to takle a close look at what you are saying..............'There is a reason that they are so unpopular with military pilots' what an absurdly stupid thing to write. The fact is that they are NOT unpopular with Military pilots at all. I am ex military, and still a pilot, but they are not unpopular with me or anyone I know. I would agree that there are a lot of pilots, mil and civvie, who are extremely envious of them and the lifestyle they lead, but they are not unpopular amongt us.

As I have said, I know them all professionally and socially and you are wrong about them. Clearly you are upset and have some personal problem with the Red Arrows - maybe you failed the selection for them? maybe you're not even a pilot yourself? Maybe you're not even in the Air Force and just want to look silly? either way, take some pills, have a lie down and try to get over it, there's a good chap.

TSM

[A2QFI]

I worked in a FJ simulator for a number of years and saw several pilots go from a front line squadron, to the Reds for 3 years and back to a squadron via a refresher course. In no case did I see any signs of inflated ego, changed attitude or anything that made them different from the people they had been before their 3 years away.

[The Swinging Monkey]

A2QFI

That pretty much says it all, well done.
Tourist, listen to people in the know, not idle speculation from a few who (like me) probably wern't good enough to make the grade for the Reds!
TSM

[Jaguar Pilot]

Audax,

I did not know of the 30 Mig loop I must confess.

....and do you or anyone else know from where Tremblers acquired the rest of the jets and pilots?

JP

[Tourist]

Correct TSM, I am not in the Air Farce.

I am however a military pilot, and have come across them at various times at various airshows displaying or static in various aircraft/helicopters.

Jealous? Well I must admit I would like a free Breitling, but hawks are not really my area of expertise, and I like to enjoy the airshow party.

I have never suggested their flying was anything but exemplary, even if not to my taste, and how do you compare different teams flying skills, when flying different displays in different aircraft?

Whilst there are many on the other thread who think they are fantastic/walk on water/heal the sick etc (about 9 suspiciously.......), there are certainly enough to suggest that the epithet "liar" was a bit strong.

[whowhenwhy]

Simply put guys, it depends upon the characters on the team at the time. I've heard a couple of Sparrows years ago introduce themselves in the bar as Red whatever and generally speaking said individual was looked on as what he was, a prat.

A lot of the guys now are, I'm sure, completely normal FJ mates ( except the Harrier guys, F3 girls and GR4 types obviously).

Sorry, forgot for a minute that now we've got rid of the Jag I have to find nice things to say about the rest of the FJ fleet!

Whatever some of them might have done in the past (and I'm sure I've related before some Sparrows buffoonery) the team are always second to none. Having said that, I always prefer to watch the Tricolori because they're entertaining but un-predictable. You always know that the Sparrows are going to be perfect-ish....:E

[saudipc-9]

As I mentioned in another thread (which disappeared) So what if they introduce themselves as Red--. I'd just give them my callsign:p

[Clockwork Mouse]

What did happen to the other thread? Did Tourist delete it because it was too pro-Reds?

[XR537]

What did happen to the other thread? Did Tourist delete it because it was too pro-Reds?
I think Tourist went off looking for 'free' Brietlings - that's got to be just about the daftest thing I've heard on here in a long time. :ugh:

The Reds and Blues don't get 'free' anything (let alone watches in the Breitling range) - any Auditors would go apes**t. Brietling offer their range to RAFAT (as they do to any squadron) at RAF-supply cost price and if the crew want to buy them, then so be it - it's a private purchase.

And, yes I know the UK Marketing Manager for Breitling and know the score, so I think the insinuations about freebies are a little unnecessary and not helpful.

And no, I am not a Red-dite through the middle - I admire all professional flying - but do think RAFAT represent the best there is. However, I've also met the Blue Eagles team on various occasions, and George Bacon has got to be one of the most charismatic and likeable pilots that I have ever met in my entire life - I could happily spend an evening in the bar talking to him, and his presentation at last year's PDS was absolutely top banana. :D

[kar999]

The near miss with the microlight happened right above where I live on the outskirts of Pattingham. It was a flexwing microlight flying from the South West towards the North East. It was no where near nor coming from the Shifnal airfield.

I have my own ideas as to where it had come from and was going to as we regularly get microlights flying over us. If I draw a straight line from the 2 airfields I'm thinking of it works out right above us.

When I live is well with the 6 mile zone as the red arrows have flown above us every year they have been at Cosford.

I'm not sure exactly what height the Arrows were but I have a photo from our garden that shows a similar fly past of our property (without the microlight) a few minutes after the incident. On the near miss they were closer and lower than that picture. By the time I had run indoors to get my camera the microlight had disappeared over woods behind me. As a new member I dont appear to be able to post attachment here though. (I can send to another member to post if anyone wants to see it.)

The idiot was clearly struggling to maintain control of his plane aftewards as he was encountering turbulance.

It could have been very nasty and I fully support the decision to abandon their display.

