FI Shortage

[Tiller Torquer]

Hello All,
Other times that the salary for FIs have been discussed on PPRuNe, it seeemed as though the new PPL FI was hourly paid and did well to make 12K p.a.
Is this beginning to change? Perhaps the hiring by airlines is finally impacting the FI market. I heard today that Cabair needs a shed load of FIs - all categories and experience levels, UK and international locations. They apparently are offering 100% sponsored FIC courses, incentives for rated FIs to join and assistance with getting into an airline career after contract. Even the dreaded winter on flight pay only is being addressed!
It does seem as though this only reaches the guys who instruct on their way to the airlines - I wonder what its going to take to get the package right for career trainers who have families to keep. Anybody see any signs that T&Cs are getting better for this group too?
TT

[VFE]

About time they realised they're not going to keep instructors on the pay system they've been operating. Personally I would sooner instruct in a flying club environment than one such as Cabair's but it's horses for courses innit.

VFE.

[Say again s l o w l y]

There is a chronic shortage of FI's at the moment, especially those who can teach further stuff such as IMC, Aero's etc.

Is it having an affect on salaries? Not yet, but it will!

[sierracharlie]

I heard today that Cabair needs a shed load of FIs
Thread in the other place (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=32995) says that Cabair Elstree has closed due to lack of instructors.
AOPA's latest edition of GA magazine also reports the instructor situation as dire.

[Anonymus6]

some places in US is offering free housing for their FI if you work for them, and some other places put you on salary instead of flight per hour.

[Tiller Torquer]

I checked and Elstree is struggling for FIs but open. It seems Cabair is a victim of its own success at getting FIs a route into the airlines - you'd think that would ensure a steady supply of FIs for them.
I liked the comment about preferring to work in a club environment - I too preferred to instruct when the emphasis was on having fun - didn't like club politics though!
I wonder if guys who have gone to the airlines will be a good source of part-timers?
TT

[adverse-bump]

anyone know what sort of package they offer?

[VFE]

They have been after instructors for months at Denham and Elstree - they called me often enough after I left for pastures new.

Do not really know what the answer is apart from offering salaried positions for a couple of career instructors to help keep the ship afloat at those airfields. If you attract the airline wannabe's then you're always going to be keeping the business on the edge surely?

All that aside, I think this is another clear sign that the aviation industry has really started to pick up it's feet, which can only be a good thing for all pilots, no matter where they stand on their respective career ladders. :)

I predict a time soon when unrestricted PPL instructors will be earning more money than some of the low cost carrier FO's in their first terms - I already do and I'm not even proper full time!

VFE.

[vic1]

Tiller Torquer,
Thanks for the info...im interested in the 100% sponsored FIC courses...Do u have any specific information about this? I am intersted in doing the course if I get sponsorship?
Thanks for any responses.

[vic1]

Hi Adverse Bump,
Check the other thread called 'FI Course'. Gives you some idea on the retaining cost and per hour rates.

[Tiller Torquer]

Hi Vic1
I think that Derek Edwards on 0208 236 2400 will give you the latest - but I think there's a range of options available depending on how long you see yourself being an FI. I got the impression that some of the details of the new package are still being worked out but you've nothing to lose by starting the ball rolling.
Hope it works out for you
TT

[expedite08]

Going back to the origional thread, the shortage of instructors is really begining to become noticable. At the club im at, the last instructor has just left for an airline job, leaving the place hung out to dry really, in the peak season!
To be honest though the place is run by complete to****rs with no idea how to run a flight school, let alone retain instructors! So they have brought the mess they are in on by themselves!! HOWEVER, this is fantastic news if you look at it closely....
These types of c***s who run schools and think they can pay instructors pitance and treat them like crap are now paying the price for this!! They will sink in to the ground and so they should!!!
Now on the other side of the coin, more attractive packages for FI' s are now being introduced by good well managed schools which is going to generally improve the conditions for instructors accross the board. The tide has turned now I think and the time for the FI to be recognised as an important assest in the flying world is showing through. Long may conditions improve. Something had to give and I think it has.

[PPRuNe Towers]

A note for school managers and CFI's reading this thread.

You know exactly what is happening in the UK training/club flying industry and many are facing increasingly difficult staffing problems.

You probably have noticed the huge traffic we have in ads from recruitment agencies and airlines over the last few years. There are places where these guys can advertise far more cheaply than here. You have quotes from or use those sites so why take the PPRuNe route?

The reason is entirely hard nosed and commercial - there are too many jobs compared to the numbers of qualified, competent pilots actively searching for work on those sites.

PPRuNe, however, is where everyone voluntarily comes every day. This is an especially important point when you consider how qualified instructors consistently express how undervalued they feel. You'll see the same airlines and agencies advertising here year after year because the psychology is entirely turned on its head and it works. It works and it happens this way:

The mountain has come to Mohammed rather than the supplicant scanning the jobsites and it effectively prompts those not presently looking for a change to apply. Opening up a whole new and huge window to applicants who never normally see your cheaper ads works. If you lose just 3 hours of training turnover that's the ad that could have prevented the situation happening in the first place.

