NJE Suspend Another Captain

[Smeagel]

Two captains flying together. One signs the paperwork, the other does the walk round. Unfortunately the second captain overlooks a staic port cover which becomes detached after take-off and is ingested.

Both are called to Lisbon for tea and biccies without the tea. Or biccies. The captain who signed the paperwork is told that he is responsible. He disagrees on the basis that his co-captain could surely be trusted.

His reward for refusing to bend over and take it nicely? Still suspended after two months.

Blame culture anyone?

[aviatn]

Why do we do walkarounds and how accurate must they be??? How many incidents happen annually due to poorly performed walk arounds?
Two Captains have what sort of experience??

[FlyMD]

So what this would mean, if the story is accurate, is that the PIC (the one signing the paper) would ALWAYS have to do the walk around, because he could NEVER trust someone else, now matter how qualified, to do a an outside check....

bit strange, no?

[south coast]

I am not the designated captain, but we both have P1 ratings on the plane and are both entitled to do the prefilght.

When I do the walk around I sign the book.

Not that insentive is needed, but I make sure I do a good and proper walk around as it is my name.

[Flintstone]

.....(the one signing the paper) would ALWAYS have to do the walk around, because he could NEVER trust someone else, now matter how qualified, to do a an outside check....

And double check everything the other pilot does? This would seem to be the only way to avoid being blamed for anyhting that goes wrong. Not terribly practical when you are on reduced shows and turnarounds but if that's the way the company wants you all to work...................

[Smeagel's Mum]

Oh dear has my son stirred up trouble?

I get confused between the terms "disciplinary" and "investigative". I always thought they meant different things.

Investigative hearings would mean that a cause might be found and thus preventative measures taken. Apparently, this was the 3rd static port cover to go hurtling through the wonderful t'fan.

First that any one heard about it was after the final one. A bit late? :ugh:

Why do these things happen? Day 1. Very early show. Not a lot of sleep because they were only notified 11 hours before the show. Rain and strong wind making it a tad inhospitable to be outside. Very important pax. Aircraft arrived very late that night so difficult to get cleaned. Dispatched to an aeropdrome that wasn't going to be open so the crew had to negotiate that etc. etc.

We know what happened. It would be beneficial to all to know why it happened so all can learn. "Pilot error" whilst factually correct doesn't actually teach us any thing.

Any way, I hope the captain is returned to service promptly if he hasn't been already.

[austrian71]

I am very careful concerning comments to incidents like that,because each of us is sitting in a glas house and should be careful with throwing stones, but what I know from my own experience, its easier to fly with an F/O than with a cpt, what I want to say, two captains can be more critical than the standart cpt/fo mix, therefore : Can anybody tell me, why so many times there are 2 captains in nje? thanks.

[Flintstone]

austrian

I don't see anyone throwing stones. If anything the trend seems to be 'there but for the grace of God go I'.

The crew involved have my sympathy. I know one of them personally and he is a complete professional. I am assured by ex-colleagues that the other is also a captain with whom anyone would be more than happy to fly.

As Smeagel's Mum says it is a shame that certain people seem not to know the difference between 'investigatory' and 'disciplinary'. In my experience such conversations should be recorded. In fact, I think they sometimes are:E

[CREAMER]

My spin on this is as follows.....................

At the start of each tour I now tell my First Officers that after a walk round the other guy should do another walk round anyway regardless of who signs for it. Its amazing what you find sometimes..I make a point of saying that I won't be offended if the guy double checks..some cultures have a bit of a problem with it:ugh: .....Good luck..

[redsnail]

To answer Austrian's question.

NJE try to have more captains than FOs as a matter of course on the roster.
If an FO goes sick, s/he can be substituted by an FO or by a captain. If the captain goes sick, s/he can only be replaced by a captain.

[EatMyShorts!]

My recipee:

1.) If my F/O does the pre-flight check (which is included in the post-flight check in a turn-around!) then he/she will sign the respective column in the Flight Log! It is their responsibility to fulfill their task accurately.

