European Air Charter buy 5 BA B747-200's !!!

[JB007]

Thats about all I know!!! Someone care to fill us all in with the rest...

No doubt Mr Eddington was giving them away!!

I understand 1 will be used as a spares a/c, Anyone any idea of routes EAAC will operate?

[Fly747]

I seem to remember that they bought them ages ago and then leased them back to BA.

[Saab 2000 Driver]

Aren´t they the same outfit, based in Luxembourg, that fly Saab 2000´s for Regional Airlines ? I heard that they were in a poor financial state a few months ago...

Or is it the UK based company flying those museum ripe Bac 111´s.

:confused:

[slipper 1]

I cant see EAAC operating them, they do ad-hoc charter work to the Med !!
I would think they may be getting broken up for spares, as they make quite a bit of their money breaking aircraft. :D :rolleyes:

[HiSpeedTape]

Are they not all broken ?

[The Guvnor]

They previously bought some ex BA -100s from AAR, which they sold to Air Gulf Falcon. Their owner, Paul Stoddart, also owns the Minardi Formula 1 racing team of whom Murray Walker once said "And here comes Minardi, just finishing last year's race!" :D :eek: :D

Fly747 - you're thinking of AAR, who bought and leased back to BA the early -200s.

Saab 2000 Driver - the one with the BACs and the ex Sabena 737s.

[anthonyvickery]

Of course, when Paul Stoddart bought the 1-11s from BA at the beginning of the nineties, a lot of people wondered what on earth he was going to use them for. History shows that that judgement turned out to be a very good one, when demand picked up.

[Human Factor]

What's the betting when the market recovers next year and BA etc realise they're short of aeroplanes, they'll wet lease them back from Paul Stoddart, who'll make a tidy profit.

At least someone in the business thinks ahead! :D

[dullcopilot]

he can probably afford them cos he made so many crews redundant , 1-11 and 737 , what would 5 747s cost , any ideas?

[Second Segment]

Wasn't it Stewart John (ex Cathay Engineering director) whose company bought the BA 200's for freighter conversion in China?

[wryly smiling]

the 747,s are going for between £1M and £5M
so the rumour has it

[smiths]

That's in the same price range for a brand new Lear or a Citation. That's a bargain!! I'll take 2 please. :D

[411A]

Prices are falling rapidly for old aircraft, for example 3 DC-9F's are to auctioned December 5 and are expected to bring no more than $500,000....total.
Many ex-BA 747's are being scrapped in KROW...in order to bring the aircraft to ground level, big D9 cats are used to rip the landing gear off. They land on the tarmac with a...big THUD.

[Noddy Staltern]

There is a 'UK charter airline' currently looking for 10 747-rated crews for a permanant UK contract flying G-registered aircraft. They have approached BALPA and Virgin looking for crews. Details are being kept very hush-hush as to Who, Where, What. Could it be EAAC? Then again, it could also be Atlas.....

[BOEINGBOY1]

noddy.
think that it is probably air freight express (AFX) out of lhr. had heard that they were looking for drivers a couple of weeks back. a bit of good news in the present climate.

[Noddy Staltern]

I know for a fact that it is not AFX - BALPA have said so. AFX are looking for some F/Os, this other company is looking for 10 whole crews. The plot thickens...

[RegionalFlyer]

Would anyone know where the recent redundant pilots stand re these alleged crew positions on the 747-200 in terms of their claim to flight deck positions? :confused:

[blended winglet]

so that would explain why I had a call
from an agent regarding Boeing types
at B/mouth ?
they were very cagey & wouldn't reveal all !!
hmmmm, 74 classics, lovely types, a bit old though !!

[The Guvnor]

RegionalFlyer - they can send in their CV like anyone else. Certainly, there's no legal requirement to give them anything - plus of course there are the VS classic crews in the market ... and the Lufthansa ones, and the Air Atlanta ones .. and so on and so forth...

[smiths]

Guv: Please elaborate about the LH classic crew. Don't know what you mean!

[The Guvnor]

LH have parked up all of their Classics as well - and are in the process of laying several thousand staff off.

