T4 Shambles - 21 May 1400

[kemblejet01]

Yesterday, got in at about 1400L to find T4 end in total mayhem. The ground guy was doing his best but the 45 minute bottleneck was loosely attributed to a BA flight possibly having taxxied out "without his figures".

What does this mean?
KMB01

[Megaton]

Cubes?

Surprised you've not come across this before? BA gets provisional load sheet from despatcher and all performance figures use this data. During taxi out, "final" load sheets figures are sent from Cenralized Load Control. Normally this only takes a couple of minutes but we cannot go without the final figures. If they're using 27L for departure, someone from T4 without final loadsheet may have caused your bottleneck.

[NigelOnDraft]

Andy - do BMed not stretch to / have to endure BA's provisional loadsheet system, where we rely on someone else to send an ACARS with the "real" figures sometime after we taxi... All sorts of c*ckups then available, from just "cannot go" to "must return to stand and get new loadsheet" :ugh:

[kemblejet01]

Interesting - we don't go till we've got the finals. We're late of stand sometimes, but never in my experience, from not having the numbers

KMB01

[Yellow Snow]

As a LHR ATCO (to use Sir Alan Sugars words) it's my personal opinion that BA are 'a total shambles'.
Not the front line staff, the idiots in management that have reduced the support functions to the bone.

Never mind 27L as the departure runway, we can use any runway for departure and BA never seem to be ready on reaching a quiet holding point.:ugh:
Whether this be loadsheet or cabin not ready. Why can every other airline play the game but BA can't. When you factor into the equation the lack of dispatchers to park the inbounds and the finite space at LHR it's not long before BA can bring the airport to it's knees.

I have the upmost respect and empathy for my friends and colleagues on the flightdeck who have to come up with excuses on a daily/hourly basis to explain things to the SLF. I admit this is a rant but I hear a lot worse from friends in the pointy end.

Everyone keeps saying it'll be alright with T5:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
BA also promised us that they'd pull out all the stops to help us with the transition to the new tower. We kept our end of the bargain and managed to reduce the flow control to standard within a couple of days. BA were back to the usual tricks of no dispatchers also within a couple of days despite promising us the highest level of support for a month:D

I understand my position, BA are the customer, but if they aren't going to play the game, then to protect my license, my colleagues and I will have to introduce inbound and outound flow control so every user of the airport suffers.

Rant Over. Been brewing for a while!

[Big Kahuna Burger]

Its called...... Fit for Five, but F***ed in Four.

[NigelOnDraft]

YS... The only crticism of LHR ATC I'd make is... why have you put up with BA's behaviour for so long :{
I've landed LHR the last 2 evenings (Sat/Sun) and it's been a joke... BA aircraft littered around T1 waiting for stands / holding short of them / unable to leave them due the above or no tugs. ATC Gnd good humoured commenting on them, but no more....
I did call a "Senior" BA Mgr today, and suggest cut the corporate chat over the issue, just call LHR ATC and get their opinion, or better, ask to listen to the 121.9 tapes for an hour or so for Sat or Sun evening. Good chap he is he is only a part of "Flt Ops", and presumably treated further up the chain with the same disdain as ATC and the rest of BA's Flt Ops.
Whether this be loadsheet or cabin not ready.Loadsheet because out "Despatchers" are no longer, and all "loadsheet" stuff done in Waterworld totally disconnected from aircraft / schedules. "Cabin not Ready" because Waterworld's equivalent of Hollywood has produced a safety video full of corporate blah, kiddies and teddy bears that takes minutes longer than the previous one, and has to be shown. After the boarding announcement in 3+ different languages :ugh:

[Hotel Mode]

Its being discussed on our company forum, management are too spineless to take on In flight services over how long our cabin crew take to secure the cabin. Loadsheets have got much better recently. I wont go past S1S or N until cabin is secure/loadsheet arrives, that way others can go round.

[Yellow Snow]

Cheers for the responses guys. I wish there was something that ATC could do to help change the situation, but it seems the powers at be enjoy having their head in the sand.

We've asked countless times for Willy to come and visit the tower and see how bad things are on the ground for real, no joy yet.

I enjoy a challenge on GMC and always try keep the humour but the frustration is that LHR could be a much better environment for all if BA management got their house in order.

Interesting to know about why loadsheets and cabin take so long, we didn't know that.

[Nubboy]

Is it true that at some terminals its BA who allocate the stands for inbounds?

[GT3]

As another LHR ATCO,

I have twiced emailed our man in charge to ask Willie Walsh to come, unannounced to BA, and listen in on GMC to see how bad his airline is. I offered that he could sit with me. This was some time ago and nothing seems to have been done. No doubt he (WW) is too busy to do it. I think it would really open his eyes.

[747-436]

It is true that it is BA who allocate stands for inbounds in T4 and flights in T1.

I don't think they do it all on their own though. I think that they send the plan to HAL (Heathrow Airport Limited) Terminal controllers who approve the stand, but I would think that is a mere formality and it is probably BA that have the control over who goes where.

[point5]

As another ATCO I would like to mirror the comments by GT3 and YS. Yesterday was the first time in the new tower that inbound spacing was introduced due to the utter "chaos" on ground. This is not fair on other operators into LL who can always ensure they can fully park, are fully ready for departure etc... and if it wasn't too much hassle for TC, I would suggest that the increased spacing was only applied between BA flights.

Such increased spacing will become more common simply to protect our guys on ground. With easterly operations yesterday (09L for landing) it is a nightmare when the domestic aircraft parking 109 to 192 cannot park and hang off the gate - it leaves you with just the one taxiway to play with. If you have a westbound outbound, against a vacating inbound, then its not long before you're in the sh*t.

It is so predictable now that each BA aircraft will not be able to park. It would save on RT time if you just told us you can park!! I for one have stopped long push backs to allow inbounds onto the gate - the inbound will not park, delay the outbound and bring the cul-de-sac to a grinding halt, so whats the point!! However, if its an inbound BA delaying an outbound BA, then maybe this will teach them a lesson (probably not!)

The poor guy on GMC2 on 20th at watch changeover time was going potty! I sympathised with him. It is still far too early after the transition to NVCR and EFPS for the chap to have to put up with such a shambles. 7 inbounds all parked down the 09R extension for over an hour without a gate and then of course they all had to move due to the alternation with 27L being the landing runway. The TAM was on the ground for nearly 2 hours before it parked on its gate (the 4th gate it had been given)! The foreigners must dread flying in to EGLL.

Anyway, enough of the moaning... T5 will solve all these problems :ok:

[TopBunk]

You could always reduce the 'unable to park' problem by leaving the stand guidance on! [Thanks for the Leader vehicle btw yesterday to help me park].

In general, I agree, I have to suffer my own company's [BA] incompetance all the time in many aspects of daily life and am thoroughly depressed by the totally inability of managers to change anything for the better. The only saving grace is that I now fly the 747, so have many fewer transits of LHR than I used to have on the Airbus fleet. I would be tearing my hair out (if I had any left) if I were still on Shorthaul:ugh:. I really don't give a fig about this company anymore.

[Feather #3]

On our network, T4 at LHR is the most dysfunctional terminal to which we operate. It makes the LAX operation seem like child's play!!:ugh::ugh:

To work with the World's best ATC and the worst handling operation is a fascinating dychotomy! :hmm:

G'day ;)

[Yellow Snow]

You could always reduce the 'unable to park' problem by leaving the stand guidance on!

Not an ATC decision unfortunately, it's up to BA and BAA managers to work it out:ugh::ugh:

[747-436]

I had heard that leaving the stand Guidance on all the time has been discussed but this in itself would bring up the problem of things being left on stand and then an aircraft hitting something on the way in.
This isn't really a problem at the moment as the stand is checked before the guidance comes on.
Hopefully T5 will solve a lot of the problems but it will be running at full capacity for aircraft stands soon after BA move in to it.

[BOAC]

You could always reduce the 'unable to park' problem by leaving the stand guidance on! - covered in another thread, TB. That is outwith BAA regulations which require the stand to be checked by the relevant operator before the guidance is switched on, as 747-436 says. We went through all of this at LGW in my time due to the inability of the managers to man the dispatch department properly.:ugh:

[TopBunk]

BOAC, I know - I suggested the same thing on the other thread.

My point is that ATC also have a vested interest in aircraft parking promptly and therefore could/should also approach BAA.

