Strange trial lessons

[ORBITAL]

Whats peoples thoughts on trial lessons and the lack of lack of knowledge of the person having one ie anyone can walk up to a flying club and have one with not too many questions asked ?
Has anyone had any strange experiences ?

[Kanu]

I've had a couple in which I've thought that this person knows too much, or was asking all the wrong questions.

[hotcloud]

Until recently I had very few trial lessons as I had quite a few students on the go. However many of my students have past thier skills test in the last few weeks and I now taking up a few trial lessons. One did stand out a couple of weeks ago. The gentleman in question was from the middle east and was very polite. He kept calling me sir and was very interested and asked lots of questions. As I taxiied out I ask if he had been in a light aircraft before, he told me that he has never flown in his life. I was rather suprised as he had a foreign accent and did not sound as if he was brought up in the UK. He said that he lived in longsight (Manchester). At this stage I thought am I over reacting and then tried to obtain a balanced perspective. once airbourne I pointed out Bolton (Bolton is near Manchester and I would have thought quite well known within the area), my student said that he has never heard of Bolton, also whilst in the air he was very keen to take control. Once on the ground my student thanked me for the flight, again being very polite. I reflected on the situation, again trying to get matters into perspective. I considered the following:-

If he was a threat, surely he would have been more covert and extract information in a more subtle way

Had terrorissm been less of a high profile would I have worried about the flight? I suspect not, and therefore would have considered my student to be very excited and keen.

It really is such a hard judgement call, don't want to over react, but on the other hand don't wish to turn a blind eye.

On balance I thought the student had done nothing wrong and therefore took no action. Be interested to know the views of my fellow flying instructors.

[rjay259]

i think until we are all trained in personality profiling then we will have to take all of our concerns however small to the police. But then we could be going to the police far to much to actually go flying.
There is so much information on the WWW that would they have really needed to go on a trial flight, flight sims are also very good nowdays.

Most of us probably do but next time ask what is the reason for having a trial flight, who had suggested the trial flight, have they looked at any other schools, do they live near other airfields that they could have gone to.

All legit questions that I always ask, especially when the Labour party comes to town for there confrence.

As always we will have to be vigilant.

Be safe

259:cool:

[Polarhero]

I don't know if it helps but a few weeks ago the school i teach at and all the others on the airfield had visits from Special Branch.
Apparently it was because they are starting to take a bit more interest in general aviation.
They wanted to know if we had hap any strange students or odd trial lessons, as well as a list of all students.

Nothing was to sinister in the question's, but they did say that if we had anyone we felt uneasy about to give her a call. She did say she would rather have lots of false alarms than to miss someone of interest.

So might be worth thinking about.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Oh for God's sake.

Most devout muslims tend to be very polite, nothing suspiscious there. I wish there were more people like that around.

As for telling Special branch about it all...............
Nice bit of racial profiling from an unqualified bunch. Good idea.:yuk:

The last thing any of us need is to have is special branch poking about unnecessarily. Our local special branch took an interest, but they had no idea what they were doing, or even how to interpret the Terrorism Act. They tried to impose restrictions on us, so obviously we kicked up a huge fuss.

Strangely enough they have also tried to "do" the boss, as they accused him of breaking the 12hr rule when travelling to N.I. This despite the fact he'd rung and spoken to them and was told it was ok. (We'd been waiting a week due to weather and had to keep changing the times.)
He was then told that the reason he was dragged in an interviewed was because the paperwork was "messy."

You couldn't make this up. I have lost all faith in them, as they plainly have no idea what they are doing, if you can't even interpret the act ccorrectly, what hope do we have!

Keep them at arms length, they aren't interested in helping GA, in fact they want to restrict it if possible. Don't give them an excuse!

[effortless]

I have worked with and indeed lived with many middle eastern young men over the last thirty years. Almost without exception they wanted to get a flip. I assumed that this was not something that was available in Jordan or Iraq. Pilots are absolute heros over there and it is natural that these invariably polite and curious young people would take the first opportunity to get up. When I think of some of the questions you young oiks came up with and the "highly suspicious" curiosity you showed when we took you for air experience. Oh well times are different I suppose.

