English Proficiency Test

[CJ750]

I would just like to know why we have to do this test if we have a matric certificate saying we passed english 20 and somewhat years ago. I heard the test charges at some places are in the region of R650.00 for somebody to tell you what you already know. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Contract Dog]

when does this come into effect? do english speaking crew have to do it? my spelling is s:mad: it! i will probably fail:eek: Jokes asside though, when will this be enforced and where do you write? CAA? Was at cranfield last month and they recon that they may end up doing it?

Dog

[Goffel]

Hond.(Hound).:}

Asked the same question at work the other day and was informed that if you have a SA matric, you are exemt from the exam....just have to produce the cirtificate and you are apparently credited.

I do have it on authority that all the guys who chirp on pprune are going to have their spelling checked and that should you have passed the test thu one of the schools, and it is found you are unable to spell, your test shall be found to be null and void.(unless of course you pay in Tassies).

Goffel...(still not sure where I am at).
:E

[Contract Dog]

you think the CAA will sell me a Matric? recon, according to the other posts, I could finish it in 15 min. What you think?

Dog (hond)

[Goffel]

Hound...(Hon'd).

Im busy writing out the new matric exams as we speak..(sorry, type).

Do you mind helping me set the exams...(but dont expect one in return, unless of course you pay for it).

15 mins...hmmmmmmm, bit long would you not say.

I must admit, it is a good laugh for us poor idiots that live here, went to school and now must prove we can speak our mother tongue.

Eisch...:cool:

[MungoP]

Goffel

I do have it on authority that all the guys who chirp on pprune are going to have their spelling checked

exemt

cirtificate

thu

:E

[Witraz]

Have you guys tried E-Bay......probably get a few Matric certificates there for a couple of Rand :E

[Goffel]

Mungo P.

My dear fellow......now that is certainly not the way to rip off a poor invidulator........it genuinely has fearful repocussions as to whether you attain an A or an F...(presently, you have dropped to a G).:=

But alas, all is not lost....Contract Dog, bless his bone, is working on a complete new set of quesies.:D

Goffel..:{

[126,7]

I had to do a test in Europe. Its 50 questions and all are multiple guess. Very easy stuff.

[CJ750]

I sent an e-mail to the CAA rep in the AIC and was told that all present and future pilots will have to do a 40 min English proficiency test , ICAO requirement. This will cost in the region of R650 at C at FALA.

NUTS .......................WHAT NEXT:rolleyes::rolleyes::}:}

[Contract Dog]

It is getting crazy! I have to bump off pax now just to make space for all the paper work we have to carry, ends up costing a fortune! Is passing the CAA exams "IN ENGLISH" not good enough? How can you pass those and not understand english????? I c a lot of thought went into this one. Well done CAA!!!!!!!!:D

Dog

[oerlikon]

does anybody know where the idea originated and who stands to gain from it? somebody must have opened a new bank account to fill with our hard earned money. :*

[madherb]

Reminds me of the old saying "Wunce opon a time I coerren even spel 'enjinear'* and now I are wun"

*(Enjinears please sustitute "pileot" if so desired)

I believe the ICAO date for compliance is March 2008....:sad:

[oerlikon]

True, but is this a world wide trend? It doesn't really help if I know what I'm saying but the ATC in some foreign language speaking country or aircraft doesn't. Years back in Angola the guys were speaking english, portuguese and russian all at the same (probably hasn't changed) so an english proficiency exam wouldn't have been much good anyway.

What about foreign licenced pilots and aircraft coming in to SA? Surely they are more of a problem than guys who went through the system here?

I haven't yet met a pilot starting out who didn't go into some of our neighbouring countries and think the ATC was speaking a different language. Just the accents alone can make the words sound foreign. Maybe we should get elocution lessons too?

And I'm not against the idea of it altogether, its paying the big bucks to be told I'm proficient in my mother tongue that irks me.