As for hitting something left on the stand, I am not advocating proceding without caution and if in doubt you, of course, should seek guidance, but for heavens sake, parking a little Airbus/737 on a stand designed for a 75/76 or larger aircraft shouldn't tax anyone too much!

And on that point, when on the A319/320 with no guidance, if the stand is designed to accommodate 75/767's, you can almost always get far enough on to allow aircraft to taxi behind.

Some people just look for problems rather than solutions!

[powerset]

The problem is even easier sorted than that. Many times we approach the stand and have many staff hanging around who could check the ramp and turn on the guidence, but the turn 'round coordinaters won't let anybody else do 'their' job so we get stuck, and with the restrictions on idle power only going onto stand we get stuck out on the taxi ways. I too hear the resignation in the voices of the ATC'ers and feel humiliated to work for such a band of incompetent tossers. But what can you do?

[BOAC]

TB - Some people just look for problems rather than solutions! - the point is, you ain't going to get a solution to a BA problem here on PPRune.:confused:

[WHBM]

Hopefully T5 will solve a lot of the problems but it will be running at full capacity for aircraft stands soon after BA move in to it.
Looking down on the T5 site from departing aircraft it seems that most if not all of the stands already completed before the terminal building are already pretty well occupied by parked aircraft all day long. So where will THEY go when T5 is opened for business and T2 is closed for demolition ?

[Yellow Snow]

It's been discussed before by LHR ATC, of a procedure where BA inbounds are left in the stack and any other airline can land.

Obviously not until fuel becomes critical, but give each BA inbound an extra 5 minutes (could be more) delay in the stack, thereby reducing the demands on the overworked and undersized number of red caps and keeping GMC flowing for all airport users. I wonder how much 5 minutes of stack fuel per inbound costs compared to the cost of 1 extra red cap per hour. Maybe then BA management will be able to get their thumb out of the proverbial!

Topbunk, our ops have approached BA BAA B&Q MI5, whoever it takes to get the stand guidance system sorted, but ultimately it comes down H&S at work and BAA can't authorise such a scheme.

[west lakes]

from an slf view (if I dare)
Mrs W.L. (who does not really enjoy air travel) travelled to LHR this weekend and got caught up in this Sun PM. The delay wasn't vast but she tells me what made it better was the commentary fron the F/D as to cause (lack of dispacher/tug/runway change - the earlier post about parking probably the cause) & progess - to that crew :ok:.

Also on the flight down in Fri the comment again from F/D to the effect "On landing we will be using reverse thrust - on this aircraft/type? it is rather noisy but normal" Again good customer communication :ok:
Won't give any info on destination etc in case some BA spy gets upset with staff telling customers the truth - a practice seemingly sadly lacking in the airline industry. Telling SLF the truth about delays and TECh problems that is!

Crews give yourselves pats on the back

Not forgetting ATC for trying to hold it together

[TopBunk]

- the point is, you ain't going to get a solution to a BA problem here on PPRune.:confused:

Obviously not Mike, but then again you can't get an answer to a BA problen within BA either. In the meantime I suggested that as BA pilots we try to minimise the problems our (mis)management cause by moving as far forward as is prudent to ease congestion:ugh:

[BOAC]

to minimise the problems our (mis)management cause by moving as far forward as is prudent to ease congestion Peter - the better answer, surely then, might be to remain on the taxiway, blocking other traffic until pressure on BA mounts to such an extent that they resource correctly? You are obviously free to manoeuvre your aircraft as you wish - partly or even all the way onto stand - without guidance, but I would not rely on my management backing me up if there is a whoopsie?

Yellow Snow - an amusing idea but it would only delay the congestion by the same amount:)

[anotherthing]

YS

in theory it might shake up BA, for a while, but it would make the DIR job a nightmare, especially at this time of year when you usually have a level or two blocked off in the stacks due to special flights.

Why should ATCOs and BA crews have to suffer for mis management? Unfortunately I doubt whether much will change in the future.

[Roobarb]

I suggest that as BA are clogging up the works, they are costing you revenue. Therefore you should take out a claim for damages against the directors of BA to recover your losses.

I also suggest you hurry, in case they all end up in gaol.

http://www.tvradiobits.co.uk/eightieszone/Roobarb1.jpg
I'll take on the competition anyday. It's my management I can't beat!

[TopBunk]

the better answer, surely then, might be to remain on the taxiway, blocking other traffic until pressure on BA mounts to such an extent that they resource correctly?Obviously I have thought of that:hmm: ... but I have discounted that in that it would require a concerted effort, and that would be hard to arrange. In the meantime I prefer to minimise the effect and to try to be professional and to help my fellow aviators, both within BA and outside [whilst at the same time removing any risk to myself].

When we move to T5, then my approach may well be different ;), as it will only be BA affected.

[fly bhoy]

BOAC

the better answer, surely then, might be to remain on the taxiway, blocking other traffic until pressure on BA mounts to such an extent that they resource correctly

Not a better answer at all I don't think, unless its only BA aircraft that are being blocked.

As has been mentioned before, almost every other airline manages to get parked straight away (with the exception of BMI, SAA and other T1 operators who can't park due to BA equipment on the stand...yet another major problem!!) so blocking all other traffic penalises these airlines unfairly in my opinion.

As another ATCO who was working sun/mon afternoons, I also tried to maintain as much humour as possible (and yes it was me who littered the aircraft all over T1!!! It seemed like a good idea at the time:}:ugh:) it was very, very irritating to finally get traffic pushed back from a stand which an inbound was waiting for, to work like a one-armed paper hanger, zig-zagging said inbound around everyone else waiting for a gate, only for them to get there and tell us the guidance wasn't on, hence blocking the outbound as well!!

A suitable alternative would've been to just get the outbound pushed and taxied out before bringing the inbound on, but as Yellow Snow has mentioned, the finite space at EGLL means this isn't possible as the minute you free up some space, its got to be taken by another who's stand is occupied!!!:{:eek:

My prefered solution would be to stop thinking about bloody profits and hire more despatchers (dispatchers?!?:confused:), but that would be too easy I suppose.

One thing I do wonder, however, is how long it'll be before the airfield operator finally bites the bullet and says "NO" to any further requests for leader vehicles to park aircraft!!

My sympathies to all the flight crew and pax!!:(

FB:ok:

p.s. have any of you guys noticed any kind of concerted go-slow from the tug drivers towing aircraft around the airfield??

[Carnage Matey!]

Yep, they've been ona go-slow for the last two years, although my last departure was at a particularly tortoise-like pace.

[BOAC]

fly bhoyunless its only BA aircraft that are being blocked - the whole idea is that it would block OTHER companies. Unless you understand the mentality of the BA managers you will not find a solution. Delays to BA a/c and pax do not matter to the accountants. The fares are paid. The staff will work that extra bit to make up the lost time. In my opinion, it is only by driving all the other operators to desperation that there will be a change.

[flyer1-11]

I used to ask if there was a marshaller available and get him to park you on stand.

[fly bhoy]

Delays to BA a/c and pax do not matter to the accountants

But surely then delays to any other carrier would be of even less consequence to them, if they don't even care about their own customers?!?

I personally would be inclined to do absolutely nothing other than provide the basic service for BA flights if it would get results and my actions were understood by crews. This would mean no more long pushes to let inbounds park, no more marshallers, no more multiple push backs etc and even not letting any inbounds taxi in until confirmation that guidance is on...but, and i'm glad to say this, my sense of professionalism and my desire to do everything I can to expedite every aircraft in and outbound (regardless of carrier:};)) means that isn't going to happen.

Maybe HAL could start levvying charges for every aircraft that can't park, but then BA management would probably look to recover the costs from elsewhere!!!:{:ugh:

I used to ask if there was a marshaller available and get him to park you on stand.

I've been saved untold amounts of hassle by the leader vehicles who do a fantastic job (:ok:) but they have other things to do on the airfield and cant be running about all over the place switching on guidance. And from what I can gather even they're getting in short supply now, or so i understand?!?

The lights should be left on constantly, and if there's any concern about equipment on stand or anything else, then you ask for help. I would be very surprised if any crew simply turned onto a stand without checking if it was clear, whether the guidance was on or not!!!

FB:ok:

[M.Mouse]

We used to be able to taxi on to stand with or without guidance.

The Health and Safety Police stopped that because we are obviously too stupid to notice obstructions when taxiing.