[rjay259]

Goodness me,

sorry didnt realise we had touched on such a raw nerve S.A.S.

Why is it you feel the need to say "devout muslim"?

Until your message it hadnt been said. Why bring religion into it?

I agree in general all "Middle Eastern" persons are very polite and friendly and some of the nicest people I have had the pleasure to meet and take flying.

It is comments like yours that start any sort of hatred and animosity towards those people who are in those religons.

Have you had a bad experience with special branch?
They are only people doing a very difficult job and I think we should give them a bit of help to make them see that they dont need to shut down GA as they have eyes and ears helping them.

There are always going to be those who are just that little bit to calm and collect who only want to know a couple of things and arent to interested in some other important aspects of flying that really they should be.

S.A.S get off your high horse and join us back here in reality.

Just keep flying.

259:cool:

[2close]

Personally, if I felt strongly enough to warrant my taking any action (and it would have to be a damn sight more more than me just having a bad feeling) I would not involve local plod but would be far more inclined to report the matter directly to the security services.

They are the experts with the resources to investigate and if necessary take the appropriate action plus they are not as answerable to some jumped up civil servant who is clammering for statistics. If they feel that any action is required you can rest assured it would be taken without you having to suffer the hassle of having your every action and GAR Form scrutinised under a high-powered microscope.

There are a lot more threats to national security than high profile Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. We all seem to forget the drug and people traffickers which are far more likely to involve GA.

There are 22 blokes that need investigating at the moment for obtaining property by deception, in that they are receiving vast sums of money under the pretence that they are professional footballers!!! What a boring game!!

[VFE]

Getting back on track....

Strangest trial lesson I have taken up was a tee-total, non-smoking pub landlord. Far more weird than an excited Arab!

Oh, and then there was the 30 year old girlie type girl (you know the sort) with a rich Turkish daddy who, after just one trial lesson, managed to hoodwink daddy into buying her a PPL and light aircraft. The best part of the story is that she wasn't even at the controls for the TL! She sat in the back with her feet curled up underneath her, begging to be flown over her house for the ninth time, whilst her non-english speaking daddy struggled to get to grips with Ex.4 of the JAR PPL syllabus. A bizzare arrangement to say the least.

VFE.

[Say again s l o w l y]

rjay,

I will treat your comments with the contempt that they deserve in respect to my attitude to people of any religion. I treat all as I find. Devotion doesn't change anything.

Have I had a bad experience with S.B, Yep. I have seen first hand unprofessionalism that I have yet to see paralled.

I was the first to welcome S.B to our club and to try and get a working relationship with them. In fact the original team were excellent.
Proper old school coppers, who knew exactly what was going on and cultured a superb relationship with us.
They moved on and were replaced by a team who actually sent us letters and faxes telling us we had to give 24 (??) hrs notice if we wanted to fly to any of the Highlands & Islands airfields.........

Strangley enough a number of us queried this. They backed off rapidly when I faxed a copy of the Terrorism Act 2000 to them and told them which sections to read.

We also had a number of muslim students stopped each and every time they went through any international airport. They were held on average for 8 hours a time. Two of them were stopped 3 times within a couple of months.

They all used to travel regularily with no problems until we gave S.B access to our records. Immediately they were targeted. No one else was though.

I understand the problem of terrorism and it is a hard job that S.B do. But I won't be party to any hounding of innocent people simply because of the colour of the skin or the religion they chose to follow.

So be aware of the consequences.

Anyway, I have had numerous nutcases on Trial Lessons from people trying to get out at 2000 ft to others pouring their heart out and telling you the most intimate details of their lives, despite the fact I only met them 30 minutes before!

[Threethirteen]

I once briefed an old guy (that I was sure was on the verge of senility) for about half an hour on the basic principles of flight only to find out ten minutes into the lesson that he had about 2000 hrs on Lancasters.

One other chap that wheeled himself through the door of the flying club in a Chair turned out to be an Emirates 777 Captain that had been disabled in a Car accident.

All present Instructors practice the phrase: "Hi. My name is .... Have you ever flown an Aircraft before?"

[Kaptain Kremen]

Had a trial lesson customer, she was about 21 yrs old and rather giggly which i put down to nerves. During the ground brief she didn't seem to pay much attention and wanted to know if we could take the red plane rather than the blue as it was her favourite colour etc etc....just a bit...eccentric all round. Then she announced that she wouldn't go unless her toy Bagpus cat could sit up front with her"...er, ok, sure".
once airborne she talked constantly to the toy, repeating my words of wisdom on how to fly the aircraft to the toy and then having a go herself.
Ok, so not too amazing, but..SHE WAS BRILLIANT AT IT! By far the most naturally talented first timer i'd ever seen! Even managed a sensible landing.
After landing she told me that bagpus didn't like it too much and that she wouldn't be back. Shame...could've been a future BA Captain.

Also had another who didn't realise until i climbed aboard after strapping her in that, in fact, I would be coming too! Must revise my preflight brief...

[fireflybob]

How about this one? The local radio station rang me up to say they were doing some "research" - had I done a trial lesson several years ago on a particular date with a certain person? Got the logbook out and yes I had. Did I recall anything about the flight etc. Yes I did - after landing I asked him whether he had done any flying before since had flown so well - a natural pilot. He said that he had never been airborne before and this was definitely his first flight. I was stunned since he had almost flown the whole flight unassisted!

The guy from the radio station then told me they were doing a programme on regressive hypnosis where they put you under and take you back to a previous life. My trial lesson had been a fighter pilot in World War 2!

[Speed Twelve]

I, too had a trial lesson punter who was surprised when I got in the aircraft with her, as she assumed that she was going off on her own for 1/2 an hour...

Went to take another flying at EDI years ago where our C150 was parked next to an A300B4 freighter. She went straight to the steps up to the Airbus and was not happy when I told her it was in fact the Cessna we were going flying in.

One girl simply wanted to touch a cloud, and was again disappointed when we went IMC and she stuck her hand out of the DV window. She genuinely thought it would feel like cotton wool...

Gave one rather large chap control at 2000' to fly S+L, at which point he went into a blind panic, pulled the control column back to the aft stop and resolutely refused to let go. Interesting UP recovery once I had eventually persuaded him to give me control back.

I used to feel guilty when going on 1 hr trial lessons with people that you instantly got on with and had an hour-long airborne conversation with you at a rate of £100+ per hour!

Like SAS, I have had people go into such an irrational panic that they have tried to get out whilst still 1/2 a mile up.

And the old chestnuts:

"Is this your plane?"
"Do you have a proper job?"
"Is this your hobby?"
"We don't seem to be going very fast."
"Why don't you go and fly bigger planes?" (Normally asked 5 times a day in the weeks following completion of initial IRT and MCC course).

Must enjoy it, though, still instructing after 8 years!

[foxmoth]

"Why don't you go and fly bigger planes?"
I had this one asked by a PPL that I was doing a type conversion with, he was a bit red faced when I told him my "proper" job was as an Airbus Captain:}

[whitehorse]

I find that having introduced myself I let them talk a little about themselves, and try to find out what they want to get out of the flight.
Including where they live (they might want to see their house from the air), have they flown in a light aircraft before, what their interests are (one elderly man was a keen gardener and I was able to show him a private estate with all the bushes in bloom). I then give a quick potted history of my flying experience. It only takes a couple of minutes and then I modify my brief accordingly. It saves a red face at the end of the day.

[HonAlgyLacey]

Had a trial lesson once for a half hour flight - young mother came in with two young children and a baby, had the flight bought for her by her husband.
During the briefing she did not ask many questions but wanted to be assured it was safe.
Once flying she proved to be the most responsive student I have ever flown. She would easily fly and hold attitudes, so much so that I let her take the aircraft right down and apart from the roundout she flew the whole landing rather well.
You just told her to fly "3 fingers of gap between cowling and horizon" etc and she did it - perfectly!
I have students at 15 hours that still cannot do this!

[xrayalpha]

Hi all,

I've thought long and hard about answering this, but have decided to do so since - although the comments are now mainly the funny times we have had - there is a serious side.

My pal in the states, Todd Huvard, ended up having to explain why Pan Am Flight Academy had trained 9/11 pilots. I once had to explain to the police why I had helped a burglar get away from the downstairs flat he had burgled!