2.) The PNF makes, before closing the main-door before startup, a quick walk-around the aircraft in order to have a look for all hatches, locks, doors, covers and chocks.

This way I did not have any problem, so far *knocking on wood*

[scambuster]

I don't think he was suspended by the company at all. I believe he grounded himself due to emotional trauma whilst the investigation was completed.:D

[Smeagel]

In fact he asked for a few days off after the severe grilling* and 'sympathetic' interrogation that Lisbon dished out in their usual fashion. How dare he? Who does he think he is?

He got his days off but in retaliation the company have left him grounded. Calls to the so-called Human Resources department go unanswered and the poor guy is in limbo.





*Gotta love those ex-third world air force jocks eh? Great at shooting up natives in their old african colonies but know sweet FA about man management and earning as opposed to demanding respect.:rolleyes:

[south coast]

Smeagal, you are funny!

Agree with it or not, the little anicdote at the bottom is funny!

[scambuster]

:D smeagel, yep! too true!

[austrian71]

Flintstone
In fact nobody throws stones, did I write that anybody does?
Redsnail
Appreciate your answer, understood, many thanks!

[gone till november]

Smeagal

As usual your talking out of your jet pipe.

Try speaking to the pilots involved, get the facts and then you may apologise for your last comments.

Another pint mon amis?????:}

[Scroll Lock]

I know the Captain involved quite well and personally too.
Found it hard to believe the mistake that was made, as he is nothing but ultra professional.
Can only sympathise with the shodding arse f***ing by scheduling and the crap lazy attitude of the outgoing crew by not having the aircraft serviced upon arrival.
This is happening more and more as crews rush to get home.
Unacceptable, with NO exceptions.

Rant over.

[redsnail]

Scroll lock,
Do you know what time that aircraft arrived? Do you know what day the previous crew had? I most certainly do. I can tell you right now that there was no way the aircraft could have been cleaned and serviced after midnight when we arrived after a 6.9 hour block flight and a 3.1 block flight immediately before it.

That aircraft hadn't been near a restock location for some time. It was in Nice for a little while but we all know what Nice can be like.

I wasn't aware of the juice spill in the drawer as I was outside in the weather getting the covers on.

Were we told when the aircraft was departing? No. If I had have known when it was going I most definitely would have taken the time to go over it a lot more carefully. Even a quick note on the BB would have made the difference.

Some crew are a bit lazy I won't deny, but to slag them off here when you don't have all the facts is just not acceptable IMHO. We had arranged for the cleaning and the stocking etc to be done in the morning. I don't think I am one of the more lazier crew around.

[winkle]

still have'nt had the phone call asking me to come back, oh well maybe tomorrow.
:)

[redsnail]

Training captains are welcome back. :E

[Smeagel]

Smeagal
As usual your talking out of your jet pipe.
Try speaking to the pilots involved, get the facts and then you may apologise for your last comments.
Another pint mon amis?????

What makes you think I have not spoken to those concerned? Or even those in Lisbon? You haven't a clue, have you?

If I am SO wrong why don't you enlighten me? Let us hear the 'official' Lisbon version then. I could do with a laugh.


austrian71. I did not say you were stone throwing. Your comment "each of us is sitting in a glas house and should be careful with throwing stones" implied that you thought that some people were. I merely pointed out that they were not.

[gone till november]

What makes you think I have not spoken to those concerned? Or even those in Lisbon? You haven't a clue, have you?
Smeagal

I have spoken to both involved and flew with one of them post the event so i suppose that qualifies me to call you a liar. Keep your beak out of what you dont know and stop stirring the ****. We all know why you no longer work for NJE so go and find another ring for you to stick your finger in and smell what gives. :cool:

Both the guys involved have learnt from their mistakes and want to get on with their careers.......can you say the same for yourself!:ok:

Awaiting another of your devil may give a **** answers that really shows the child in you off quite clearly.

