EK Lawsuit

[The Balrog]

Emirates pilots sue Emirates Airlines for discrimination


A group of 12 EK Airbus pilots are preparing to take legal action against Emirates airlines on the grounds of employment discrimination. Within the same company and having signed the same contract, there is a direct distinction between employees with the same position, same qualifications and same date of entry. This discrimination is between FO’s (first officer) on the Airbus and the Boeing fleet.

A number of Airbus FO’s have now received a potential date for the start of their command course 4.6 years after joining the company (4.8 years until course completion). This implies that an Airbus FO has to wait 1.8 years longer than his Boeing counterpart who upgrades after only 3 years with the company. A Boeing FO with an identical joining date and rank not only benefits from a faster career progression, but also from a substantial raise in salary and privileges (pension fund, travel benefits, accommodation) totalling several hundred thousand dirhams.

In the past, promotion times for upgrade courses have always slightly differed between the Airbus and Boeing fleets, but have never reached such these proportions. 1.8 year is, in fact, 75% of a Boeing FO’s lifespan. The distinction between promotion times does not stem from external factors such as the delayed arrival of the A380s. It clearly results from company policy and the lack of a standardised seniority system. Ironically EK has published an official seniority list (all fleets merged) on their crew portal.

The GCAA might become involved in the legal proceedings as this discrimination could affect some aspects of flight safety such as CRM.

The 12 EK Airbus pilots intend to compel Emirates to resolve this discrimination issue by scheduling earlier upgrade courses for Airbus FO, or at the very least providing compensation to the plaintiffs.

[southflyer]

Windup or not, sign me up!!!

[4HolerPoler]

1.8 year is, in fact, 75% of a Boeing FO’s lifespan

Is the traffic really getting that bad?

[Aussie]

Whats the laws over there? Anyone think this will go anywherE?

[Uplink]

The only direction this will go is backwards. This has been covered before. When I joined a good few years ago, the company stopped Transition Upgrades as a few of the candidates were failing their upgrade courses.
I myself had quite a few Airbus guys jump ahead of me by anything up to six months. Personally it meant that I didnt have to go near the 54,000 Stella Artois cans welded together masquerading under the name of Airbus.
To The 12 good and true guys going for the law suit, all I can say is good luck. I think the chances of winning are less than zero. The company only recently lifted the ban on transition upgrades. Hey and guess what, when the A380 arrives it will be the Boeing guys who wont get a look in. But then who really wants to fly the A380 when you already fly a Boeing???????????

[Vorsicht]

I hope this is true, and good luck to the guys involved. From what i have seen, every time EK has been taken to court over its discriminatory HR policies, the company has lost. That has largely been because the cases have been tried in the UK. Lets hope this one goes the same way.

My bet is that this wont make it to court because EK wont want to set a precedent. But having said that, if they settle out of court it will open up a whole new can of worms for them.

More power to you guys.

[Fluke]

I doubt it will go anywhere if the case is to be presented in Dubai ( why would another country want to listen to it ?)
1. Its unfair but no breach of contract.
2. Very hard to get Dubai legal firms to go up against EK, because they are either already working for them already or trying to get EK business.
3. If they were to win EK will ensure they fail their upgrades.

Better option but just as unlikely ( but avoids point 3 ), would be to campaign for bypass pay. Use the family airline argument ect.ect.

Goodluck

[GlueBall]

Conceivably the plaintiffs must be suffering from some confusion about "seniority rights" at USA unionized [ALPA] carriers and those carriers in the rest of the world. :confused:

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

You mean seniority rights as in the rest of the civilised world i assume!!!
Passover pay is the minimum they should achieve, i wish them well!!

SyB :zzz:

[Tail Rota]

Hey fellas

ABOUT TIME SOME REAL NEWS

good onya boys for having a go...:ok:

my guess is part of that 106m USD the Govt took as tax will go to legal fees to drain you completely of any cash. Then you will have to work for ek under any circumstances to pay your legal bills. :ugh:

Post situation...........Still no upgrade and probably looking at 46 yrs to command not 4yrs and 6 months :E

big balls guys .........considering there is no mention of upgrade in your contract. Perseption or expectation doesnt count and certainly seniority has no bearing on your progression at EK.

