Advice on buying a plane

[Blue Albatross]

Hi Everyone,

OK, before I begin this post, I would ask you to keep within the scope of my original questions and not go off in tangents the way that we normally do when replying to posts (i.e. suggesting a different spam can altogether) :}

I'm a low hours PPL(A). I trained on the C172 and would like to buy a C172 as my first aircraft. I figured it was what I cut my teeth in, so would be a good plane to own and run as a 1st time owner.

On top of the reason above, the place I normally fly out off has suggested that since their fleet is also of 172's, then I could maybe lease the plane to them and keep my running costs down through leasing it back to them. (As I'm an accountant, I ran through the numbers and they seem to tally).

Now for where you guys come in.

I recently saw a C172M for sale and asked the advice of the club I'd lease it to. He asked why I'd choose such an older plane, and I replied that I'd get something that was cheaper as I intended to put new avionics (Garmin 530 or similar and Mode S TX) and a new diesel engine.

He balked at why I'd wanna do that, saying the diesel would turn the 172 into a nice two seater as it was heavy, low HP's and not very good.

Now, I got some info on the Centurion 2.0 engine, and the info doesn't tally to what my guy was saying...for starters, the speed is roughly the same (5 kts slower) range is TWICE, fuel useage HALF and it's not that heavy!!

He suggested buying maybe a C172P....it's newer and has less problems with the engine that the original one in the M model.

So do you guys think I'd be mad to buy an older M plane and then tart it up with an interior refit and diesel engine, or go for something more along the lines of the P model?

Your advise and opinions would be most appreciated.

[WorkingHard]

F172M is a very nice aircraft. Only engine problems you will get is if it has not been properly maintained or been overhauled by other than the best. The Rheims versions were usually a better buy because of corosion proofing.

[flexy]

Goodness - with all the major mods, the CAA, the constant hassle I think you would find it a really bad introduction to owning your own aircraft as a first time. If you put a value on your own time (which as an accountant I would suggest you do) there will be an AWFUL lot of it taken up with this. If you also consider the things like resale value which should always be at the front of your mind when buying an aircraft this will be a bit of an oddity and may resale well or people would keep clear....I would suggest people might keep clear or at best the resale value wouldnt be comensurate with the amount of time and hassle you spent on it. If you provide an appoximate budget I am sure people on here will have some good ideas about which model 172 or similar would be a good bet as well as their individual pitfalls....

[Dan Winterland]

Don't. If it flys, floats or f#cks, it's cheaper to rent!

[BackPacker]

Comparing just the HP of a Thielert Diesel and a regular Lycosaurus is comparing apples to oranges. There are a lot of technical aspects that need to be taken into account, such as the HP/torque/RPM curve of the various engines, pitch setting, twist of the propellors and such, leading to endless discussions. But at the end of the day it is very simple.

Our club flies with PA-28-161s (160 HP) and a Diamond DA-40 with the 1.7 TDI engine (135 HP). Average cruise for a PA28 is 100 knots, while the DA-40 cruises at 115 knots. Both at MTOW. So that would speak in advantage of the DA-40, not?

Well, that is until you take the take-off and climb performance into account. The lower HP of the Diamond seriously impacts the length of the take-off roll and the climb performance. To the point that currently we are not, by default, allowed to visit Hilversum (EHHV, 600-700 meter grass) unless you have a lot of experience on the DA-40 and get a one-time exception from the CFI. Slightly longer fields than EHHV require some serious planning and perfect flying technique to get in and out safely. I've been to EBZW (800 meter asphalt) myself in the DA-40 and it's how a womens skirt should be: short enough to be interesting.

Granted, due to the turbo fitted, the climb performance will remain equal at altitude until you hit levels where oxygen is required.

Our club has contemplated fitting the Centurion to our PA-28s but decided against it, for now, for these reasons. As the airframe of the 172 is roughly the same as the PA-28 in terms of weight and drag, I would expect that the same considerations would apply.

We now do have two Robins (DR-200s) with the 1.7 Centurion fitted. They replace two DR200-120s which were 2+2 seaters anyway, and they perform perfectly in that replacement role.

I don't know the HP and torque figures of the 2.0 Centurion. Maybe it is a suitable engine for a 172 or PA-28, maybe not. If you want to be the guinea pig to test that out, fine.

[172driver]

Dan Winterland is right of course, BUT if you want to any serious touring around Europe, sole ownership is almost your only option, as most clubs or FBOs will require a minimum flown (or paid) per day. This pretty much precludes just going somewhere for a few days.

That said, Albatross, I'd say keep the first a/c you buy simple and sweet. I cannot comment on the merits of the Thielerts, never having flown one, but I don't hear an awful lot of great things about them.

