PPL flying a 747

[mrjamesgroves]

Could a PPL fly a 747? This is the discussion that I've had with my colleagues tonight. Clearly some tuition would be required! But could it be achieved with the correct type rating and training?

[Dan Winterland]

I expect so, but you can only fly it for non hire and reward on a PPL and of course you would have to have it as a type on your rating page. Once you have done an approved groundchool and the simulators (about a couple of months) and the base training you will then have it on your licence. But I doub't you could rent one with just an hour on type, so the rquired training to get to the stage you could, well with no jet experience - it would take a very long time. And then the CAA would take an interest and want to assess your operation. And you would have to find a like minded PPL because it's licensed as a two crew aircraft. And insurance?

Yes, its possible, but highly improbable.

[mingalababya]

Does John Travolta have a CPL or PPL when flying his 707?

[Felix Saddler]

He's only got his PPL, theres a thread about it here on pprune, not too sure where it is tho!

[G-CPTN]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=266790

[Fright Level]

With a slightly different aspect, there's an article in this months UK Pilot magazine discussing whether a PPL could land a 747 in an emergency. The vote was no.

On this subject, ie with training is it possible, I'm not sure how this would work as the 747 is certified as a two crew aeroplane, so you'd need at least 2 PPL's. Assuming it's privately owned, the CAA would be interested in all the other arrangements like standard operating procedures etc.

I reckon it's a no-goer.

[BillieBob]

Could a PPL fly a 747?It depends on your definition of 'a PPL'. There is no reason to believe that a person could not fly a 747, or any other aircraft, purely by virtue of the fact that he or she holds a PPL. The licence that one holds is no measure of experience or ability - for example, I now hold only an NPPL (arguably a lower status of licence than a PPL) and I can fly, and have flown, a 747.

The practicality, however, is slightly more complex. Before commencing a B747 type rating course (assuming that it was a first MPA type) you would need 100 hours PIC, an MCC course, a valid MEIR and a pass in the ATPL exams. You would also need to find an approved TRTO that was prepared to take you on as a customer and a B747 operator that was prepared to allow you to complete the mandatory flight training in their aeroplane.

The answer to the question is, therefore, yes in theory but probably no in practice.

[Glasgow_Flyer]

Isn't there a weight restriction on the type of a/c you can fly with a PPL?

[RatherBeFlying]

there's an article in this months UK Pilot magazine discussing whether a PPL could land a 747 in an emergency. The vote was no.If you can find your way around the FMS, set up the autopilot and autothrottle and put down the gear and the various stages of flaps as required, the plane will land itself on a cat III runway.

There are a number of simulator operators who are able to teach even student pilots how to manage a manual landing.

But if you have just came out of a spamcan with no IR, there's rather a lot to learn in a very short time.

[IO540]

I am sure that a private pilot who flies something reasonably quick and understands "flying by numbers" would have no problems landing a 747 - once he found out how to disconnect the autopilot, operate the flaps, and looked up the various numbers (like Vref, but I dare say 150kt would do). A handheld GPS would do just fine for navigation to, say, Manston.

I gather than the AP will disconnect anyway if you yank the yoke hard enough.

Finding the VHF radio, and how to use it, would be harder, IMHO.

[vanhigher]

this sounds good !!

does anybody know where I could look to book a 747 trial lesson ?

[shaun ryder]

LOL:D , dream on IO540 :D .

[BillieBob]

Isn't there a weight restriction on the type of a/c you can fly with a PPL?Not any more. According to JAR-FCL 1.110, "Subject to any other conditions specified in JARs, the privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act, but not for remuneration, as pilot-in-command or co-pilot of any aeroplane engaged in non-revenue flights."

[MSP Aviation]

Not any more. According to JAR-FCL 1.110, "Subject to any other conditions specified in JARs, the privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act, but not for remuneration, as pilot-in-command or co-pilot of any aeroplane engaged in non-revenue flights."

Ahhh, therein lies the rub. Boeing got the 747 certified as an airplane. :}

[Dan Winterland]

Anyone could land a 747-400!

The Hollywood scenario of a cabin attendant being talked down by a controller or pilot on the ground was discussed on one of those long Atlantic crossings one night. So I had a go at talking down Mrs W while she was flying a very realistic 744 simulator we had on the computer at home. No problems. Provided the route to the destination was loaded, most people could be led through entering the approach and making the correct autopilot selections for it to do an automatic approach and landing.

Radios wouldn't be a problem. Most PPLs would recognise a the radio contol panel and tune a frequency, a non pilot should be able to pick up the hand mike and get a response. Tuning should be easily explaied, if the cock it up you brief them to press the transfer button and go back to the previous freq before they switch.



The 747 Classic is a different matter. I would say proabably not!

[IO540]

There is world of difference between a cabin attendant and a competent (non-ME jet) private pilot :ugh:

Isn't it funny how the one-line posts above contain the least amount of useful information ;)

Why would the 747 Classic be harder?

[shaun ryder]

In the pilot incapacitation scenario, the senior cabin attendant is trained to be competant in reading A/C checklists in order to assist the pilot flying. Also she or he, is much more akin to the surroundings of an airliner flight deck than your average PPL. They may even hold a licence of their own, who knows?! With regards to just finding the autopilot, disconnecting and then simply flying the machine raw data. Well consider the more than significant difference to your average spam can. Speed control, flying the correct attitude and configuration, trimming, setting thrust, the list goes on :ooh: . Whether it be a 'classic' or 400, I suspect most would be simply overwhelmed in no time.

[sternone]

The answer is clearly NO...

I quote pilot may 2007 page 28: can a ppl fly a jumbo ?

'a novice would not even be able to get into the electrical seats without being shown how they work'

'it's just a whimsical VFR piston-pilot's pipe dream'

'all flight decks now have armoured doors with deadbolts that cannot be opened from the outside, sorry, you're gonna die'

'where is he? where is he going ? to whom is he talking ? a mere twenty minutes of faffing around will put the aeroplane at least 200miles further along tract, VHF radios have a 200 mile range so the aeroplanes probably out of the range of the ATC they were talking to, if he can figure out a frequency to select, where's the transmit button ? there are a couple but both are hidden away out of sight, one looks very like the button that disengages the autopilot, you're all dead'

'need to program the runway in use and its ILS into the flight management system, that has to be manually selected'

'at least his final moments will be beautiful...'