We don't actually care whether you advertise or not. PPRuNe appears with or without ads and the years without were far simpler. No one gets any commission and the money goes back into expanding the site.

At different times some of you will remember this post. You know folks are here more times in an hour than the job sites see in a week. There is an important and proven advantage in approaching potential employees where they chose to be everyday rather than expecting them to come looking for you. Is it a shift in the way you're used to thinking? Yep, but every page you read is topped with ads from those who've realised folks feel flattered when it's you that makes all the effort to reach them. People feel entirely differently if they are effectively being headhunted.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[BolkowJunior]

As a member of a flying club that is short of instructors.... anyone know of a couple who would be interested in some part-time work at a pleasant airfield in the West Midlands?

[smnbly]

Could you please email me details of the school and job?? I may be available part time in a couple of months.

Regards

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It is certainly evident that there is a shortage.

I hope it lasts... but my SpidySense is tingling. House prices are starting to drop, interest rates bite, bond markets panic and postponing the PPL or doing less hours this year is one of the first things people do to cut back.

Or, it could be that with the baby boomers all retiring and cashing those fat 25% tax free lump sums there will be a queue of people at the school doors wanting courses and their own aircraft.

Both equally possible.

WWW

[athonite]

please see similar threads

[Jay_solo]

Ok, with this shortage of flight instructors, how easy would it be to get a FI job when you have just qualified from flight school with no instructing experience? I.e CPL/SE/ME with FI rating and 250 hours TT, but no Instrument rating :confused:

I am contemplating instructing before I head for the airlines/corporate world as I genuinely like to teach. So I may forego the Instrument rating in favour of the FI rating. Then add the IR when I can afford it later on. But I would hope instructor positions wouldn't be pitched too highly in terms of experience requirements. After all, I would be just starting out.

[Deano777]

Well I know of 2 schools who offered 2 individuals a job before they had even qualified, and both are low hr'd guys

D.

[Jay_solo]

Ok, does anyone know any flight schools who have a sponsor program for obtaining the instructor rating with them and then landing a job?

[Croqueteer]

:sad:When I sat my commercial flight test, the examiner said to keep up my instructor rating to keep contact between airline and flying club, but unfortunately the CAA makes this almost impossible now. I would have to jump through numerous hoops, financial and training wise to re-validate, when all I should need is half a day with an examiner.

[VFE]

See Cabair have an advert up the top of the main forums page now asking for instructors. Nice to see PPT's suggestion being implimented!

VFE.

[PPRuNe Towers]

It's actually a very simple psychological hurdle for them to have leapt mate,

Having advertised here for students over many years the big, residential schools know that public access machines are locked into PPRuNe - it's right in front of their eyes. I've found this at every school I've visited. In truth the place we are weakest is within the FBO/Bizjet world as I pass through and inspect the bookmarks:}:}

It's folks like those at Nottingham's Truman that made the leap of faith last year and included an intructor ad as part of their general promotion. They paved the way.

Rob

[florida flamingo]

Try with Sabena Flight Academy. www.sfa.be Good luck!

[Pilotdom]

I work shifts and would happily do a sponsored FI course in return for my services to a particular club. Anybody know of any clubs oooopppp north doing that?

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I've been working for the airlines for several years now, and always had good intentions to keep up instructing, which ever materialzed. To be honest I decided not to, as especially after 9/11 I thought the last thing FIs at a local club would want is an off-duty airline pilot to come along, take some of their work, when they were looking at a long future in a C152. I know I would have felt frustrated in their position.

However reading these posts it looks like times are a-changing and the part-time instructor can work without upsetting too many people. Is it worth revalidating my FI rating? Is most of the work around ab-initio PPL stuff, or is it the qualified pilot looking to add ratings? Also where is the pleasant airfield in the West Midlands?

regards

AVCP
(from the West Midlands!)

[deice]

Don't know if it is a sign of the industry taking a leap forward but it does seem like a significant amount of instructors have been sucked into "proper" jobs all over the place (Sweden for example). I'm starting my FI course two weeks from now and the school I'll be working at eventually already has students planned for me! :ooh:
I'd be the first in line for a career in instructing if they could provide a decent salary - got the house full of kids and instructing does bring you home each night (almost) but I'm worried about eating crumbs, specially come winter...
Just out of curiosity, how many would accept instructing as a career instead of 6-8 short legs per day to and from the same locations? Is the "proper" flying job really more fun, or is it just the pay?

[Blackshift]

VFE

... and to think you suspected me of "sniffing the bostik" when I predicted this scenario a little less than a year ago! :p

[Jinkster]

Without thread wandering.....