Data Protection and Health and Safety have become too all encompassing and used for things far beyond there original remit and to the detriment of common sense.

[Yellow Snow]

Got this e-mail the other day from a BA pilot friend of mine:-

Just starting a few days off thank god, the other day we had hour delays because BA introduced a new system on the buses (apparently abandoned now at significant cost!) and last night we landed to be number 8 for a dispatcher (and consequently stand guidance), marshaller kindly parked us after about 10 minutes of holding short and we then waited a further 20 minutes on stand for a dispatcher to arrive to put the jetty on! I pity the ground controller - as you might imagine LHR was slowly grinding to a halt with BA aircraft unable to park anywhere.
Aaaarrrggghhhh, rant over, keep taking the "it'll be allright in T5" pills!


I'm glad he has a 'GMC sense of humour':D:D:D

I think as ATC we're lucky (relatively) we don't work for BA and have to put up with the cr@p every day all the time.

Incidentally, the Heathrow SATCO has a meeting with 5 or 6 senior BA managers at compass this Friday to 'discuss' the shambles they put the airfield in daily. I wonder how many false promises will be made.

[wiggy]

No doubt countless promises, but you can be sure anything along the lines of "we will increase our resources" is a lie..
And since I was the cause of a major snarl up at T4 a couple of weeks back because of :
(a) no guidance, ( no dispatcher) and
(b) couldn't turn in to stop short 'cos then we would have had to shut down ( HSE and also no tugs), I wish the "SATCO" luck in sorting it out.

[George Foreman]

Not since the "new working procedures" for baggage handers in the run up to Christmas have I seen such a shambles as T4 last weekend.

Reading this thread I now see that our 52 mins taxi back from landing 27R to shutting down on stand at T4 was not particularly exceptional last weekend! Waiting remotely for a stand to become free is one thing; but waiting a few yards short of being fully parked for want of stand guidance/steps/buses is utterly wasteful of fuel and time. Many of our business customers are regulars, who witness the T4 shambles often enough to realise that the BA T4 handling problem is endemic. And our crews also deserve better after a long trip than all this waiting around, appeasing pax.

As my captain observed the only thing that changes is the order in which things don't happen! All we can do is to tell our passengers why they are having to wait, apologise and hope they appreciate our honesty; there are no acceptable excuses in these circumstances.

I've had a few days off and taken a few shuttles recently - 4 out of 6 delayed by about an hour. On Sunday the BA announcement at T1, Gate 5was more self-defeatingly honest than any of our PAs .. "a major shortage of despatchers"

Thankfully we finalise our numbers at the gate..joining a queue for takeoff only to not be ready for avoidable operational reasons must drive ATC up the wall.

Whatever happened to those then-trendy back-to-basics 90s initiatives "Total Quality" and "Performance Management" with it's theme of continuous improvement? How come the stats on the pareto charts aren't screaming from the projectors and daily/weekly/monthly reports?

[Airbus Unplugged]

Heathrow SATCO has a meeting with 5 or 6 senior BA managers at compass this Friday

I shouldn't hold your breath, Yellow. BA management are incapable of admitting error. Think Cybermen.

Have a better Friday, knock off early and go down the pub:ugh:

[Yellow Snow]

As my captain observed the only thing that changes is the order in which things don't happen

Love that, George. Quality

I've got to admit, was doing 27L deps yesterday, quiet at the holding point. BAW239 to BOS pushes off 423 and is instructed to hold at S1N. I call them and ask them to report ready not expecting the call for 5-10 minutes!
I nearly fell off my seat when they said ready now (a 777 push from the Victors) I couldn't hide my surprise on the RT and jokingly asked if it was a manual demo, I think this might've been lost on the crew.

Anyhow, I thought I'd share a positive BA story!

[FullWings]

The stand ground markings are pretty clear at LHR, IMHO. The issue of stand guidance seems to be a combination of vested interests, inertia and finger pointing.

I, for one, would be quite happy to taxy onto stand as it is easy to see if anything is infringing or not. As it's still MY fault if we hit something, even if the stand is supposedly checked obstruction-free, I would welcome the POWER to taxi on there myself as I'm already taking the RESPONSIBILITY.

This has a parallel in the ATIS instructions: "Pilots are to exercise caution at the holding points as wingtip clearance may not be assured". If we all put the brakes on until we got a marshaller, both going onto stand and down near the runway, the penny might finally drop.

[52049er]

Yellow Snow - I hope you may see more of this in the future. We are aware you guys are watching us and in the lack of anything concrete from the office, discussions about how we can speed things up are appearing in more and more of our pre flight briefings.

Elsewhere in the world ATC are less forgiving (for e.g. LAX get VERY cross as we have a bit of history blocking their entry points and will instruct us to taxy down the runway and rejoin the back of the queue if we cause delays), so my fleet are definitely trying to improve - though our addiction to PA's takes some overcoming......

[A4]

Fullwings, I think you are a brave man. Whilst I fully share you common sense and practical approach w.r.t taxi-ing onto an empty stand, if, and it's a big if, you do hit something you're screwed - you won't have a legal leg to stand on. HSE, lawyers, management will come own on you like a ton of bricks. If you're not going get a jet bridge anyway - why risk it? The world has gone completely mad, but if that's the way they want to play it then so be it.

I'm not prepared to risk my £XXXk per year because we now live in such a litigious/PC/HSE dominated/empire building/nanny state society.

I feel for fellow pilots and ATCO's at LHR. To put up with this $h*t day in day out is nothing short of scandelous. If it were down to me I would impose massive inbound restrictions on BA flights to LHR. If they only have the capacity to handle 30% of the inbounds then that's all they should be allowed to have on the ground. Simple - show the bean counters it's hurting and then watch things change. Or impose fines. How about £20/minute starting two minutes after the jet bridge is removed until you push. Or £50/minute for inbounds starting 10 minutes after landing?

The fact that other airlines get totally disadvantaged by "The Worlds Favourite" (only in their eyes/dreams) is also totally unacceptable. But in the tradition of British Senior management, no-one will actually address the problem or resign. Just let it all carry on and wait for your bonus or "promotion". If we drivers did our jobs then same way as these "managers" it would be bloody carnage - literally.

From the outside looking in it is totally obvious that BA management are totaly delusional. Just look at the history of high profile cock-ups over the last couple of years. Catering. Fog. Baggage being "lost/pilferred" for weeks. ADMITTING fuel surcharge fixing and now they practically bring LHR to a standstill on a regular basis with total disregard for all other users. BA deserve everything coming to them - arrogance will be duly rewarded. How the mighty have fallen.

Rant over.

A4

And now they want Iberia :}:uhoh::ugh::hmm::eek::eek::eek:

[411A]

....(for e.g. LAX get VERY cross as we have a bit of history blocking their entry points and will instruct us to taxy down the runway and rejoin the back of the queue if we cause delays)...

This is certainly nothing new for LAX.
Many years ago, as I sit waiting in the DC-6B for taxi instructions, here comes PanAmerican, in one of their brand new B747's...

PanAm; Clipper Two on ground.

Gnd: Good morning Clipper Two, taxi to the gate.

Pan Am: Ah...we're not sure where the gate is.

Gnd: I'm not sure either, Clipper Two. We have 3300 acres here, it must be somewhere.

[FullWings]

Fullwings, I think you are a brave man. Whilst I fully share you common sense and practical approach w.r.t taxi-ing onto an empty stand, if, and it's a big if, you do hit something you're screwed - you won't have a legal leg to stand on. HSE, lawyers, management will come own on you like a ton of bricks...
I'll take that as a compliment! I wasn't suggesting going against the instructions of the BAA or my Company, just that if they left the guidance on permanently and said: "you decide if it's safe", I would be quite happy to take on that responsibility, along with everything else.

If it was a dark and stormy night or foggy or I wasn't quite sure about that baggage container... then of course, I'd wait until it was cleared up. I'm talking about when it's the stand equivalent of CAVOK - why sit there burning fuel?

There are 1,000,000 things you can do in life that might attract the attention of the HSE, lawyers, management and other bottom feeders; an extra one isn't going to make much of a difference. BTW, do you know of anyone who has gone to court over an incident? I thought that above a certain level of damage you got a management post...