[tilii]

I know you will correct me if I err, Guv, but I think you'll find that LH use a ... yes, shock horror, SENIORITY LIST. :eek:

This would mean that redundancies would not be based on fleet. Since most Classic pilots are of high seniority, there are unlikely to be too many of them floating around on the job market just yet, eh what? :rolleyes: :D

[Ex Servant]

I don't know if there's a link but in the December edition of Pilot the registrations page shows that G-BDXP has been sold to Iceland. Are Air Atlanta looking to fill any gaps in the market next year? This is what they specialise in doing.

[The Guvnor]

I know that you'll be shocked to hear this, tilii, but LH are offering redundancy packages to their staff. How many Classic people do you think will be saying to themselves, "Hmmmm, I can pocket X zillion DM and go over to the UK and fly 742s there!"

[spud]

Thank goodness we've got someone who knows everything about everything. Sure saves the rest of us some effort.

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: spud ]

[tilii]

The Guvnor

You know as well as I do that there is a vast difference between being offered a redundancy package, which one may take or not as one pleases, and being involuntarily involved in 'the process of laying several thousand staff off'. :rolleyes:

Yet another example of your being ever unwilling to stand corrected, Guv. Shame on you. :( ;)

[luddite]

Regionalflyer - I think we know exactly where we stand, the only variable is the depth of the poo......
And no, I don't have anything better to do than play with PPRuNe these days.
:( :mad: :(

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: luddite ]

[The Guvnor]

Oh dear, tilii. And there I was, thinking that you had stopped playing games - how foolish I was! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

I do not know how LH plan to carry out their redundacy scheme but doubtless I can do that if you wish. What I'd assume is that it would be similar to the UK - ie natural attrition through retirement, then voluntary packages, and only then forced layoffs.

I have read through this page again and I can see nowhere any reference from you (or me) to forced layoffs. Why, then, do you bring this into the thread now?

Anyway, isn't this supposed to be about BA's 747s ... not LH's ones? :confused:

[tilii]

Yes, Guv, how very foolish you are indeed. :D

[speed check]

well here we go chaps the gen ! sold for £15
each by big rod and coverted into millions by
stewart john. crewed by ex-ba crews with a huge payoff. bob aylings missus does the catering and whole lot is run by freddie Laker from a bar in miami (ive been in aviation to long) ;)

[411A]

...and the marketing done by Roy L., an old Sir Freddie friend and specialist....and there just "may" be L10's in the picture as well...stranger than fiction. All will be revealed in the new year.

[slipper 1]

Is it legal to make 20 BAC 1-11 pilots redundant, then next week start hiring 747 crews????? :confused: :confused:

[fergineer]

We wait with baited breath then 411A :D :D :D

[RegionalFlyer]

Hmmm, I'll take bets on the 747s being introduced for the Hajj flights, on the EAAC AOC but under another company name. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Paul Stoddart makes a good profit. Good luck to him.

I guess the attraction of being a smaller operation allows rapid changes of direction in reaction to industry trends. Just a damn shame some of us were thrown clear of the boat as it was changing direction!! :D

[411A]

Just WHAT do BAC 1-11 pilots' know about the B747?...in todays' market, the "smaller" carriers MUST obtain type-rated experienced guys...otherwise the training budget would go off the clock...not a happy thought...give the smaller operator a break...at least they are...trying.

[The Guvnor]

411A - don't let tilii see you saying that! According to him it's a God-given right under seniority rules that existing crews should be converted onto new types - regardless of expense.

[Dirty Harry]

If this is correct I suppose the argument surrounding the legality of EAC making the BAC 1-11 crews redundant and hiring B747 crews would largely depend on their contracts of employment. It would seem immoral also if true. Has anyone any solid evidence that EAC plan to operate these classics, because to add to the AOC is not a 2-minute job. My sympathy to all those loosing their jobs.

Any B737 crews going?

[Unwell_Raptor]

Is it legal for a building contractor to make 20 bricklayers redundant and hire ten carpenters rather than retrain the brickies?

I think it is...

[speed check]

Heard £50k for engineers and captains is this true? ;)

[tilii]

The Guvnor

You say of me that: According to him it's a God-given right under seniority rules that existing crews should be converted onto new types - regardless of expense.Once again you are being a very naughty chap in trying to put words in my mouth that you know I have never uttered. I have never argued that it is a ‘God-given’ right, only a right by way of seniority list agreements. You would do well to remember that such ‘rights’ were hard won over many years of argument and negotiation. They have served our industry, and public safety, well. Most of us will not see such rights eroded, especially by a Johnny-Come-Lately wannabe airline entrepreneur. :D

Unwell_Raptor

Yes, the scenario you describe is indeed legal. However, it is not relevant with respect to the scenario posted here as to BAC-111 pilots being made redundant and B747 pilots then being hired. You see, a brickie is not a carpenter, but a pilot remains a pilot irrespective of the type he/she flies. You know as well as I do that bricklayers and carpenters serve an apprenticeship over several years, thus their trades are not interchangeable. To train a qualified (and ‘apprenticeship’ served) pilot to fly an alternative aircraft type is a trifling thing by comparison. It takes a matter of weeks. It may cost to do so, but there can be a greater cost in not doing so in some circumstances. I would argue that to retrain the BAC-111 crews on the B747 would be a wise investment if the intention is to operate the B747 for any length of time. And that may be the problem here in that there may be no long-term intention to operate the type. In such circumstances, it would be a sound commercial decision to make the BAC-111 crews redundant and hire in type-rated B747 crews for the short period of operation intended. I will go one step further and say that it would also be in the best long-term interests of those BAC-111 crews to take up employment elsewhere rather than retrain just to again be made redundant some short time in the future. :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

[RegionalFlyer]

tilii

I appreciate what you're saying but there aren't that many 1-11 operators out there and equally there aren't many people handing out type ratings in the current market. Besides, believe it or not some of the EAAC pilots actually enjoy working there.

[tilii]

RegionalFlyer

I do not know the circumstances at EAC. For a start, I understand their purchase of the B747 is merely rumour. I do not know whether their BAC-111 pilots have a seniority agreement.

While my heart goes out to any pilot colleague finding him/herself made redundant in today's environment, I still hold that, where an employer treats employees badly, it is in the long term interests of the employees to depart the scene, however much they may 'enjoy' flying for that employer.

There is rarely gain without at least some pain, as the vast majority of us know all too well. :(

[doomsday]

All this chat about the 1-11 crews, you appear to have overlooked the 4 B732 crews who were given their marching orders and now have nothing better to do than post messages on this oft anoying forum for whingeing. Nice

[Noddy Staltern]

The salary proposed by the 'UK charter company' is £60K for captains, £40K for F/Os and F/Es. Strong rumours around that it IS European Aviation.

[WaspsNest002P]

Going back to the original thread here.. EAC purchased two 747-136's from BA a few years ago. The plan was to fly them to Bournemouth Hurn - however, the local Airport Authority had different ideas and prevented EAC (not EAAC!) from bringing them to BOH. In the event EAC had to store them (no doubt at some cost) at Charteroux in France, prior to reselling them.

So, unless "BIAA" have had a change of heart, don't expect them to actually turn up at Hurn. :eek:

(...& before the more observant plane-spotter points it out - "BIAA" does let 747SP's in for storage - but not 747-classics! - don't ask!!!)

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: WaspsNest002P ]

[flange lubricator]

EAC are paying $100,000 each for these aircraft. 1 is for spares and the other are for further use. They've all recently had a "B" check. I believe 1 will be based in Manchester.

Wet leasing to BA is a thought because of the fact that EAC can operate them much cheaper!!

[gas path]

The ex BA classics are due for heavy (major) checks and the powerplants are approaching time ex also.
DXB which was dumped at Kemble to be scapped might gets some care and attention and be ferried back to LHR for gear retraction checks prior to being delivered to HKG.

[The Guvnor]

flange lubricator - I think you're missing a '0' or so there ... even in the current market the avionics alone are worth several times that!

[dullcopilot]

So Guv , good to see you are actually talking bout the thread rather than carping with that other guy . Cost wise though, surely it depends on how many buyers there are out there , and there just cant be too many , so if you are desperate to sell some a/c , its the rules of supply and demand (as you have harped on about before).

[tilii]

dullcopilot

Harping and carping, eh? Good username, dear chap. Bet you're a delight to work with too.

Assuming I am 'that other guy' you complain that The Guvnor carps with, I would ask who appointed you as the 'thread policeman' here?