[BackPacker]

sternone, I agree with you that a PPL, without any type-specific training would not be able to land a 747 successfully although I'd certainly try it if nobody better qualified would be on board after the pilots had become incapacitated. But that's not what the original question was about. That was about whether it would be legal to fly it, if properly trained (e.g. type-rated) on just a PPL, or whether a CPL/ATPL was required. And the answer seems to be "yes" although the type rating courses are currently aimed at ATPLs, and are taught to ATPL standards.

And no access to a 747 cockpit in-flight... I don't believe it. The cabin is stocked with rescue equipment such as axes and things, and I'm pretty sure that I can get into the cockpit with those tools after a few minutes of dedicated effort. And that's exactly how they should have been designed. After all, the point of the armored doors is not to block access completely (that would require a vault door), but to prevent hijackers gaining access *quickly*. So that the crew has time to send out a mayday signal, set the transponders, make its way to the nearest airport, dump fuel and do all the other things that greatly reduces the hijackers ability to carry out whatever their intentions were.

One of the main 9/11 problems was that there was no warning whatsoever. The planes just dropped off the scopes and nobody knew what had happened until some 90 minutes later. If the crews would only have a few additional seconds in which to send out the "mayday we're being hijacked" then the situation would have been much clearer from the start, and a much better response would have been possible.

How long does it take for a fighter on standby to scramble, take-off, head in the general direction of the airliner and find it on primary radar? That's the time the cockpit doors need to withstand an attack.

[IO540]

Backpacker is right. This has already been widely discussed in the airline sections of pprune in connection with the Cypriot B737 depressurisation incident, and others (so it's no secret). The cockpit can be accessed from the outside and at least one member of the outside crew knows how to do it. It doesn't involve forcing the door or anything like that.

Sternone - the UK pilot mags will print any old rubbish and the quotes you gave are a fine example. In any case, nobody would (in that situation) be trying to set things up for a Cat 3C approach; one would fly it manually, and a 747 will fly manually just fine. Nearer to a landing, one would slow down to say 250kt which is only a little faster than a decent IFR tourer, and I've seen ground speeds well above 200kt in a descent from say FL150 with tailwind.

If the competent private pilot had next to him a really dedicated FS2004/FSX sim player, they could do quite well. Many sim types fly real routes (which they check against Eurocontrol, believe it or not), real STARs, approaches, the works. They even use real ATC, provided (over the internet) by current or retired ATCOs.

[Floppy Link]

nobody would (in that situation) be trying to set things up for a Cat 3C approach

wtf not? The automatics can do a much better job of flying the aircraft. Why give yourself extra work?

[IO540]

Floppy - I would challenge you to work out how to configure my "simple" TB20 autopilot to fly a coupled ILS, and this statement is true even if you were a current serving Boeing or Airbus captain. And yes I have tried it with both types and neither could work it out. They didn't have much trouble, but neither had the slightest hope of working it out for themselves. Simple, but much too equipment specific.

Somebody less than fully trained would have absolutely zero chance of working out how to set it up.

Manually, on a good day, can't see why a visual landing could not be pulled off by somebody not type rated.

[BackPacker]

And if it's a true emergency, remember that you as the substitute pilot get to pick the field, straight into the wind, with a long runway and cavok conditions, if fuel allows. If you land the plane then that's good enough for everybody. It doesn't have to be at the right airport, on schedule.

You'll be on a discrete emergency frequency and I'm pretty sure ATC will find you a nice and friendly type-rated captain to talk you through everything. With a bit of luck you'll have a chase plane next to you to visually guide you to the approach path, and to provide moral support. No speed limits or other restrictions will apply so you can intercept the ILS (or let the A/P intercept the ILS) at 10.000 feet if necessary, while in the approach configuration & at approach speed.

And if you can't see the runway, look for flashing blue lights. The runway will be next to them.

Biggest problem that I would see in a cavok, light wind, manual approach & landing is judging at what height to flare and how much.

[Fuji Abound]

My first landing in something very similiar was in a professional sim, the first approach was into Gatwick and I had about ten minutes briefing before. That landing wasnt pretty but the aircraft stayed on the runway, the undercarriage survived and everyone would have walked away - so I suppose on the basis it was a good landing. So yes it is quite possible - but perhaps with a little help.

For most PPL the hardest aspect to cope with is that the aircraft reacts a great deal more slowly to changes in power than they will be accustom, in consequence it is very easy to be constantly chasing the glide slope and without care ending up high or slow.

Mind you if you are use to fly one of these new diesel jobs like the 42 the engines behave much more like turbines!

[vee-tail-1]

Any of you dreamers ever seen a 747 classic flight deck?
There are three autopilots, all of which have to be set up & engaged for autoland. But assuming the incapacitation happened in the cruise, and you had heroically battered down the cockpit door, you now are confronted with two pilots panels and a huge flight engineers panel. You probably have a few hours left to play before you all die, so why not attempt to avoid running out of fuel by setting up the seven fuel tanks and 14 fuel pumps. Unless you would prefer to die in a glider. But then again it would be useful to retain conciousness to enjoy all this drama, so see if you can figure out how the cabin pressurisation controls work. Classics gradually change trim because of fuel used, and the in use autopilot should compensate for this. Sometimes it does'nt and you may need to trim manually. When you disconnect will be the most exciting part of your whole short trip, and will be accompanied by lots of warning lights and noises. Coffin corner will get you and the final dive to earth will be a most exciting rollercoaster ride.
I know hope springs eternal, but if someone at BA can set up a realistic situation on a 747 classic simulator (without the armoured door!) and let a ppl try to take over & land, you will see what I mean.
Lose your pilots on a big jet and you are all going to die..sorry.
:{

[sternone]

That all leads us to the question: should in emergency's like this, a system be activated that allows people on the ground control the airplane and safely land it ? technically it's no problem to link the airplane (any fly by wire one) to a simulator on the ground that's controlling the jumbo up there....