Language Doris! There's women & children here! Cool it before that vein on your forehead explodes. Carry on; slow ahead both. 4HP

[Smeagel]

Warning duly noted 4HP. On my best behaviour:O

I have spoken to both involved and flew with one of them post the event so i suppose that qualifies me to call you a liar So for me to be a liar you would have to be the only person to have spoken to them or anyone in Lisbon? Neat trick!!! How did you prevent them all from talking? Rohypnol?

Lisbon leaks like a bloody sieve and most of the old guard there could not keep a secret if their very lives depended upon it. Some of the people you revere are fighting to retain their little corners in the belief that their old military rank entitles them to their position for life irrespective of their blatant inability to lead or manage. Sadly their limited capabilities, dubious from the outset, are just not up to the current day task. If you haven't twigged that yet they really have snowballed you.

Let's face it november. You're a newb to Netjets and grateful to be there whereas some of us have a far deeper and extensive knowledge of the company that has granted you sanctuary. I'll bet you believe those emails from London and Lisbon. "We've made a profit. Well done everyone. Well done. By the way you're not getting a bean". Sound familiar? Of course it does, you just won't admit it yet. Perhaps even to yourself but sooner or later the truth will dawn. Noticed how some of the previous defenders of NJE no longer stand up for them? Hmmm? Yep, they've seen the light.

Me? I'm laughing like a drain at the continued antics of your saviour company, thankfully from the outside. It just pains me to see them abusing some very good people in the process.

I have spoken to both involved and flew with one of them post the eventWell you could hardly have flown with the other one, could you? The poor guy is still sitting on the ground because he dared to not roll over and take his kicking from Lisbon.

We all know why you no longer work for NJE Yep. Found a much better deal. Where's the secret in that?

[gone till november]

4HP......sorry! rightful spanking duly noted.

Now back to the thread poo stirrer.:ugh:

As usual smeaggy you are wrong and late with your hatred and vittriol.

Both captains are now flying and as said before they just want to get on with their careers and have learnt from their mistakes......can you honestly say you have?

If you think over a year is new then yes i am and yes i do love my job and spend my time being happy and positive. Nothing worse than spending 6 days with someone like you so i thank you for getting yourself sacked so i dont have to fly with a bore.

Netjet pilots are a capabale bunch of guys and gals and WE do a great job getting it around. I fly with good guys and at least the company is trying to make the deal better. Im sure when you get sacked from your present company (again) that you will slag them and NJE off as well.

I dont want a nobody like you making out what i do for a living as a sham. You insult me and other hard working guys with your inaccurate and inane hate filled comments.

Now i dont know if your parents didnt like you or give you the attention you craved. But you really need to get over what ever it is buzzing around in your head or up your wazoo and move on. NJE has and your not missed.

The poor guy is still sitting on the ground because he dared to not roll over and take his kicking from Lisbon.

Again not true. As i said i have spoken to said pilot and your talking from your 'arris.

Yep. Found a much better deal. Where's the secret in that?
If thats true then why are you so interested in the past. Move on its really becoming boreing.

whereas some of us have a far deeper and extensive knowledge of the company that has granted you sanctuary

What a sanctimonoius little turd you are and note it should be "some of us HAD a far deeper" etc etc. As you say you've moved on, well so has NJE.

Now you can try and get personal with me but your knadgers just arent big enough so quit while you THINK your ahead.:=

I am really bored now so im off for a pint.

[redsnail]

GTN,

One captain was released back to flying ages ago.

The other, today.

[Smeagel]

some random guesses
I love it when people go fishing. Last time someone claimed to know who I am I was supposed to be the ex-COO. Then I was the Commercial Director. Now I'm.....well, I'm not quite sure but it all sounds jolly interesting.


Both pilots are NOW flying. One was not when I posted. So how was I wrong? I'm glad both have been reinstated, that is as it should have been long ago. The point was and still is that as before management immediately went looking for someone to blame. Answer this for me would you? A straightforward one word answer. Yes or no. Do you agree that the pilots concerned should have been removed from flying duties for as long as they were? Yes or no?