The point is that it seems highly unlikely that serviceable 74 Classics will be sold for a trifling £100,000. If you wish to hold that it is true, and down to nothing more than the laws of supply and demand, then so be it. But you do no service to accuracy whereas The Guv has tried to set a simple typo error straight. 'Nuf said? :rolleyes:

[CargoOne]

dullcopilot,
you can easily sell used TCAS II v7 set with mode-s transponders for $70-80k. then comms, gps, etc - another $10-20k. i can only guess what is the cost of aluminium you can get from fuselage :)

[dullcopilot]

OK well i must be dull , with a user name like that. sorry , i work for EAC , so Ill be the last to hear what is going on , have no idea about costs of a/c parts , but know a bit about markets, a tcas bit will cost that if there is demand , do i have to say it again ? in answer to an earlier question on the thread 7 737 pilots got made redundant .

[luddite]

Dullcopilot - don't listen to that tilii - you are a delight to work with. Or rather you were back in the good old days when I had a purpose in life. Sigh. :cool:

[doomsday]

dullcopilot, you certainly weren't dull when that Mr. Moretti character was in town.
Ciao Rustico.

[luddite]

Mr Moretti???? Was that a good piece of Sicilian scandal I missed??
:confused: :D :confused:

[BillTheCoach]

Given all this discussion about the ex BA 742's - two appeared recentlly and were stored at MAN.

One was used last weekend for a security exercise but the other has disappeared.

Who owns them ?

[bush]

Are we talking horse's heads in beds? Oh, how we laughed.

[gas path]

Bill
There both still there, the one that 'disappeared' is being used to test the new cloaking device.

[dullcopilot]

Bush .. horses .. beds .. head .. too many malaga s ,
Rusty .. good luck in Dublin , must do beers

luddite , Mr morretti is an Italian ladyboy

back to the topic , the 74 s are going to stn , apparently :cool: :D

[RegionalFlyer]

How difficult is it to extend an AOC, anyone know?

[The Guvnor]

Depends what sort of AOC; assuming it's a 1A or similar then only 2 or 3 months. Unless the CAA don't like you, in which case you could be looking at 6 months. Or more. Just ask Air Scandic/Air Cordiale how long theirs took! :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

[JJflyer]

For the last week I have been watching a LH B747-200 taking off same time every day. Yes a PAX airplane. So rumours about them being pakred seem to be quite incorrect. Do believe that they have this in mind for a lter date, but who would not.

[Ace Rimmer]

A bit off topic but can somebody clarify, I thought that VS were supposed to have parked all their classics, Then how come this exchange took place last Thurs?
AR: (opon spying not one but two VS classics at EGLL T3 while waiting to board flight) Blimey, I thought they'd parked all those classics
Mrs R: Classic what?
AR: 747s
Mrs R: What's a classic 747?
AR: One like that and that
Mrs R: You're sad, you know, why don't you carry on reading your nice aeroplane comic...
AR: But
Mrs R: (evenly but testily) Stop being an anorak

[Anti Skid On]

AR - been there, got the badge, t-shirt and sticker book!

BTW, over here in NZ the farmers on the south island were up in arms as the wide body services from Christchurch to Australia were being dropped, losing them about 100 tonnes of freight space per week. Anyone got a spare freighter going cheap? :cool:

[screwdriver]

Having denied knowledge of the likely destination for the BA aircraft, I hear that the BA Fleet Manager is off to join them at EAC.
Nuff Said

[anthonyvickery]

Here is the confirmation.

EAAC to launch widebody charters with ex-BA 747s

UK airline charter company European Aviation Air Charter (EAAC) has purchased five Boeing 747-200 aircraft from British Airways, a move which marks the company’s debut into widebody operations.

The acquisition is a radical departure for Bournemouth-based EAAC, which currently manages a fleet of eight Boeing 737-200Adv, three 737-200QCs and three BAC One-Eleven 500s – although the latter are scheduled to be retired by the end of March 2002.

EAAC has not firmly decided where the Rolls-Royce RB211-powered 747-200s will be based, although it is considering Manchester and London Stansted as possible options. Delivery of the first aircraft is anticipated early next year; the company is assuming an in-service date of 20 January.