[Dan Winterland]

Ref my previous post regarding my missus having a go at getting the thing down, I thought I would re-run the exercise. However, Mrs W has a hangover, so wasn't interested (that's what happens when you start the evening with a pint of G & T!), so Winterland junior was co-opted instead. He's 13, plays computer games but has very little interest in aircraft or becoming a pilot (smart lad!). The simulator we used is the excellent PS1.3 which is so realistic and faithful in it's represetation of the 744 that several 744 TRTOs use it as part of their training.

This is how it went:


The scenario was that he has just got into the flight deck and is faced with an aircraft in the cruise at FL370, just thirty miles prior to TOD into Honolulu. It's one of the pre loaded sceanrios the sim has in it's database. I'm acting as the pilot on the ground talking him through and I'm not cheating by looking at the screen except on a couple of occaisions when I need to show him where a particular control is, as the sim doesn't look like MS FS2004. It has composite screens and I can't describe where - for example- the autobrake knob is, I have to show him.

First, I get him to look at the ND, the HNL VOR has autotuned, so I know he's at 95 DME. I make sure he can identify the ALT knob on the MCP and he winds it down to 5000'. I then guide him to the FLCH button, and he pushes it. He confirms we're descending. We confirm from the PFD he's in LNAV. From the upper EICAS display, we learn we have 45 tonnes of fuel, enough for 4 hours. Now we have a look at the FMC to see what's loaded. The incapacited crew have already loaded the approach, but it's the wrong one. The ATIS is giving an ILS 08 approach, the crew had loaded the ILS 04. (The runway change is part of the PS1.3 scenario). He selects DEPP/ARR and I talk him through selecting the new approach. There's a slight snag selecting it - turns out the 'decccelerate' message is in the scratchpad. We clear that, get the new approach selected and executed.

A quick check of DME against height shows we're quite a bit above the profile due to starting the descent late. I don't want to have to talk him through using the heading bug, so we open the speed window, select IAS from Mach and select a faster speed. We're now going down faster. Time to set QNH. We press the STD button, and he sets the QNH with reference to the PFD. Height check - still too high so we go for airbrake to the flight detent. Now we're really coming down. We get to 5000' abeam the airfield (I don't have an approach plate for PHNL, so I don't know about terrain - I just guess), the speedbrakes are stowed to the ARM position, (one less thing to do later) the speed is selected at 230 and flap 1 selected. A quick check of the FMC legs page shows there's a discontinuity due to the SID being incorrect for the approach. We talk through clearing the discontinuity (another scratchpad message 'discontinuity ahead' has to be cleared) and we execute the change.

I now get him to identify the speed bug and get him to select the flap 5 speed on the PFD. We slow down and select flap 5. Ditto for flap 10. now we descent to 3000' using FLCH. I talk him through selecting VREF on the FMS Init Ref page and get him to select Autobrake 3. LNAV has by now turned the aircraft onto base, so I direct him to the MCP APP button, it's pressed and he can see LOC and GS in white on the top of the PFD. Flap 20 next. The LNAV turns the aircraft onto finals, LOC capture. At 13 DME, I get him to find the gear lever and lower the gear. He can see DOWN green on the upper EICAS display, so that's good. At 10DME, he confirms GS capture on the PFD, we go for flap 25 and then flap 30, the speed bug is set so it's just above VREF on the speed strip. Passing 1500', he confirms we have LAND3 in green on the PFD, we are now set up for a CAT3b autoland which is just as well, as the PS1.3 scenario has given us CAT2 weather! The landing is perfect, he tells me when the GS on the ND reads zero, I tell him well done and sit tight while we get someone out to the aircraft to taxy it back in.

Winterland Junior has just carried out a perfect CAT3b autoland with no drama. There was no need to hand fly or trim or touch the thrust levers, no overspeeds, and no need to tune beacons. I din't make the senario overly easy as we had to re-programme the approach and we had to take action to prevent getting too high on the descent profile. Had he not been able to clear the discontinuity and LNAV not been available, we could have still worked our way round selecting heading and steering on an intercept for the LOC. Had he needed to go round, I could have easily directed him press the TOGA buttons and talked him round in HDG onto the ILS.

So I stand by my original statement - yes, a PPL could land a 744.

Mrs Winterland has promised to have a go when she's feeling better. I expect she will do quite well as she's sat on a 744 flightdeck during landing on several occaisions and has also done some flying training.

The Classic is different. It would be very hard to talk someone through an autolanding in that (I have ratings on both 74Cs and 744s BTW). It's nowhere near as user friendly and the navigation alone would be a nightmare. Also, I currently fly an Airbus FBW type and I don't think it would be as easy to talk someone through an autoland as the 744.

[Clarence Oveur]

Just a small correction Dan.

A PPL could programme the 744 systems to perform an autoland - as could probably most people - which is not quite the same as a PPL landing a 744. In this case whether a person has a PPL or not is irrelevant.

Your scenario also lacks some of the factors that would be present in real life. Such as the pucker.;)

[shaun ryder]

:ok: All very well sat in an armchair on a Sunday morning with the smell of bacon being cooked in the background! Reality is, as we know is a tad different.
Keep dreaming guys!

[MrHorgy]

I spend a bit of time on FS9 in between studying for my ATPL writtens, much to the amusement of my housemates. On asking if they could have 'a play' 4 out of 5 of my housemates have managed to sucessfully land the Level D 767, which is a pretty accurate representation of the real 300ER. One even managed to hash fly the ILS using just the instruments, although that took some coaching.

And you'd be surprised at the length of realism some people go to with their virtual aviation, VATSIM (a virtual ATC client network) used to do 'cross the pond' flyins, and it was very amusing to see about 30 aircraft in various stacks into Heathrow one way, and then out again.

I have heard the legal bit about being able to fly any aircraft, as has been pointed out though you'd be hard pushed to find a TRTO that would take a PPL!

Horgy

[slim_slag]

Why would a mere PPL be expected to crack under the pressure? Never flown a SEP in IMC over the mountains on a moonless night? Flying a nice automated 747 with anti-ice, four super reliable turbine engines, and a nice 747 pilot on the ground telling you everything is going to be OK must be a mental cakewalk in comparison. Myself, I'd demand a bottle of duty free gin and sit myself down in the back, one understands first class is mainly full of airline employees anyway, I'd let one of them do the work.