As for getting personal........As usual your talking out of your jet pipe.................go and find another ring for you to stick your finger in and smell what gives............your devil may give a **** answers that really shows the child in you off quite clearly...........What a sanctimonoius little turd you are............a nobody like you ........Nothing worse than spending 6 days with someone like you .....
I'm getting personal and acting childish? Would you like a Band-Aid for that smoking hole in your foot?

[gone till november]

Smeagal

A reasoned response for which a reasoned answer shall be given.

One was not when I posted. So how was I wrong?

He started flying the DAY you posted. Your contacts were obviously not up to speed on this one. I just used some of your tactics to stir it up a bit.

Yes i agree that they should have been grounded pending an investigation.

No i dont agree with how long one of them was suspended for.

management immediately went looking for someone to blame

What did you expect them to do, of course they wanted some one to blame a £1.5m was just buggered. The method it was done maybe up for debate but not the levels of mis-information you have provided.

As i have said before the guys have learnt from this incident and so should we and just leave them to get on with the daiy grind. Both are good lads and its wrong to smear their reputations in this manner as they're not managers or those types that put themselves in the limelight and deserve scrutiny.

As for getting personal i can and will apologise (except the sanctimonious little turd comment) and dont mind if you do or dont as sometimes you have to fight fire with fire and i understand that:p

I know your not the ex COO etc etc so safe flying old bean

[Smeagel]

Oh dear.

I originally posted on the 13th. Pilot reinstated a couple of days later. No, I'm not claiming the credit.

management immediately went looking for someone to blame
What did you expect them to do, of course they wanted some one to blame a £1.5m (engine?) was just buggered

My point exactly. Blame. Should anyone accidentally damage a NJE aircraft in the future the first thought through their head will be "Can I get away with not reporting this?". Human nature. It happened with the North Africa level bust (before your time) when people clammed up. Is that a safety culture?

As i have said before the guys have learnt from this incidentThey sure have.

Before leaving this I'll just refer back a bit to where you said "You insult me and other hard working guys with your inaccurate and inane hate filled comments." Nowhere have I ever insulted the rank and file. There are some excellent people in the company who avert (commercial) disaster on a daily basis. Sadly they are let down by some of their management and others in Lisbon whose cock-ups are not so visible. Then when the inevitable happens Lisbon go looking for someone to, in your words, blame. The good fleet managers can only protect them (you) so far. Hardly a warm and fuzzy feeling is it?

Glad both are now back to work.

[gone till november]

Sadly they are let down by some of their management and others in Lisbon whose cock-ups are not so visible.

Thats Aviation, infact thats every company that I and everybody i know has ever worked for.

There is no utopian job as everything has a caveat attached. My job is just to get on with it while keeping a weary eye on whats going on (despite your assumtions that i dont know whats going on in Lisbon).

Nowhere have I ever insulted the rank and file

No you havent directly insulted the "rank and file" but you do with your constant little snipes about a company that many of us and even the hardened are happy to work for as we live a pretty good life. Note some have moved on and want to come back so the grass is etc etc


Hardly a warm and fuzzy feeling is it?


This was a problem. As time went by people were beginning to ask questions and many chaps thought that the bad old days were back. But that was not the case.

Your hatred of NJE is well noted and even if you think your demise was unfair take it like a man and move onwards and upwards.

As you say im just glad both are working.

[2604]

Smeagel said: "Noticed how some of the previous defenders of NJE no longer stand up for them?"

Not quite right Sir. If your life revolves around "Pee...pee...peepprune", not all of ours do. At least as far as I'm concerned (I wouldn't like to speak for others as I understand you seem to be doing) I'm not "Open all hours" for this site.

I do not post very often but this does not mean, Sir, that I think Netjets stinks. Far from it Sir, far from it. Netjets is the dog's b:mad: :}

Did you understand this message Smeagle? :rolleyes:

gone till november, paranoid people are very difficult to deal with. And not worth the effort if you're not an expert in the field. Take it easy.

