Joining a VOR hold

[Notsonew]

Reading PANOPS I cannot make head or tail of the acceptable joins. A bombastic 'knowall' said the joins are exactly the same as joining the ADF hold. I know he is wrong. There is no 70 degree line for starters. The join along the reciprocal of the inbound track isn't called a parallel join by PANOPS. Any clues?

Oh, another subject. Given that there is NO dip at 90 degrees to the ADF transmitter why do some schools still insist that timing in the ADF hold when outbound can only be when the wings are level -why not as you pass the abeam wings level or not ?

[nimbostratus]

If you 'know' that this 'bombastic 'knowall' ' is wrong, surely this must mean that you know what is right.
At the risk of seeming a bombastic knowall, I use the same procedure (sector 1 (parallel), sector 2 (offset) and sector 3 (direct (D and d))) on both VOR and NDB Holds. I don't see how you could do it differently. In the second part of your post you refer to an ADF transmitter :(

[shaun ryder]

:{The same procedures are also used by the FMS when programmed to enter a VOR hold in an airliner. Pipe down.

[Wrong Stuff]

On your first point, your friend is absolutely correct for the majority of VOR holds. Where the hold is based over the VOR, the joins are exactly the same as for a hold over an NDB, with the three standard entry sectors. Where VOR hold entries can differ is either where the hold is at the intersection of two VOR radials or where it's defined by a radial and a DME distance. In those cases, the entries are limited to the inbound track, a published track or by radar vectoring. If you look in PANOPS Doc 8168 Vol I, there's a pretty good representation of the different entries from different directions. In reality I think the hold entry options are best summed up as "do something sensible". VOR holds based on intersections or radial/DME are relatively rare and usually the expected entry is blindingly obvious - for example when you're approaching along the inbound track.

On the second point, the abeam position will only be at 90 degrees to the aircraft either in nil wind or where the wind is blowing parallel to the hold axis. If there's any wind component across the hold, your outbound track will have wind correction added to it, which can be quite a significant amount on the outbound leg even if the inbound wind correction is small. With, say, a not uncommon 30 degree wind correction angle, the NDB will be at 60 degrees to the aircraft axis, and the ADF will suffer from dip errors with any bank on.

[fireflybob]

The best place to start the outbound timing is when abeam the fix (NDB, VOR etc), ie when on a bearing at 90 degrees to the axis. If the abeam position cannot easily be determined (usually because you only have an RBI an opposed to RMIs) then outbound timing should commence when established on the outbound "heading".

Hold entry procedures the same for all types of "fix" unless published otherwise.

Hope this helps.

[Oktas8]

Oh, another subject. Given that there is NO dip at 90 degrees to the ADF transmitter why do some schools still insist that timing in the ADF hold when outbound can only be when the wings are level -why not as you pass the abeam wings level or not ?

Because PANSOPS says so. Outbound timing commences when passing abeam the holding fix or when reaching wings level, whichever occurs later. But I don't know why this rule exists, as fireflybob's seems eminently sensible. Any comments?

How to tell when abeam VOR without an RMI:
- When to/from flag changes, if VOR is set to inbound track, or
- When DME-based groundspeed reads zero.

Regards to all,
O8

[Notsonew]

Thanks everyone.
Yes it is a NDB transmitter not an ADF. How many millions of gallons of fuel burnt in flying holds in the FTOs ?
I can see the point that if you turn outbound in a NDB hold with a big (3 or 2 times single drift) then the fore and aft axis of the aircraft is probably never going to make a 90 degree angle to the transmitter. So, ( I think) you are never going to be able to say that there is absolutely no dip. Am I right? So, you have not absolutely determined the abeam position. So, you might as well time from wings level and knock off some seconds for not starting the stopwatch exactly abeam. But how much? Why not take a sneaky look at the DME range at the end of the outbound leg or if no DME then that very useful GPS.

The VOR joins I now half understand.But, if, you track 313 to a hold and supposedly on that track you cross over the fix of DTY 240 /22 DME (inbound is actually 060) are you direct join? Sorry, I haven't got Panops in front of me and if it was a FIX determined by a VOR tx on the ground I could happily say fly wings level after crossing the fix for 'angle' (73 degrees) to the inbound track divide by 10 times 2, answer in seconds. Then turn outbound.

Cheers

[BEagle]

I understood that, for 'holding procedures in controlled airspace', where a fix is defined by bearing and range from a facility, the hold shall be entered either along the defining bearing or, if this is not possible, on the defining range arc.

So you track inbound to DTY 240/60 either on 240 or 060 if joining via the radial, 330 or 150 if joining via the DME range. But not 313.

Trying to navigate to brg/range fixes and join any other way is an artificiality beloved up by FTOs who perhaps have ex-RAF staff who used to practise this daft idea..

[Oktas8]

But, if, you track 313 to a hold and supposedly on that track you cross over the fix of DTY 240 /22 DME (inbound is actually 060) are you direct join? Sorry, I haven't got Panops in front of me and if it was a FIX determined by a VOR tx on the ground I could happily say fly wings level after crossing the fix for 'angle' (73 degrees) to the inbound track divide by 10 times 2, answer in seconds. Then turn outbound.

Well, as Beagle says, this is not likely to happen in real life.

I realise you're based in the UK. But pages 12 to 14 of this document (http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/ENR_1.5.pdf) explain it much more simply than PANSOPS and are essentially identical to UK procedures anyway. You might like to spend a minute looking at it - or the UK equivalent.

BTW, it's PANSOPS - the S stands for "Services". Sorry to be pedantic about it! :\

[bookworm]

Because PANSOPS says so. Outbound timing commences when passing abeam the holding fix or when reaching wings level, whichever occurs later.

What PANS-OPS section 6 says is:

1.3.4 Start of outbound timing
Outbound timing begins over or abeam the fix, whichever occurs later. If the abeam position cannot be determined, start timing when the turn to outbound is completed.

Not quite sure what "over the fix" would mean, but it seems to make clear that you should start timing when you know you're abeam, wings level or not.

[whitehorse]

Couldn´t agree more with Oktas8. The only difference between a normal VOR/NDB and Radial/DME hold is the option of the radial DME join for the later.
.... and the only difference between the principal of a Hold and a Race Track is that after completing the joining proceedure you can go straight to the beacon when joining the hold and in a Race Track you must be aligned with the inbound track having completed the joining proceedure before crossing the becon or radial/DME - why?:ugh: