Short Night Stops.

[Miserlou]

I wonder if anyone would care to share here their company's attitude regarding production after short night stops.

To clarify, I mean check-in for one sector(1.5-2 hrs) in the evening then a short night stop (more than 4 but less than 8 hours) followed by 3 sectors(6-7hrs) the following day.
It is legal but some companies can't see the difference between 3 then 1 and 1 then 3. Other companies only permit a return to base after the short night stop. The crews know the difference.

Does your company or union permit this?

Does anyone have any data, studies or reports on this type of duty?

What is your own opinion?

For my part, I consider that using the 1 then 3 is the company lining up the first hole or two on the accident cheese chain.

[BOAC]

Not ideal, I would agree, but no restrictions on the sector planning in JAROPS.

In any case I cannot make your figures work on JAROPS FDP limits! :confused:I make that up to around 18 hours FDP which is a heck of a split duty extension for 4 sectors!

BTW, in JAROPS that is not a 'night stop' but a 'rest period'.

[Miserlou]

Thanks BOAC.

Yes it is a rest period in JAROPS terms but a night stop in the colloquial.

[BOAC]

So, being nosey:) what are your FDP limits for the duty? The reason for my being 'pedantic' was that rules for 'night stops' as you know are different to split dutes.

I reckon I'd be close to trashed at the end of sector 3. It was bad enough in BA doing 3 after an 11hr min rest night stop in the middle of a 5 day trip.

[Miserlou]

We have a couple of duties which are planned to 20 minutes short of the maximum. We use the point system, so we are talking 88 points of the maximum permitted 90 scheduled. It doesn't take much of a delay to run into discretionary time which could give you up to 3 hours extra duty if you choose.

It is a single duty period with a 6.5 hour rest period; not enough to get enough rest for the 7.5 hour second half.

I can confirm that one is fairly comprehensively trashed by the end.

[BOAC]

Obviously not JAROPS then! It sounds as if you are 'stuffed' and since I do not know your ways of calculating your max/actual/planned FDP for 4 sectors nor how you go about split duty calcs, I cannot comment on the legality, but I would whole-heartedly agree that the pattern is far from ideal - and think the only avenue you have is your ?flight safety? channel/ASR-MOR (he said hopefully). I'm not sure there is any 'data' or research since I would be convinced that no-one in their right mind would have expected crew to work that pattern.

Good luck - and please don't let me work to that scheme:)

[Miserlou]

The system is OK and is JAROPS.
6 points per hour for 0600-2200 and 8 points per hour for 2200-0600 plus 5 points per landing.
FDP limit is scheduled max 90 points from check-in to on block with an absolute maximum of 108 at the discretion of the commander after consultation with entire crew in the event of unforeseen circumstances.
A rest period up to 4 hours with access to horizontal rest (a bed) incurrs 3 points per hour
A rest period of more than 4 but less than 8 hours incurrs no extra points.
Point reduction occurrs at the same rates from one hour (transport) after check-out. And no FDP shall conitinue longer than 20 hours after the end of the previous rest period.
It is only permitted to check-in with points carried over from a previous FDP once then the points must be reduced to zero.

Maximum per rolling week is 270 excluding landings.
In effect, we can do 45 hours per week. Subpart Q could give us a 60 hour week but contains an annual maximum which we don't have. It's a bit of a give and take situation.

[BOAC]

A totally new concept to a UK pilot! As I said, please do not make me fly to these.

If I understand you correctly, first part duty around 3 hours is probably 18 points+5=23

8 hrs rest is 24 points? Did not quite understand "A rest period of more than 4 but less than 8 hours incurrs no extra points." Do you stop adding points at 12 points? What happens if you take 9 hrs 'rest'?

7 hrs duty then (3 sectors) is at least 42+15=57 points

If I have that right, you are over 90? If I have the 8 hrs rest wrong then your total is at least 92 and that is assuming that split duty ('night stop') 'rest' is taken at 100% of chox to chox.

Out of interest, is the max 20 hrs a block for discretion or only for planning?

[TheKabaka]

Hi BOAC,

I am a UK pilot and flew in Sweden for about 6 months, and never got to grips with the poit system!

The no points for 6 to 8 hours rest is the equvilant of a split duty.

Also been able to work before all the points are "rested down" means that 8-12 hour rest periods are allowed.

CAP 371 is aa far better and restrictive document even if we now seem to use the limits as a target, rather than a maximum.

[BOAC]

One night sector/2 Hrs 16+5(land pt)= 21pts- does that mean that your time report to chox (normally at least 1 hour in the UK) does not count as 'points'?