LONG LIVE NETJETS!!!:E

[Smeagel]

if you think your demise was unfair take it like a man and move onwards and upwards
There you go again. Try a smaller hook, lighter line and maybe different bait.

As for the blame culture I truly hope you are right. The thing is it existed for so long and in such a virulent form it is going to be some time before everyone believes it. If you had seen so many promises made and broken by the company maybe you would be a tad cynical too.



2604. The company cheer team is no longer what it was, a change evident from around the time the tax and pay were changed.

I'm glad for you that you are happy. Obviously it is better there than you are used to. If things continue to improve it may become a career rather than the stepping stone many see it as in its present form. Some of us decided not to wait and find out.

My life spent on here? Hardly. In fact I'm off sailing for a week or two. No 'net access there. See?

[manligsak]

perhaps im too drunk anf should noot wirete, in any case, i say there r a lot of people with a lot of different nneds and if we just left it at that it would b ok........

[Flintstone]

:O ^^^^^^^ Best post of the entire thread!

Hope the hangover isn't too bad manligsak.

[natops]

agree totally with flinstone, finally sombody who speaks out what he really thinks...

it must be true..:ok:

N.

[redsnail]

I must say that post by manligsak has to be the clearest and most direct post I've ever read. I'm voting him for poster of the year and I think I'll make a suggestion to Lisboa that he writes our Part A & B.

Pure gold. :D

[transilvana]

Manlisgak, you are completely right!!!!! post of the year? yep....

Anyhow, I tried NJE a couple of months ago but was rejected, I´ve reading NJE posts for a long time, since the beggining of the forum and found good and bad things about the company. Let me get the impression first:

NJE has a hughe problem with management, and I mean non pilot positions, probably their Director Plan is not well designed, there are many spots on it. They push pilot management too far away into the limits and that´s not good. You are managing a company and you have to attach to certain rules impossed by the law (training, flight time.....) and let the pilot management positions do their jobs.

On the Pilot management positions get pilots with a good background on leading teams, not just because you were military or have 10.000 hours you are the best, probably a person with a good background on ground management or leading a supermarket with 500 people working on it and having a good university training on bussiness aviation, and leave that person do his job. Leading well a team is more important than fly an ILS by the book.

NJE is a big company now, there are and there will be pilot mistakes, ops mistakes and more, solve them in a straight manner, but do not push people, you will only get bad results and that´s for sure, p.e: I can shoot a VFR app or stick to the full app always and F... the company so I spend more money on fuel and aircraft time.

Anyway, my impression is that when they were a new company mistakes were ok at the beggining, but everything in aviation has already been invented, so don´t try new things, just get the good ones that already work. It´s a great company, just needs a little polishing...

[gone till november]

manligsak

Sorry i disagree.

I was not prepared to stand back and watch a mates reputation destroyed by somebody who's working off second or third hand versions of the truth or more accurately un-truthes.

Sometimes you have to stand up and be counted.

2604

gone till november, paranoid people are very difficult to deal with. And not worth the effort if you're not an expert in the field. Take it easy

Your probably right but read the above and you'll know where im comming from. Note that there was no stress just much enjoyment from putting smeagal in his place.:cool:

Transilvana

It´s a great company, just needs a little polishing

Your absolutely right and i think that they are trying but just have some way to go.

Now maybe its time to put a line under it as the captain involved has and maybe we should all respect that.

Safe flying ya'awl

[Smeagel]

Note that there was no stress just much enjoyment from putting smeagal in his place.

Ohhhhh, that's what you were trying to do. Funny because to me and a few others it looked a lot like you losing your temper.