If you have the opportunity to do a leaseback to an FTO/FBO that maintains Cessnas then just get a bog-standard C172 and trade up later on. Even within the Cessna lineup you can go to a 172RG (my usual mount) or a 182 without having to jump through burning hoops in maintenance and certification issues.

Happy flying!

[gasax]

As someone newly involved in aircraft ownership the very worst thing you should do is to get involved in major and expensive modifications of your new toy.

Buy exactly want you want or simply give anyone who asks a blank signed check - 'cos they'll see you coming and much enjoy taking your money!

The resale value of your very expensively modified 172M will in no way cover the costs involved - let alone the shear aggravation.

As to leasing it back to a flying club - well I could be cruel and say that as accountant you'll have no heart anyhow. But if you did then it would be broken by the abuse it will probably suffer - let alone the unserviceablity and increased manitrnance.

If you're leasing get exactly what the club has, do not upgrade it and accept it will get tatty very quickly (read depreciate at an enhanced rate!)

If you want a nice machine - buy a good one and only share it with people you trust (even then there might be the odd surprise!). Find a good engineering outfit (even harder) and be nice to them. It will still hurt financially but then you'll have that nice toy.

[Jetscream 32]

buy a 172 with a time ex engine - stick a new one in - leave it at that...... jobs a gooden - never lose money and get the tax back on a new mount beofre you get the first pay check from the club leasing it. :-)

[fltcom]

You could try B&Q - they have a good selection. Make sure you keep the blade nice and sharp

[IO540]

Comparing just the HP of a Thielert Diesel and a regular Lycosaurus is comparing apples to oranges. There are a lot of technical aspects that need to be taken into account, such as the HP/torque/RPM curve of the various engines, pitch setting, twist of the propellors and such, leading to endless discussions. But at the end of the day it is very simple

It is very simple - it is down to POWER. Torque etc is meaningless. Power is revs multiplied by torque, that's all.

Prop efficiency (conversion of power to thrust) reached the 80-90% band sometime after WW2 and has stayed there since.

All that matters is how much horsepower is sent to the prop. The engine could be 2-stroke, 4-stroke, turbine, or made of elastic bands.

A turbo engine will deliver more power at altitude, which is nice, especially for airways flying, but you pay for that in a substantially bigger engine fund (compare overhaul costs to see) and carrying a component which does fail suprisingly frequently. On the Diamonds you get a turbo as standard, but without it those planes would be close to useless. The DA40-TDI takeoff performance is probably at the very bottom of what is practically usable.

The climb rate of a plane will be mostly according to power and weight. Aerodynamics don't really come into it at such low speeds.

At cruise, a more slippery airframe will convert power into speed better.

Outright ownership is usually the only option for extended trips. One can do such within a well assembled syndicate, or one in which most of the members are simply too busy to fly (but haven't jumped off yet), but there are very few of those around.

Ownership - if you can afford it - is the absolute best thing for progressing one's flying and getting the max out of flying. You get total access, maintenance to your standard (very important in this business), no group disagreements on what to fit or what to repair. You also get the lowest possible marginal cost i.e. the cost of flying the next hour, and this encourages currency. Flying the same plane all the time also makes you a more proficient and safer pilot. As the Yanks say - beware the man who has only one gun, for he probably knows how to use it. Cost is the only real downside, but if you can pull it off, there is absolutely no contest.

There is a considerable learning curve though in being an owner. So many people in GA are at best incompetent and at worst outright crooks, and many of the latter prey on novices in the game, promising the earth (I am thinking esp. of flying schools looking for a cheap rent-in deal). A lot of maintenance is shoddy - a byproduct of the G-reg training scene which for the most part runs on the thinnest legal shoestring. It takes time to get oneself oriented and find out who you can trust. GA airfield politics is another wonderful area full of weird people without a life of their own who like to spread malicious gossip, so you need to keep your head down and be very careful what you say because it will be around the airfield at 150kt.

[rtl_flyer]

As a first time owner: Buy the best condition with all the avionics etc you can afford. Do NOT buy something to 'do up'! Mainternance on CofA aircraft costs a fortune and grounds the aircarft for weeks, months, years!

Avionics upgrade: Cost of avionics plus cost of avionics times three for installation.
Engine: Double any quote.
TIME....: One week = one month.
Interior re-trim: Go on holiday for a year, may be ready by then.

Seriously, buy what you want in the first place and spend all your money keeping it in as good condition. If you get a nice clean, with plenty of history aircraft you should not be too out of pocket when you upgrade years later.

Tim