In reality it should be incorporated into the General Radio Licence exam. If you don't have the radio licence you can't get the flying licence anyway. :ugh:

[Contract Dog]

Nou praat jy! but I guess if they did that then C would not make R650 times however many of us there are.

[saywhat]

The English language proficiency test is an interview aimed at assessing your standard of English in the aviation context.It is an ICAO requirement for all ATC's and pilots to be assessed before March 2008.The motivation behind the test is to try and reduce the number of accidents/incidents caused by misunderstandings the can occur in RT communication.It is not a written exam but rather a 30 min. verbal interview.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Sounds quite similar to the verbal radio examination which used to form part of the General Radio Licence?
In an effort to attempt to raise South African semantic standards, where does on go to apply for a position as examiner?:p

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Actually, it's a specific South African requirement initiated with relevance only to those whose primary language is English. All those who may claim to have English as a second language will, no doubt, in practice if not in policy, be exempted from the requirement. :ugh:

[oerlikon]

R650 times a couple of thousand is going into the millions. A lot of dough to be made out of chatting to someone for thirty minutes. But it will eliminate a lot of confusion and bring a sense of order to the skies, such as:

Pilot: Aircraft X declaring an emergency.

ATC: Please state the nature of the emergency.

Pilot: We've lost an engine.

ATC: Due to the double meaning of that statement we will not deal with the emergency at this moment. Please attend an english proficiency exam and then get back to us.:ugh:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

In order to avoid such ambiguity the correct phraseology for engine failure will now be changed to something along the following lines?

ATC: Please state the nature....

Pilot: The...engine...is...broken.

That works, does it not?:p

[126,7]

I've heard the following:
Its an ICAO thing and its worldwide. Don't know if all countries will adhere to it though. The test has nothing to do with aviation english. Its purely about understanding english. If you fail the first computer based test, which is multiple guess, you do a verbal interview with an assessor either in person or telephonically. A person proficient in english would be graded as level 6. Level 4 is the minimum required.
Rumour has it that the french have automatically built it into their licensing system so that if you have an ATC or pilot's licence you automatically get a level 4 without any extra tests.

[saywhat]

Cavortingcheetah if you are interested in doing a Rater course the ATNS training academy offers the course.It a week long course that teaches you how to conduct the interview etc....Know it's a bit of a slap in the face for guys who have been talking on the radio for years now with no incident , but I think Icao is just trying to eliminate as many factors from the incident/accident equation as they can.Especially with regard to the international increase in runway incursions.I'm also getting the impression that stop bar lights will be utilised now more on a permanent basis rather than just in bad weather as another preventative measure.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Thank you for that, saywhat. Have contacted the ATNS academy and will await results. The possible problem is that present location is UK but this is not insurmountable depending on the response from ATNS. It was very good of you to provide the information. One wonders if it is or will be an international qualification allowing for a sort of footloose, predatory type of aviation English vetting opportunity?:)

[saywhat]

Hmmm.........knowing human nature , very likely.

[oerlikon]

no doubt cheetah, but there will be a few prerequisites. you will have to display sufficient fluency in English with a variety of accents.

[Quinn]

Than you probably can fly to Paris and talk to ATC in English (but they speak French with own plane crews), you would fly to Madrid and talk to ATC in English (but they speak Spanish with own plane crews), you would fly to Moscow and talk to ATC in English (but they speak Russian with own plane crews)........why all the crews and ATCs in Berlin can speak English?????????
Are CAAs, ICAO going to change enything, hardly believe.

Quinn

[Hantam]

Pilots that can provide a matric certificate with english as first language do not have to do the test. Did mine yesterday.

[LJ45]

Phoned Cranfield to book for the English Proficiency Interview and was told that CAA have changed their minds and if you can produce proof, i.e. a Matric Certificate or higher, with English as your first language then you do not have to take the test. They also said CAA was going to put this in their next AIC publication.

Does anyone know if the CAA passed (or has had) their FAA audit?