[G-Dawg]

I'm sorry, manually fly the descent, approach and landing in a B747-400, I don' think so, like stated above an auto land would defo be the way to go, I'm on the B737 and I wouldn't fancy hand balling a 74 on my own in an emergency situation for the very first time...We discussed the original scenario during our ATPL groudschool with our instructors, can a ppl fly a B747, and the answer we were given was yes. All they have to do is the type course and then buy themsleves a B747, or fly a friends...sharing costs of course!!! and if you havn't got an IR you could only fly it VMC, how cool would that be!!!

[PompeyPaul]

Ok,
This is inspired by the thread "PPL flying a 747". Usual disaster movie scenario, pilot has eaten the fish, all are incapacitated, call goes over the speakers "can anybody fly a plane ?"

I've got 30 hours, not a PPL, but let's say you are the only person on board that steps forward.

Surely, you press the PTT button and speak to the ground station. If none available you go to 121.5 and issue the "mayday" message.

Wouldn't the 747 just land itself on auto ? Can it really be that hard to fly straight and level until you get some sort of response ?

[G-Dawg]

errrrrr..are you serious....

[Dan Winterland]

Could a PPL fly a 747? was the orignal question. I think it was a question about it being possible, both logisticly and legally. We've suffered a bit of thread creep, we are now on 'could a 747 be landed if the pilots were incapacitated?' I think both questions have been answered.

If you're talking about a PPL sitting on the flightdeck and thinking he will click the autopilot out and have a go, it will likely end in disaster. From being in the cruise and finding an airport where he can get the thing in a position to land it manually will be so far removed from his experience that he wouldn't be able to cope - let alone the landing. The sceanrio where my son got it on the ground is very very different. He was just sitting there pushing the buttons on my instruction. It was actully me flying the thing while not looking at what he was seeing, just looking at a plan of the flightdeck to remind me where things were, as although I'm rated on the 744, it's 4 years since I last flew it. He had little understanding of what was going on, he was just reporting what he could see. The first thing I would have said was "Don't touch the control column or the thrust levers - at all!" The scenario where he would have diconnected the autopilot would have been a disaster. In this case a lack of knowledge was beneficial.

The 744 is designed to be flown on automatics. If you were the 30 hour pilot and got on the flight deck in the cruise, you will find it on autopilot. Picking up the hand mic and just talking would get a response, even in half way across the Atlantic. Being talked through the rest of the flight is plausible, even if the approach wasn't loaded. When you set up for an approach, it defaults to a CAT3 ILS, you actually have to intervene to do otherwise. (Most 744 pilots leave the automatics in until the last moment anyway. On long flights getting back into Heathrow at 7am, I was knackered. The autopilot wasn't disconnected until 200' usually).

And a manual landing? The 744 is actaully very easy to land - there is an auto rad alt call up. At the 50' call, you just start to close the thrust levers, at 30' you selct 2 degrees nose up. You don't have to kick off any drift because when the body gear touches down, the fusleage gets lined up with the runway (Boeing recommend not kicking off the drift on wet or contaminated runways anyway). And forgetting to flare? Well, if you do a real CAT3b autoland and you don't get the flare mode, you can't click out the autopilot and flare it manually because you can't see the runway at this stage. The procedure is to let it land without flaring, but Mr Boeing says this is OK and within normal limits anyway! Getting it to the stage where it could be landed would be the difficult part.

The Classic is harder to land BTW. It has to be flown all the way down to the ground.

[high-hopes]

Yeah I read that article in Pilot magazine this month too, and found it quite useless.

It seems to imply that the average PPL can only fly in a spamcan at 55 kts with perfect weather and no controlled airspace, let alone using any instruments apart from the airspeed indicator !

Not saying that we could all land a 747 at the first attempt, but we are not that thick either !

The bit that goes something like "Fly the approach 5 kts too slow and you'll smash into the ground, fly it too fast and you'll float for miles" left me a bit bemused considering it came from a training captain.
I am no airliner expert but it made me worry as it implies that everytime we're on final approach on one of the many commercial flights I take as a passenger, I am only 5 kts away from a tragic death !!
It also revealed the aerodynamic (and environmentally friendly) properties of the 747 which, on idle power, will float for miles if flown 10 kts too fast on approach. Who needs engines !!! Gordon Brown will appreciate that.

The other bit about "only young alert folks like Will Swinburn can do it" (don't quote me on that one, but that was the message) was priceless.
Sometimes what separates an experienced and competent PPL from a ME IR CPL is simply a lot of money invested in training !
Maybe it was an Oxford advert in disguise ???

[IO540]

A piece of rubbish like that could not have come from a real live training captain; a bar propper more likely. But, as I said, the UK mags will print more or less anything without anybody doing any checking. I stopped buying them regularly a few years ago.

[flexy]

More to the point - could a 747 Captain 400 or Classic land one of the worlds simplest aircraft, a flexwing microlight...Would be the complete opposite in terms of energy management and inertia! Also pitch works in the opposite way! I am more than happy to provide aircraft and talk down (from the back seat) if any 747 guys fancy a go! I dont even expect them to return the favour either! If there are any takers I will provide the story here.

[d192049d]

In th early 90's invested in 2 hours in a BA747-400 simulator at Cranebank.

Just to keep this short & sweet...the answer to "could a PPL land a 747" is a definate yes so long as he / she has somebody on the radio who can guide him through the key parts of the decent & approach and help manage the switchery.

In my case I had a 1st officer sat in the right hand seat. The wind was calm & vis was excellent with NOSIG. I handled the power and flew the approach to Kai Tak RWY 13 [Checker board]. Overbanked at the board and was too high on final but managed to touch down 1/3rd in and stop with max reverse and braking. Wasnt pretty but everyone would have walked away....

The other hour was spent in a Tristar 500 which was a completley different kettle of fish...managed to write off Hatton Cross and definatley would not have walked away!!

I think todays integrated systems clearly make this a less challenging excercise than in the days of analogue systems and a Flight Engineer.

M

[Floppy Link]

flexy - done it! It did take about 20 minutes to settle down. The trick was in realising that my hands were manipulating the whole wing, not just the controls. Biggest grin I've ever had. Jaw ached for days afterwards. Heartily recommend it...