People that are interested in becoming Flying Instructors to build hours for airlines, go and do it!! I did - well worth it

and when the time comes to line training, lots of the training captains are ex-flying instructors themselves and you will earn alot of respect from them!!

Good luck!!!

[smith]

I've been working for the airlines for several years now, and always had good intentions to keep up instructing, which ever materialzed. To be honest I decided not to, as especially after 9/11 I thought the last thing FIs at a local club would want is an off-duty airline pilot to come along, take some of their work, when they were looking at a long future in a C152. I know I would have felt frustrated in their position.



In the airline industry you are restricted to 900hours per year, does instructing eat into this 900 hours as it is for reimbursment or does it not restrict your airline hours? Are the airlines happy for you to have this side job?

[A Very Civil Pilot]

In the airline industry you are restricted to 900hours per year, does instructing eat into this 900 hours as it is for reimbursment or does it not restrict your airline hours? Are the airlines happy for you to have this side job?


Yes, 900 hours limit. (As my lot send us around in taxis all over the place, there is very little chance of getting near 900hours, more like 500-600)
Yes, paid instruction counts for flight time limitations. (Unpaid beow 1600kg doesn't, I think).
Yes, airlines do allow it, usually just ask the fleet manager or chief pilot for permission.

[rons22]

Cabair FI option sounds interesting provided it is not just another marketing campaing. :mad: Has anyone tried it?
I couldn't see requirement for number of hours flown or qualifications.
You would expect them to specify the type of pilot they are looking for?

[VFE]

It is not often I am happy to admit being wrong Blacknight! :)

VFE.

[porridge]

All very well to offer - but do they have the resources to do the FI training? Not at the moment I believe!

[Mister Geezer]

Yes, 900 hours limit. (As my lot send us around in taxis all over the place, there is very little chance of getting near 900hours, more like 500-600)
Yes, paid instruction counts for flight time limitations. (Unpaid below 1600kg doesn't, I think).
Yes, airlines do allow it, usually just ask the fleet manager or chief pilot for permission.

The CAA now frown on paid instructing during your days off or certainly the FOI that my company deals with certainly has taken a firm stance on the matter. It is a clear sign of how unimportant the CAA see the development of G/A in this country and with the Multi Pilot commercial licence on the horizon, it is clear that the CAA now see that G/A plays no part in the development of our industry as a whole.... How wrong can they be?

As time goes on I have been requested to jump through one hoop and then another as dictated by the CAA and now I am forced to instruct for free - which does not bother me personally but there will be some out there who would like/need the money! Paid instruction on a day off is no longer counted, as a day off which is ridiculous! I find instructing falls into the category of being a pastime and not a job or else I why would I be doing it my own time. If the CAA are so worried that I may tire myself out whilst instructing then why can I still be (for example) a adventure sports instructor on my days off and tire myself out doing all manner of lively activities yet I can't do a single trip in a light piston single? It is just ridiculous! Do the CAA actually think that we will be willing to flog ourselves to death on our days off so that we start work absolutely knackered... or perhaps those in the CAA that have flown have forgotten the responsibilities that are placed upon me when I sign the skippers acceptance at my 'day job'. I am certainly not going to risk loosing my little green book for being too tired due to instructing when I am on a day off!

[PPRuNe Towers]

Park in the Belgrano and switch modes - why should GA be developed?

Effectively, what proportion of any of the last ten years of CPL/ATPLs spent any time in GA?

Is there a case to be made that as the vast, vast majority of pro pilots trained will go into an airline flight deck farting around with pretending to be a self briefing, route planning, met gathering single handed IFR pilot a completely invalid and expensive exercise?

A one arm Florida suntan hour building doesn't count as developing UK GA.

Pro flying or qualifying for it is totally and utterly divorced from GA. The fact is that airline guys like me with a foot in both camps are complete freaks and statistical anomalies in the CAA's eyes - and they are right.

Anyone who works in a significantly sized UK airline knows that the guy who flies anything, anything at all, outside of work forms the tiniest of minorities.

Lets train for reality not how we wish it was. That means a different track for PPL/IMC/IR GA CPL versus what the rest of us do.

You'd never accept an astonomer as also being an astrologer as anything other than a joke about a dyslexic but that's exactly what Issac Newton was if you actually read his works rather than revised and respectful history. He saw them as part and parcel of the same thing. It's now impossible to take someone seriously if they claim to be both.

GA doesn't do anything in their eyes and it's perfectly understandable. The numbers do not lie. There are very few GA savvy blokes there and they aren't in sexy departments. Meanwhile the Jumbolina accident report put paid to any flight ops inspector loudly encouraging us to put time back into training. The liability effect, legal or career wise made it a non starter even at companies where you fly nowhere near 900 hours. End Ex.

Rob

[Say again s l o w l y]

Why should the CAA care about GA? How about the fact that the vast majority of a/c they are responsible for fall under the category of a "GA machine."