[A4]

Fullwings - it was a compliment. Perhaps I've just been ground down to the point of unquestioning compliance -hope not or I'd better go and shoot myself!!! :eek::}

Of course if BA got its act together then it wouldn't be an issue of discussion - you'd arrive at stand to be greeted by a smiling and happy ground crew with guidance and ground power awaiting you.

I'm not aware of anyone being taken to court either - yet. Although I'm sure there is a clause in my contract about wilful negligence and damage to company property. Lawyers would have a field day. (No disrespect FL).

A4

[Beanbag]

As humble slf I'm grateful to this thread for showing me who's to blame for the inevitable frustration on arrival at LHR / LGW due to no guidance / no jetway driver / 1hr+ waits for baggage or whatever. I'd been blaming BAA since things seem to be better at the other end of BA flights, but now I know who to complain to. And as luck would have it I got an email from BA today following up on a customer survey I completed on a recent flight, asking for feedback on the arrivals experience. Maybe if PAs made it clear whose fault these delays are there would be more customer complaints going to BA, which might have an impact.

[Carnage Matey!]

Sadly the thought police prevent us telling you who is really to blame by letting it be known that anyone who speaks the truth may be disciplined for bringing BA into disrepute.

[Nubboy]

A few years ago a colleague, frustrated yet again by the non arrival of stairs at a semi remote stand at LHR made a impassioned PA, and included the MD's name and phone number as being the best person to complain to to.
An invitation to tea and biccies, without both, swiftly followed.:=
Keep whipping the troops til morale improves.

[MrBernoulli]

A4,

"Of course if BA got its act together then it wouldn't be an issue of discussion - you'd arrive at stand to be greeted by a smiling and happy ground crew with guidance and ground power awaiting you."

Jay-sus! That would need a Disney-size fairy tale to be accomplished. Apparently Terminal 5 is going to save us all from the ills of BA. Hallelujah! T5 may even be a cure for cancer!

:yuk:

[sidtheesexist]

Re the meeting between the SATCO and the BA Mgrs - I hope s/he reads them the riot act. I am proud to be a (SH)Pilot with BA but absolutely ashamed and embarressed with what we,as a company, are offering our customers at the moment - never mind the problems we are creating for other LHR users and Air Traffic. Our managers are delusional or ostrich like or both - they obviously have no concept of the chaos which occurs across LHR on a daily basis. I am sure we are losing customers (particularly the business traveller) at a rapid rate of knots, and if we continue as we are, will we be a viable concern come the much trumpetted move to the panacea which is T5?

I've worked the last 5 days and would like to offer my humble and grateful thanks to all the ATC chaps and chapessses for doing such a marvellous job in such difficult circumstances - particularly the GMCs - I could NOT do your jobs!!!! :D

[Yellow Snow]

Hi Sid,

A huge number of LL ATCO's read this forum and I'm sure your comments and the positive attitude of your fellow flight crew on here won't go unnoticed.

In GMC terms you know it's going to wrong somewhere at multiple points during the day in both T1 and T4 (last night Kilos and bravo blocked for 10-15 minutes as SAA A346 towing onto 134 couldn't park due to BA equipment on the gate, delaying both outbounds and inbounds). This is just part and parcel of the job, and most of us enjoy the challenge.

If the magic of T5 happens and loads of umper lumpers appear with red caps, the job might get a bit boring..................

[GT3]

Yellow Snow - is it not oompa loompas? ;)

By far and away the best comment on this whole debacle that is BA ground OPS at LHR was made by a BA 747 pilot yesterday to one of my collegues, he said "BA should be banned from Heathrow that would solve the problems". He was of course totally correct!

The new loadsheet system for the Airbus is also causing problems at the holding point, yesterday two different aircraft were at N1 without figures. But I only knew this when they were right at the front of the queue. Shame that BMI and Cathay were stuck behind them and could not get airborne despite being fully ready. I propose a BA holding point and then the other airlines at a separate holding point, that way they only stitch themselves up!

[Nubboy]

Thinking of the various holding points where traffic can pass, why not restrict entry to a choke point until the aircraft is ready to roll?

Or is it not that simple?

[west lakes]

As one who was on the edge of this can I offer a suggestion. It worked in the large utility Company that I work for, run by bean counters.
Yes passengers are p*****d off, Staff are frustrated, ATCO's are tearing hair out.
All the bean counters are interested in a £ beans, the thought of customers doesn't worry them - they don't have to deal with them.
We had an issuie with a third party causing lots of customer complaints, all our comments on breeches of SOP's safety breeches etc. got lost in the corporate mill.
Until that is we put a price on it, a collegue mentioned the "cost" at a meeting that led to a senior bean counter seeking me out to find out what's the cost, scribbled some figures (mainly ones they quote us to get us to work harder!!) on a piece of paper and he went away. Shock Horror the problem was dealt with in very short time.

So how to do it.

Looking at previous posts at one time 7 a/c were sitting on 09 extension for over an hour, I assume they had at least 1 engine running.
Posts on another tread suggest that fuel consumption for one of the airbus types, on idle, is 280kg/hr. I am sure you know the figures for the types you are current on.
From another forum jet fuel costs about 35p/litre.
From google fuel weighs about 817g per litre (I am sure you know the exact figures).
So 280Kg fuel is about 342l at 35p/l is £119 times 7 a/c is about £839.
For just 7 a/c once per week thats £43662 per annum
Work that out for all delay over what should be the norm and hit the bean counters with that!
If you aint BA hit your bean counters who may just get a bit peeved with BA for whats its costing.
Everyone then justs to keep operating within the rules and racking the cost up.
ATC I am sure can give info on delay but fly_bhoy's (fly_bhoy@s) littering of a/c around T1 helps increase the costs!
Hope this helps - it worked for me even though I was only talking of about £25k

[ISO100]

OK so the dream is that things will be better when T5 comes on line. Why is this?

BA will still have the same number flights, the same number of ground staff and the same equipment inventory to handle those flights. Surely the hold ups will just be moved to elsewhere on the airport. You might not have to park on remote stands anymore but the guidance will still be off for half the time for the same old logistical reasons. The load sheets will still be delivered by ACARS” and eventually T5 will fill up so there will be the same old pressure to leave the stand before this is delivered to the flight crew.

My apologies if I am missing something here but speaking as a passenger, (If I am allowed to speak in this forum) who long ago gave up on flying through Heathrow, I would love to know the answers to these questions.

[Carnage Matey!]

Aaaah but you are missing something!!!! T5 is already full and planning on extensive remote stand usage and it's not even open yet! If the situation was only as bad as your prediction I think we'd be quite relieved!:{

Never mind, T5 and a stubborn refusal to look facts in the face will solve it all!

[BOAC]

For just 7 a/c once per week thats £43662 per annum
- for heaven's sake! Don't let the beancounters see that figure. They will shed more dispatchers.

[Wessex Boy]

For just 7 a/c once per week thats £43662 per annum


To that you need to add the duty hours lost by the crew
The opportunity cost of customers shunning BA & LL for the smaller airports and LoCos(costs BA & BAA)
The opportunity cost of the delays to other BA flights (other aicraft, and delays to the next sector on those aircraft)

There are probably other costs, less tangible perhaps, that I have missed

I am ex-mil, PPL and regular SLF and have all but shunned Heathrow for this very reason. It doesn't take very long after landing to be disembarking at Luton, Stansted, BHX and East Mids that I use instead.

I am using BA from LL in July for a holiday, so am not looking forward to the return trip! If a delay does occur, I will make sure that feedback is given to the appropriate quarter!

Thanks for the insight chaps

[west lakes]

- for heaven's sake! Don't let the beancounters see that figure. They will shed more dispatchers

that's the difficult bit getting at the beancounters above the beancounters that used their creative accounting skills to convince those above it was a good idea in the first place

[Trinity 09L]

Have the bean counters quantified the cost of taxing aircraft from T5 up to 27L & R, (how many metres? or carbon footprints?) and what happens when all the BA aircraft leaving T5 for 09R departures, the only "operational" departure runway - will this not cause another bottleneck? :rolleyes:

[28L]

And who parked the swan on 423 when I arrived this morning eh?? Congratulations to 'Seagull' for being far braver than our ground guys in shooing it away :ok:
That was another first for the delay onto stand for this particular aviator....

[Desk Jockey]

Apparently the swan was at Waterside earlier. It must be his non parking day!

[southern duel]

Hi Huys as one who is at the helm of Airside Operations at LHR ona daily basis here it is from my point of view.
BA are causing us a major Headache. As everyone else has mentioned all other airlines seem to get their act together apart from BA.
We have to bail out BA time and time again simply because dispatchers are not in time to put the SEG on. We get requests from ATC all the time to park aircraft and indeed thee have been so many recently flow rates have been put on because the taxi ways are blocked.
This has been going on for approx 5 years and even though BA have promised to act nothing gets done. The customer service we provide for other airlines is now going down hill because all the leader vehicles are doing is rushing around after BA and helping out ATC and not being available to other airlines when theyre aircraft actually need parking because the parking aids are u/s or airbridge U/S.
I know ATC have been logging these events and we also are and the faxes are going to BA senior management. probably to end up in the bin. figures have been over 30 on afew occasions !! and that is just Operations logged flights. ATC will have more because some aircraft are parked by the time the marshaller gets there.
Regarding the stand entry guidance being left on , it has been discussed and quite rightly refused by the BAA & CAA for the obvious safety implications and recent incidents that involved aircrat hitting peices of equipment. Mainly left on stand by yes, youve guessed it the worlds favourite. And yes it does sometimes involve medium sized aircraft on B747 size stands.
Also Stand Entry Guidance is now not the normal AGNIS/PAPA with one switch of a button they are far more sophisticated and require input of aircraft type so can therefore not be left on.
Discussions are once again in place for charging of marshalling service after all why should we pay for the service twice. The installing and cost of SEG and the poor marshaller !!

ATC keep up the hard work, see you Tuesday !!
:ugh:

[llondel]

This is somewhere that shoey1976 could help, either himself or by getting another BBC crew to go in and film the chaos caused by excessive cutbacks. I'm sure it would help explain to a lot of people why they get to wait so long after landing. If it's really that bad I would have thought that BAA would actively assist some camera crews to take relevant footage.

[28L]

Southern Duel,
I know where you are coming from, and accept much of what you say. But (and there's always a but!) from memory the vast majority of the stands on T4 are not type-related. Normally it's just the standard flourescent tube for stop guidance with green/red (and painted line) to keep straight.

[southern duel]

Yep that is correct for the time being.
There is a plan to have safegate rolled out across the patch. LGW are doing the same
T5 will have it and there are stands in T3 & T2 that already have it installed.
Actually T4 have slightly improved over the last couple of years regarding dispachers apart from arrivals on the old whiskey stands. The problem in T4 at the moment is lack of Tow crews in the mornings . It is T1 that is the major Problem
:\

[GT3]

T1 complete shambles all afternoon, very few parked under their own steam well done to the Leaders :D but as SD says it is not your job and I now only get a leader called out to help someone park if an airline other than BA is getting delayed. Outbounds not ready when they get to the holding point. If an ATCO is appearing to ask every BA when they arrive at the holding point to report ready that is me, unsurprisingly not one BA aircraft was ready on reaching today despite some decent taxi distances.

On days off now and I can avoid the shambles that is British Airways operations at Heathrow.

[southern duel]

Hi GT3
Good job i was not in yesterday then !!!!!!

Interesting that there has not been many comments on these postings by "The Worlds Favourite" Perhaps they are all red faced.

Actually i can just see this scenario happening. Just imagine delays throughout the day caused by BA causing flow restrictions to be introduced due to the taxiways being clogged up. It gets worse and worse into the evening and as a result other airlines are being affected. It comes to 11:30pm Local time and we cannot afford to let every non BA airline get airborne due to the night noise restrictions so we refuse a few aircraft. The Sxxx will def hit the fan then.

Wonder if BA would pick up the bill for the delays & hotel accom etc for the poor pax

:hmm:

[L337]

Interesting that there has not been many comments on these postings by "The Worlds Favourite" Perhaps they are all red faced.

Why should a BA pilot be red faced? Why is it "interesting"? It is not my/ our fault that we are so short staffed on the ground, and in general a total and utter embarrassment at LHR. It is the pilots who have to deal with this disaster day in and day out. It is also the pilots who are complaining loudly on the BA Flt Ops bulletin board about these issues. To no response I might add.

More than that, there are plenty of posts on this thread by BA crew.

[Megaton]

Nothing to do with the airport operators selling more slots than the infrastructure can realistically cope with then?

[expediteoff]

"Nothing to do with the airport operators selling more slots than the infrastructure can realistically cope with then?"

Answer - No!!

[Strimmerdriver]

Pretty much agreeing with above; LHR works because of the skill of ATCOs despite BA management bonus building savings.
Attracted as I am to denying BAW clearance beyond LAM etc until they have a stand I see the subsequent diversions would be a nightmare so how about sending us to those new T5 taxyways until BA resource the terminals properly?

[old,not bold]

"Nothing to do with the airport operators selling more slots than the infrastructure can realistically cope with then?"

Answer - No!!

On a point of order - the airport operator neither sells nor allocates slots. All it might do is decide how many there are, ie the interval between them, but that's more governed by ATM rules than anything else.

Slots are allocated by ACL (which is airline-owned) for most large airports in UK, and transferred between airlines by mutual agreement and large sums of cash, in a very "grey" market.

[Point Seven]

Strimmer

Great idea in principle but you are merely placing more work on the shoulders of ATC and crews as they have to spend more time navigating their way around the airfield which will always be difficult as, from the 09R extension, it against the prevailing traffic flows.

There is an extremely simple solution to this issue - that is to employ more TRMs and have them around when the aircraft come in. BA's own schedule should come as no surprise to them.

P7

[GT3]

BA's own schedule should come as no surprise to them

But strangely it does appear to be a surprise to them on a daily basis!

[BEagle]

And that's one of the many reasons why I will NEVER travel with ba - particularly from Thiefrow.

Today I flew LH to BHX. From touchdown to leaving the car park took 35 minutes. It'd probably take that long from touchdown to stand at LHR - and, of course, there would be several orbits of Lambourn or wherever preceding the landing and subsequent taxying farce.

Why on earth does anyone with any other choice still use LHR? It's an utter shambles.

[itsonlyme]

As I type this I'm strapping on my tin helmet and hiding under the stairs cupboard in anticipation of the flak I'll get .... but .... I'm genuinely interested about this "not being ready on reaching the threshold" bit. I've only been flying with BA for 4 months so don't have reams of data going back years but in four months I haven't had one occasion of not being ready when reaching the threshold. No dispatchers etc etc ahhh, that's a different story! Can anyone truely in the know please confirm or deny? (an ATCO perhaps) ... because if it is true that most BA flights are not ready on reaching and I have NEVER experienced that then I must be truely blessed and am off to put my lottery numbers on before my good luck runs out...

[Gonzo]

itsonlyme,

It does seem to vary. I can recall a day not too long ago when I had BA a/c at N1, S1N, S1S, N2E and N2W and two others who were all waiting for figures.

Sometimes you might not have a problem, a lot of times the delay at the holding point is upwards of ten to fifteen minutes, which often 'hides' this.

A lot of us worry what will happen when you're all coming out of T5 for 09R and have a 100m taxi! There's already talk of taking BA a/c north out of T5, then clockwise around E and to the back of the queue, giving you all a chance to be ready when you get to the hold.

Of course, another issue is that we do get the odd one who either accepts a line up, or marshalling instruction and then says 'errr, we're not ready' thus stitching up others behind. I believe that the AIP EGLL section still states that if you're not going to be ready on reaching, you should tell us. Technically we shouldn't have to ask.

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

Gonzo

I think you are refering to the following from the AIP:

"EGLL AD 2.20 – LOCAL TRAFFIC REGULATIONS

e Departures – Minimum Runway Occupancy Time

i On receipt of line-up clearance pilots should ensure, commensurate with safety and standard operating procedures, that they are able to
taxi into the correct position at the hold and line up on the runway as soon as the preceding aircraft has commenced its take-off roll.

iv Pilots not able to comply with these requirements should notify ATC as soon as possible once transferred to Heathrow Tower Departures
Frequency."

We can get in to a bit of a "catch 22" since we are only supposed to "monitor" the AIR DEPs frequency and often the first call from the controller is a line-up clearance. This problem is further compounded as you rightly point out, because often we haven't got the figures when we change to the TWR frequency but we do have them by the time we get to the runway. It just depends where we are in the departure queue. Information we don't always have any more because conditional clearances have been restricted!

I'm not making excuses - just trying to provide a bit of background. (Though, I've a feeling you know all this already!)