You are Airbus drivers until EK decide otherwise......that is what you have been employed to do.

Sorry boys.......we are all individual contractors. like it or lump it:cool:

I will watching this one very closely

TR:ok:

[kingoftheslipstream]

... the company and these fellows are going to end up in a **** storm of recrimination.
Believe me I would enjoy a little pleasure seeing EK get its face slapped as the company is run barbarously but I think these guys are tilting at windmills in their Quixotic quest...
I think there's a misguided element of "entitlement" within this alleged suit.
I reckon the company has every right to offer upgrades within a fleet - it's cost effective after all. If this means that some FOs get command before others, so be it. There are transition upgrades available after all. There is no observable correlation between seniority and offers of anything at this company. Everything is fluid and negotiable... it's the spirit of the place. Dubai is full of hustlers, whores and heretics... everyone preachin' their own brand of selfishness... wether its at the traffic lights, in line at the gas station, or at the mall... it's the "me first" culture of region. :rolleyes:
This line of thinking is the kind of thing that just never ends, with one group always able to say they have been "disadvantaged". It's the kind of peevishness encouraged in minority rights oriented societies... Everyone co-opts the language of the disenfranchised to advance their cause... "discrimination" is the flavour of the day... it's a load of crap sometimes though.
EVERYBODY KNOWS the company lied, (was lying), when verbal statements about the time to command where made at interviews and upon joining during initial transition training. Anyone who took the word of any recruiter/TRI/TRE etc... was just foolin' themselves. The company does pay DECs differently than internally upgraded Captains... what to do, what to do?
Everybody knows the good guys are never first just better.:ok:
good luck
k-o-t-s

[BYMONEK]

Their claim, if this thread is actually true, is for discrimination. Nothing to do with a contract. Discrimination can and has been proved many times AFTER contracts are signed. Especially in European Courts of law. ( hint!).And no, we are NOT 'contract' Pilots in the sense that others may be. You join EK on an open contract like BA, Lufthansa, AA etc.

Emirates is quite happy to go to Airbus claiming against loss incured from delayed A380's. Not so happy to pay out compensation in the form of bypass pay when it involves its own staff. Perhaps the 'compensation' from Airbus will be passed onto these guys :rolleyes:

And just because the Boeing guys were disadvantaged 4 years ago, is no reason to accept it now. 10 year old kids were sent down mines less than 100 years ago but it doesn't happen now because someone had the balls to say "enough is enough!" Good luck to them if this is true! :ok:

[Scooter Rassmussin]

I think EK has to offer a reasonable solution to avoid the publicity. Shafting a group of its own pilots because thay tried to make a valid argument, remembering they have no union to negotiate with, would not help the recruitment drive....

[Saltaire]

Rightly shafted and discriminated against....they had fleet transfers before and every 1st world major Airline does the same. It's a complete shaft and completely inexuseable. They have loss all good will for the AB F0's and ever since the DEC and Accelerated policies things have gone straight down the lav...Good luck to them.

[thefoxandfirkin]

The best of luck guys, but which Court is this going to? The European Court (yeah right), Dubai Court of First Instance ? :ouch:

It's a good effort to make a stand but let's face it a quick way to loose your money too ! :ugh:

The Fox and Firkin
(plenty of beer to drown all woes)

[BYMONEK]

Apologies for the interuption.

As a lot of EK drivers will be reading this thread, please can I direct those with 'TopCover' insurance onto a thread on the Fragrant Harbour forum. Interesting discussion regarding insurance Company delaying and sometimes welshing on the Policy. This may be a good heads up to many here.

Rather than start a separate thread, just join that one. It's the same insurance Company after all!

Now.............back to this Legal action............

[MTOW]

Perhaps times have changed, (and perhaps they haven't), but "the 12" might like to take a moment to ask one of the old hands in the company what the EK management's reaction was to just the suspicion (unfounded, as it turned out) that the then newly arrived Australian pilots in EK were attempting to form a union.

That was some 15 years ago and the Australians were very disgruntled over... gosh, was it? - could it have been DECs and upgrades at the whim of the then Chief Pilot?

Seems some things never change - and that might well include the attitude of EK management to something like this.

[Thylakoid]

Pilots suing the company for discrimination? Humm.
First, some requirements would have to be met, such as ...
1. Find a good, independent, and "macho" type of lawyer willing to take Dubai Government (EK owners) to a local court;

2. Stash aside a significant amount of money, from their pockets, to pay for the lawyer services.

Unless I am outdated regarding the practices in this country, in all probability, EK legal guys would call these pilots for a chat and try to settle things out of court. Some money would be offered and everyone would have to leave the company. I don't think EK would admit anything under a lawsuit.

Employer promises' are like Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, ghosts, stuff like that. Therefore, upgrades after a certain period of time is just that: "after."

Good luck, anyway:)

[Flying Spag Monster]

How can you include ghosts in with the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.....every one knows ghosts aren't real...

[Lou Stulewater]

Good luck but claiming discrimination is a bit rich for expats isnt it?After all your not being discriminated against really are you?Just got a bum deal on your fleet allocation. :D If there was an historical precedent of continuous cross over upgrades and you were denied based on your ethnic origin with the same grades as any one else, then maybe.

One guy already hit the nail on the head. Its a national airline in name only. It was created off the shelf, designed to provide its owners with prestige.The talent was bought in, as was the infrastructure. They own it and your ass. Your choice.
Its not a Grandfather proprietry airline .Its crewed by mostly foreigners on contract, open or otherwise with immigration specifically for that job. Its not BA, or Lufthansa etc. Its an expat gig guys with the same rights as the little brown fellah falling to his death from a new constuction site on 10 dollars a day.
To think otherwise is delusional.:ok:

[BYMONEK]

Lou

Your second post and a new joiner today. Welcome. Or, perhaps more likely, an old hand who's decided it's time for a new handle judging by the nature of your post. Very 411A? Either way, I feel obliged to reply.

Yes, it's an expat job.Well spotted. We all know that which is why many here made huge decisions before leaving. Leaving family and friends behind and yes, in many cases, good jobs. Many will have spent hours trolling through Pprune and based their decisions on that, while others may have sought advice from friends and colleagues already here. But what about those that joined 4 years ago based on information over three days of recruitment and interview. Some here may well call it naivity on their part but when a Company with Ek's pedigree comes calling, you would have no reason not to believe them. Of course, that was then. Now, times have changed and so unfortunately has the reputation of this Airline. At least where Pilots are concerned anyway. The latest roadshows have met with only limited success and those that may be interested in joining are asking the sort of questions that many of us wished we'd asked years ago. The 3 hour 'presentation' is slick but many now want to know more than the final height of Burj Dubai or how many dinasours will be roaming Dubailand eating all 'the little brown fellahs'! Difficult questions are met with economical replies or "see me after the show". Unbelievably, some members of fleet management are still advising 3 years to command for the newbies that are coming through. Regardless of their fleet. The only thing that this achieves is the perpetual belief among F/o's that their time will come.......... in 3 years!

That, however, is not the reason legal action is being threatened. Discrimination is defined as when a distinction is made or unfair treatment is received, especially because of prejudice. It makes no difference whatsoever whether you're expat or not. Ethnic origin is also completely irrelevent.

Whatever people may say and regardless of how Emirates apply it, we do have a seniority system in place. We have a date of joining with published lists. We also have salary increments based as such. We are NOT contract pilots so please stop implying as such. The only 'temporary' aspect to our employment is the 3 year Visa renewal which every non national, working or otherwise, needs to complete. Comparing professional Pilots to other working groups here in Dubai is beyond naivety so please save the wind up comments for a different forum.

