Runway Occupancy

[fireflybob]

Talking about airfields with AG only now (not licensed ATCU) - legally speaking may I commence take off roll before the preceding against which has just landed has passed the holding point line (ie when vacating) when one can clearly see that said aircraft is physically clear of the "runway"?

I have my own views on this but would be interested in the ATC perspective - thanks for any help.

[2 sheds]

FFB

Not wishing to split hairs, but you have defined the scenario yourself and, by definition, there can be no "ATC perspective". It's back to basics - see the Rules of the Air.

[bookworm]

My view is yes.

‘runway’ means an area, whether or not paved, which is provided for the take-off or landing run of aircraft;

A flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if the
runway is not clear of other aircraft unless, in the case of an aerodrome having an air traffic control unit, that unit otherwise authorises.

Unless the section of taxiway between the hold an the edge of the runway is provided 'for the take-off or landing run of aircraft', it is not part of the 'runway', and it does not have to be clear for a subsequent landing.

[Chilli Monster]

Yes

Once the aircraft has left the runway, but is not beyond the holding point, it becomes a temporary obstruction in the "Cleared and Graded area". At an ATC unit you would be told of the obstruction, and take off would be at your discretion. Since all movements at an A/G / FISO airfield are of that status anyway, and you can see the obstruction, then no problem.

[fireflybob]

Thanks for the replies, guys, much appreciated.

[bekolblockage]

Unless the section of taxiway between the hold an the edge of the runway is provided 'for the take-off or landing run of aircraft', it is not part of the 'runway', and it does not have to be clear for a subsequent landing.

Once the aircraft has left the runway, but is not beyond the holding point, it becomes a temporary obstruction in the "Cleared and Graded area". At an ATC unit you would be told of the obstruction, and take off would be at your discretion.

Hmmmmm. Some interesting replies.
You might want to think twice if you're operating your 747-400 or A380 from a 45M runway. Unless you like flying with the last few metres of your wings clipped.

[eyeinthesky]

bekolblockage:

Last time I checked, there were no airfields in the UK with an A/G service only where B747s or A380s operate!

And even at an aerodrome with ATC, that's what 'your discretion' means. You decide whether it's a good idea to proceed.

[Dysonsphere]

I think Lasham comes close they have b727,b737 and DC8 movements on an A/G ATC

[Zombie146]

Can you define what "at your discretion" means, is the controller controling or just observing (talking APP) :bored:

[Chilli Monster]

In an APP environment it's normally only used in respect of descent i.e "descend to altitude 3000ft, any further at your own discretion". Quite simply it means "I can descend you down to the MSA, but no further. Any further is up to you".

[Spitoon]

on an A/G ATCNow there's an oxymoron!