G W-H

[GT3]

As Gonzo says if there are a lot of aircraft waiting at the hold then not being ready gets hidden. However when there are only 6 or 7 there and the taxi time is under 10 minutes BA aircraft are often not ready. For example the 747s off the europier due to their short taxi time will not be ready, so you have to hold them somewhere in the acres of space we have available!

[ayrprox]

ok, am not tower rated so be gentle...

if a ba a/c reaches the hold with other a/c behind and he is not ready, can you not taxy him on and back off the runway to join the back of the queue again, or would this operationally be impractical. just a thought that it would cause ba non atc attributable operational delays ie money

[NigelOnDraft]

Gonzo... There's already talk of taking BA a/c north out of T5, then clockwise around E and to the back of the queue, giving you all a chance to be ready when you get to the hold."talk of" is probably not enough :ugh: A number of ATCOs here have spoken of their "private" arrangements for dealing with BA... all very sensible and understandable but won't solve the problem.
However, when they become "public" rules, BA will have to take note :{ Personally I like all the suggestons made here:
Leave us in the hold until we have a stand
Don't long push someone allowing a BA into a cul-de-sac since we will then stop short
Give us specific longer taxi routes, or send us to sin-bins, until we say we are ready
Your I believe that the AIP EGLL section still states that if you're not going to be ready on reaching, you should tell usWhen we get transferred to Twr are you saying you want us to call you and say "not ready"? As stated earlier, trouble is we just "monitor"... or maybe as we get transferred to Twr, tell Gnd ion the signoff call "by the way, we're not ready..."?
we do get the odd one who either accepts a line up, or marshalling instruction and then says 'errr, we're not ready'Given our poor performance, it is not surprising then that all BA issues are put in the same box. Please be aware that there are quite a number of circumstances where we "are ready", accept line up etc., and then become "not ready" e.g technical problem / call from the back / message from Company. Safety must come first, and "pressure" to takeoff because of a punishment otherwise compromises this...

[Gonzo]

NoD,

When we get transferred to Twr are you saying you want us to call you and say "not ready"? As stated earlier, trouble is we just "monitor"... or maybe as we get transferred to Twr, tell Gnd ion the signoff call "by the way, we're not ready..."?

Personally, if you're approaching the clearance limit (HORKA/OSTER/ETTIV/S1N etc) and not ready I'd recommend a call to TWR to say: "we'll report ready" adding the reason if you feel able. Also similar if you're given marshalling. It's far better for us to know so that we can change the marshalling for you or those behind.

Given our poor performance, it is not surprising then that all BA issues are put in the same box. Please be aware that there are quite a number of circumstances where we "are ready", accept line up etc., and then become "not ready" e.g technical problem / call from the back / message from Company. Safety must come first, and "pressure" to takeoff because of a punishment otherwise compromises this...

Don't worry, this is known (believe me, we often get phone calls from Company too! - although it doesn't help if they tell us to urgently stop the BA306 from taking off as his loadsheet is wrong...and it turns out he's actually called BAW41Y :ugh:). I certainly do not put any pressure on anyone to take off by threatening a punishment, that's dangerous, and I would expect my colleagues to be the same. Just sharing info is all I'm after. The odd one who accepts a taxy up to SB1, for example, and then says that they're still awaiting figures really b:mad:rs it up for those behind. I too have got into the habit of asking most BA (certainly all T4 on 27L) to report ready, meaning I lose even more control of the R/T.

And those who advocate taxying the 'offender' down the runway haven't thought it through....in most situations it will actually take more time and cause more delay. I don't think I've done it in all my time at LL.

[PaulW]

Itll take a couple of years, but a BA manager will have the bright idea to close centralised load control and give all the "TRMs" a new title, "Aircraft Dispatcher" who will have a license and be able to finalise load sheets on stand and send them to the aircraft within 5 mins of doors closed......Wait a minute thats the system we used to have.:ugh: Centralised Load Control is a complete joke as many other companies have realised to their cost and closed their departments. Its not just pilots that have to deal with this everyday, the rest of BA has to deal with it too, and unless we operate the systems and procedures as management intend, they will never change it back, or make the changes that will improve it, and merely expect us all to muddle throught and call it another success. A lot of the calls I hear over the VHF give the definate impression that there is a fair percentage of flight crew that have little comprehension of how the rest of the company operates, reagarding where are our final figures/who do we speak to get them?..no-one, CLC dont have VHF, why is the engineer taking so long to arrive? he is on another aircraft who also want to get going. where is our loading team? thanks to Single Line Allocation and changes in numbers in a team and single hold loading they are taking longer than before to unload/load another aircraft and often compound the problem, or do not join in and oppose decisions until it affects them directly - after the change has come to pass. Such as Single Line Allocation for the loaders, or CLC. Maybe a you should do a few days on the ground to see the shackles put on groundstaff by bad management decisions. Often we work shadow in other departments for understanding, it would be good if Flt Ops did the same.

[Point Seven]

NigelOnDraft

Just for some background, the idea of taxying North out of T5 and down Taxiway Echo for an 09R departure has been thrown up as necessary at certain times of day, according to computer modelling that NATS was asked to undertake (with a proposed schedule).

It would appear that when the airport gets busy it will not be possible to simply drop out of the bottom of T5 as it will impact on a/c trying to push off the bottom of the pier served gates. Notwithstanding this, at the moment LHR ATC have no confidence in BA a/c being fully ready on reaching and this is why they are talking of implementing this method all of the time, post T5.

BUT we have got 8 months to keep the pressure on BA management and make a concerted team effort to improve overall performance that will benefit BA and the airfield as a whole.

P7

[PAXboy]

[a passenger speaking]
The sequence of events that have led BA to this low level will be so long and tortuous that it will be nigh impossible to get back.

Modern 'management' makes lots of little changes and each builds (if that is the right word!) on the previous until the law of unintended consequences overwhelms the process.

Even without knowing the operation, I can guess that the orginating idea was to 'empower' lower levels of management. They would have been encouraged to 'take responsibility' and 'find solutions'. The solutions they found would have been good for them and their section/department but out of kiltre with everyone else, thus forcing problems externally on their neighbours in the chain of actions to get an a/c off and back. Each such section/department would, in it's turn be getting external pressure from their neighbours - but fail to understand that they were all upsetting each other. That is because the rush to sort out their problem took priority over the problem of getting a/c off and back.

Secondly, all of this is compounded by each section/department trying to save money in order to win gold stars from the accountants. The people at the top look at each component but lose sight -and more critically, lose control - of the whole process. The advantage of this is that the folks at the top no longer have respobsibility either and can fire people and escape the blame.

This fragmentation of business started in the mid 80s and accelerated in the 90s. Currently I see no stopping it. If you want another example, the present Labour govt have been attempting to run the country on the same basis for ten years - and it has not worked out too well.

Until the whole system grinds to a halt - nothing will change. The rest of the good people at EGLL and all the other users of the airport are currently subsidising BA. If they stop, the problem will be fixed BUT if they stop it will appear ot be their fault. :hmm:

[L337]

A lot of us worry what will happen when you're all coming out of T5 for 09R and have a 100m taxi!

This was the situation at the old HKG. The ramp and the threshold to R13 sat side by side. The solution then, and I am sure the solution will be, is to do all your checks, and get the cabin ready before we call for taxi.

Then again, who knows. I only fly 'em.

[Dozza2k]

I think my favourite T4 day was when we were late back (of course) from CDG. achieved a 40min flight time due no holding................to arrive into a 50 minute taxi from touchdown to on chox, due to general inability of the company to achieve anything.......no stand........given stand (occupied)......no guidance......marshalled on.......then had to wait for pax buses.
Fun times.
I genuinly feel sorry for anyone trying to connect with us thru LHR.
d2k



also my chief concern about T5 is when we are on the 09's, the queues often stretch well past the entry to the T5 apron........so will this not lead to us pushing off stand and then sitting still as the queue shuffles past.......therefore blocking inbound/outbounds on the t5 apron?

I hope it has a dual centreline at least (like MUC,CDG,FRA etc)

[Carnage Matey!]

Itll take a couple of years, but a BA manager will have the bright idea to close centralised load control and give all the "TRMs" a new title, "Aircraft Dispatcher" who will have a license and be able to finalise load sheets on stand and send them to the aircraft within 5 mins of doors closed......Wait a minute thats the system we used to have

Aye, we used to have that system and that didn't work either. Countless are the minutes I've whiled away at the holding point calling Speedbird Dispatch to get the final figures. The only place on the network we get them within 5 minutes is at the outstations that are responsible for regional CLC. 5 minutes at Heathrow? Forget it!

[MrBunker]

We're a sham - there's no thought for pax, airport operators, NATS or anyone else for that matter. Don't mistake that the line guys in any capacity at BA don't care deeply, it's just increasingly hard to push water uphill when the slope is steepening daily.
MrB
Oh and as a PS, I do wish some of my colleagues wouldn't lie to ATC to try and advantage themselves. We're not fully ready with holds open just because there's a 10 minute airfield delay. It's not airmanship and it certainly isn't professional.

[Carnage Matey!]

As an aside, a recent missive from management asked us all to remember that BA do many things well and not to focus on the fact that our LHR operation is a total shambles, so I guess even they have grasped the shocking state our home base is in.

[WHBM]

Just as a commentary, here was an experience on a BA A320 departure from T1 in the last few days.

STD 0955. At 0930 still no details shown on the departure board, then called to gate arriving there about 5 minutes later. Aircraft on stand and Gate Gourmet truck already servicing aircraft. On time departure looked just about achievable.

Sat waiting for 20 minutes until boarding commenced at 0955.

At 1010 baggage holds were opened and baggage loading commenced.

At 1015 skipper makes apologetic PA for delay ascribing it to “the aircraft having to be towed across from maintenance”. An evident inaccuracy as 1) It’s now 40 minutes since I saw the GG truck up against the aircraft 2) aircraft was on stand in time for on-time departure if everybody worked at it 3) Being brought across from maintenance is not a ‘reason’ for delay, something like No Tractor Organised In Time would be a ‘reason’ 4) What are all these tasks only just being started now ?

At 1035 door closed.

But here’s the rub. If the delay reason being put into the system is blamed on a late tow, that is obviously wrong. The gate was just not organised. We complain about how Waterworld are not on the job about the current difficulties but if they are fed inaccurate information then no wonder the wrong items get addressed.

You will also note that Easyjet would have had TWO Airbus in and out of a gate at Stansted, including catering, baggage, etc, in the time it took us to get organised (and of course as our aircraft had come across from maintenance there were no incoming pax to handle).

And so we arrived at St Petersburg, by no means the most well-equipped station on the network (BA use a handling agent) about 40 minutes late. All the handling staff were in place on the ramp, we zipped out and the baggage was delivered in a fraction of the time T1 takes to do it. How come ?

[PaulW]

Sounds like an aircraft change to me. If they had to tow it from the base, it needs security to do a deep security check when it arrives on stand. Cabin crew will hang around in the jetway until they have finished and will rightly refuse to do their security check until catering have finished, which is why it takes longer. Things definately need to improve but all is not as clear and simple as it may appear from the terminal windows.
Frankly I find it more impressive that when BA and other companies do get it right they can turn a 220 seat 777 or 299 seat 747 four classes with all the rubbish, blankets, wash kits, magazines that goes with that, dress the seats, 8 tonnes of catering alone to come off and on and all the freight, baggage and passengers off and on in in 90 mins while carrying out a daily engineering check and uplifting 100+ tonnes of fuel onboard. Than a wipe down 737 in 20 mins, no refuelling, no freight, no daily check and not much catering.

[747-436]

Most places other than Heathrow are quicker with ramp work, there is still a lot of demarcation going on on the ramp at some parts of LHR as far as I know which slows things down a lot.

Sounds like it will be fun for BA at T5 when 09R is used, I guess aircraft won't be able to queue down both A and B taxiways as it will block one end of the T5 taxiways for BA to get in and out.

[Geffen]

They will still queue on A and B south. T5 stuff will just take the long route around A and B north!

[Trinity 09L]

If 09R is blocked for any reason - so single ops are necessary on 09L - is there sufficient space at the holds at 09L for all types of outbound traffic? or has T5 construction restricted the space available?:uhoh:

[martinidoc]

Breaking News!!! From long suffering BA SLF

Reports are coming in that the BA 1321 arrived at LHR on stand T1 5A within 1minute of scheduled arrival. Guidance system working, airbridge working, ground staff to open door, and passengers alighted almost on time.

A BA spokeman announced that an enquiry was to be set up to investigate why staff were behaving in a fashion likely to raise unrealistic expectations amongst PAX, thereby bringing the airline into disrepute.

[Human Factor]

Reports are coming in that the BA 1321 arrived at LHR on stand T1 5A within 1minute of scheduled arrival. Guidance system working, airbridge working, ground staff to open door, and passengers alighted almost on time.


Obviously a hoax. :E

[point5]

No restrictions for single runway 09L but they will depart in the order they arrive at the holding point.

[mcfloss]

well as someone who has to secure your cabin im very surprised you think we take too long! in 10 years ive never known departure to be delayed by securing cabins in fact im usually sat on jump seat well before departure taking in a few senic circuits of heathrow before the off:hmm:

[bermudatriangle]

Cockup....brewery.....same sh.t....different terminal...LHR,what can we say...a nightmare on bath road to all who have to use it.the only saving grace is that FRA and CDG are just as bad.The european hub that seems to have working procedures is AMS,and with acres of space for taxiway expansion,can only get better.T5 will be a huge improvement for BA passengers enjoying a smooth transfer procedure and enhanced facilities whilst still on terra firma.Alas,I believe all will continue as at present when call for push and start receives the same curt response and we have to take our place in that ever lengthening queue...just realise how lucky we are that we don't have to remove our shoes and declare any liquids before we get pushed back from stand....if only my continuing optimism could make things get better !!

[GT3]

VERY false!

Back to normal capacity for some time now. If there are too many planes at the airport at one time then there will be inevitable delays.

[Gonzo]

Moi? Vindictive? :p

ATC are working at a reduced capacity, so nothing we can do!

Depends which watch are on!!!!! :E

[The Nr Fairy]

And if we're into that, was the captain of LHR - GVA yesterday evening being economical or truthful when he told us that the 35 - 40 minute delay was "BAA couldn't find us a parking space" ?

I don't care if it's BAA or BA's fault, but I do think pax should be peeved at the right people !

[Hotel Mode]

Well BA allocate the spaces, but BAA provide the lack of infrastructure.

[southern duel]

If it was the BA735 it landed 18;20z and on chocks at 18:40z which is 20 minutes and it landed 09L so had a little bit of taxying to do. Not that bad considering it had to cross 09R as well

BA do the stand allocation for T4 NOT the BAA.


Just wait till BA do the stand allocation for T5 !!! I am sure it will work like clockwork

:ugh:

[Yellow Snow]

Mike Jenvey
holding in the (40+ mins) queue for departure

In my 8 years at LHR I've not known the deps queue be 40 mins other than at times of very bad weather, airfield incidents etc. In normal ops which we've been for the last month that would equate to over 30 aircraft at the holding pioint.:eek::eek:

30 aircraft started by delivery, never mind at the holding point would raise a lot of eyebrows:eek::eek:

Either way the skippers PA was bull$hit:ok:

[BusyB]

The 40 mins is probably refering to total taxi time from pushto T/O. I have certainly had 40+ mins taxi on a number of occasions.:)

[Nubboy]

And not just 09R either:*

[Yellow Snow]

Ok I understand now Mike.

Cheers

[LHR_777]

Wow...well, CLC have taken a battering on this thread....!
So, as a BA CLC Hub Controller, allow me to share a few things, from the 'other side'.
Today, I planned a nice little A319 departure from T4. The Captain was on day 1 of his trip, so no excuses for 'late inbound'. Trim was released 180 minutes before departure.
At -60, I try to finalise the fuel figures, but the Captain hasn't entered them in FICO. No worries, we've still got plenty of time. At -40, the Dispatcher phones me, asking for the Provisional Load Sheet. I can't provide it, because the Captain still hasn't finalised the fuel. At -27, we're ready to start boarding, cabin crew are in place, the Passenger Services team are at the gate and all almost bags are loaded. It's looking good for that elusive 'on-time departure', except, the Captain STILL isn't onboard!
So, it's -10. All passengers are in their seats, we're ready to close doors and push-back. However, the provisional load sheet is STILL not completed, as the Captain hasn't provided the fuel. Then, I get a call, from the Captain.
"Sorry, got chatting to a mate over coffee at Compass Centre. 6 decimal 5 final fuel please, and hurry up, we don't want to be late pushing!"
Cheeky b*****d!
Fuel topped-off, pushed-back ten minutes late. Dispatcher sends me the final dispatch info 3 minutes later. ACARS sent within 60 seconds and acknowledged 4 minutes later.
Now, that of course is just an example of the process. But there are SO many factors that delay the delivery of the ACARS loadsheet to the aircraft in a timely fashion. In this instance, the delay was, in fact, the flight crew, and was recorded as such.
It just shows, we ALL need to work together to make our daily operation work, and to not screw it up for all of Heathrows' other users. Rocket science, it isn't.....