Airliners make up a very small proprtion of the Bitish "fleet" and anyone who thinks that your average Boeing or AIrbus is "sexy" needs their head examining!

If this is the case (as it seems to be) then that is a very sad state of affairs.

Having the odd airline jockey do some part time Instructing can only be a good thing. I like to think of all of us as part of a community of like-minded individuals. I couldn't care less what someone flies, if they are an enthusiast and do what they say, then they are welcome.

A pity this attitude doesn't seem to extend to our regulators or management, flying is changing from the exciting career it once was to a grind and the more I think about it, the happier I am that I have left the airline world behind me.

[BlueRobin]

Based on current demand for PPL, would your average club be able to afford to give more wages to its instructors? Pay more to achieve better retention might be feasible, but is it affordable?

[Mister Geezer]

Effectively, what proportion of any of the last ten years of CPL/ATPLs spent any time in GA?

How many of your airline colleagues spent time as an instructor... A sizable proportion and not a minority and asking new F/Os that have just joined is unfair since the self-improver route no longer exists.

With the self-improver route now gone and with modular trained pilots now being able to walk into a job after a few hundred hours, there is no need for new guys to grab a FI rating and built their experience. End result is that flying clubs loose business, customers get brassed off and in the worst case flying clubs close and people loose jobs.

Pro flying or qualifying for it is totally and utterly divorced from GA.

Not quite... remember that to start your ATPL exams on a modular course who need a PPL and a 100 hours and this is where the local flying club comes into play. There is no point getting FTOs to advertise for instructors since there is simply not enough out there. At my flying club there are no full time instructors... just airline chaps doing their bit for G/A. The PPL industry will fall flat on its face if airline pilots who wish to instruct are restricted from doing so.

GA doesn't do anything in their eyes and it's perfectly understandable

Unfortunately true since outside that grey building... is a large world that they are sadly not in touch with!

[Irv]

I was in Jerez last week with BM Aviation. They were looking for instructors there and I had to point out their requirements are wrong - they should be looking for instructors with criminal records - they can't move on to the airlines!

[2close]

Just one point about FTE Jerez, before anyone gets their hopes up too much, you MUST have an IR which they do not have the time to put you through themselves and the starting pay is about £ 20 K (GBP).

Apart from that, it sounds quite interesting, both in terms of experience gained and location.

[Irv]

it's not FTE Jerez - it's BM aviation, so no I/R required

[2close]

Yes, I saw that Irv, hence the reason I edited my post to add 'FTE' to avoid confusion.

Any chance you could PM me with a contact at BM, please. Thanks.

[papazulu]

Did U mean..IRI (Instrument Rating Instructor)...? Pretty usless to have a FI ticket (CPL though) with no IR...:E

Still so stiff on minimum experience (1000TT, 500 dual given) and ratings (IRI, MEIR...)?

Criminal records...I have some, mainly unpaid speeding and parking tickets. Would those count...? :E

PZ :ok:

[geordiejet]

Hey. Anyone know what the turnover is like for instructors in NCL/MME and other schools in the area? I am really hoping to have my CPL/IR/FIC in the coming months and would love to instruct close to home - and save on renting a place as I can live at home :-)

Also going to do my CPL/FIC (I think!) with a school I would quite like to work for. So hopefully that might put me in a good position. I see some of them have adverts for instructors right now, but nothing much said about the specific requirements.

Also, I am mindful that I would have missed 'the season' by time I qualify - do many places actually take FIs on during the Winter months?

Cheers.

[VFE]

do many places actually take FIs on during the Winter months?

Try Cabair.

VFE.

[sidtheesexist]

Mr Geezer - agree totally with the contents of your first post. I hope this much talked about shortage really does exist - that way more instructors might get paid a fair wage for a fair day's work - that isn't too much to ask is it? The added benefit of improved wages is that you might retain more career instructors giving the obvious benefit of a greater pool of experience which will improve the quality of instruction - everyone wins!! I instructed for about 3 yrs and it's bloody hard work even when you're experienced and up to speed. I really hope that terms and conditions improve for you guys.

[portsharbourflyer]

Well if you have all checked out the most recent edition of Flight Training News then you will see there was a whole page of adverts for instructor vacancies across the UK. So yes the instructor shortage does appear to be real.

[combineharvester]

with regards to the FTN shortage feature. RF's/FTO's were offered free adverts for this feature & as you can imagine, most took them up on it! May have clouded the clarity of the real situation. As with the airlines, it appears to be a shortage of experienced people, rather than those fresh out of training.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I think that is always true really. If the advertisers in FTN didn't need FI's though, they wouldn't have put in a free advert either, so it probably is a fair representation of the market.

[Flying Lion]

For the next Month Stapleford Flight Centre are offering guaranteed jobs to graduates from their FIC obviously subject to interview prior to commencing course & a reasonable standard shown during training but it will take the risk away for a few guys or gals:

[geordiejet]

I couldnt see anything about that on the SFC site, can you give me a source for that info?