IO540 you're quite correct he's not real live training captain (...any more), he's a retired BA 757 and 747 skipper (not sure about the trainer bit) and an experienced light aircraft pilot on lots of types who writes flight tests for the mag. Being retired he probably does prop up a bar now and again but would not fall into the derogatory "bar-propper" category you mentioned.

And thinking back on my first 757 sim detail I'm inclined to agree with him. Couldn't fly the thing properly, totally confused by the glass cockpit instrumentation and thinking "what am I doing here? I'll never manage this" - and that was after 3 weeks of groundschool, two years flying turboprops before that, a year of GA mixed rotary / light twin before that and 7 years RAF piloting before that. It's effin difficult. My ex-RN Sea King and Gazelle QHI and Display Pilot sim buddy felt the same.

Manually, on a good day, can't see why a visual landing could not be pulled off by somebody not type rated

Possibly, but we've got to get onto final in a suitable configuration first. Now a reasonably competent PPL/IR may have a stab at it, but I still maintain from my earlier post that the best way is to let the automatics do it all for you. Agree, like your TB20 it's impossible to work out just by looking at it and (like d192949d says) you'd need some help on the RT from Dan Winterland but you'll have much more of a chance than hand flying - especially at high level. Just one hostie walking from the rear galley to the front messes up the trim while hand flying. Autopilot takes care of it for you, freeing up all that capacity. Standard Operating Procedure at my old airline was "Have an emergency - put the autopilot in!" - It'll give our PPL time to take stock, look around, think of a plan and try to contact somebody for help.

Surely, you press the PTT button and speak to the ground station...

And right here is where it can all go horribly wrong. You can look for the PTT buttons on the console and glareshield but most PPLs would think of the controls. Trouble is there are quite a few buttons and switches on the yoke. On an Airbus the visible one is the sidestick priority button (I think it's called). On an Embraer yoke one of them starts the stopwatch! And on the 757/767 yoke the big one that looks like a PTT is actually the autopilot disconnect...clunk, you're hand flying, there's an effin loud autopilot disconnect warning with no volume control (how do you turn it off?). And you notice out of the corner of your eye a red warning on the previously blank centre screen...

Ignoring the sound you manage OK and decide to descend, retard the thrust levers a tad. They smoothly move back to where they were, the autothrottle is still in. You do it more forcefully and manage to hit the a/t disconnect with your thumb (you knew it was there all along didn't you?). More noise, another warning on the centre screen and as you pull off some power the pitch couple from the low slung engines causes the nose to pitch down a lot more than you are expecting...meantime you've noticed a speaker by your knee with a volume control in the centre. Turning the knob to the stops both ways several times has no effect and you don't understand why the warning keeps on blaring at you.

Looking out the window the pitch down might not even register 'cos unlike your PA28 there's no nose out the front to help with the visual cues for attitude. But let's say you're not in cloud, you do notice and you apply back pressure to keep the nose from dropping. It can be quite a pull. Your arms are getting tired, you decide to trim and look for the trim wheel. If its a 707,727 or 737 you're in luck...there it is, but you have to work out how to unstow the handle and then you'll need to wind wind wind wind for ages, while holding the yoke pressure with one hand. On the 757/767 you can't see one - just a sea of unfamiliar levers and buttons on the centre console.

Now lots of us like IO540 and high-hopes will have come across electric trim and will have sussed out the switches on the yoke. But there are two, side by side....which one do you use? The left one, the right one, both at once? Remember it trims the whole horizontal stabiliser, not just the elevators, so it's very sensitive. In the meantime the hosties are still upsetting your trim even more by trying to move around the cabin and reassure the passengers, the warning noises are about to be joined by the overspeed warning, the TCAS might be shouting "TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC" at you, those captions on the centre panel are starting to annoy you and you're becoming increasingly puzzled as to why you can't even raise Dan Winterland on the RT. You can hear yourself going out OK...trouble is it's on the intercom.

I'm sorry slim_slag but I believe a "mere PPL" (your words) would quite quickly be able to inadvertantly put themselves in a situation where they would ...crack under the pressure...

As a former 757/767 chap I would keep the autopilot in all the way for an autoland. That doesn't make me more Chuck Yaeger than a low time PPL or a PPL/IR with lots of experience. I just believe it's more sensible. Even if we do get to the point ready to do IO540's visual landing and THEN take the autopilot out, there are loads of gotchas - the pitch couple from the low slung engines, the 757's marked balloon on selecting Flap 20, general sponginess of controls compared with a light single etc etc.

BUT, like the swiss-cheese-holes-lining-up-break-the-accident-chain-thing-in-reverse, if

1) the PPL got into the flight deck in time
2) the PPL didn't inadvertantly disconnect the automatics
3) the PPL was able to call for help on the RT
4) ATC was able to rustle up an experienced pilot
5) the PPL was also an experienced flight simmer (or had one there) who had some idea of how the automatics functioned and then made a conscious decision to use them all the way to aircraft stopped on the runway.
6) etc
7) etc

then it is theoretically possible to save the day and walk away the hero. But, if one piece is missing, everybody dies.

Hand-flown with no help, I'd have to say no. High speed high altitude aerodynamics will probably get you faster than you can say "Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, this is your new Captain" - I've got to agree with Dan Winterland when he says ...If you're talking about a PPL sitting on the flightdeck and thinking he will click the autopilot out and have a go, it will likely end in disaster...

Apologies for rambling on...Good news is, the way automation is going, you'll soon have a choice of 2 buttons to push...and none of us will need a PPL to work out that it's the one that says "LAND" rather than the one that says "FLY"

[FlyEJF]

Hi,

I have been reading this post with intrigue since i have always wondered whether in the event of a horrible emergency I would be able to put a 747 on the ground. I very much doubt that a ppl without any type rating would be able to put the beast onto the deck safely without any sim experience , be it level D or PC based. I have been using MS flightsim with the PMDG 747-400 for about two years now and have just about come to terms with it and although the modelling/functionality is apparently very good for a relatively cheap pc based sim i expect that there a number of intricate details that are not modelled. I think Floppy Link is correct with regards to things like auto pilot and throttle disconnects etc.

If required i think after simming for around two years in the ms flightsim 2004 PMDG 747 I could programme the FMC or manually use the MCP to guide the plane down and eventually autoland. One thing that wouldn't be sure of is what happens once on the ground. I would know how to set the autobrake however, in the PMDG sim reverse thrust is brought in manually and i am not 100% sure that i would know how to bring this in. I have a fair idea but it would be trial and error.