[alpha-b]

Hi mates.What's this about english proficiency test?I'm a french speaker by birth and did all my studies in french except my flight training in english.English isn't a big deal i'm both fluent in writing and speaking.I'm a holder of a CPL/IR and ME and 4 my renewal do I need 2 pass an english test?Any info is appreciated

[Anti-Skid Inop]

cavortingcheetah,

I completed the rater course at ATNS about 2 weeks ago. It is an internationally recognised qualification and yes, there is some "moolah" to be made as there aren't many raters around just yet.

The CAA, as mentioned in previous posts, has been giving exemptions to those pilots who can prove at least Matric - english as a first language ( You'll get a Level 6 - never have to be re-tested). For those that have at least Matric - English as a second Language ( You'll get a Level 4 - need to be re-tested in 3 years time)


Hope this helps.

[alpha-b]

It really didn't answer my question tough.What would happen 2 those foreign pilots whom english isn't their language?I'm due 4 my CPL/IR renewal in a couple of months from now.Do I have 2 undergo an english test 2 b able 2 renew my South African Com?

[Turbine Driver]

I heard that a CAA representitive went to Montreal recently to get the up-to-date info on the check...as far as I know canadian pilots had to submit their English school exam passmark in order to be automatically approved? Let's see what the CAA have to say in the next AIC...

[lambert]

I also went to Montreal earlier this month to attend the IALS2 and can confirm the sighting of the SACAA representative. In fact I work in a school with the person responsible for rewriting the ICAO Language manual (Doc 9835).
One of the main complaints at the conference was the lack of standards and international recognition or accreditation. I can emphatically state that ICAO does not accredit either schools or raters. There is no such thing as internationally recognized certification. That said, if the national authority of individual countries decides to approve raters and the ICAO level (4 to 6) is endorsed in the licence (by that national authority), that would then become recognized by receiving states (ie those states that the pilot visits whilst piloting his aeroplane.) At this stage, for example, an Angolan pilot could not go to Cranfield, be tested, and take his certificate back to the Angolan authority to have his licence endorsed (unless Cranfield has been approved by the Angolan authority.)
At this stage there isn't an internationally approved test - a couple of schools have produced their own (RMIT in Australia and Mayflower in the UK to name a couple). Most credible tests include listening to recorded traffic with some method of establishing comprehension of the content and then a simulation of an incident (engine failure, fire, unruly passenger, decompression, etc) to force the candidate to move from phraseology to plain English and back. The candidate is then assessed for pronunciation, structure (grammar), vocabulary, fluency, comprehension and interaction. Once assessed at level 6 ”expert” no further testing is required, level 5 is retested every 5 years and level 4 every 3 years. Whichever test is used, it would have to be acceptable to the national authority.
There are two acknowledged approaches to establishing levels. Firstly a less formal test for those people who have completed their pilot or ATC training in English (normally but not limited to English native speakers) and secondly a formal test for non-native speakers. The former is obviously the approach that the SACAA is following.
Believe me, as a teacher of Aviation English to French ATC, it is important for English speakers to become more aware of the use of decent, understandable English on frequency. If the non-English speakers can put an effort into attaining level 4 then the English speakers can at least use correct terminology and phraseology.
I will never forget the pilot reporting to Port Elizabeth Approach "estimating your's at ...... " and the ATC asking (sarcastically) if he was going to George! That said, I think South Africans are generally well spoken on air and certainly have a good reputation in French airspace.
French ramp inspectors will be checking licence endorsements for minimum level 4 from the 5 March 2008.
International language testing is not a get rich scheme - it is an important contribution to aviation safety.
Safe landings.

[oerlikon]

From a pilot's point of view the Exam may be a bit annoying (actually its a massive pain in the *ss), but has anyone considered the positive effect it will have on the influx of Eastern European ATC's on the SA aviation scene?

As I see it, we are losing highly trained ATCs to the middle east market and inheriting controllers from former soviet block countries. It will at least ensure that local standards of communication are still met.

And to clarify:

1. I still disagree with the R650 for the exam and maintain it should be incorporated in the general radio licence exam.

2. If proven English first language is acceptable then what will the validation fee be?

[lambert]

Interesting that - in Europe with the Common European Licence on the horizon, the French will be forcing non-francophones to have at least a level 5 in French (whatever that is because the ICAO scale only applies to English) (as well as 4 in English) to be able to control in France (that's if the unions allow foreigners in in the first place!)
Would be interesting to know what the requirements are in the way of language levels for foreigners controlling in South Africa.
By the way R650 equates to about 65 euros which is the cost being bandied about in France - the legislation hasn't been finalized yet so it is not possible to be officially tested. There is one hell of a lot of Air France (and other) pilots to be completed by March 2008!

[Leftpedal]

Thought it was on PPrune that I first heard this rumour but can't find the thread now, despite my (inexpert) use of the search function. Anyone got any more details?

[Romeo E.T.]

try http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22774&highlight=english

CAA document http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB2/download.php?id=22744

[Contract Dog]

Just got this email today, wonder how much it would have cost if it was not law? How the hell are you going to pass a flight test if you cant speak the damn language??? R650 for talking **** for 1/2 an hr? Immagine being paid R1300 per hr you fly, thats R130 000 Rand a month if you flew 100 hrs! time to ponder this over a cold beer.

Dog


Hi Guys

We have had so many enquiries from pilots with regard to the above test, that I thought I would email you all!

The EP test is compulsory for all pilots and is an ICAO requirement. You can obtain a temprorary exemption if you have a matric certificate in English as the home language.....which has to be presented to the CAA; however it is temporary and sooner or later the test has to be undertaken. The deadline for all tests is March 2008.

The test is oral, is recorded and saved for five years. It is a test in the form of a conversation involving normal everyday questions and chat, plus aviation english questions...such as answering ATC in a particular scenario. A Linguist and an aviation expert run the conversation and it takes about 30 minutes - 45 minutes depending on the level of the participant. I have attached the flyer explaining the rating levels. I trust this answers all questions.... we are running tests on two afternoons a week at the moment but are happy to raise that if there is a requirement.

Cost for the test is R650 ex VAT, and you need a passport photo for the certificate, which is taken to our CAA..

Kind regards,

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Linguist = someone who can assemble a sentence without fainting.

Aviation expert = 300 hour CPL instructor.

The odour of rodent is pervasive and overpowering....:rolleyes:

[james ozzie]

For R650/hr, I would expect my tutor to be able to spell "temporary"!

[Sultan Ismail]

Just to let you know, the same requirement has been issued by DCA Malaysia, with a deadline of March 2008.

The Testing Panels will be Malaysia Airlines and Air Asia.

Will let you know about the costs (usually 50 Ringgit in your licence) oops sorry that's the traffic cop.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Is Malaysia officially an English speaking country?

[kingpost]

Someone in SA is not revealing the true facts and seems to want to make a quick buck.
The ICAO document describes the English assessment in 2 parts - is the candidate an English native speaker or not.
To qualify as an English native speaker one has to comply with the following :
Hold a passport from a country where English is the first OR one of the first languages
AND
have completed his/her secondary/tertiary education in institutions where English was a medium of instruction
OR
have been employed in a predominantley English speaking workplace.

If you satisfy the above the you are exempt from the assessment but you still need the assessor to assign you a level 6. If you do not comply with the above then one has to be assessed through the various stages.

[Sultan Ismail]

Solid Rust Twotter
The Official language of Malaysia is Bahasa Melayu, a derivative of Bahasa Indonesia. English is spoken and understood in all areas except the kampungs (dorps or rural villages).
Where English signs are displayed in public places the font size has to be less than 60% of that used for Bahasa.
I will follow up with DCA Malaysia on the point Kingpost brought up re the ICAO document.

Still have my GCE "O" Level Certificates for English Language and English Literature. DCA will probably want them translated into Bahasa and certified. :*