[Nubboy]

How about a provisional load sheet with sector fuel (sword or whatever your name for the plog is) and give the guy an accurate underload?:sad:

We can add 800kgs and LMC it without a new loadsheet.

It's still giving his lateship the final say, but unless it's bad weather then 800kg extra for a 319 covers quite a lot of contingencys.(spelling?)

Top him off (or top him if you'd rather;)) wave away the fueller and point and point out how you've saved the day against all odds, again:ok:

[LHR_777]

...that we should be able to do a provisional with SWORD or CIRRUS fuel, but very often the final fuel is several thousand KG's over that in the system. So, we're told (by our management) NO provisional without either ACARS or FICO fuel, or final fuel from the TRM.
(As an example, a LHR-MAN sector today increased by 4500KGS. A LHR-JFK increased by 8000KGS). My (non-CLC) LHR-SIN last night increased by 12,500KGS. )

[Mick Stability]

Assuming you are who you say you are, on at least half the occasions recently when ex-CCO or Cat Lounge, when the fuel figure has been input, the system has crashed. Secondly, when short turned through LHR, more often than not the next sector fuel figure is sent via the ACARS arrival message.

It's funny isn't it, how every other station on the network seems to be able to cope with a turnround with efficiency in as little as half an hour, yet LHR is where it all comes tumbling down?

Your offensive characterisation of BA 'flight-deck' is noted. If only you knew how much we do every day to save this basket case of an airline.

Go back to your latte and get off our backs.

I'm sorry, but my good nature has run out. (1hr of my life wasted yet again waiting for a bus yesterday)

[NigelOnDraft]

LHR_777So, we're told (by our management) NO provisional without either ACARS or FICO fuel, or final fuel from the TRMAs Mick says, the system we use to enter Fuel Figures has gone downhill recently - and often won't accept the figure... and even when it does, who knows if you'll see it?

We have not been informed that this is "important" - after all, until the cutover, we / dispatcher / refueller all meet aircraft side ~STD-35 (SH) and resolved all the issues there, and the diaptcher could do the provisional PDQ.

I for one will aim to be better about "entering" the figures - however, there are numerous reasons why we sometimes cannot, or will need to then alter them.

[Dozza2k]

McFloss, it sounds like you are GLA based CC?

If so, i (we) have no issues with you at all! The GLA girls can get a cabin secure before even we are ready! Bloody Perfect!

Its some of our luvvies at LHR who can be so infuriatingly slow. I've seen them chatting in forward galley and even changing shoes! wtf!

[littlebritainredcap]

must agree with LHR 777 as a CLC, it is pointless as a TRM in gving a sword or cirrus fuel of say 5000 and innsing a provisional based on this.

The number of years I have been dispatching and issued a provisional on system figures only to find the captain wants return fuel, extra fuel on CPH routes as the system fuel allows almost nil alternate and diversion so fugures end up being nearley 2T higher.

Also weather or long holds you may as well roll two dice to give you a fuel figure! Whatever you use almost certainally ends up being wrong!

[Airbus Unplugged]

Tsk! Imagine that, flight crew deciding on the best fuel to load in the circumstances. They really think they're in charge of that aircraft, don't they? They'll be signing the tech log and assessing the state of the aircraft yet, and then they'll want to know what the weather's like?

How difficult can it be? It's all just pushing buttons and reading the paper anyway.

Isn't it?:ugh:

[Carnage Matey!]

I don't think anyones complaining about the flight crew deciding the fuel load. They're complaining about not advising anybody of it until just before departure because they were having a coffee with their mate. Thats just p poor performance.

[Nubboy]

Course the other way to crack it is to have a copy of the navlog at crew report and being able to let the despatcher know before you're dragged kicking an screaming from the nice comfy crew room. ooops sorry thats the set up at Not Big Airlines;)
Also works well when you do leave the crew room on time but there's trouble at t' checkpoint. At least you know there's a chance the plane might be fuelled and ready when you arrive :ok:

[Megaton]

I've not been on the shorthaul fleet as long as some (or even most!) but I can only think of one occasion in the last two years where we've not sent fuel figures via FICO before leaving CC. I don't dispute that it may happen from time to time and I agree that it is pretty slack behaviour but I can't see that it's a significant cause of late loadsheets.

[Hotel Mode]

And as this thread is discussing the continual late arrival of the FINAL figures by Acars its a bit irrelevant discussing something that happens long before the doors are closed.

Its not unreasonable to expect final figures 10 mins after doors closed surely.

[Sick Squid]

There are several occasions, particularly tankering sectors, where I will not finalise fuel until I've had a chance to see what is happening to the ZFW; remember quite often the planned tankering figure is MLW limited. Bitten badly once by this, and had to offload pax with hand-baggage only onto the next flight (no inconvenience to them, we were already delayed by a late inbound and they only arrived about 10 minutes after us.) In those instances fuel required can and often does go down instead of up.

Also with regard to the CIRRUS tankering figure it is in my experience almost always wrong; carrying the exact figure will lead to the next sector having up to 400kg LESS then the CIRRUS planned return figure, mostly due to inaccuracies in the taxi allowance ex-LHR and a burn figure that at my most charitable I will describe as optimistic.

I'm never one to knee-jerk against change, but am seriously struggling to see any benefit to this new system. With an operation of the size and complexity of BA's shorthaul Heathrow set-up having a person at the front end of the departure who could juggle the figures around at the last minute was a godsend.

[groundbum]

beggy beggy please somebody from BA issue me a pass for a week and I will come and nosy round the entire system to see what's going on!
I *love* ops research, which is what this is, and I bet in a week of wandering the environs of BA's LHR operation you could find so many left and right hand things going on it would make your eyes water.
With the fuel, I understand how there are savings to be made in not carrying "extra" fuel around, but somebody must work out how much time/effort/cash/customer goodwill/on time departure could be saved by just throwing an extra 5% at it in the planning stage. For the extra $1M/year think how, from the sound of it, slicker the LHR operation would be!
Quite why the management types aren't already doing these teeny tiny improvements makes you wonder? Maybe the LHR station chief should go to an outstation for a week and his/her namesake from the outstation do LHR for the same week? Probably they would both learn a lot!
G

[52049er]

And of course, to put it in perspective, it would take 175 years of every BA departure carrying 2 tonnes extra fuel to equal the cost of how much we are going to get charged for our superb managers phoning our competitors to decide on how big a fuel surcharge we are going for........

[DCS99]

As ex-BA ground employee it distresses me to see ground and cockpit crew at each others' throats.

What happened to "A Day In The Life" and "To Be The Best"?
Am sure Colin Marshall would have seen this thread and sorted things out.

And on a technical matter - what happened to the flight planning system SWORD?? Was it that bad? I don't think so.

[BOAC]

DCS - 'Cirrus' shaved a kilo or two (hundred) off figures and someone's bonus went up so out went SWORD.

As SS says, it is VERY common to wait for ZFM before deciding tanks fuel, and in my time there was never a problem in the dispatcher checking with me for the figure before issuing the provisional. Normally the absence of a figure in the computer system prompted the cheery 'visit' to the office to check and rarely caused a problem. I suspect it is the Centralised L C as someone else has said that is the problem. No doubt under-resourced and under-staffed (think 'bonus':ugh:) but just think of all those 'on-time-off-stand' departures.............................

[fyrefli]

With the fuel, I understand how there are savings to be made in not carrying "extra" fuel around, but somebody must work out how much time/effort/cash/customer goodwill/on time departure could be saved by jus throwing an extra 5% at it in the planning stage. For the extra $1M/year think how, from the sound of it, slicker the LHR operation would be!

Unfortunately therein lies the difference between an accountant and an economist :)