I completely agree that this is not flying the aircraft by hand and i would say that it would be much safer bringing it in automatically.

I am currently 5 hours into my ppl and enjoying every minute of it, l but it's not the cessna 150 is not quite the 747-400 that i was hoping for. Still, you've got to learn the basics, right?

Ed

[DBChopper]

Floppy Link,

That is one of the best posts I have ever read on PPRuNe :ok:

Have you ever considered writing for one of the aviation magazines? If not, then can you, please? :D

Regards,

DBChopper

[slim_slag]

I'm sorry slim_slag but I believe a "mere PPL" (your words) would quite quickly be able to inadvertantly put themselves in a situation where they would ...crack under the pressureAnd I am sure you are correct that all sorts could go wrong, but I thought we had moved on to discuss the scenario where there was a 747 pilot on the radio telling PPL what to do. The suggestion was made that in that manufactured scenario a PPL wouldn't be able to cope, I simply think that is nonsense.

[BackPacker]

I bet that *any* 747 currently flying is only one mayday call on 121.5 away from another 747. How many of the things were produced, how many hours a day do these things operate on average, and what's the VHF line-of-sight on FL300? Without doing the math, I'm pretty sure I'd win the bet unless you specifically search for far-away places like Perth or so.

[GrassStrip]

Okay adding a slightly different twist - you (you being a qualified PPL) take a friend flying in your Cessna/Piper, your friend has never flown or been in one of these planes before – you go unserviceable so to speak - do you think your friend could land the plane at an airfield?
My guess is if they can find the transmit button - then maybe - if they are very lucky...

[airborne_artist]

My father and I won a charity raffle trip in the BA 744 sim at Cranebank - it must have been about 15 years ago.

We had a two hour trip, and by the end of it I was poling it into Kai Tak with the training captain in the LHS prompting me and following me through on the throttles. I had about 140 hours SEP at the time. LHR was much easier, but I 'm sure I didn't do a solo/un-assisted landing.

Based on that experience I don't think it would be possible for a PPL to do it even with prompting from the ground.

[Floppy Link]

slim_slag...
...then it is theoretically possible to save the day and walk away the hero...
so we agree! I suppose my point was that if the autopilot is disconnected, there is a high probability that you'll all die. It's just that there are a fair few ways to inadvertantly trip off the autopilot before you even get to talking on the radio...for the 757 I think I can remember at least 6 - and only one of them is placarded "DISENGAGE"
And now for some massive thread drift - Here's another question we once pondered....
"Could a police helicopter be landed in a survivable manner by the front observer (left hand seat) in the event of incapacitation of the (single) pilot in the right hand seat?"
bearing in mind that...
1) it's an Ec135 or other modern glass cockpit machine with sophisticated autopilot
2) One set of controls only - the front observer does have a joystick but all that does is control the camera!
so with only the autopilot controls, the collective lever between the seats and the ability to talk on the radio...we had a go. With a cheat sheet of what to do, what buttons to push and in what order, the regular observers could control the flight path of the aircraft and would probably have been able to fly a coupled ILS to get the aircraft to a crumpled heap on the runway of a major airport where the fire engines and ambulances are waiting and possibly survive....much better than a spiral death dive from 3000ft.

[172driver]

Okay adding a slightly different twist - you (you being a qualified PPL) take a friend flying in your Cessna/Piper, your friend has never flown or been in one of these planes before – you go unserviceable so to speak - do you think your friend could land the plane at an airfield?
My guess is if they can find the transmit button - then maybe - if they are very lucky...

GrasStrip, this has in fact happened several times, HOWEVER, AFAIK only with people who had at least some exposure to an airplane environment. A PPL in the cockpit of a 747 would have that. Doesn't mean he/she could land the a/c. I guess the biggest danger, as Floppy Link has pointed out, would be the inadvertent AP disconnect. Once past that, well, perhaps. Would love to try it in a sim (have landed jets in sims, but nothing near as heavy/complex), but most certainly NOT in the real world !!

[slim_slag]

Floppy Link,

What do these airplanes do if the pilots don't do anything after the cleared route is programmed in? Does it fly any clearance limit and hold? If you are cleared to the destination airport will it just shoot an approach or hold at the IAF, or something else altogether? If it's an N-reg I guess it needs the instruction manual to be on board, I suppose you could always get it out and look PTT button up in the index :)

[Floppy Link]

As far as I remember (somebody please correct me if I'm talking rubbish...)

If the route which has been programmed into the Flight Management Computer (FMC) includes the arrival at the destination (sometimes it doesn't - on several 767 trips back from the Indian Ocean our FMC got filled up and we got a "Route Full" message, so we had to delay putting in the arrival into Gatwick until a quiet point in the cruise when the route had freed up enough waypoints to give us space), and...

if the arrival at the destination includes a hold, or if the missed approach ends in a hold, and...

the route has been activated, and...

the autopilot is in Lateral navigation (LNAV) mode, then

the autopilot should fly the aircraft along the magenta line on the nav screen and enter any hold which it encounters. If you reach the end of the route without meeting a hold, the autopilot will go from LNAV mode to HDG HOLD mode and fly off into the distance on the last heading. Twiddling the heading knob has no effect - you need to press it in to activate HDG SEL mode and then you can drive it round using just finger and thumb.

(it would be just our luck for the aircraft to be on a radar heading when the PPL gets to the flight deck, then it won't hold or follow the route until you fiddle with the heading button)

In vertical terms, as you approach the point where the FMC has calculated you should start down, you'll get a message "RESET MCP ALT" message to remind you. If you dial in a lower altitude in the Mode Control Panel then the aircraft will start down by itself. If you don't then if I remember correctly the autopilot goes from Vertical Navigation (VNAV) to Altitude Hold (ALT HOLD).

In ALT HOLD you'll need to control speed using the MCP speed window, which in VNAV was blank. Trouble is, this opens in IAS and needs to be selected to MACH at high level using the wee button underneath it. If you don't the autothrust will maintain IAS and any changes in temperature outside (not uncommon) will change the local speed of sound and thus the Mach No. for our IAS. If we are high with a small margin between too slow and too fast (the aforementioned "coffin corner") then the automatics could either (less likely due to stick shakers, pushers etc) stall the aircraft (leading to a "Jet Upset") or more likely exceed Mach Crit (leading to "Mach tuck"), with all the attendant warnings, alarms and general doom.

Awww cr*p I've rambled on again. To answer your question...the automatics will follow the programmed route if the route is active and LNAV is engaged (unless [here we go again!] you were on a heading which diverged from the route, then if you press the LNAV button all that'll happen is a message saying "NOT ON INTERCEPT HEADING"). If there's an active hold in the programmed route the aircraft will enter and hold until the fuel runs out, if you let it.

For vertical profile the aircraft (Boeing) will happily fly the whole route at cruise level, overflying the runway down the centreline at (e.g) FL350. I did hear that an Airbus Flight Management and Guidance System (FMGS) has a different philosophy whereby the aircraft will start down automatically unless you select an altitude hold mode. But that could be total bolleaux, somebody else can advise.

The manuals you'll find in the "ship's library" behind the First Officers seat (Boeing). It would probably take too long to find the relevant page so....The PTT is on the forward side of the yoke (out of view) at the top of one of the horns and is a rocker switch - UP (spring loaded) - PTT on the radio, centre and DOWN (not spring loaded) for intercom. Plus one for each pilot on the centre console by the volume controls, plus one for each pilot on the glareshield as well, outboard of the MCP. Some older Boeings don't have the glareshield PTTs fitted.

I need my medical back soon, I'm spending far too much time at the keyboard! :\

[MrHorgy]

I did hear that an Airbus Flight Management and Guidance System (FMGS) has a different philosophy whereby the aircraft will start down automatically unless you select an altitude hold mode. But that could be total bolleaux, somebody else can advise.

That would depends what's in the ALT window. If you were lucky and came in at the right moment the crew may have already had the "descend when ready FLXXX" and you'd be ready, but do you not have to physically push it in to get descending? If not, you get a nice PFD message telling you to "DECELERATE".

Horgy

[chornedsnorkack]

OK, but Travolta is flying under US registration and US FAR Part 125.

Actually, what he does seems contrary to Part 125 as well.

Namely, Part 125 requires CPL qualifications from both captain AND copilot!

But outside USA?

I understand there is no Part 125 of Annex 6 Part II.

JAR has JAR-OPS Part 1, but no Part 2 nor Part 0.

What are the absolute minimum legal qualifications to fly a Learjet - two engine pressurized jet?

In USA, 2700 kg payload makes a line between Part 91 operations and Part 125 operations. What about Europe? Can a PPL with adequate training get type rated on 747 and fly it non-commercially, the same way as flying a Learjet?

Can a PPL be in command of a CPL? Especially concerning an owner pilot in command, whether of a Learjet or a 747?

[Clarence Oveur]

As Dan Winterland was alluding to in his previous post, a little knowledge can indeed be a very dangerous thing.

If I was a betting man, I would put my money on the person who has no idea of what to do in a 744 cockpit, rather than somebody who think they do.

[slim_slag]

Very interesting stuff Floppy Link, thanks for that. I guess to me it's a new language, one I don't really speak, so better for me to stay in the back with the gin. I suppose a bigger threat in this brave new world is the fighter pilot coming up to see why it's all gone quiet.

[chornedsnorkack]

What do these airplanes do if the pilots don't do anything after the cleared route is programmed in? Does it fly any clearance limit and hold? If you are cleared to the destination airport will it just shoot an approach or hold at the IAF, or something else altogether?

Recall what the 737-200 actually did.

Flew to Athens, then took to circling at a cruise altitude. When one engine quit due to fuel exhaustion, the plane did not fall off the sky immediately, but the door lock opened, so a PPL could get in.

How would your 747 or 767 act in stead of that 737?

[FlyEJF]

Please correct me if i'm wrong but i believe that when the 747 is coulped to the FMC via VNAV the aircraft is protected against overspeeds both in the clean and "dirty" (with flaps) configurations. The aircraft will not fly slower than the FMC calculated safe speed. This means that using VNAV the speed is limited in the approach by the flap setting since the aircraft will not reduce the speed lower than the speed calculated for the current flap setting. Again correct me if i'm wrong but i think that the flaps need to be manually selected and therefore if no flaps have been selected then the aircraft will be travelling very quickly compared to a normal approach.

Ed

[Dan Winterland]

That's pretty much it. The protections are in all vertical modes except VS which has none. However, there are none on the flap lever. If you select flaps 20 knots above limiting speed, they will move and you will have an overspeed. As with the gear. When slowing for configuring, I don't remeber using the FMC speeds. I alwats remember using selected speeds as you had far more control.

The Boeings will start a descent if Top of Descent is reached and a lower MCP altitude is selected. The FBW Airbus models will not, you have to select a lower alt, then push (for managed) or pull (for selected) the alt knob to make the thing go down. It only took me about twenty flights and about nineteen screaming dives to get that right when I started flying the thing!

A 'Route Full' message on a 747 is unlikely, it has much more memory. It depends on the company SOPs as to whether the approach is loaded at the planning stage. My company did as a matter of rule, because it gave you a better idea of the fule situation in the cruise. Mind you, a destination approach loaded at Heathrow may not be the same as the one on arrival in Hong Kong 13 hours later!

[777fly]

FlyEFJ: Sorry, but you ARE wrong about the speed/flap relationships on B747-400 ( and B777) In Vnav or G/S capture mode the aircraft will fly the selected speed regardless of the flap setting. Therefore you could get the aircraft to fly clean at a speeds well below a safe value. Its a long time since I flew the 747-400, but certainly on the B777 you will only get protection from a low speed condition when the autothrottles activate as the speed approaches the stick shaker speed. This would only happen if the autothrottle was, at least, in the armed mode and would keep the aircraft flying for the hopeful PPL.