You need a cruise. Ask nicely and I'll take you with me but be quick as I'm casting off in 3....2....1





Too late.:p

[gone till november]

Smeaggy old chap

Knew your pride would make you fall for it, hook line and sinker. :E

Dont get too close to the Bermuda Triangle we wouldnt want you to disappear too soon now would we:}

Too chilled to care anymore:cool: :cool: :cool: :eek: :cool:

TTFN:zzz:

[Lever]

So you're going sailing are you Smeagel?


Uh huh.

How about - you're going to Geneva for a week at EBACE in your position as a junior PD manager.

Enjoy.

Lever.

[inciter]

As the nominated commander of the aircraft with the paycheck comes responsibility and accountability. Whatever goes wrong during your tour, at the end of the day the buck stops with you.

People make mistakes, that's just how it is. Go to Lisbon for your tea & no bickies session, put your hand up and say "we cocked up how do we learn from this" and move on. By pointing fingers or making excuses all you are doing is digging a deeper hole for yourself.

[Kent BeTrue]

What does the SOP or Ops manual say.

The NJME policy was that the NF pilot was required to do the walkaround and the FP the cockpit setup. There was no requirement for the captain to do both.

How can the Captain of the day be held responsible for the actions of the action required by SOP of another captain.

The Captain responsible for "everything" harks back to the days when the Captain was king and the guy in the right seat just shut up and operated the radio.....no?

My tuppunce worth!
Cheers

[CL300]

Signature is liability....

our Daily log has two spaces one for the preflight one for the acceptance of the flight, the person who does the preflight signs the space and therefore is held accountable for future cock-ups...

Whatever the story after this, the one who sign is responsible; being too nice and signing on behalf does not make any good to anybody.

[inciter]

kent be true

If the commander is not the one responsible for the entire operation why would they pay you 30-40% more than the other guy.

If taking the money and blaming others is your idea of leadership you are in the wrong business my friend.

[austrian71]

inciter

regarding the kent be true posting i think you do not right to him, for my understanding the sense is: Both crewmembers are a professional team and each of them has to trust the other, if we check everything twice we have to create a checklist for the checklist, hope you understand what i am meaning, regards.

[inciter]

Austrian,
I understand exactly what you mean.
After an incident though in front of the review board the captain has to present his case and at the end accept full responsibility.

The board will then review all facts and decide whether the commander was directly responsible or not.

I did my time with NJE and I know for a fact that most of the senior guys in Training and Standards in particular are very fair and down the line.

[Kent BeTrue]

Inciter,

I think as Austrian71 says, you misunderstand me.

The Captain should accept one hundred per cent responsible for the operation of the aircraft and for the operation of the crew. S/He is a manger, possibly being paid 30-40% more than other crew members, although not in this case, and as such must accept responsibility for crew and their actions. However, s/he cannot be held responsible for errors made outside of his / her control.

If the Captain has to assume responsibility for every action on or outside the aircraft, then we are going back to the days where the Captain does everything and the rhs sits there and shuts up. Not ideal.

Interestingly in fact in your next post you support me directly contradicting your response.

"After an incident though in front of the review board the captain has to present his case and at the end accept full responsibility.
The board will then review all facts and decide whether the commander was directly responsible or not."

So does the Captain take FULL responsibility or not?

As for the comment:
"If taking the money and blaming others is your idea of leadership you are in the wrong business my friend."

Never done it, never will, so I will assume that just comes from your handle. :)

Take care and fly safe :ok:

[inciter]

Kent be true,
Based on your last reply you ve missed the whole point I was trying to make.

Responsibility and Blame are two different things.

[austrian71]

Hi ladies and gents,

its a pleasure for me, to inform you, that I got the offer letter from lisbon, I am proud to be a member of nje starting with indoc in july :O

[4HolerPoler]

Congrats - maybe not the right thread but well done & best wishes.

Keep us posted.

4HP

[Kent BeTrue]

Inciter,
Not at all.... Responsibility has a place in aviation... Blame does not.

That was my point.

I think we agree from other sides of the arguement.

Be Safe :ok:

[austrian71]

Sorry , u r right, mixed up the thread, forgive me after my 4th glass of red wine, but it´s worth to celebrate !