I can tell you, from my experience, it is far less embarassing to have a quiet word with someone before the event than have to explain afterwards. The stupedest feeling you will ever have is when you say: I thought there was something strange, but.....

Now, to flying.

Special Branch did make a muck of things in Scotland with the new folks ideas on flights to the islands. But, the guys we deal with, as they explain, are just foot soldiers, not James Bond. They do what they are told by their bosses.

An example: I got asked if I had any students called: Mohammed 1, Mohammed 2, Mohammed 3 (you get the idea) and I replied: hang on, I have no arabic students or students with non-European names. No need to give me a list if that's the sort of names you are asking about.

Why do you want to know, I asked. Don't know, just been given a list of names to check out, was the reply.

Two weeks later - I don't know if it was linked - there was the hand-baggage scare at all the airports.

Another example. A white anglo saxon used our airfield quite a bit. We all wondered how he could afford it and why he chose us (apart from it being a fiver to land a twin!) And why the aircraft spent most of its life parked with us. It was the talk of the club. Could it be drugs?

Well, had a quiet word with the SB guy and never heard anything else. Never saw the chap again either. Maybe we p*****d him off if the plods had a word with him, but I'd hope he'd understand. Better safe than sorry.

And then there was the Sikh chap - with massive turban - who wanted to know if his turban would be a problem with headsets. Then revealed that the plods had called to his house at midnight after he popped into a local field to see what was there and how he could learn. He wasn't upset by the fact that the owner of the airfield had called the plods with his car reg, he was VERY upset that the plods waited until MIDNIGHT three days later!

So, yes, the police can be their own worst enemy. Fortunately, in the UK they are almost human! And that means human error too.

And they need our help. And aviation's image needs our help. How often have you been asked about people doing drug runs in aircraft? Now we have the terrorism threat. And the environment lobby.

We need to do our bit, and be seen to do our bit.

And we need to be allowed to get on with our lives, for that is the system we want to preserve.

But then that is the hard balance to strike. Sometimes we get it wrong.

Perhaps instead of being in a news frenzy about which of the london bombers MI6 knew about and didn't do enough, we should celebrate the fact that - even though under suspicion - the fact that they were left to get on with their (tragic) lives was evidence that we don't live in a completely police state. Now there's a controversial thought.

Best wishes and safe flying.

[Chukkablade]

Okay, I'll bite. Even though this has to be a wind up.

'Another example. A white anglo saxon used our airfield quite a bit. We all wondered how he could afford it and why he chose us (apart from it being a fiver to land a twin!) And why the aircraft spent most of its life parked with us. It was the talk of the club. Could it be drugs?'

So just because some guy is a little rough around the edges and Anglo Saxon in heritage, you think he's automatically a drug dealer because he's running a twin? Xrayalpha, are you for real here?

Your shooting down racial stereotyping elsewhere in your post, but obviously if your white that doesn't matter, different rules must apply. Open season to speculate with the other fishwives in the club is it?

Newsflash Xrayalpha, I have friends and relatives whom I have no doubt you would judge to be a little 'rough', and based on your statement, would no doubt have you and your flying club friends up there in Strathaven's tongues wagging till they fell off.

Trouble is though, rough or not, they could buy and sell you and not feel the pinch, and no, they are not dealing drugs to finance their wealth.

Must be a right friendly club attitude you have there to others if you look as if you work with your hands (as in actually make something, a real, genuine productive member of society. Not just shuffling paper as an 'Excellence Cluster Co-Ordinator' for the local council or some such) and perhaps a less than polished accent.

Poor show mate, poor show:(

[corsair]

At my airfield there was a rough round the edges chap with his own aeroplane who people thought might be a drug dealer. Turned out he was a drug dealer. Sometimes the stereotype is true. I remember another guy turning up for a trial lesson with two bimbos in tow. He not only looked like a drug dealer he was one, sadly :rolleyes: now dead by lead poisoning.
I knew one Arab student who cut down on the hassle he experienced by simply investing in a 'pilot's' shirt complete with stripes. Made a big difference :)
As for trial flight weirdness, fingers crossed, nothing much so far. I've had a few who flew so well that I wondered if they were already pilots. But when I flew with my sister, she was so good I tried to encourage her to start training. She went away wondering what all this fuss is about flying a 'plane'. 'It's easy':ugh:
The worst one was a guy who kept asking questions about crashing and how safe it was. When we go airborne, he went white and sat rigidly with his hands grasping the seat. I got the message and landed rapidly, all the time trying to maintain a positive upbeat commentary. However, I was terrified he might grab at the yoke on finals, when he saw the ground rising up as he might see it.

[Say again s l o w l y]

We had a member at a certain airfield down south that no longer exists, who used to come in and hire an a/c every couple of weeks on a Saturday.

He seemed a nice chap who kept himself to himself. It turned out that he was flying a couple of miles off shore and scouting for customs and police so that the drug boats could hit the beach without interference......!

That was only part of it though, he ended up being done for murder after the Essex Range Rover murders.:eek::eek:

[ERIK C]

I did a trial lesson with a blind person in his fourties - he lost his sight at the age of six - and of course once at altitude I handed over the controls to him. I described him what the plane was doing: climbing, descending and angle of bank. We ended up in a spiral descend each time and we both enjoyed it. :p Then we flew to the river Thames and the QE2 bridge and the whole flight I described to him where we were and what I saw.
I also did a trial flight with a very heavy person to say the least, we had to do it in an Archer (4-seater) iso a Cherokee (2-seater really). I had a hard time reaching the trim (in between the two seats) because his belley was all over the cockpit.:yuk:
It is a shame so little catwalkmodels find their way to our flying club for a trial lesson:O

[xrayalpha]

Chukkablade,

Nothing is a wind-up. And neither did I mention about a chap being "rough around the edges".

I have not put all the details down about this chap since, as far as I know, he is perfectly innocent - and so why would I want to identify him publicly.

But I did work as a journalist (scum, scum I hear you cry!!!) and met a wide range of folk and developed a little instinct about when things might not be quite as they seem, so when it might be worth asking a few questions.

I say again, when you have a suspicion, it is worth mentioning it to someone - perhaps even just a family member at first. Then think about what they say, perhaps then ask a pal if you are still uncertain. Then maybe give the chaps/chapesses in Special Branch a quick call.

That's how the system works all across the country.

The government is planning to ban most of the effective cold remedies because some substance in them can be refined into crystal meth. At the moment, they rely on suppliers tipping them off when people who are not pharmacists place large orders.

Similar things happen when people who live in city centres order large amounts of fertiliser.

Or in one fraud investigation I was involved in, where unrealistically large quantities of meat were being offered in the UK at unrealistically low prices over a long period (an EU subsidy fraud involving meat that was meant to have been exported to Lebanon - as you can imagine, few EU oficials wanted to go to lebanon in the 1990s to check containers!) That started from a tip-off from people in the meat trade.

So, if criminals are using aircraft for criminal purposes (rather than for fun or legitimate work as the rest of us do) then it is people in aviation who are likely to be the first to know.

And I think we have a public duty to help the police (which also allows criticism too because that can help improve their effectiveness)

[bolkow]

I'd watch out for the ones who only want to be shown how to take off and show no interest in learning how to land! LOL

[S-Works]

Hmmmmmm, 1984 the police state. Lets all become little informants.

Drone this in a single brain cell monotone - It is for the safety of us all........

[Chukkablade]

Quote: 'Nothing is a wind-up. And neither did I mention about a chap being "rough around the edges".

I have not put all the details down about this chap since, as far as I know, he is perfectly innocent - and so why would I want to identify him publicly.'

Right then Xrayalpha; no, I mentioned the rough around the edges part - it was my way of being polite after you slated the guy because you 'wondered how he could afford it.

In your next breath, you show us all how decent you are by not putting 'all his details down'. How wonderfully lovely of you - especially since you then state he is actually perfectly innocent, SO WHY THE BLOODY HELL WOULD YOU??

So because he is (in your opinion obviously) hailing from a lower socio economic group, you automatically jumped to the conclusion he is into the drug scene. Information you then later state that you are happy to take to special branch if you feel fit - after all, as a journo you are 'attuned' to such things.

What absolutely sanctamonious, self opinionated bull**** you are spouting here. Instincts? Harping Fishwife more like. All your train of thought based on the guys appearance and no doubt less than polished accent - because after all, if you look scruffy but talk in upper class tones, why, your just eccentric. Only if your accent is a little broader than the middle class norm are you liable for unfounded speculation and downright slander amongst the rest of the flying club - oh, and lets not forget reporting to the special branch. Unreal. The friendly face of G.A. right enough there. No wonder its in trouble in the U.K. with attitudes like that.

You just couldn't make this up. Read '1984' a few to many times while at Uni did we?

I actually have a very good friend whose brother in law is looking to learn to fly, and as we dont live so far from you Xrayalpha, maybe we will drop in. I'm sure his accent and his somewhat older car will fill you full of dread. The hotline will be practically ringing to the S.B. because if you ask him how he will afford it, he'll just smile and ignore the question.

However, the fact that he runs an old car as a day to day is to stop his lovely 120k Merc getting dinged about, and dont even start me on how reluctant he is to take the Ferrari out at peak times.

Did I mention he sold his business a few months ago for 25 Million? Oh, must have forgot. Doubt you and your mates would have heard me anywhere up tere on your high horse.

We dont all divulge who and what we are, nor give broad outlines on our financial situations to people we consider strangers, Xrayalpha, and these days, wealth is not confined to those from a traditional Middle Class background. In fact, those are the types more likely to be hurting finacially, as their traditional revenue streams did not move with the times. Lots of ordinary folk have made good in the meantime.

Books/Covers=Assuptions. And we all know how in the flying game how easy it is to end up with egg on your face if thats your modus operandi, we should check, and never assume, after all. Agreed?

Try that, see how it goes.:rolleyes:

[S-Works]

chukablade..... :ok:

[psyan]

"Lets all become little informants." Say's Bose-X.

I have heard in another place, that you certainly do practise what you preach.

Best Wishes

[Johe02]

I had a one guy whose (thoughtful) wife had bought him a surprise trial lesson. Only problem was he suffered from SEVERE vertigo! He was nearly sick just thinking about it but because it was in a heli I told him I would only go as high as he said. . . Turned out not a touch of vertigo and he absolutely loved it!
His wife didn't seem to share the joy. . . strange?

Another very large guy froze on the controls just as we were lifting. . As the a/c was rolling slowly around the left skid . . "OK I have control. . . I have control. . I have. . . LET GO!!!!!"

Won't do that again. . :rolleyes:

[Felix Saddler]

On my first ever trial lesson i managed to taxi, takeoff, climb, trim for level flight, (albeit nearly level took a while!) perform climbing and descending turns, joined circuit on base, managed approach and landing!! (Bounced during flare tho as i was too fast and wasn't expecting it to feel like it did) Instructor showed at lot of faith in me and i was very grateful for that, i taxied her in and shut her down! All in all a very welcoming introduction to what i want to do most. (I'm not trying to show off I'm just being honest)

Regards,

Felix Saddler.

[lady in red]

One woman I took up for a surprise birthday present was so scared she closed her eyes tight and only once airborne said "can I open my eyes now"?
Another time I took a bloke up who looked very sheepish and embarrassed when he saw his instructor was female - he asked if I was qualified to do the flight so I pointed out to him that I had trained all the other instructors - he was fine after that...

[WrongWayCorrigan]

Just renewing my FAA CFI rating and interested to see that the authorities have imposed definite obligations on flight instructors when training "aliens", namely verifying their registration, immigration and security status. Seems a lot of responsibility. And a trial flight is a training flight to me, we do EOC 1.

I do quite a lot of these so-called TIFs (not in USA but elsewhere) and recently had one which I wasn't sure about. I wouldn't go as far as calling the cops but I think we need to take precautions (I checked his ID card, which I've never done before, and in hindsight I can't see how that would help, and made him leave his bag in a locker) but he was a big bloke. Turned out to be charming and, I'm sure, harmless.

Had another once turn up who was completely plastered. We didn't go flying.

[anito4a]

One girl simply wanted to touch a cloud, and was again disappointed when we went IMC and she stuck her hand out of the DV window. She genuinely thought it would feel like cotton wool...

LOL! hahaha ... now, that's cute. :ok: