Jetstar New Hire Pilots (AWAs) [Archive]

Ultralights

11th May 2007, 08:20

why are AWA's a bad thing again?
Since leaving Qantas i have been working under an AWA, doing the same job..
im $200 a week better off at the base wage level, Annual leave is the same, sick leave is the same (its actually protected if you read the fine print on AWA's from the govt)
i work a 4 day week. (so i dont need to take leave to have a long weekend) all other conditions are the same. oh, except the 4% pay rises every year so far..:ok: and every employee here is on an identical AWA.

under QF on an EBA...... never had a real pay rise in 10 yrs, 2 yrs of wage freezes, very unfriendly 7 day rotating roster/shift,all Union negotiated of course! all of which i had the joy of paying for!:mad:
from my personal experience in the Aviation game.... FuchK the unions!:mad:

cowabunga438

11th May 2007, 10:50

What exactly does the JPC do?

They should just change their name to the Vichy Council

fender

11th May 2007, 10:57

jpc. yawn

hotnhigh

11th May 2007, 10:58

Interesting way the 'Qantas Group' is acting.
Let's see.... short of drivers for the jetconnect ops. Calling back mainline 73 FO's, who have taken leave of absence, to help with the shortage caused by guys going to nz to fix the jetconnect debacle. Mainline 330 blokes having long service and annual leave burned whilst they sit around twidling there thumbs. Short of 744 SOs because most are right on flight time limits for the year and there aint anyone else.
And they call it management.
Hope the JPC have done the research on this one!!!!!

fender

11th May 2007, 11:09

jpc yawn

rsull

11th May 2007, 12:43

I’m with Ultralight here. Whats wrong with AWA’s. Mine is working great.
With a wide body captain salary of $147,809 and “cruise FO” on $88,685.4 your EBA’s are awesome.:} :} :}
Ill pay $33,000 for that. :ugh:

Angle of Attack

11th May 2007, 15:02

What's wrong with AWA's? Lol People are blinded by money and common sense has gone out the window, wow some people are better of with AWA's OF COURSE they are! There is a shortage of workers at the moment! The problem is not now, its when we face a recession and quite frankly you are STUFFED if you are in an AWA system when this happens. High unemployment means people will undercut YOUR AWA because they just want to put food on the table. I dont disagree that AWA's are a good thing personally for some people in some industries at the moment., goddamn it should be while Australia is riding the resources boom. Its not just the young ones these days, a damn lot of Australians are becoming the ME NOW , MONEY, generation, its a damn shame.

I would much rather be on a collective agrement on less pay, because in the long-term you will be better off. Awa's are the ultimate in divide and conquer and CEO's are grinning with pleasure, jsut look at them crowing on about the abolition of them haha, Its pretty damn obvious why, they have all the say and they dont want to lose it. Anyway Rant over, I don't have a problem with people that are on AWA's at all, my fear is the long term repurcussions that will affect fellow Australians working under them.

Anyway there is an easy way to banish them, just use your vote at this years election. :ok:

Rsull lol, exactly!

illusion

11th May 2007, 18:44

What is wrong with AWA's you ask. Let me tell you.

1. The contract can be cancelled by either party with 90 days written notice for no reason. The fall back conditions will be the appropriate industry award. In the case of one particular jet operator the award includes a drop of base salary from circa $125K down to 96K for Captains.

2. The employer is not abliged to offer the same negotiated conditions for new employees. In the case of one particular jet operator this has seen new starts offered an AWA with:

First Officers base salary cut from circa 75K to $61K
From this reduced salary a salary sacrifice of $15K over 2 years to cover some of the endorsement costs and
a 3 year/ $30K bond.
Together with no overtime for the first year and no consumer price indexing of base salary to name a few "alterations".

The behaviour by the management has included, but not been limited to:

Phoning new recruits the evening before their final simulator check and threatening to cancel the check if they do not sign the AWA. They all signed;

Cancelling the AWA of a current line pilot because they refused to sign a bonding clause. The result is a $15,000 pay drop onto the award as described above. Note that this behaviour IS NOT ILLEGAL, it was tested in court and within the guidelines of the new IR laws.

You may reflect on what is to come when the economy turns if this is what can be achieved in the current economic conditions.

Mobi LAME

11th May 2007, 21:18

It's not only going to be the Tech Crew, they are setting up AWAs for 787 Engineers in Jetstar. And as sure as night follows day they will try the same thing in Qantas.

Sandy Freckle

11th May 2007, 22:37

Simply Disgusting!!.

DM
Good God! You are joking, right DM? In fact, not just you my friend, but all Jetstar pilots.

The irony and hypocrisy is astounding.

DM, can you vaguely remember in you not so distant past being critisised for accepting the disgusting pay and conditions offered by Jetstar?

And you now have the nerve to tell someone else that this is "disgusting"?

Sorry mate, but you have already prostituted yourself, and by doing so compromised any claim for the moral high ground.

This is a race to the bottom which YOU, DM, were well and truly involved in. Until such a time as YOU say to Jetstar "I WILL NOT ACCEPT THE SH1T CONDITIONS YOU ARE OFFERRING", you have no right to comment on someone else's race downwards.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Metroboy

11th May 2007, 22:57

If I were a betting man and the $61K rumour was true...I would suggest that perhaps it refers to the rate for "Cruise" First Officers...ie Second Officers?

I could be wrong but I thought most recruiting between now and the end of the year was for CSO's.

Can anyone confirm this?

cowabunga438

11th May 2007, 23:52

It is silly to compare an AWA in some other job to what the JPC negotiated for their EBA.

The JPC negotiated the worst deal possible. They undercut every other airline wage by a good amount in a time when there was expansion in airlines. To say the JPC did a bad deal is like saying Stalin was just being a naughty boy.

The fact is that wages are increasing in all the other airlines. There is a pilot shortage. It is a great position to be in when negotiating a new wage deal.

The thing is who would be better at negotiating? One untrained individual, or a properly organised association.

Now because the JPC is so incredibly bad at representing their pilots, and because of the labour shortage AWAs are doing well in some areas it may well be that in this one case an individual could do better on an AWA than with a JPC negotiated EBA.

However you need to look to the long term. What will happen when there is a downturn, what will happen if there is a terrorist attack and tourism dies to a trickle? It would cause an oversupply of pilots for a year or so. It is then that the protection of a union and an EBA will be vital.

So if Jetstar ever gets some decent pilot representation, you would have to think that for a volatile industry like ours the long term stability of union negotiated EBAs has to have some merit.

The problem isn't that you may do better with an AWA, your real problem is that the JPC is just a crap pilot representative body.

cunninglinguist

11th May 2007, 23:55

C'mon guys !! The JPC are great, just look at the MOU, an absolute corker for all Jet* pilots, and they are always there to help when company tries to underpay you and get you to work outside the EBA conditions, and the dozens of ex AN drivers that got commands out of seniority " 'cause we really needed that guys 6 months effo time on the 320 7 years ago "...........and hey look, was that a pig that just landed.............:ugh:

Cheers5

12th May 2007, 00:20

What does the AWA's mean for new guys, are they likley to be offered less money for the same job?

The Butcher's Dog

12th May 2007, 00:48

From a managing side of things can initiating/renewing 500+ individual AWA’s be an easy matter? So hey, could these AWA’s all be the same but signed as each individual thereby killing any chance of a “collective” agreement??? Is it far from ring ring, “Excuse me Capt/FO WAH WAH we would like to see you for a minute………….”, “OH AH HUH but but but….” a slumped Capt/FO WAH WAH leaves the building after 15 years (or 6months) of service and no job – picture this when you are about to sign the thing.:sad:

IMO this is in no way being in agreement, enterprising or skilful, you aren’t even close to being on the same level ground or league – you ego may like to think that you are. The whole thing is like feeding chickens with grain, and we all go into self preservation mode to protect our jobs, no matter what it takes – great CRM huh.:ugh:

TwinNDB

12th May 2007, 22:48

J* pilots to be undercut by new hires on AWAs. Atleast then they'll know what its like to be undercut by your own 'group' and have to face convergance! :mad:

Mr Al Coholic

12th May 2007, 23:30

Well it seems management want to continue with the splintering of the pilot groups hearing this. The JPC and the pilot group have been fed lies and accepted crap conditions to get the company where it is.
Well, you really cant stop an AWA being introduced for new hires, but what you can do is hurt them (almost ala Virgin style & have aircraft parked up against a fence for a day) and unfortunately a lot of crew fall sick on a particular day due to a bad case of the "sh*ts" and see how they like them apples.
This stuff is very real fella's. The wheel is starting to spin in OZ at the moment. Stop being walked over!

Douglas Mcdonnell

13th May 2007, 05:24

Dear oh Dear Sandy. You seem a little worked up. Actually I was referring to the selling out of the new hires by the company and the JPC. AWAs are not acceptable under any circumstances. This has only just been announced to the pilot group. Don't be concerned the group will be fighting to stop this. Unlike many of your type who blithely sit back and allow all below you to be shafted. Ie Singapore based 1st officers. Obviously you stood on your digs for their rights didn't you!!

Despite your "findings", I think you will find that most Jetstar guys and gals are exactly like you and all others in the industry. Working hard and fighting for a better workplace. As the "guardians of the industry" perhaps you need to be a little bit more concerned about your own back yard before getting hyped about others concerns.

Dm

TwinNDB

13th May 2007, 09:53

Douglas,

I do believe an 'olive branch' was offered to the JPC by AIPA during the negotions for the conditions for J*international but even though this offer came FOC it was denied. By 'olive branch' I mean the realisation by our new CoM that we all sink or swim together.

I now sit back and can only think that the desire to stop the AWAs being introduced is showing your industrial muscle a wee bit too late. The effective time to draw a line in the sand for J* conditions, I believe, has been lost and given the conditions that were negotiated for J* international and how easily they were accepted by the pilot body means that management will continue to test the waters with J* to see just how low the conditions can be pushed.

My previous post was posted in a general mood of anger and frustration at watching my career evaporate because others were prepared to undercut my conditons to do the same type of job, not for another company, but for a rebranded cheap version of Qantas that had had the route structure handed to them from us. However, I genuinely believe that until we can come together as a the 'Group' that management advertises, neither group will prosper. I do however find is rather ironic that the J* body is now in fear of being undercut.

Twin.

PS - If you want to, feel free to PM me for an insight into our part of the Group as I wouldn't mind knowing a bit more of the J* side. It's got to start somewhere I suppose.

Sandy Freckle

13th May 2007, 12:20

Don't be concerned the group will be fighting to stop this.

Ha! The irony is thick, DM. Forgive me for being cynical, because you guys did such a fabulous job of "fighting" for yourselves, let alone fighting for someone else!

Working hard and fighting for a better workplace

But no-one in the industry works harder than J*, or for less pay I might add????

DM, you are still spouting the exact same crap that you came out with years ago. And yup, you were very clearly proven to be at the leading edge of a downwards spiral which has disgusted all others (except management) in the Australian Aviation Industry.

Forgive me if I don't agree with Twin. Whilst his intentions are probably good, he doesn't realise that you will white ant him in a heart beat, taking his job, lifestyle and future.

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

TwinNDB

13th May 2007, 12:43

Sandy,

My (perhaps ours?) future is already starting to be eaten away beacause of past events. My point is the rot HAS to stop at some point or we are all left with nothing.

I'm not happy about J* and the current impications it has on my, and many others careers, but unless something can be done about true convergence (upwards, not downwards) then the only places left for a career, not just a stepping stone, will be Asia and the Middle East. It seems a bit of a shame to me for such a 'lucky country'.

I actually think that the J* pilot body will come to realise that they have traded long term satisfaction for instant gratification but I also know that if I had still been in GA and J* had offered me a position I'd have accepted it in a flash. There just seems to be such a vicious circle. You can't blame guys for trying to earn more money and get out of that fun but nevertheless ****hole (most of the time, despite the fun memories) called GA, but it's a case of out of the pan and into the fire.

The bitching, moaning, fighting and continual race to the bottom in search of fast commands, upgrades, window seats, turbine time etc etc etc has to stop and a genuine attempt (hopefully succesful) to let go of the past and work towards a profitable future must start.

Will it happen? In my lifetime I doubt it, which is a bit of a shame considering I'd like to think I have over 30 years of flying left in me but you never know.

Anyway, time for bed. Tomorrow is, after all another day.

Twin.

dodgybrothers

13th May 2007, 12:55

maybe we should all tune in to next weeks installment of 'bastard boys' and see where we'll be when all of this dust has settled. Makes my skin crawl watching

Blue Ruin

13th May 2007, 16:11

Jetstar deals spark union fears
By Scott Rochfort
May 14, 2007

Qantas has launched one of its biggest ever assaults on the union movement, with its low-cost Jetstar subsidiary confirming plans to put all its new pilots and maintenance staff on individual workplace agreements.
Barely one week since the collapse of the $11.1 billion Macquarie Bank-led bid for Qantas, Jetstar confirmed it was planning to hire 200 pilots and 50 aircraft maintenance engineers on Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs) in the coming months.
"Jetstar as an organisation needs the flexibility to grow, and we believe that a flexible workplace agreement allows us to do that," Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway told BusinessDay. This will represent the biggest intake of staff on AWAs that Jetstar has made.
At present it has 90 long-haul flight attendants on individual agreements after snubbing the international arm of the Flight Attendants Association last year.
Mr Westaway argued that Jetstar staff on the new five-year contracts would be paid the same as existing Jetstar pilots and engineers on enterprise bargaining agreements (EBAs).
Staff on AWAs will be subject to annual pay reviews, rather than the automatic pay increases staff on EBAs can get.
"If the airline performs extremely well, or better than forecast, there's obviously upside for new recruits on these agreements," Mr Westaway said. "It's about embedding a performance culture in the airline," he said. Jetstar has 400 pilots and 150 engineering staff on EBAs.
Sparking union fears that Jetstar's adoption of AWAs could become more widespread, Mr Westaway added that the agreements would be needed to assist the airline's taking on Boeing 787s from August 2008. "We have to move now in respect to the 787 program. We do need to push the button and move now."
Unions fear Jetstar's growing use of non-union staff could eventually spread to Qantas.
"It's a union-busting activity," said the general manager of the Australian International Pilots Association, Peter Somerville.
"It has nothing to do with flexibility; it's about peeling employees from their collective representatives."
Mr Somerville questioned the timing of the Jetstar announcement, given the Industrial Relations Commission is also due to hand down a ruling on whether the union had the right to represent Jetstar crews. Jetstar pilots are represented by a company-endorsed Jetstar Pilots Council.
Mr Somerville added that the move to put pilots on AWAs raised safety concerns. "They are willing to pit pilot against pilot. In a safety culture, that is a major, major mistake and a flaw in their plan. The bean counters just don't get that."
Mr Somerville suggested the Jetstar announcement was a smokescreen aimed at diverting attention from Qantas senior management now trying to wash their hands clean of the Airline Partners Australia takeover they previously endorsed.
But the move follows Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon's warning in March that the airline needed to change, "whatever its ownership structure".
There are suspicions Qantas may even attempt to "wet lease" 787s and crews from the lower-paying Jetstar subsidiary.
Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association federal president Paul Cousins said the hiring of Jetstar engineers on AWAs was an attempt by the airline to sideline unions' efforts to bargain on behalf of their members. He said he was concerned Qantas would outsource operations to its low-cost offshoot.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/jetstar-deals-spark-union-fears/2007/05/13/1178994995758.html

Mr Al Coholic

13th May 2007, 16:11

Twin NDB,
"Olive Branch" eh?? When AIPA are actively fighting to stop J* expansion and the likes in the courts, you expect the pilot body to get on board and forget this and have happy days? Surely you jest? Are you winding us up??
As long as the guardians of the industry keep believing their own bullsh*t and the AIPA spin, you'll keep creeping further from reality.
AIPA, AFAP, Virgin pilots & Jetstar have all had ample opportunity to get together and form one body. We all talk about how great this will be, but neither party is prepared to be the bigger person and merge with the other, because they think their own group is superior. Time is slipping by as the wheel is spinning in our favour as an industry, and before we know it, we'll have all screwed this up once again in monumental proportions for the next 20 years. I hope the honcho's in all the groups can sort their issues out and come together sooner, rather than later. :ok:

alidad

13th May 2007, 18:48

The best performance indicator for aircrew is NO ACCIDENTS, which has been the case to date. How would management like us to improve productivity?

Lets see. I could fly below the minima and land in fog at Canberra. GA pilots have been getting away with it for years. Those pesty diversions do so interrupt the schedule. I could not write up unservicabilities in the maintenance release. Ignore that hydraulic valve that won't shut off; after all what are the chances of an engine fire that would require it shut, so it won't feed fuel to the fire? I could fly with a head cold- what is the probability of a cabin depressurisation that would TOTALLY DEBILITATE me on that one sector?
Bloggs, we note in your annual pay review that you diverted 3 times this past year, and grounded an aircraft twice by writing "things" in the maintenance release. Sorry no pay rise for you.

We are paid to manage the various risks that confront us each day at
work. We should not be pressured to TAKE RISKS that will lead to an incident or accident. The POOR standard of initial and recurrent training that is occurring in ALL jet operators in this country is appaulling and will result in one thing..........

OBNO

13th May 2007, 22:00

Qantas to start recruiting again in July/August. AWA's anyone?

OneDotLow

13th May 2007, 23:45

JPC WTF?!
part of me just says "ah stuff it! let them go!". If the Jetstar boys are willing to forego annual payrises and promotion for new joiners (yes thats right, people who havent evn joined your ranks yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!), so they can 'fly a widebody jet' (sounds a lot like that emirates video doesnt it), then I say let them go and see what happens.

I say its time to forget about JPC and get Virgin and AIPA to band togheter.

Don Esson

13th May 2007, 23:51

There are suspicions Qantas may even attempt to "wet lease" 787s and crews from the lower-paying Jetstar subsidiary

The message for the AIPA specifically and the Qantas workforce generally is: "Be afraid, very very afraid." The games are just about to begin and you need to look not much further than yourselves for the reasons why.

.

Transition Layer

14th May 2007, 00:02

Jetstar pilots are represented by a company-endorsed Jetstar Pilots Council.

And therein lies the problem...time for these spineless pricks (the JPC) to show us what they are made of!

"We have to move now in respect to the 787 program. We do need to push the button and move now."

i.e. There is a growing pilot shortage and we need to sign up as many people as we can now on this ****ty deal!

Al E. Vator

14th May 2007, 00:36

Too many people mired in the past.

Yes: AIPA was arrogant and screwed Jetstar guys. Yes those Jetstar undercut everybody. Yes Virgin Blue guys initially accepted low salaries to get it going. Yes scabs started the whole rot in 1989. The main lesson from all of this is that pilots screw themselves more than managers seem to but...

It's time to get over it all. Its 2007 and that stuff is history. Learn from it but go forward having gained wisdom from those events.

Regroup, refocus and regain what's been lost. Now is the time to advance.

It will need lateral and creative thinking and an entirely new mindset as to how to tackle managerial hypocrisy and sharehoder need for immediate returns but it can be done.

The first step is to stop sniping at each other. The next is to reunite AIPA, AFAP and JPC cohesively and the final is to institute an intelligent battle plan.

Judging by most of the posts here, stage one will probably be the most difficult.

Douglas Mcdonnell

14th May 2007, 00:56

Excellent post Al. This would have to be the most accurate statement i've ever read on this forum.

Others like old Sandy, don't be fooled by your own ignorance. There is one angry pilot body here now. This has really showed all involved that belonging to a union with industrial muscle is absolutely essential when dealing with the "Company".

Id say that there a few heads on the block as we speak.

DM

fender

14th May 2007, 01:03

jpc....yawn

speeeedy

14th May 2007, 01:22

I think it is obvious that AIPA, JPC and AFAP can't really merge, too much history and mistrust.

For the record, most of the mistrust that the JPC has regarding AIPA was fueled by the president jilting them (to the horror of most thinking members), this fellow is now senior QF management, obviously it was a setup. He is now universally hated by the QF pilots as well. Isn't it a bit unfair to blame the present AIPA for what a management stooge did 6 years ago?

Also, some QF pilots will never forgive the JPC for what they did, but I think it is a minority, if the JPC stand up for themselves, like the Virgin pilots are doing, the vast majority of mainline pilots will let bygones be bygones in the hope of a productive future.

So having said all that why can't AIPA, JPC and AFAP work together, as seperate units under the umbrella of one parent organisation? Cohesive but still independant.

This is the only way that any of us have any real hope, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.....

Mr Al Coholic

14th May 2007, 01:36

Good post Speeeedy.
I think you'll find most Jetstar guys don't hold a grudge for AIPA's decision 6 years ago. Its water under the bridge. HOWEVER, the active campaign to stop the expansion of Jetstar in the last 6-12 months (and International side of things, the 330's etc etc) by AIPA is seen as a shot across the bow of Jetstar pilot group. Most can appreciate that if you were a QF pilot, you'd be wanting your union to fight for you...sure, but then to expect to get the group on-side that your challenging, is almost a conflict of interest.
Anyway, you'll be happy to know that theres a lot that aren't happy with the JPC, and their lack of communication to the troops. I think it would be fair to say theres a 'good' chance there will be a changing of the guard next time around. :D

Douglas Mcdonnell

14th May 2007, 01:48

I was at that meeting with the above mentioned stooge. You could have literally heard a pin drop when he stated that AIPA and therefore Qantas pilots couldn't, shouldn't and wouldn't support Impulse pilots that now found them selves working for the QF group. It was one of the most embarrassing displays of head in the sand and hand up your backside management type speeches I have ever experienced.

Unfortunately, the actions of many in both camps over the past 3 years have only added to the problem. These type of muppets are usually hand picked for their jobs.

Personally Id love to see one major union that furthers the industry and pilot conditions as a whole. Blokes like Sandy just don't get it. These ranting agro posts only highlight how effectively the "Company" divided and carefully separated many groups within Qantas. For instance how about the poor ba$tards at National Jet. Pay cuts to fly the 717 and no staff travel, just to name a few of their conditions. I havent seen to many angry posts on Qroom offering support and showing a unified front.

Ive seen this for nearly 40 years now. From the most junior charter guy at a country aerodrome to well established jet pilots within major airlines, greed and modern day style of self serving ignorance is and will always be exploited by employers chasing every saving.

While ever we argue and sling mud we all loose. An Australian pilot union that covers everyone from the top to the bottom would make this type of rubbish a lot more difficult for companies to implement. Until then all we can do is try our best against in an ever increasingly difficult environment

DM.

TwinNDB

14th May 2007, 02:54

It would seem then that the majority of the posts on this thread are along the lines of, 'each body has done things to piss the other body of, but we have to get over it for the future'.

I would like to think that if we can learn to accept that no one side is blameless, acknowledge it and then move forward we should ALL see a very very prosperous future, especially building into the figures a real shortage on the way.

If not, I guess we'll all see each other at the bottom...

Twin.

UAL Furlough

14th May 2007, 04:10

I have a completely different take on these AWA's. I believe the company wants them because on the current T&C's, they simply cannot find the pilots to fuel the expansion and therefore they are going to offer these new hires MORE money and better working conditions to get them to sign on.
We have been talking about pilot shortages for some time and I believe that the time has finally arrived. There is certain demand for pilots and a finite supply. As the pay and conditions go up the supply goes up (demand goes down of course). At the current pay for Jetstar pilots there is simply not enough supply to meet Jetstars demand. Therefore, they have to offer more to the new guys, but they are going to try to do it by shafting the current employees and not changing their pay and conditions. In effect, the current Jetstar pilots will subsidize the operation if they allow it to happen.
But this is what we have been waiting for as a pilot group. A lack of supply of pilots at the current wage, thus wages should go up. There was no doubt that when Jetstar pilots agreed to the last EBA, the company had been willing to offer more, but we didn't have the balls to say no. Now is our chance to redeem ourselves.
The only way the JPC should agree to AWA's is if the company opens the current EBA back up for amendment and some of the stuff that has to happen:
1. Immediate 20% pay raise across the board
2. Immediate change to 12 days off in 31 day months, 11 in 30 day months.
3. 65% for F/O's
4. Eliminate junior f/o and cruise F/O salaries
5. No pay for endorsement
6. Limit on number of AVAIL days each month when rostered over 75 hours.
7. Insert your wish
8. Insert your wish
9. Insert your wish
I believe that the pilot shortage is upon us, at least at this pay and conditions level. Once Tiger and anyone else moves into the Australia market it will only get better.
Now is the time to band together and move forward. Luck is opportunity meeting preparation....I believe the opportunity has arrived, the question is is are we prepared or at least ready to prepare??

speeeedy

14th May 2007, 05:18

Mr Al Coholic,

AIPA took Qantas to court, not the Jetstar pilots.

You will find that in case history involving a proven transmission of business the judge has always left the staff in place and has given them the conditions from the transferred entity.

Wholesale sackings would never happen because the basis of Transmission of business is only about the terms and conditions involved. It has nothing to do with which individuals do the work.

So if AIPA had won, not a single Jetstar pilot would have been moved, it is just that Jetstar 330 pilots would have got a rather large raise.

I reckon this proves that, generally, AIPA has honourable intentions. They (meaning us QF pilots) were funding a legal action which would see Jetstar guys get the bonus.

The win for QF pilots would have been the removal of a very stark comparison that presently exists for widebody T&C's within the group.

Jawz

14th May 2007, 06:21

Pardon my ignorance

What is wrong with AWA's when there is a "Pilot Shortage”?

Won't the market forces dictate higher pay like in the mining sector?

Transition Layer

14th May 2007, 07:58

http://www.jetstar.com/pdf/news/20070514.pdf
Hmm...UAL Furlough, looking at the spin JQ is putting on it, I think it might be a bit of wishful thinking on your behalf. I can't help but think that they're locking people in to a ****ty 5 year deal because they know the pilot shortage is looming - it's not quite here yet.

(Edit: 666th post, how appropriate that it's about the Orange Starred Devil!)

neville_nobody

14th May 2007, 08:12

AWA's favour the strong. Airlines have the upper hand at the moment so they will try and screw over all and sundry.
However they will find it "coming straight back at them" if there is suddenly more labour pressure.
If Tiger were smart here they could nail Jetstar big time by offering good T & C.

If that happens Jetstar could find themselves with a shortage of crews and noone willing to sign. Or alternatively sign up for 6 months then leave for somewhere else.

These AWA's could either be a master stroke, screwing down T & C or the beginning of the end if there is suddenly more pressure on pilot labour.

If Jetstar are trying to discourage young people from becoming pilots they sure are going the right way about it:hmm:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/jetstar-to-put-pilots-on-awas-citing-need-for-flexibility/2007/05/13/1178994998646.html

UAL Furlough

14th May 2007, 08:40

TL,

You could be right....but I believe that they had problems recruiting the captains they needed for the initial A-330 and with 9 more A-320's on the way and more A-330's plus the 787 needing to be addressed soon, I believe they are going to have problems getting captains. So my guess is the "flexibility" that they want is the ability to attract captains with higher pay, while at the same time trying to screw it to the entry level cruise f/o's and F/O's.

Time will tell. No matter the answer, if T&C's stay the same, there will eventually be a mass exodus from Jetstar. If I was Virgin and Tiger, I would recruit hard from Jetstar just to decimate their work force. It's hard to compete with your aircraft parked in the corner.

RFN

14th May 2007, 09:33

EBA's AWAs or whatever, do the numbers. J* curently has approx 350 pilots with an anticipated pilot work force of maybe 800-900 by 2010. The halfway point is nearly there, so from mid next year new hire F/O's WILL have to wait YEARS for a command, a la virgin etc...while DEC on AWA's absorb the expansion.
Don't you just luv this industry...

Sandy Freckle

14th May 2007, 21:12

Mmmmmmm.

There is plenty of sentiment of "lets all get it together for the sake of us all" going on in this thread.

Problem is, people like DM have come along and usurped the industry. Face facts. It has happened. Do we really expect his ilk to now stand up and say that it is wrong for others to do the exact same? Yes, but only if his head is on the chopping block. He knows full well that others will take his job given half the chance, and management will stand back laughing.

Others have stated here that pilots are in this for themselves, always have, always will.

It absolutely disgusts me when DM's type do what they do, then turn around and condemn others for doing the same thing. It is the height of hypocrisy. And DM wonders why we have zero respect for him.....

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

theheadmaster

14th May 2007, 21:35

AWAs are all about removing your ability to collectively negotiate. When you have the ability to collectively negotiate you will, by definition, be in a much stronger position at the negotiating table and therefore be able to negotiate a better outcome. I cannot believe that some people here believe the government hype that AWAs allow better pay and conditions. Using the WA mining industry as an example is a phurphy. To compare "apples with apples" you would have to say how much better off would WA mining industry workers be if they were able to collectively bargain, not simply compare them to other industries in other locations. The mining industry does not like the Labor IR position because it removes its ability to LOWER pay and conditions that Work Choices gives them.

AWAs are bad for workers in all market conditions, boom or bust, shortage of labour or glut.

Jimothy

14th May 2007, 22:38

This all about giving Jetstar the ability to recruit Direct Entry Captains for the coming expansion, and bypassing all you current Jetstar crews. Great company hey.

Shlonghaul

14th May 2007, 23:19

Did anyone else see Lateline Business on the ABC last night? The Garden Gnome from Jetstar was on doing his best Pinocchio impression. He's looking for more flexibility by putting people on AWAs along with the Qantas Groups catchphrase of sustainable management solutions going forward..............in other words screw the workers so management can receive a bigger bonus :E

Capt Basil Brush

14th May 2007, 23:59

Whiskey Oscar Golf

15th May 2007, 00:52

Do Not Go Down An AWA Road. There have been several posts suggesting AWA's are good in a shortage market. Wrong, while some people may reap a short term benefit there is a flexibility there that will allow that to become easily erroded.

AWA's can be changed and if one or two of your workforce accepts the new amendment then the rest of you will be painted as troublemakers. The signees will be working different conditions while you are not. Not a good thing for harmony.

When it comes time for you to re negotiate the 50% numbers will see some people targeted to sign the new one. They may get more, leaving the other 50% less. Oh you can stay on the old one, again with different T&C's. You may also see the targetees losing or having their benefits erroded. You should always remember you will have to give something up that may not be evident at the beginning, but might make your life less fun.

If there are several versions all new hires will be given the worst AWA and told to sign. There will be no indication of another, again having people on different T&C's.

AWA's are very useful in seperating workforces and identifying "troublemakers" as well as constantly tweaking conditions in an employers favour. On an industry level they again fracture and divide, making animosity and losing the cohesion that works for everyone.

Collective bargaining has it's own problems but at least everyone is on the same page. Employers are in a good position now but maybe the pendulum has swung a bit too far and we should remember the further it swings one way the further it has to swing back. That won't help anyone.

neville_nobody

15th May 2007, 02:22

How good would the conditions in WA Mining be under AWA's if there was a surplus of mining engineers, and mining workers for the last 20 years, all out to undercut each other, and take the piss out of each other at every opportunity??

Good point but people generally only get into mining because of the money. If a guy could live in Perth and earn the same money as he did on the mine noone would go and work in the mining sector. So AWA or no AWA mine workers will always be paid well as people won't go and work for peanuts.

In aviation everyone is so desperate to climb the greasy pole of endorsements they will happily screw over all and sundry just to get a jet job. That is the real issue in aviation. Australian pilots are becoming some of the lowest paid aviators in the world, and this happened before AWAs.

Whiskey Oscar Golf

15th May 2007, 03:50

Mr. Nobody, you are correct of course but collective EBA's have some sort of safety margin in the sense that everyone is getting the same. By opening up the AWA genie you will see individuals accepting less to climb that greasy pole. With EBA's it's harder to say " it'll cost you less to use me and and not that bloke".

CabAltHi

15th May 2007, 06:05

WOG and Headmaster are spot-on. AWA's are between an individual and the company and because they are confidential there can be an infinite number of different terms and conditions from one pilot to the next that wont be available for viewing like an EBA. Taking away an EBA removes the bargaining power of a large group. Do you think the Qantas board would be doing this if it wasn't absolutely in THEIR interest. "Flexibility" is just the tip of the iceberg. The whole spin that it is better for the employees is just garbage.
The most interesting fact now is that it really is only a matter of discussion for any Pilot or Engineering body now. There is NOTHING that can be done legally to stop these AWA's being implemented. Qantas wants it to happen so it will and Jetstar wont be the only one affected. I have been told by several people that all new hires in Qantas when they recruit again will be offered AWA's. NJS have been on them for years haven't they?
I'm certainly not happy about it and if there is anyone out there who has a workable plan to unite ALL our groups and somehow preserve what little we have left rather than continually bagging each other then i'd love to hear it.

Voodoo Guru

15th May 2007, 06:10

Word around the traps is the majority of Jetstar guys are going sick, or refusal to work a day off on Friday 25th May (3rd Birthdate of JQ), as a protest to the AWA's. AJ mentions on lateline he has a good relationship with the pilot body-he might realise the consequenses of his actions when hardly any Airbuses are going that day.

Good luck fellas/ladies. :D

Parc-Ratstej

15th May 2007, 06:50

What are the implications of the JPC implementing a recruitment ban?Sort of what cathay and dragon have done over the past couple of years.Pilots join the company under the eba or not at all!

Mud Skipper

15th May 2007, 07:00

Voodoo,

Sounds like the best minds of 89' have got back together on that one, yea boys and girls I'm sure the star will take that one laying down, not.

I'd be surprised if anyone goes sick on the day for fear of having their ass sued off, not even a death certificate would stop the lawyers swooping in.

Dream on - J* and unity :} :} :} :}

Howard Hughes

15th May 2007, 07:03

After that announcement, I feel sorry for those who will be genuinely sick on that day...:hmm:

Reason

15th May 2007, 13:19

Spread the word people...

It's in all of our best interests - John Howard must go!!!

Capt Kremin

15th May 2007, 14:23

Hopefully this will concentrate the minds of the Jetstar pilots who mistakenly think that AIPA is the enemy, in the right direction.

toolish

15th May 2007, 23:41

They cant get capt on a 3 year deal is that telling those os Capt something. For goodness sake if you come back on an AWA ask for a lot more than I am getting, I am sure they will give it to you dont waste your oppotunity like we as a group have.

I hope all in Jetstar have FINALLY taken off the blinkers.

As far as AIPA is concerned I will say it again when they can legally cover us I am sure more will join.

Bazzamundi

16th May 2007, 03:21

One has to wonder why Qantas is spending so much money in the courts trying to prevent AIPA representing anyone other than mainline crew. Perhaps that alone should tell us something.

The Jetstar AWA scenario is quite possibly going to happen with QF in the not too distant future. Perhaps now is a good time to team up and together implement a strategy to fight the issue. Can't do us any harm. Surely that would be the biggest nightmare for QF management. Give them some headaches for once.

Lets work together people.

Angle of Attack

16th May 2007, 12:14

LOL some of you are damn wimps, anyone saying your gonna get done for having a sick day are complete fools, whether there is a supposed plan or not, if I want a sick day I will get it with a medical certificate. Anyone that says otherwise well take it up with my doctor. If you obtain a medical certificate the issue is between the employer and the doctor, period!, if there is an issue. And as anyone knows you can get a medical certificate piece of piss, what doctor is gonna say "No I don't believe you are sick you should go to work!" Because of the crap liability society we are in, so why not use it to your advantage? haha!! Anyone can get a medical certificate, and I would love to see someone done in court for going sick with a certificate! Bring it on, it will never succeeed.

Even while being screwed so many are heartless wimps, I can't beleive it, that is why this Howard Government is happening.. think about it.