It has not disclosed the sum which it is paying for the five aircraft. British Airways says that the deal does not amount to new cash for the flag-carrier, saying that it had already accounted for the income from the asset sale in its November interim results.

Australian-born entrepreneur and EAAC chairman Paul Stoddart, who took over the Italian Minardi Formula One motor racing team at the beginning of this year, says that the 747 purchase will allow the company to enter new markets – as well as allow to conduct long-haul operations in connection with the 2002 motor racing season. European Aviation Group has previously offered short-haul flights as part of its racing sponsorship packages.

EAAC will keep one of the 747s on standby as a spare and use the remaining four for lease or ad hoc operations. The company claims that it is receiving more enquiries about widebody operations now than for its narrowbody fleet.

“We realise that some people may question the wisdom of making a commercial commitment of this type at a time when there is a great deal of nervousness surrounding the aviation business,” says Stoddart.

“But we have never followed so-called ‘trends’ – preferring instead to do our own evaluation and strike deals when we believe it right for the European Aviation group of companies. We firmly believe that the global aviation business has a healthy future in the longer term, simply because people will continue to have a requirement to travel.

“Our company’s collective experience has taught us how to run a very efficient airline that boasts some of the lowest operating costs in Europe – we will now apply this knowledge to operating the European Aviation 747 fleet. As a result, I am certain this will turn out to be a highly-successful acquisition.”

[twistedenginestarter]

Brilliant! Someone with some balls!

[BOEINGBOY1]

this isn't eac's first attempt to break into the widebody market is it though! remember seeing an a300B4 in eac colours some years back on the eac mainanence apron at bournmouth. heard that it was one of a pair of a300's, but alas they never actually flew revenue flights for eac. could understand them being bought for parts/scrap, but why have them painted up if there was never an attempt to fly them? hope then with the purchase of the 747's their second attempt is far more successful.

[Dirty Harry]

I have previously contributed to this thread in which redundancies were being discussed. Is Mr Stoddart planning to re-hire all the pilots he made redundant a few weeks ago? I hope so for those involved.

[luddite]

So do I, Dirty Harry...but I'm not holding my breath.....
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Dirty Harry]

Desk Jet – Your last post would seem to suggest that you have cut and pasted from the media somewhere. Maybe you could state your source for us.

[The Guvnor]

I'm sure they will be, Dirty Harry - if they hold B747 ratings!

[Tailphinn]

I just hope the ex-BA and Virgin boys know
what they're letting themselves in for:
remember how to do a manual load sheet?
"Oh we've just got you a hire car to go from KUL to SIN"!!! all for £1.50 an hour!

[Tin Kicker]

Seen the article myself Harry. It is from Air Transport Intelligence, author David Morrow, hope this helps :cool:

[Roadtrip]

Going into the market with 747s right now is either really, really, stupid . . . or they know something nobody else does.

Time will tell.

[CargoOne]

So, now they will compete with AirAtlanta and Gulf Faclcon on Hajj or what?
How many holyday charters operated ex UK using 747 equipment?

[Pirate]

Over the years, Paul Stoddart has undertaken a number of ventures which appeared to be off the wall to those of us who flew his aeroplanes. The only common thread is that they all made money. After a while, we stuck to driving the machinery and let him get on with cutting the deals. This is one very astute businessman. Expect the 747 project to work - also expect great things of Minardi! :)

[Denzil]

Are they looking for any Engineers!!!!!

[bush]

Roadtrip,
Surely a good time to buy aircraft, demand has gone down and so has the price. They'll be coining it in next year, people arn't that afraid of flying here in Europe.
By the way, rumour is EAC will be using the 74's for Hajj flights next year, and for all you Americans out there that's a plane full of Muslims.

[411A]

These B747's will eat him for lunch. VERY expensive to operate and maintain, especially maintain...

[sharpshot]

Will Gulf Falcon be in the market for Haj Flights? The rumour in Sharjah last month was that they were shutting down. There were 2x 747-200's and an SP, the ex Lufywaffe 707 and one of the ex- B.A. 100's (G-AWNB?)delivered courtesy of European was getting broken up.
All were gathering a coat of sand. Have you seen them adverting in "Flight" lately!