Couple of mil ATC questions

[silverknapper]

Hi guys

We fly into RAF bases quite frequently, and would like to think we (hopefully!) do a reasonable job of it! Just a couple of questions that I have noticed no one really knows the answer to. I would appreciate any feedback.

1. On a PAR once we get visual do you like to be told so? Some guys do, and the talkdown continues all the way to the deck regardless. Some times when we say we are visual the talkdown stops.

2. When we are receiving our clearances, some controllers say "frequency once airborne "123.45". Should we treat this as we would in civvy fields and go straight to that frequency, or wait until we are told. There is nothing in the jeps or aerads which clarifies this.

Thanks in advance.

SK

[Monkey Madness]

It depends on the controller and the situation....

IMO if the PAR or indeed SRA was requested by an ATC unit "for controller training/validation/consolidation/currency" then usually we like to do the whole thing. We will only need to know if you don't get visual by your declared DH/DA so we send you round.

However if it was a run-of the mill GCA and you're visual and want to continue as so then let us know. We get a lot of civil traffic here so the standard for us if you call visual is to say "Continue Visually, you have been cleared to Land, remain this frequency"


2. On the frequency question, for our airfield we actually say "...London Control, Freq 123.45, When Advised" as part of our departure clearance. This is mainly because we have to ensure that the SID is being followed before releasing the aircraft to the next agency (regardless of whether it's going to LACC or the Deps controller downstairs)
Clear as mud.... :}

[Fox3snapshot]

PRA....hmmmm those were the days! Withdrawn from Oz and NZ many years ago, technology caught up with us :p

Think the UK and maybe the US are the only people left in the world doing them....:sad:

Was always handy having a window that faced the threshold from the GCA room and do a legendary 'talk down to touchdown' by pulling the drapes back and watching the jet first hand, alternatively open the hotline to the tower and get them to relay the amounts of feet until the aircraft touched the deck! ;)

Still think its a valuable ATC mechanism for recovering acft, unfortunately my opionion is in the minority when it comes to 'progress' :(

[chevvron]

Still some UK Mil aircraft which don't carry ILS so it's a necessary evil.
Personally my thought is, civil aircraft has alternator failure; loses battery power; unable to pick up ILS; unable to transmit; but can still be given a PAR with 200ft DH with receiver only.

[Tommyc81]

Think the UK and maybe the US are the only people left in the world doing them....
Actually not, PAR/PRA is still used at all Swedish airforce wings. Even the Nordic Battlegroup will bring equipment to be able to make ground controlled precision approaches wherever it may be necessary. I've never actually had a rating for PAR/PRA myself but it was great fun when the PAR/PRA-controller was really busy so you had to line them up really good on the llz and even a bit down the glide (still got a current SRE/SRA rating :)) before you could hand them over.

1. On a PAR once we get visual do you like to be told so? Some guys do, and the talkdown continues all the way to the deck regardless. Some times when we say we are visual the talkdown stops.
Monkey Madness answer applies to Sweden as well.

[Fox3snapshot]

Thanks for that, wasn't sure who was still doing them. :ok:

I reckon they are still the way ahead but the bean counters don't unfortunately. :rolleyes:

[chevvron]

If the CR62 was set up correctly, a controller could 'learn' to operate the servos so that a talkdown to touchdown was entrely possible. By this I mean you 'moved' the scan of the two radar beams to follow the aircraft, and adjusted gain at the same time to keep the blip as small as possible.
If you've ever seem the Discovery Wings programme about the Challenger 604 bizjet, you'll know what I mean. As far as I know, RAF airfields were only authorised to do this in emergency; my unit was authorised to do it any time.

[London Mil]

Back in the days where safety management was a rude phrase we used to do it all the time. I certainly recall doing a talkdown on a Britannia 737 which had failed to get in on a Cat I ILS. We offered him a PAR and successfully took him a 'little below' the procedure minima.
The real art with CR62 servo and gain was keeping radar contact on multiple aircraft on a 3-4nm stream with one controller servoing not only for himself but for the second talkdown man. Then again, I could bore you with stories about the SLA3C.......:zzz:

[ATCO17]

Lon Mil...did you ever have the pleasure (or not!) of talking down a Hunter one-in-one? Very interesting! Servo right up and get the thing on at three miles, still at 3000', dropping like a stone. Great times!!

[Get me some traffic]

Try doing a Hunter one in one using D/F! That was fun (providing it was only practice)!

[BDiONU]

If the CR62 was set up correctly, a controller could 'learn' to operate the servos so that a talkdown to touchdown was entrely possible. By this I mean you 'moved' the scan of the two radar beams to follow the aircraft, and adjusted gain at the same time to keep the blip as small as possible.
As far as I know, RAF airfields were only authorised to do this in emergency; my unit was authorised to do it any time.
Hhhmmm, I recall quite a few times at a couple of RAF units when you advised the pilot that they were approaching Decision Height you got back "keep talking!" and did ;)

BD

[anotherthing]

The Hunter 1 in 1 from 3 miles on PAR was the easy bit of the procedure..... getting it there was the 'art'... often done by committee towards the end of the hunter days, when it was practiced less frequently!!

[silverknapper]

Thanks guys.
It certainly never fails to impress me when we pop out just how accurately you have vectored us:D

[NorthSouth]

Have they sorted those problems with the new RPAR at RAF bases yet? I understand it tends to lock on to anything else it can see coming down the approach. I remember some years ago wondering at a controller mentoring a trainee doing his first ever live PAR on the CR62. The display was just stuffed with all kinds of rubbish and the trainee, like me, was wondering how anyone could figure out where the aircraft was in amongst all the clutter. But the controller had no doubt and kept that aircraft bang on the centreline and the glidepath all the way down. Great to watch, great to fly too!
NS

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Once had a Lightning (what else!) on 09 at Leuchars which had a relatively high DH for a PAR (Cat I) approach of about 320' or so (due to terrain), if memory serves. Got to the "Passing decision height, advisory information follows.." (pause for effect) and got the "KEEP TALKING!" about 8 octaves above middle C and did so in both azimuth and elevation (one was supposed to stop GP info at DH). Cool dude fighter ace landed in the thick haar that had crept up the airfield (as it did). He shut one down to taxy back in.

Never said thanks of course!

PAR - best video game in town when 600 mtrs and 8/200 (ish!)