[natops]

..........

[CL300]

austrian71 Sorry , u r right, mixed up the thread, forgive me after my 4th glass of red wine, but it´s worth to celebrate !

You are definitely on the good tracks with NJE.... Do not give away your day job... :\

[manligsak]

ahh, dont you worry austrian, cl300 is like that, not all are and thats a fact as i came through and still hang on:8

[CL300]

with the wine ? :E

[bizantin]

Listen son, if you are not even able to post on the right thread because you are already drunk, I am afraid your line training will take a long long time. Drop the glass and think that people outside the company may look into the posts.

Thank you.

[manligsak]

daddy has spoken.............. u better shape up austrian :=

[Scroll Lock]

Grow up bizantin.

Let the chap be happy.

P.s " somewhere only we know"

You like Keane, don't you?

:rolleyes:

[Smeagel]

Grow up bizantin.


That's deeply ironic to those of us who know Scroll Lock.

How's life SL?:ok:

[Metro23]

:ok:

Got a inviting to Netjets in Le Bourget. I'd like to prepare myself. Could anybody tell me a bit about the written test they want me to do?

Thanks in advance

[scambuster]

..........improve your english for a start!

[bizantin]

I have always been honest about NJE. It is good if you need a bit of experience or if you are unemployed or both but not for a long term career. At least for the moment. In the last 5 years, they changed the contract 3times! It is like playing cards with somebody who changes the rules before every draw.
But if you are happy SL, that is fine with me. I am not wishing any bad things to NJE. I just want to inform the newcomers honestly because some of them leave jobs that may offer better perspectives on a long term basis.

biz

[Chippie Chappie]

Scambuster,

A non-english/first language speaker mixes up a noun and it's derived adjective and you become a school mar'm? AND uses the improper pro-noun. How horrendous!

Don't be a tw@t. :hmm:

[natops]

totally agree with Chippie Chappie. Not funny to bullsh.t about a second language.
We, non-native english speakers, try hard and most of the time people really understand us!
The test/interview is about aviation/personality and the ability to express yourself in english, not to be perfect in it.
Maybe it was a joke, in my opinion not funny.
Anyway fly safe!
N.:ok:

[Smeagel]

Listen son, how many times did the contract get changed for the worse?
Well, let's see.
1.Firstly there was the time NJE decided that even though they had employed people on an agreed salary they would cut those salaries, some by a large margin, as their figures weren't working out. Any crew objecting to this were told that their contracts would not be renewed.
2.How about when the company changed the contracted 6/5 work pattern and imposed 18 days a month?
3.Then they decided that airlining on the first and last days wasn't actually duty time.
4.Then there is the more recent imposition of tax and social contributions in Portugal and the UK. Aren't some pilots calculating that unless this changes their tax bill will be 80% of their salary?
Secondly, go to a union represented airline and you will get a change in contract every 24 months, it is called negotiating collective labour agreements. They tend to benefit the majority.
Interesting word there, "negotiating". Perhaps you can tell us how many changes in the terms and conditions, including those I quoted above, have ever been negotiated? To save you the trouble I can tell you. None.
As for benefitting the majority, well let us see. Those on UK contracts are unlikely to complain for now. Those on the Portuguese contracts got screwed when that was negotiated. Sorry, did I say negotiated? I meant forced upon them by the then CEO with the words "take it or leave it". Now we have a third contract for the rest which seriously punishes some people. Why three contracts? Surely if this were negotiation to the advantage of the majority there would be one? But we are forgetting the old principle of divide and rule which NJE employ with fervour.
But you surely have something to undermine my statement Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.
Oh look, you did.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

"Pilot error" whilst factually correct doesn't actually teach us any thing.

Sorry, no. 'Pilot error' is extremely rare (I have only one worthwhile example of this which I use in lectures - can anyone guess what it is?).

Human error, committed by a human who happens to be a pilot, is very common indeed.

