Drug & Alcohol testing takes a step further [Archive]

Dea Certe

9th Jun 2007, 18:17

Has there been a problem with crews using drugs? In the US, I seem to recall that of all pilots tested for illegal drugs, the results came back 0.06 per cent and that included pre-employment tests!

I can tell you, the whole process is humiliating. First, some one in a whilte coat meets your flight and delivers a while envelope to the "testee." You have 15 minutes to report to the testing station. It's usually a restroom on the airport property that's been closed to the public. You produce your white envelope and company ID.

Then, after removing your coat and leaving your wallet or purse behind, you enter the cubicle. The water in the tank is dyed blue and the handle is taped so you can't accidently flush.

If, for some reason you can't "produce on demand", you have two hours to filled up and try again. Also, the temperture is taken after the sample is collected. And you get to sign all sorts of papers. Thankfully, it's not bog paper, but "legal-type" ones.

They can have my "product" any time they want, but frankly, I resent being pretty much accused of being guilty without cause. And what about "false positives"? It happens.

Just my thoughts.

If anyone wants more info, please IM me.

Dea

PS: I've been tested about 20 times in the last 10 years. Clean every time. :ok:

bluefalcon

10th Jun 2007, 01:27

We are becoming the laughing stock of evryone aoround us, including the passengers. If this is happening is because we are so stupid that we are actually letting it happen. Its not just the security, more than embarrasing, useless, and say sometimes humiliating and desrespectful that we are goin through now a days,,,, it goes one extra step and now we have to stop infront of the gate, the passenegers and blow into a tube,, what will be next, :ugh:....
Do doctors get alcohol tests= NO ( many lifes depend on them)
Do Judges get alcohol tests= NO (many life sentences (and death in the US) depend on them.)
Do construction workers get alcohol tests= NO (imagine a roof in an airport collapsing)
Do our airplane mecahnics get them= NO (and damm sure our lifes and all passengers could depend on a mistake they make!!):ouch:
We are leading ourselves to where we deserve to, by putting up with all this :mad:,
No more comments.

VONKLUFFEN

10th Jun 2007, 01:32

...seems all the one complaining must have something to hide. Lets see it from a different perspective. I need to have an operation so I go to the hospital. One door says " Doctor fit to perform any operation. No drugs or alcohol related background found." The second door reads. "Doctor. Alcohol and drug test not performed ,Doctor's Union requested delay to this tests. Court granted it."
Now you have to choose which door to knock at. What would you do?
Last but not least, the very next day your daughter or son need to be hospitalized also....Of course the first door is not a guarantee but at least makes you feel more relaxed. That is the way passengers should feel when they put their lives in our hands. We are not afraid of flying. Don't forget, passengers are.
Please lets accept the fact that even the accidents related to this two substances is low, that does not mean the checks are wrong. This should be done not only to a pilot but to anyone willing to get a job ANYWHERE around the world( this not to hurt Egos about nationalities ) and of course with regular random checks as well. THAT would be fair!
K now you can fire back .....
Be good in the mean time.

Litebulbs

10th Jun 2007, 02:52

Im very sorry but people have to go to work to pay for their days off. I am not saying go to work pi55ed, but the system is attacking the wrong people. It is a demeaning experience to be tested for whatever. The very test gives the impression that you are a guilty party, fighting to prove your innocence.

You could take this argument in all directions. Say, you are lining up to take off and you think your partner has just air kissed you, walking out the door in a skirt she has never worn when you have gone out? Say, you are on short finals, knowing that, when you get home, their is that Amex bill for £XXXXX that you just haven't got the cash for. Are you 100% on the ball?

Give every pilot a faithful test.

Give every pilot a credit check.

You are easy targets, because if you refuse, then you must be guilty.

stellair

10th Jun 2007, 03:00

This is nothing more than an extension of the ludicrous suspicious society we live in. When is the last time a commercial flight ended in fatality due to intoxication on the pilots part? You could go on forever, have the testers been tested? What about the people testing them? Most of us operate with other crew and it would be obvious when someone is is no fit state to work. We already have ridiculous secrurity rules in place and I'm sure they would notice, report and relish finding and intoxicated pilot, **** knows they get close enough to us. This is a nothing short of insulting given the years of blood sweat and tears we dedicate in the pursuit of our passion and profession. Once in a blue moon a pilot may report in no fit state to operate but it's so unlikely I doubt it would be worth the bother of regular testing. This will be just another industry developing (like security, if you can call it that) around the real, professional, work that happens at airports. For the idiots that sit behind desks dreaming this **** up to keep themselves in work....Listen.....GET SOME QUALIFICATIONS, FIND A VOCATION AND GET A DECENT JOB THAT YOU CAN BE PROUD OF RATHER THAN DEGRADING THOSE WHO ALREADY HAVE THIS

