Heathrow/Gatwick validation timing

[smellysnelly2004]

Hello there,

I'm currently pondering the Area vs Aerodrome conundrum and would like to know how long (on average) it would take to validate at EGLL and EGKK. If I end up on the aerodrome course (no approach from 211 apparently) then I presume there's a high probability I'd end up at one of these units if I passd the college. I'm guessing about 18 months for both?

[SACrIGGER]

The 'no approach' from your course, means that there will be no single discipline approach, but if you successfully pass the aerodrome, there will be every chance you will then be selected for an approach course, then to be posted to a regional airport.

[steve_atc]

I hear it takes about 12-14months for Heathrow and about 10months for Gatwick, obviously depending on your ability. Ive also heard the chop rates for Heathrow arent far short of that for Swanwick, but Gatwick is a bit better (Correct me if im wrong anyone).

Given the current climate at the college regarding failure rates (given that only 2 people out of 10 on the current Area Advanced course are 1st timers through!) i think it's a far more sensible option to ask for the Aerodrome option as there is a much better chance to validate (and far sooner) than if you get sent to Area. Also, dont expect EGLL or KK to be taking people. There are the other London airports, City are always taking and i hear Luton are short.

Also, if you're interested in having the flexibility to move around the country (and the world), then getting the additional Approach ticket after Aerodrome is definately worth it (And the Approach course is fantastic). If you fail anything practical on the Aerodrome course, it usually means automatic Approach.

Objective one: Get through the college, Objective Two: Validate.
One step at a time, but as i say, with the current climate, far better to request the option thats most likely to see you validate! Unless you have a craving for Area. Hope this helps.

Any questions, pm me.

[smellysnelly2004]

I thought we were told no approach full stop due to LATCC moving. But on thinking about it I suppose it's perfectly reasonable that we could be asked to do approach after aerodrome then go to a regional airport.
Steve - thanks for the info. Guess I'll go with the flow and try to pass whatever I'm given

[loubylou]

I could be wrong - but I thought that folk did the tower rating, got posted, validated, then get sent back to the college at some point to do the radar rating? ( or the other way about - and obviously if sent to a dual discipline airfield)
Or not?
I can't keep up!

louby

[Not Long Now]

Blimey how things have changed. When I went through the college, we all did tower and area, and everyone was asked if they'd like to do approach too, and in any case where they'd like to be posted. All this information was then collated in the big round folder, 6 people picked almost at random for approach and everyone else sent to West Drayton.

[Yellow Snow]

At Heathrow, providing you are number 1 trainee on the watch it's been as low as 6 months and has been as high as 12 months. I would say the average is 9-11 months.
Steve atc, a few untruths and misconceptions!
Ive also heard the chop rates for Heathrow arent far short of that for Swanwick
Considering we haven't taken any trainees for 12 months so we can concentrate on training and moving to the new tower, it's a bit unfair to talk about chop rates, but if you want to bring them up, our chop rates for trainees recruited direct from the college are very low. Roughly, on average for the past 6 years ab initios from the college, about 80% have successfully validated, not too sure how this compares with Swanwick, but I'd say it's pretty good.
Also, dont expect EGLL or KK to be taking people
Apart from the 6 we're taking in the next 3 weeks (would've been 8 but 2 failed at the college) and the fact we want another 6-8 in November, then this statement isn't all that accurate!
Also, if you're interested in having the flexibility to move around the country (and the world), then getting the additional Approach ticket after Aerodrome is definately worth it
Heathrow controllers with only one rating have gone on to work at other UK non NATS and NATS airports, but more importantly, Toronto, Melbourne and Dubai!
Hope the above helps with any students decision making!

[Gonzo]

Considering we haven't taken any trainees for 12 months so we can concentrate on training and moving to the new tower, it's a bit unfair to talk about chop rates, but if you want to bring them up, our chop rates for trainees recruited direct from the college are very low. Roughly, on average for the past 6 years ab initios from the college, about 80% have successfully validated, not too sure how this compares with Swanwick, but I'd say it's pretty good.

From 1st Jan 2000 to the last of the 'old style' (ADC+APR) course ab initios the validation rate was 75%.

Since that time, validation rate of ab initios is 25%.

I researched the figures when myself and a colleague made a presentation to the NATS Training Conference last year, in a plea to better prepare students coming to Heathrow. Hopefully the processes in place will do that for those joining us soon.

[Yellow Snow]

Cheers Gonzo,
I knew you'd offer some wise words here at some stage:)
Any chance you'd like to fill in the gaps for those on here as to why the pass rate nosedived after NATS 'tinkered' with the courses in an effort to save money?:ugh: :ugh:

[Gonzo]

How long have you got, old chap? :}

Pressed for time now, I'm sure I'll add to this later.....

[smellysnelly2004]

Thanks for the answers guys.
Now I've just got to pass basic, get meself on the aerodrome course, pass that and then defy the 25% validation rate!.:eek: :eek:

[fly bhoy]

From 1st Jan 2000 to the last of the 'old style' (ADC+APR) course ab initios the validation rate was 75%.
Since that time, validation rate of ab initios is 25%.
I researched the figures when myself and a colleague made a presentation to the NATS Training Conference last year, in a plea to better prepare students coming to Heathrow. Hopefully the processes in place will do that for those joining us soon.

I'm sure I must be forgetting some people but since the change in course style I can only think of there being 10 an initios?!? 5 of whom are valid, which is 50%. As I say though this is off the top of my head so may be forgetting some people.

FB:ok:

[fly bhoy]

Just re-read your post gonze...

Have I misunderstood and you actually mean ab initios at all units and not just EGLL?? In which case it is a rather worrying figure!!!:ugh:

FB:ok:

[Gonzo]

Nope, LL specific. I can't remember which total you and your colleague were in though, to be honest, as you were 'caught' in the change over.

[fly bhoy]

you were 'caught' in the change over Never a truer word spoken!!!

And I suppose we still did the same aerodrome course from before so didn't have this basic course thing that goes on now!!:confused: :ugh:

If it went solely on course 200 onwards then 25% is definitely nearer the mark which is equally definitely a concern!!

Although I didn't do the approach course (and still say that its not technically required to do the job I do) I can't help but think that it could only have been beneficial to my initial unit training and initial appreciation of the whole ATC system, and it seems a shame to cut it out purely for monetary reasons!! Another consequence of privatisation I suppose, but thats a whole other thread of its own!!!

FB:ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Took me six weeks to validate London Tower (now Heathrow)..... but somebody will probably spoil it all by saying "but it's busier now"!! (And I'd definitely fail nowadays)

Seriously, I spent a year at Kidlington before going to EGLL and the intensity of the R/T at 'TK definitely helped. The other significant factor was that I spent much of my childhood as an avid a/c spotter, spending many hours at LL so I was very familiar with procedures before I started. But then I am also superhuman....

[throw a dyce]

It certainly was the case in the early 80's that you had to validate at another unit before going to LL.That was with people that had done the Radar ticket as well.
Also the training system in place now at all Nats units does slow the process down.All the hoops that have to be jumped through,and it takes about twice as long.
I heard a little rumour that it takes about the same time to get through EGPD now at ab initio stage.Mind you it's got 4 runways and 4.5 terminals.:E

[Roffa]

At TC the number of hours required to reach Level 6 from 5 on LHR approach and some of the TMA sectors has been doubled in order to more accurately reflect reality.

It does seem to take longer to validate then it used to and I wouldn't put it all down to just the airspace being busier.

[A I]

Hi Brendan,

We always knew you were "super" but "human"? Now that is a good question. Enjoy the retirement old bean. Talk on 2 metres sometime!!

A I