It is up to operators, regulators, and designers (though not in that order), to ensure that it doesn't lead to death and destruction.

Could we please try to get the basic stuff right?

[hoggsnortrupert]

Sounds like Zimex, ve vill change your contract anytime ve vant to, ou do not haf to like it, you do not haf to vork here!
Only they issued permanent contracts,but 4 imposed changes in 4 years???
An army marches on its feet, although some say on its stomach:
You choose how you want to march.
I will invest in stout boots, over a tube of K-Y gel everytime.
H/Snort.:ok:

[netjetter]

Smeagel,

You SAY you just come on here to warn people about the nagative aspects of working for NetJets. I don't believe you. Why is it you keep writing about problems we had years ago, under very different leadership and that have for the most part been resolved?

The off-shore contract is history by the end of the year. Because the majority of pilots wanted an on-shore contract. Last time I checked we got more money, not less. Why? Because we demanded it. That paycut you keep talking about was many years ago, when the company was about a fifth of its present size. The vast majority of currently employed NetJets pilots didnt even work here then.

I do agree the situation has not been resolved yet for the Scandinavien and some other groups. If you look at the majority of pilots you will find that the contracts in place suit them well. Of course that doesn't include those that seem to think they have a right to life-long tax-evasion.

6/5? Same deal. The roster pattern had been changed a few years ago by the precious COO. You are right. He did what he wanted and couldn't care less. Current senior management is quite different, though. NO we are back to 6/5. Why? Because they listened. What relevance do your "warnings" have for sokmebody who is intending to join us now?

So, if you want to be taken seriously: How about a bit of a balanced view? I know you keep saying there is enough of us telling the ups so you need to focus on the downs but I believe that is wrong. It just makes you seem so bitter. In fact it is beyound beliefe how much time you spend coming on here and slagging the company off.

I am the first to admit that there still are a number of issues to address: pension, part time etc.

However, I am quite happy here overall and it bothers me if somebody keeps on badmouthing the company using problems from the past, not present.

[Smeagel]

Netjetter, feel free to believe me or not. I'm touched that you are concerned about my being bitter but trust me, I'm fine.

I never tried to say that old problems were just that but I do not believe that your new management is that different from the old. After all they answer to the same people in London and the States who allowed their predecessors free rein. If you think these people care much about you then you are mistaken. There are also still a few of the old guard fighting to keep their positions (which frankly they should never have held in the first place) and the worst offender who everyone celebrated the passing of is still in fact working behind the scenes as a 'consultant'.

I'm sorry but they did not give you the 6/5 because you asked for it. If they are so benign why was this not immediately reinstated the moment the previous COO was gone? Why the two year delay? Because they had to give something when it became clear that crew were resigning. In the busy period crew run out of hours after five days anyway so 'giving' this cost them little if anything.

Why are they still not counting ALL positioning time as duty? This used to be the case but was removed by previous management who are long gone. Enough crew told the HR interviewers this was what they wanted and the company sure as hell know this would be unacceptable if a crew were ramped in most countries yet it continues.

Many people requested adequate pension arrangements, did you get those? Of course not, that would cost money.

In reality they have given you very little and will continue to drip feed concessions as and when they have to. It is even easier to see this from the outside these days, maybe you should try it? After all, as you yourself have said I do seem to have a lot of free time on my hands these days.

Now if you will excuse me it is the weekend, the tide is favourable and the sun is over the yardarm.

[suchiman]

In the 10 years that NJE has existed, there have been 5 managements!!! Each new management that comes, is not interested in puting things right. Doing it would cost tons of money and their bonus would be gone. I imagine that when these managers see how twisted and over complicated the set up is, they just decide to follow along and not make any REAL changes. Maybe if they try they wouln´t be arround too long. Its a bit of a vicious circle that feeds itself. A bit of an avalanche, the further it goes the bigger it gets! We now have 700 pilots and the "avalanche" is reaching monumental proportions. Nobody wants to get in the way. We are hireing pilots very quickly and its getting even bigger!