[Flying Lion]

ring FIC CFI Keith Pogmore who will confirm it 01708-688380

[wingisland]

Is it true that a flying school in coventry is offering big pay for new FI's, i also heard some places in Scotland are offering up to £25k a year for new FI's?

[Tc Matic]

Has anyone tried Sabena Flight Academy in Belgium? Well paid and FI training is sponsored + you get the chance to upgrade to instrument and multi-engine instructor, which is also paid by them.

[athonite]

Are we talking about a commercial school at Coventry, since I cant imagine the other three PPL schools have the cash?

[BlueRobin]

Almat at Coventry are after (or recently have been) after new instructors. How much Glynn pays I don't know.

[athonite]

Almat at EGBE are charging £98.98 dual and £79.00 solo on a rather old C150's, so if Glynn is generous enough to pay the instructor the difference between dual and solo, for instructional flights, thats £19.98/ hour.

So based on an average of 3 hours flying a day thats £59.94 a day or based on an 8 hour day is £7.49, dont forget you will be self employed, so after tax, national insurance, medicals, insurance, security pass, parking, renewals, travel, your guaranteed to fall below the minimun wage!

This is the reason why some schools are unable to find instructors!

[Say again s l o w l y]

I have to say I know fall into the category of someone who limits his instructing because of the pay.

If I'm only going to be earning £20/hr and the school only has 3-4 students, then why should I take time away from earning enough to pay my mortgage?

Schools really do need to get into the modern age and get to grips with all the dodgy practices that go on. The hooky "self employment" when you are nothing like it, not having proper company insurances, not providing any training or career development for their staff etc. etc.

It's nice to see however that there are some schools starting to come out of the dark ages with decent retainers and hourly rates or even god forbid salaries!

I only now go in when someone calls me and tells me there is going to be X amount of flying. My days of hanging around schools waiting for the phone to ring or just getting a couple of hours in are long gone and I suspect the same for many of us.

It will make a difference, but since most flying school owners are business incompetents of the highest order it will take a while for this to sink in!

[athonite]

I think the days of 'self employment' for Flying Instructors are coming to and end, as I understand it HM Customs and Excise are starting to crack down in this area. This will require a major rethink on costings for training flying schools.

[MadamBreakneck]

It will make a difference, but since most flying school owners are business incompetents of the highest order it will take a while for this to sink in!

We should be thankful. If people only ran flying schools on the basis of a sound business case there'd be a lot less instructor jobs out there.

:confused:

[Say again s l o w l y]

:confused::confused:

If most flying schools had sound business plans and looked at the numbers, then there would be far less failing on a regular basis.
How can companies running on tiny margins and often at a loss, so therefore no inward investment is ever going to happen, be good for anything??

Sorry but ALL business should be run on the basis of a sound financial planning and control, that goes for charities aswell as multi-national corporations. Flying schools should berun to make a profit. it doesn't matter if they are non profit making organisations, that just means the money goes back into the business rather than ending up in someone's pocket.

Madam Breakneck I'm afraid your comment doesn't stack up IMO.

[MadamBreakneck]

Madam Breakneck I'm afraid your comment doesn't stack up IMO
Ah, but was it meant to? The theory is that flying instructors don't need a viable business to work for, just one that's still operating . Students ideally need one which will last long enough for them to achieve whatever licence or rating they're after. Somebody will have sold the school an aircraft or two and as long as they are paid for, they don't care about the school's business model.
So, instructors get work, second hand aircraft have a sales channel, students get flying at less than true cost, and the business operator runs on hope for as long as the money lasts. Seems reasonable to me, hence the old joke - how do you make a small fortune in aviation? Start with... :oh:
MadamB
:hmm:

[db16]

I hear that £18k has been offered for a newly q'd FI(R) north of hadrians wall! db16

[Say again s l o w l y]

Yes that is how it's been for a long time, but how does that lead to a stronger, larger industry?

Businesses that make profit can advertise, therefore more students, more students means lower running costs as the costs are shared by more people, more people mean a more stable business so investment is less of a risk, which means you can buy better/newer a/c, which in turn brings in more people. Etc.etc.etc.etc.

I would rather work for a stable company with less chance of closing the doors one night and just not reopening them. Leaving students in the lurch and me without wages. I don't work for free. Should I be asking for my pay at the end of each flying day?

So again, the current system works does it?

Hmm do I detect the hint of sarcasm in your posts!

[athonite]

I would advise all 'self employed' instructors to agree terms this must include:

(a) Invoice at the end of each week (Sunday), payment within 5 days by bacs(Friday) or 3 days by cheque (Wednesday). Remember the student pays, usually, after each sortie, so if the school can't pay, there probably insolvent. This was a great bit of advice from a solicitor friend a number of years ago.

(b) Insist on be paid for solo authorisations, if the student is paying dual for solo flying, while not qualified, you should be paid the full instructional rate.

(c) Agree, a fee for handling cash or credit card payments on behalf of students, Barclaycard charges 2%, so you should ask for the same cut.

(d) You could ask to be paid for refueling on say a 2% basis.

(c) Ensure that any briefings or training other than preflight briefing (>15 mins) should be charged for.

Finally, for those who are using instructing as a means to progress onto the airlines. Remember airlines are looking for people who can negotiate and are assertive. So at your airline interview you might need to explain, as a 'self employed' instructor, how you negotiated business terms with you flying school. An airline is not going to be impressed by someone who couldn't negotiate better than the minimum wage.

[BEagle]

An excellent way to find yourself out on your ear, athonite.

Charging 2% to help refuelling, indeed.

Sure a school could meet your 'terms'. All you have to do is to find some students happy enough to pay the extra needed to meet your 'negotiated' demands.

It isn't going to happen.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Can't agree with any of that Athonite.

There are certain jobs which may not be seen as flying instruction, but are part of the role. Briefings are cerrtainly part of the job though.

At most decent schools you should have support to help the program run smoothly. If you have to refuel, you aren't being efficient, if you have to process a payment, you aren't being efficient.

So a well run school shouldn't need you to do any of this, but if you do on the odd occasion, remember a school is a team and we all need to muck in doing a range of tasks to keep the show on the road.

That is what airlines are looking for, not some bolshy person who works to rule. Not my job guv'.

[athonite]

The point I was trying to make, was that an instructor should be paid 'quatum meruit' (as much as the job is worth). In other words to be paid for all tasks related to the job, including briefing, fueling, administration, pre-flight checks, de-icing and flight instruction. Not just for flight instruction.

The best solution is for the instructor to be paid an hourly rate for the time he/she spends on duty. The hourly rate should reflect the non flying duties, so if the school does not have admin support or a refueller that is replected in the pay. This is easier from an invoicing and payment perpective.

My experience is that students are prepared to pay for a four hour block training session (morning/afternoon/evening) at a fixed hourly rate, regardless of if we are airbourne.

My understanding is that at some schools in the States charge the student from when he/she walks through the door. Perhaps someone from over the pond can clarify this?

[Say again s l o w l y]

That I do agree with. It is ridiculous really that an FI is only paid whilst airbourne, since to the job properly takes a lot more than just the flying.

I have lost count of the hours I've spent sitting in briefing rooms or answering the bl***y phones or just doing general administrative duties. Briefing pre and post flight is fine, but sending hours explaining the intricacies of met or another subject and not getting a penny for doing it?.....

It would be far fairer to pay an houry rate from turn up time to leaving time, but most schools will never do it. Why, because they can't afford it, so see my earlier points about why it's rubbish working for the vast majority of schools in the UK.

There are good schools out there, they are just in the minority.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

From the HMRC http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/index.htm


As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:

* Do they have to do the work themselves?
* Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
* Can they work a set amount of hours?
* Can someone move them from task to task?
* Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
* Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?

If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:
* Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
* Do they risk their own money?
* Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
* Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
* Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
* Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
* Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?

Most flying instructors are in reality employed.

[Say again s l o w l y]

In that case we are all employed really!

[wingisland]

Just want to say that my current school is very good, i get paid a fair flying wage and a decent retainer, my school is also so busy they are turning away students so i'm kept very busy, the only problem is the weather which is why i'm dreading the winter, retainer is good, but it isn't that good!

To be honest, i'd rather earn less, but have a guaranteed wage, then its a lot easier to work my finances.

[QNH 1013]

In that case we are all employed really!

Well I'm self-employed. I negotiate the rate I am to be paid with each company I work for, and this is not always the same as they pay others. If other people want to work for less, then thats fine by me, but I never seem short of work. I also charge VAT. I quote a vat exclusive price to flying schools, but I quote a vat inclusive price to my own students. Oh, and I decide when and where I work, but once I have agreed to fly for someone on a particular day, I never let them down.

It can be done. I think the mistake many instructors make is not believing in themselves and so lacking the confidence to ask for and expect a sensible rate. If you don't ask, you won't get, or in other words, if you seem happy working for peanuts, why should anyone offer you more?

[portsharbourflyer]

QNH1013, have you ever actually been formally audited for IR35 compliance?
I would say that as an FI(R) it is impossible to legally self employed.



When I was a engineering contractor and enquired if my part time instructional work could be invoiced though my umbrella company then the answer was no.

As an FI it is possible to be self employed, but check your paperwork carefully.

Several individuals have worked on a self employed or Ltd basis for several years, only five years later find themselves facing an audit to confirm the self employed status and find themselves facing a bill for additional tax.

[QNH 1013]

Portsharbourflyer,

Several individuals have worked on a self employed or Ltd basis for several years, only five years later find themselves facing an audit to confirm the self employed status and find themselves facing a bill for additional tax

If you are operating as a Ltd company then you are not self-employed. You are an employee of the Ltd company.

[portsharbourflyer]

My phrasesology was imprecise;


But just becasue you have set up a limited company offering instructional services does not necessarily mean you are fully IR35 compliant.

[VFE]

To charge for refuelling and handling cash is taking things a little too far. No instructor expects to be paid for breathing at the school but a balance that is better than the current state of affairs at many schools is called for and with the much publicised shortage of instructors one hopes this will soon be the case. I am apid a daily retainer and an hourly rate when airbourne. I am quite happy with this arrangement however when I first qualified I was being paid an hourly rate whilst airbourne and no retainer. This was a practically useless arrangement during the winter months because some flyable days were missed as I was not willing to take the gamble of driving the considerable distance to work when the weather was a 50/50 day. That didn't work for the school or me so as I say - a balance is required.

I personally would not wish for the extra hassle that would follow such a clear defined arrangement as the one Athonite describes as it's bound to lead to disagreements and tension. Far better to be more mature about it with an employer who has an ounce of common sense enough to recognise the role is varied and non-standard in general terms therefore a retainer + flight pay is the only way if a salaried position is not possible.

VFE.

[timzsta]

Recent editions of FI and FTN make for interesting reading regarding the FI shortage.

The "Industry" as a whole has engineered as that fellow in the FI article put it - "the only thing you need to get into the RHS of a jet these days is a mastercard". The airlines discovered the "pay for your type rating" route was a good little way of saving money in the era of "budget airline". No longer do you need to have gained flying experience as an FI/Air Taxi pilot to get that first job with the airlines.

The flying schools have to take blame too. FI wages have been kept low for a long time - the £15 per flying hour wage has been around too long. The result is now we have an FI shortage the increase in wages required represents a significant increase in the cost of learning to fly.

Add on top of that the regulatory authorities introducing the requirement to hold a CPL to paid for instruction and you further reduce the numbers of people who consider taking up Flying Instruction. I just read a recent edition of FTN where somebody quite rightly questioned why you had to know how to navigate a 747 over the Atlantic and how many fire extinguishers it needed in order to teach someone for a PPL in a 152. The problem will only get worse once the Multi Crew License comes to fruition. You will have even more pilots unable to go down the FI route.

The answer is complex and is probably going to result in the next generation of trainee pilots having to spend more to achieve their dream.

1. The regulators need to re-introduce the old BCPL to enable people to be paid to teach PPL without a full CPL/fATPL.
2. Flying Schools need to pay Instructors a fair wage so people can make a living from it.
3. The airlines need to adopt some sort of quota systems for recruitment to ensure that in the long run the are able to meet recruitment requirements. Take on such a percentage of people with a Multi Crew License, a percentage of experienced on type, a percentage of low hours integrated paid for type rating sorts and a percentage of modular people who have gone down the FI/Air Taxi route. At the moment the Integrated/Type rating route seems to be the preferred option of the airlines so thats the way people are going.

At the busy airfield I instruct part time at I am the youngest FI on the airfield - I am age 30. Of the 8 Instructors on my clubs board 4 are BCPL holders. 5 are over age 50 and one is over age 70. These fellows aren't going to be around much longer and there replacements arent on the horizon.

[VFE]

So will/can instructor wages increase? The only way it seems possible is if flying schools put customer prices up - maybe that's the only way they'll get dedicated career instructors too? One thing is for certain - if I could earn a reasonable living from what I love doing (instructing) I would continue doing so until retirement because my own moral assessment of the airline game these days is that they can farkin' shove it up their arrogant greedy bums!

VFE.

[Say again s l o w l y]

VFE, you have seen the light! Airline flying is as boring a job as can be envisaged. You spend your life being ar*ed around by crewing and Ops, then get mucked about by the little Hitlers in security uniforms and then get mucked around by Ops and Crewing again........

Woop de Doo. Then the company you work for goes bust, so your pension goes by the wayside and you end up dagging your family across the country to start at the bottom of another seniority list. Yippee!

Flying instruction may pay badly but it's better than that! The only thing that has ever attracted me to airline work is the money. Not exactly the basis of a long career is it?

Being an FI is so much more rewarding in every sense except financial apart from the ego driven sense of "gotta fly big aircraft".

Hmmm, Pitts or Boeing. What would you rather fly?

If it's Boeing, please leave the FI forum!

[VFE]

Easy to say if that is what you experienced as an airline pilot but there are parrallells with instructing too; such as: unsociable hours (ie; every weekend!), the weather disrupting our schedules, flying schools constantly going bust, selling up or downsizing fleets... But despite that we still love it.