[airborne_artist]

Kar999 - no-one can post attachments - you need to upload the image to a picture hosting site such as Photobucket, and then link the image to here.

[kar999]

Thanks airborne artist. Sorry if it's a bit big. They were lower and closer to me on the near miss.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z112/kar_999/Reds.jpg

[craigJ]

Just out of interest… how are pilots selected to join the team?

Are they taken from recently trained pilots? Or from experienced pilots on operational squadrons?

craig

[Pontius Navigator]

Craig, the latter. However I believe some newly trained pilots are still 'creamed' off to become instructors. Don't know if that is the case but they were known as 'creamed-off QFIs.'

[ATCO17]

Funny old thing, a bit of thread creep here! The original was regarding an infringement of a Notamed and publicised TRA. 'Twas infringed, fact! Those that infringed obviously failed to correctly brief, and therefore failed in their airmanship. I started a thread a couple of weeks ago on the Rotorheads site, after the Reds flypast at Wembley, and I got a fair bit of flak. Ok, maybe in that instance, my beef was about aircraft in class G airspace, but it still comes down to good airmanship. We should all be on the same side, rather than pointing fingers and accusing. Yes, someone screwed up and perhaps, safety may have been compromised. But, let this be a forum for educating rather than persecuting...much as my thread in Rotors was intended. Maybe I took the wrong approach there, but we should all feel that we are privelaged to have Class G airspace, unlike some countries. The more we abuse the warnings and restrictions, the tighter the noose will be!

[themoonsaballoon]

USN Blue Angels for a start ! TMAB

[scottyhs]

I remember a similar incident happening up at Elvington a few years ago, Great shame that day and no doubt it was at Cosford too.

As for tourists and his remarks about the breitling well hes just a prat isn't he. I wont repeat what has been said about the way the chaps can get hold of breitlings, but i have also seen one ex-red auction his watch to raise money for charity. I wonder if tourist has ever done that?????? Probably not he will be too busy, planning his next set of drivel after realising he isn;t good enough to make the reds!

[saudipc-9]

to be considered the pinnacle of skill and airmaship

And speeling two:p

Ahhh OK, RN and a Helo pilot! Now that explains it all.. too many moving parts along with being stuck on a ship with too many smelly men for too long:p

[Three Yellows]

As a mere civilian, I'm appaulled that what started off as a serious air safety thread descended very quickly into a point scoring session between those who do/don't like the Reds, who is a better/worse pilot, which is the better service RAF/Navy. And it seems most important of all, who has the biggest watch/smallest willy. All of those things are irrelevant. Just grow up and stick to the point, 'cos actually you are all behaving like children. :{

Rant off.

[PPRuNe Pop]

He has a point.

Time to keep on topic but I expect this thread is nearing it's end...........we'll see!

PPP

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

He clearly does have a point. These insights to military cameradery can be very disturbing to the civilian viewer. Maybe there is a case for having a military Forum?

[Dukeyboy]

Dear me, seems the RAF can't have a discussion about their own (or BAe's?) display team without getting all knotted. Perhaps it's time just to give it all up and just FLY NAVY!

[The Helpful Stacker]

(In the spirit of the slide in thread).

Do the Royal Navy still have a proper flying branch?

I thought they'd all moved to RAF Cottesmore and become the Royal Air Force (Whinging Branch).:p

[Widger]

Just depends on GB!

[dogdriver]

ahoy-hoy.
a quick pitch in on the arrogance/call sign debate - Tourist isn't entirely wrong. My dear old Mum had one of the pilots come up to her whilst out in Akrotiri and introduce himself as Red 4. She told him where to ram it, and quite right too. I gather that the team's relations with staff on the base was at a pretty low ebb as well that year.

But my point is this - that was a long time ago. The colour of the aircraft stays the same, but the team is always changing and contributors to this forum fall into the trap of making generalisations about a squadron's reputation over an extended period, rather than the people within it at a particular time. I suspect that the current bunch (who seem a good crowd, with the possible exception of one or two when they are in cups) are being tarred with the brush that should have been applied to the kind of w#nkers who were serving in the RAFAT several years ago.

As someone commented earlier, I suspect that the current boss has instilled a no BS approach from the boys and girls on the whole team. Who knows, in a few year's time the Reds as a squadron may have slipped back into arrogant t#sser mode. But for now I think their critics should judge them only on the personalities of the people in it right now, and ignore the myths/urban tales/reputation that previous members' actions have adhered to the squadron.

[A and C]

I am told that a large aircraft with a big dish on top infringed the airspace of a large airfield south of Biggin Hill a few days back!

Can this be true?

[kar999]

I entered this thread because I witnessed a near miss between a Flexi microlight and the red arrows right above my house and within 1/2 mile of a small village.

Get real folks and stop scoring points. If events had have been just a few seconds different we would have been discussing a major incident and innocent people would be mourning their dead.

[Roffa]

A and C, in short, yes. Was during the Biggin Airshow, unless it's done it again since :)