The FOM is littered with confusion and contradictions, however, the upgrade policy clearly states that ultimately the needs of Emirates will come first. Whilst i'm sure we'd all agree with that principle, it also states that progression is in seniority order. Great! But it isn't great because what we end up with is a mish mash of policies that are not consistently applied and are changed more frequently than the landing runway in Dubai. A kneejerk reaction from a tragic accident several years ago that has had far reaching implications for those employed in this part of the World. This has lead to resentment and discontent amongst the Pilots. Not just on the Airbus, but across all fleets. The only 'bum deal' these guys got was not being told the complete picture before they joined. It's easy for us all, now that we're acclimatised to the way it works here, but how many of us can say hand on heart that we all new about the pitfalls of living and working in the Middle East. Were they told that 'historically' your progress will depend on Aircraft type, that you're joining an 'expat gig' and your 'ass is ours'. I doubt it very much. Neither do I doubt the fact that as a Company, we will not offer passover pay to those dis-advantaged by fleet. Rather perverse when you consider all the huffing and puffing this Company made towards Airbus for compensation for its own 'financial loss' due to late delivery.

Ironically, it's this very issue of command that's at the heart of our recruitment problems. There are others and growing by the day, but this is one that we as a Company have a direct control over. If Emirates was to strictly apply the rule of seniority and have faith in those that it recruited and trained,then we wouldn't be in this mess. Were we all not told at interview that the Company only recruits future Captains, not First Officers? DEC's need not ponder that question and may continue.The decent Pilots are drying up and standards are begining to drop. It will continue to deteriorate unless we are prepared to lower the minimum experience level. Not Standards, but experience. There is a huge difference between the two but somebody needs to explain that to those at the very top.They wrongly equate experience with ability. And that's not the only problem. If we had faith in our own training system then transition upgrades would pass. As it is, our very own training department has been decimated over the last 3 years or so and inconsistency is the new buzz word as Alteon instructors become the norm rather than the exception. Incompetent planning has resulted in training being undertaken in London with BA and out in Singapore. There's now not enough sim time or even trainers to train the new trainers. Could you just imagine the state we'd be in if the 380's were on time.

Then again, I guess if that were so, the Airbus guys would be Captains by now. Instead of plaintiffs!

"ALL RISE" "Judge Al Maktoum now presiding" :uhoh:

[TangoUniform]

Try this on for size, if all this is true. Fairly soon, all 12 will probably be offered an upgrade (suit goes away). During the interview process or subsequent training it is determined that they are "not ready" for command for reason a or b or c. :ugh: Or the PPC is failed or final line check. I'm betting on the interview and examination phase.

T/U

[rakedwings]

Uptil now I asumed that we have intelligent people on the bus. Now I cant remember a contract promising any time
frame for upgrade. I guess the dirty dozen need to find something between the legs(I.E. B777 crossover).Just humour folks.

[GoreTex]

It was said already 3 years ago that it will take much longer than 3 years for an upgrade, it was all over pprune, but some guys love to lie to themself.

I don't like EK and hate Dubai, thats why I am working to get out of here ASAP but the truth is that there was never a seniority in EK and it's up to the owner to decide which idiot he puts in charge ofhis OWN company and who gets an upgrade and who doesn't.

There are a zillion of postings on this site and if new joiners don't make their homework and get some inside info and believe what the recruiters tell them it's their own fault.

Don't compare Dubai and it's mickey mouse laws with the real world.

Now you can fire at me for telling the truth
GT

[BYMONEK]

Why bother? You've been promising us all for the last year or so you're leaving. Spending a bit more time on that CV should see your wish come true. :bored:

[Dirigible]

If this is a wind up it has elicited a lot of response. As one of the disadvantaged AB guys, neither I nor a couple of my colleagues whom I have questioned knows a thing about such an action. There has been no posting on the AB f/o yahoo group swap site. Methinks all hot air......
I do think there would be a fair number of guys willing to explore the options further if we knew the origins of the story and colluded to advace this course of action. I think it would be difficult to pursue a lawsuit, but the potential to embarass and therefore provoke action is an option, particularly in a carrier which spends so much on advertising its product and shies away from any adverse publicity.

[fatbus]

I do know a few of the guys in recruitment and none of them have or ever will promise anything, quote the company mins yes but thats as far as that goes. If the dirty dozen tries to embarrass the company should be a fun upgrade for them.Enjoy.

[fo4ever]

Who can confirm this store????

I think its some sort of joke?

[411A]

Hmm well, as I was mentioned previously, might as well offer advice, though I expect it will not be properly received.

This same sort of nonsense was tried at SaudiArabian some time ago, by ex-EAL pilots, and they were told, enmass, by the company that if they did not back off and keep their traps firmly shut, the entire group would be dismissed forthwith, and be on the next plane out...and not necessarily to their home country, either.

To those at EK today, do you really believe that this would or could not happen today, just because you are in DXB?
Really?:rolleyes:

I submit that the same scenario would be forthcoming, or a slight variation mentioned before...command assessment or upgrade training offered, then failed, and promptly out the door, whether the perfomance during said training was up to snuff, or not.

In short, it so very easy to boot malcontents out the door, as apparently some, even today, have not fully realised that in DXB, and indeed elsewhere in the mid-east, legal proceedings are clearly biased toward the companies concerned.
Especially so where a government owned company is concerned.

[Bring Back The Biff]

Go for it guys. Good luck.
Remember that you signed your contracts in your home country, before you came to DXB, so legally you can try the case there. Don't bother trying it in DXB. I can tell you from experience that 90% of the law firms are in the employ of EK and will not touch the case due to a conflict of interest. Make sure you contact a tabloid with your case as well. If a UK tabloid will devote 2pages to an EK pilots divorce proceedings, they should give this some coverage too.
I don't think EK will want the bad publicity amongst the pilot community at the moment considering how many they need to hire in the coming years.

[fatbus]

please explain why it makes a difference where you sign your contract

[thefoxandfirkin]

I beg to differ young Biff (about the contract bit).

You could have signed the contract in Timbuk Too and it's irrelevant as you'll find it's actually a Dubai contract you've signed, not an English, French, Ozzie or anything else one for that matter. :*

I really wish the guys all the best (if it's true) but let's face it, it's going to come back on you in one way or another either financially (if you can't secure Erin Brockevich :8) or through command assesment failure etc etc.

Save your very hard earned money boys and spend it on some good beer instead (and there's not much of that here :{)!

The Fox and Firkin

[Vorsicht]

I hear what you're saying, but a few things have changed for the better over the last 12-18 months. First and foremost there is a whole bunch of guys here (F/O's) who are not the slightest bit concerned about getting the bullet. There are plenty of jobs to go to and some are on furlough from the US. I flew with an F/O the other day who is leaving after 3 years to go and fly corporate in the states.

Secondly, the UAE of today bears little resemblance to Saudi of years ago. They may still have the same attitude, but they have had to outwardly adjust it in order to appear like a 1st world country (well at least not the 3rd world country it really is) in order to gain entrance to the WTO et al. Remember the Dubai Ports fiasco. That is how the world really sees this place, and they need to be seen to be doing the right thing even if they dont believe it.

Thirdly, more than one pilot has sued the company for unfair dismissal in the UK, and won handsomely. Sure they had already lost their jobs and had little more to lose, except the legal fees. But as i said, there are many here who dont care about losing their jobs. Any pilot with a pulse can walk into a widebody job somewhere at the moment.

So while the company might like to sack them/fail them on their command, the UK courts would have something else to say about that too.

So i would say that if there is any substance to this rumour, and they take it to the UK, or some other labour friendly country, they might stand a reasonable chance of winning. On the other hand, they might lose their jobs.

Not everyone is happy to sit back and accept ME crap just because challenging it might cause some heartache.

Good luck to em. If it is true and they win then we will all benefit, therefore we should all support it.

But we know better dont we.

Pilots aren't in tha habit of supporting their colleagues in order to further the profession. They are more in the style of "F**k you, I'm all right jack"

V

[L1011]

If this is NOT a wind-up - good going guys. Best of luck to you!

[Andu]

At the risk of causing total thread creep, from observation, since ariving in Dubai, and especially within the EK pilot group "F**k you, I'm all right jack"would seem to have been invented in the very country some of you are suggesting these people should try their lawsuit.

If I haven't made myself clear, I mean the UK.

[Payscale]

Dont waste you time, hope and money. If you have been here for 3 years and you still dont know the ways of the land, bless you, you must be ignorant fools to think you can will such a case against EK in Dubai. Boeing fleet is one side AB another.
5 years to a heavy command, is that so bad?

[BYMONEK]

No, Payscale, it isn't. In fact, 5 years is bloody good going if;


1) This is your first jet job and you haven't already spent the last 15 years gaining valuable experience elsewhere.

2) Everyone else in the same Company takes 5 years to command and it's in strict seniority order. Regardless of aircraft type or previous command time.

3) DEC's don't even enter the equation. In fact, they shouldn't even enter the Company!

4) They tell the absolute truth during roadshows and at interview.


Knowing how it actually works here AFTER you arrive is the easy bit. The hard bit is knowing BEFORE you arrive.

[Keith Discovering]

My prediction is if this rumour is true, then 12 pilots will be looking for 12 new jobs. Sorry...but Uncle Tim won't put up with such dissent in the UAE. :uhoh:

[Payscale]

bymonek

Point proven! You just dont get it! This is the UAE. The middle east.
Forget promisses. Forget strict senoirty lists. Forget the ways of a democratic society. That doesnt wash here. You are on your own. Noone will stand up for you. Sorry to say, but I agree with the other fellow you said, 12 guys will be looking for a new job soon. EK cant afford grassroots. Sorry.

See the Boeing fleet as another company. 6 years ago they were waiting for their commands. Now it us..

This country is build on dreams of quick capital gain. Be it investors or employees. Many people are hired into jobs they are underqualified for. Banks. Real Estate agencies. Car dealers. Shop attendants...

The longer you stay the more difficult it is to leave.

[GoreTex]

Bymonkey,
guess you're one of them who didn't make his homework.

[BYMONEK]

GoreTex

Guess again. Things have worked out very well for me here and the view from the left seat is great, but I guess that was because I encountered positive discrimination.

Talking of 'homework', how's that CV of yours coming along?



PayScale

And that's MY very point. As a Company we are 'economical' with the truth before you join. A form of deception almost. Perhaps in future, Flight International should place a warning with every EK job advert.


WARNING : Working in the Middle East may seriously damage your wealth. Jobs advertised in this section may not be completely accurate and applying for a job is done entirely at the readers own risk!


Don't get me wrong. I'm neither advocating nor opposed to this course of action. It's certainly a brave, some might say foolish move, but maybe they feel there's nothing to lose. To be perfectly honest, I suspect this whole legal action is non exsistent and the thread is merely to elicit a reaction from us. It's succeeded. Maybe someone is tentatively testing the likelihood of support amongst the EK Pilots should they decide to proceed. The original post though, if true, states a claim for discrimination. Nothing to do with false promises of 3 years to command or breach of contract. They have been discriminated against. Yes, as were the Boeing guys 6 years ago. However, 6 years ago the job market was a different place altogether.

Regarding you statement on this quick gain society and underqualified employees, I couldn't agree more. Sad, but true!

[Payscale]

Thats the thing the one day will make me leave. Not the company, but the wall banging incompetance one meets everyday. My bank lady, doing the mortgage for us, just confided that she doesnt have a banking education.
Just a short course, a calculator and a front office. Long live commission based employees. Sign the paper and we'll forget all about you - after you pay, siiirrrrr
Voila.....dubai in a nutshell :D:D:ugh:

[ekpilot]

Atleast Payscale, you got both the left seat and the girl. :D !
Some of us weren't that lucky...:{

[Payscale]

Correct that to GIRLS....8 weeks now :p
How was 17 May?