Talking purely about the job in general and not the instruction side itself particularly - what I like most about my current employment status is that there are no little Hitlers controlling my working day! I pitch up, A-check the aeroplanes amongst the glorious english countryside, teach my students how to fly properly (my favourite part), occassionally have to indulge in some boring paperwork (but not very often!) and then I am home at the end of each day within 5 minutes. The people I work with are decent people who enjoy the job for the same reasons as myself - there's almost an unspoken rule that we'll enjoy each working day because we all understand the passion! As you say, the airlines aren't that understanding.

Pitts or Boeing? Gotta be Pitts!! :)

VFE.

[Spunk]

FI shortage...
... well one more on his way. Got my restriction removed today ;-)

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

The current weather won't help the instructor shortage. There must be a few who have given it up and found other jobs just to make some money?

[chiplight2005]

Since you are all saying there is a FI shortage, which I do not doubt, can anyone of you tell me where the best place is to do the course and then get a job afterwards?? I have been to a few schools but not all good.

Cheers!! :ok:

[jamestkirk]

A school in the netherlands ot the UK?

[chiplight2005]

Well I would rather go to a school in the UK James Kirk. :O Sorry my mistake for not pointing that out.

[Andi]

CHIP,
did my FIC in Spain last year.Got a job instructing in Southwest England (big,big,big privately owned Airfield) ;)
We need Flight Instructors!FI(R)s not a problem.
If u are intersted,drop me a PM,
greets Andi
happy landings.

[BlueRobin]

There are a number of places UK PPL schools call on to see if they have any instructors available. Some examples, one is On-Track (http://www.ontrackaviation.com/) another is Chris Caine at The Flight Centre (http://www.hgfc.co.uk/)

[lady in red]

It is indeed true that we have an instructor shortage. I am an FIC instructor and I cannot train enough instructors to satisfy my airfield! I usually average 40 hours a month flying because of the amount of ground school on the course but this month (despite the awful weather) I have done 70 hours. I am tired! I need instructors who want to stay in the career and qualify as FIC instructors - every time I identify someone suitable he goes and joins an airline. It is reasonably well paid compared to PPL instructing and you get paid for ground school so consider staying in the job and progressing - this is where the career instructors should be.

[GoodGrief]

progressing ? where to ?
from flying patterns up to head of training hardly flying and fighting the feds about paperwork ?

Congrats Spunk to your full FI:ok:

[BlueRobin]

LiR, sounds an interesting test (8 hours) for the FIC. How well paid incidentally? :)

[lady in red]

Good Grief
Apologies if I am thick, but I do not understand your post
Blue Robin
Send me a PM and I will respond

[RVR800]

The CAA will consult the 'industry' on the need for expensive and difficult exams in professional flying

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/137/Instructor%20Shortages.pdf

[negativeROC]

Am I just stoopid or what. If we need a JAR CPL FI(A) (and all the cost and stuff that goes with it) to teach then how does the economic climate, airline recruitment and all else change this? Someone, somewhere, sometime decided that this was a requirement. If this is now (potentially) no longer the case is this decision maker going to fall on his sword and forfeit his final salary government pension to reimburse me for all of my "uneccesary" training as someone who only ever wanted to teach? Shortage or not. What we should or should not need to know can't change that much in such a short space of time. The majority of the fleet I teach on hasn't changed in 30 years, how can the training, education and skill level of those teaching need to change so much when the equipment hasn't? Maybe a C152 was easy to fly before JAR then got harder since JAR hence we needed to know more but it is set to get easier again, that must be it.................or maybe I am just stoopid?

[lady in red]

I am being asked all the time when I will have any candidates ready for employment and most of my FI graduates have been offered jobs before they are half way through the course - sometimes right at the beginning. I cannot train enough people to satisfy the demand for instructors more or less everywhere in the southeast.

[VNA Lotus]

Hi guys,

anyone tried Sabena flight academy ?? as a FI ? got an interview, something like that ?

thank you very much

VNA

[SkyCamMK]

Need at least one now! Possibly also a part timer too for Sundays.

Cranfield Based but not at Cabair could make £25k+ OTE

FI or FI(R) acceptable prefer IMC qual but seems a rare breed now

Career FI is not that common in my experience but needed.

I am 55 this year and ready to go part time casual.

Advert in Flight and Pilot from next week...

Come on down?

[BlueRobin]

I'd be slightly tempted with Cranfield. Someone order good weather so I can get a better average than 3-4 hours flying per week and finish my course :(

AIUI FTE-sponsored students start at On-Track soon (see their website)

[yazkenya]

Hello,

I've been reading this thread and was wondering what the posibilities would be for me to get a work permit to work in the UK. I have been instructing in Kenya for about 6 years.i have over 3000hrs and have instructed on C-150, C-152, C-172, C-206, C-208(CARAVAN), C-210rg, PA-28. Any advice would be appreciated. i could be contacted on [email protected],

Thank you

[BlueRobin]

That's something you really need to take up with Immigration I guess?
http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/