VONKLUFFEN

10th Jun 2007, 03:29

...exactly! I think we all agree of the double standards. Well, if we are as good as we feel proud to be, lets give the first step forward. THEN we can demand the same from others. That is the problem that we always fall short of making a commitment to follow up what happens next.
More people are killed or injured by doctors ,nurses and others ( 100,000 a YEAR only in the States )than all pilots together do in a life time. Well now , very slow very slow , SOP standards , check lists and same **** we all do every day not to crash, is being implemented at some hospitals. It is not up to the Macho Doctor who's Ego and CRM things are or will be done. Outside the industry everyone is at least 50 years behind in all those matters we are scrutinized every single day.
Lets be the example and fight back so that EVERY ONE is measured by the same rules and law. We should have nothing to fear. We need to be proactive not reactive. Just imagine we all around the world accept ( DEMAND)a check not only randomly but precisely with the only condition that all at all areas of our community do the same after we all pass. More than one would freak out and would backlash to those who like to play politics to get elected or reelected. That means to be proactive!
At the end society will be benefited of having a less tolerant criteria against drugs. Cannabis ? Just cannabis? Well now a days SO many do it and other stuff ,that it has become a cancer that is killing so many directly or indirectly. Well much more than air crashes do. And that is what is all about saving lives regarding who gets the credit, which it is not important at all.

20driver

11th Jun 2007, 19:00

Years back my boss suggested we implement a drug testing policy. XXX has one and it's a good idea he said. I started to check on this "good idea"
I contacted our insurance carrier.
Yes that is a good idea.
So if it is a good idea - reduces losses etc what sort of discount will it get us?
Ahhh - none, but it is still a good idea.

Then I checked out the cost of running the program. Pretty large actually.

I did quite a bit of research on this and the only place a testing program leads to any sort of "improvemnent" is in the context of a well thought out and administered (read expensive) HR program.
So at the end of the day it is really just another part of the paranoia industry. Find a cheap fix and avoid the problem.

20driver

cirrus01

11th Jun 2007, 20:09

Bluefalcon........
quote "Do our airplane mecahnics get them= NO (and damm sure our lifes and all passengers could depend on a mistake they make!!)"
Oh yes they do....FAA has been able to do for a number of years now, Europe caught up a couple of years ago as well

Hirsutesme

12th Jun 2007, 09:06

Borrow the Governments own drug advice, just say no.

bombhead

12th Jun 2007, 16:31

You will probably find D & D tests are for people involved in " safety critical "
employment.Like myself.

My actions taken under the influence of D & D may be detrimental to my
safety and those around me.

I also stand by the principal,of a ZERO drink drive limit.

parabellum

13th Jun 2007, 00:39

Drink and drugs are not the problem, history shows us that.
Fatigue is the problem but the powers that be just don't want to know.

It will be a very brave person that removes themselves from a flight and tells the company it is due to the company's unreasonable rostering.

muttly's pigeon

13th Jun 2007, 01:31

I also stand by the principal,of a ZERO drink drive limit.

Only problem with ZERO is that pass/fail it determined in a large part by how good the measuring equipment is. If I was to have a beer with dinner and get up for work at 8am then I could concievably be over the limit...... also there are problems accociated with having taken cough medicines, mouthwash etc. Low is fair enough - zero is impractical and would net too many innocent parties.
In NZ we have a resonably hight limit (400mcg) for driving an there is talk of lowering it to reduce drink drive accidents......... Great political idea but unfortunatly the reality is that its the person who is more than twice this limit and repeat offenders causing most of the problems.... not someone who had a wine with dinner and drove home. Lowering the limit doesnt solve the problem (assuming a sensible limit in the first place).

20driver

14th Jun 2007, 12:07

A zero limit seems fine untill you realize the minute levels the tests can detect.

One extreme example of this was the Winter Olympics in Nagano where a Canadian was stripped of his medal for a trace of THC in his system.
The guy was a well known non smoker, ( for a boarder in Whistler to be a non smoker was such a rarity that this was well known around town). It seems that just being around smokers was enough to leave a trace in his system.

I personally got jammed up as I was told that I needed to update a drug test on re visiting a construction site. Problem was I had being prescribed 222's a few weeks previously and was certain to test positive for cocaine. I managed to duck the test but I would have refused it if need be. There was no way I was going to have a piece of paper floating around with a positive test result no mater what the reason.

Drug testing is attractive as it seems an easy fix to a complex problem. Like most such "solutions" it is neither easy or a fix.

20driver

Big mustache

17th Jun 2007, 09:58

Are Air Traffic Controllers subject to this level of testing?

I too am opposed to this "Well if you have nothing to hide.." society.

Lord Lucan

17th Jun 2007, 16:11

I'm with Parabellum on this.

It is fatigue that is the problem. And no-one in authority (or, apparently, the unions) has the slightest interest in dealing with this.

I cant remember the reference but I remember reading about sim experiments showing pilot performance deterioration with fatigue is comparable to that of those who have been given a few drinks.

But, hey!. As the airport security fiasco shows us, it is much easier to appear to be doing something, even if it is a complete waste of time, than to address the real problems.

Pinkman

17th Jun 2007, 18:16

On D&A testing, I can't understand why you guys think it's demeaning. When I worked in field ops - which included responsibility for aviation fuelling safety - we accepted that we were subject to random screening as a condition of employment. We didnt see it as demeaning, we saw it as a corollary of the importance attached to a safety critical position. Office workers and senior management rarely got tested. Despite the testing there were always some idiot - thats the 0.01% part of being human - that couldnt control himself or thought the rules didn't apply to him and got nailed. The testing was risk based: you failed and you got transferred to a high-test frequency regime with counselling etc. Fail again and you are out. We even do this with Malaria medication because yet again, a small fraction of employees think they are special and don't need to take their chemoprophylaxis when in Africa, so we test for the metabolites of the antimalarial. Its a nuisance, but we don't feel personally demeaned. With respect to D& A testing we accept that its the 0.01% of tw@ts that spoil it for the rest of us and that you guys have a right to expect that when an employee fuels your aircraft he does it per book. Similarly in 2007 we live in a world where your customers and insurers have an expectation that you manage these issues. I just cant see the 'personal insult' aspect of this issue.

On fatigue, there is at least one airline - easyjet - that has recently done extensive work on fatigue. I know, because I've just employed the consultant that they used and by all acounts it was fairly successful.

PM me if you need the details.

winkle

17th Jun 2007, 19:22

Some excellent responses. I totally agree with the fact that alcohol and drugs have no place in the work place, I do think that the fatigue issue is bigger than one can imagine. I am sure the management in any profit making organisation will always get the "experts" in and make sure the results lie in the side of profit. Not saying that mr pinkman would have erred on this side. I would also like to add that as a human I am also a complete expert in human fatigue. I like to sleep when its dark and be awake during the day, I also respond to food and water. Which as you may have noticed is somewhat lacking in some of the steel lockers we now work in.
As an aside why is it that in the states there are loads of drinking water fountains in the airports but here its just plastic bottles at rip off prices and more waste for the planet. mr green from angry.

6chimes

17th Jun 2007, 19:35

I wonder if VONKLUFFEN has considered the cost and massive man power needed to run a program that tests everybody in the land that has some degree of control over someone elses safety.

We already have a program to control fatigue at my airline, it goes like this..................."Good morning how are you?"......."Shattered, max FDP and MIN rest again yesterday"............"Ye me to, but we're legal so lets go...what was your name again?" :ok:

6

Miles

17th Jun 2007, 19:46

I, as part of my second occupation, have to perform drug and alcohol screening everyday in the medical centre of a construction site. The victims are picked at random (some 5% of the workforce). They recently have added a fatigue test by way of a computerised eye reaction measurement. We can do urine and saliva tests for drugs, but only after a significant event. All this was accepted by the unions as fair, considering the high risk of injury.

So as for the results? Most blow less than .05 despite being borderline alcoholics:yuk:. They are given a second test a short time later and can continue work if back at 0.0 (most). Very few blow over .05 (who are invited to rest for the day elsewhere). The fatigue test is very hit and miss, if they show positive they take the test again and usually pass:rolleyes:

Upshot is that fatigue testing is unreliable and the breath test needs a fair consumption to show anything (we test this regularly, I myself needed three pints to get .01)

As for the need to test pilots, can we not rely on multi crew operations to police themselves?