With reference to earlier comments about the article in Pilot magazine, I have to support Bob Grimstead's ( the co-author) observations 100%. It is absolutely true that -5 kts into the flare on a B747 ( or any big jet) can lead to a severely heavy landing or a tailstrike, conversely +10kts means a huge amount of extra energy to dissipate. The B747 has a massive wing and floats beautifully in ground effect. You cannot begin to get rid of all that energy until the aircraft is on the ground and spoilers and brakes can do their job.It WILL float for half the runway if you let it.
I was a training captain for many years in Big Airways in the days when it was possible to let friends and the public have a go at flying a B747 or B777 simulator. Private pilot or microsoft expert or not, even with a talk down, none succeeded in getting the aircraft anywhere near a survivable landing on a runway despite several attempts. A PPL might get the B747 into the semblance of a flare, but the landing would either be dangerously fast or slow, the flare too high or too late and almost certainly into the scenery rather than on the runway. The chances are about 1 in a 100 of getting it right. You would be sensationally lucky if you did. At best you could prevent an uncontrolled descent from altitude and you might enable a few people to survive the controlled crash.

[Dan Winterland]

Yes 777, you're right about selected speed. The reason why I couldn't rmember flying managed speed during decceleration was because it doesn't do it. The Airbus does once the approach has been activated. After 1500 hours on the thing, I still forget to do it!

[slim_slag]

So (talking 747-400), if the whole route including the approach is programmed in early enough, and ATC clears the way, the computer will put you on the ground on a runway? But you might be too fast as the flaps are manually controlled? Is that correct? Does it brake itself?

Remember first trip on a 744 was coming back to LHR from SIN during the first gulf war and did that take a long route back, amazing how long those things can stay in the air. Managed to get invite onto the flight deck and was amazed how such a small room can control such a mammoth beast. The temptation to start clicking all those switches was so strong had to sit on my hands. Wouldn't know where to start. Captain came on after landing to say the whole approach was controlled by ATC, which I still don't fully understand, but sounded impressive. That was over 15 years ago.

[FlyEJF]

777 thanks for the info.

So if you're approaching the end of the descent and are currently at 280kts and you are in LNAV, VNAV and A/T is engaged and the speed at the next waypoint is set to 180kts on the legs page of the FMC for example, then would the aircraft slow down to 180kts regardless of flap setting?

Thanks

Ed

[JamesT73J]

So if you're approaching the end of the descent and are currently at 280kts and you are in LNAV, VNAV and A/T is engaged and the speed at the next waypoint is set to 180kts on the legs page of the FMC for example, then would the aircraft slow down to 180kts regardless of flap setting?
Not a clue but from reading perhaps the FMC treats flap schedule speeds like any other speed restriction; I'd be surprised if there wasn't some kind of speed protection in there, or a deliberate method of keeping the pilot in the loop (like the 'reset MCP alt' on the 737 so the thing doesn't just descend all by itself).
To answer the question, from my student-pilot perspective, I think the answer is no. Firstly, I suspect the information overload would be absolutely overwhelming. 'Stick and rudder' flight, Krypton-Factor style, is one thing. Yes you could possible fudge an approach if you had some numbers and a bit of luck - but a correctly configured and situated approach isn't what we're talking about. My opinion is that you'd struggle with everything beyond sitting down.

How would you know what status the aircraft's automatics were in?
How would you even start to describe these in such a way a trained person would not make incorrect assumptions?
How would you communicate? I don't even know where the transmit button is on a heavy - I'm guessing the yoke?
A trained crew's workload gets heavier the closer they get to the airport - how would an untrained person and an a trained individual on the ground work together?

I spend plenty of time playing about with some realistic heavy metal in FS9, but that means nothing. Years before I sat in a Cessna, I was playing flight sims on a computer, and I can honestly say I felt the 'experience' simply didn't translate that well to a real environment. You can't simulate sensory overload and life-or-death pressure.
James

[Floppy Link]

...if the whole route including the approach is programmed in early enough, and ATC clears the way, the computer will put you on the ground on a runway?...

not really, there's quite a bit of button pressing required in the later stages to get the aircraft to perform an autoland. It won't just go ahead and do it itself if both pilots are u/s.

[falconfreak]

The whole question is akin to "how long is a piece of string". The experience level of PPL's is so diverse. A good PPL with good aptitude should have no problem handling a 747 after a short period of time. However, being able to manipulate FMS's and the other automated systems would probably take a whole lot longer. If a successful landing is one in which there was no loss of life, in manual configuration it would be highly possible with the above reservations.:ok:

[IO540]

Having read the explanations here, I still don't see why a competent non 747 type rated (I am avoiding the term "PPL" because it covers such a vast spectrum) private pilot should not be able to hand fly a 747.

People suggest it will be all over the place but most spamcans are all over the place anyway, and the Tomahawk is much worse still. I know about the "coffin corner" but if you can find a way to disconnect the auto throttle then you can slow down, no? Anyway, at say 250-300kt the thing should be perfectly hand flyable.

[G-Dawg]

I'm sorry, there's just no way a ppl could hand fly a 747, or any other jet airliner for that matter, from cruise to landing. I posed this question to a captain i was flying with just 2 days ago after reading this post and we discussed it for a while and even talked about the whole disconnection of the a/p accidentaly and actually if this happened it wouldn't be a massive problem initally, and to prove it we disconnected the a/p in the cruise an no great shakes, a ppl would be more than capable of flying the A/H straight and level with the auto throttles taking care of the speed, but that would be it, it's just to far removed from a light aircraft with everything ahppening 10 times as quick...things would go very wrong very quickly...as stated in most of the above posts, keep in the a/p and auto land would be the best bet, even we would do this if we found ourselves on our own, god forbid...

[H Ferguson]

I'm sorry, there's just no way a ppl could hand fly a 747, or any other jet airliner for that matter,


hmm, i just wondering how the four hi-jackers managed to fly jetliners on 9/11.

o.k. they didn't land but they did manage to fly them into the twin towers and the pentagon.

[IO540]

it's just to far removed from a light aircraft with everything ahppening 10 times as quick
It's that sort of statement which makes me wonder... I never knew a 747 did 1000-2000kt. If it can, no wonder it needs the autopilot!

I'd say the 9/11 hijackers flew pretty accurately. Not bad for some sim time, and zero currency on type.

What we need is a contribution from a 747 pilot who also flies reasonable private planes (not powered parachutes).

[shaun ryder]

Look guys, you are just gonna have to start believing what the majority of the jet pilots who posted are saying. Flying any airliner whether it be a 50 seat regional jet to a 500 seater heavy has little in common with a light aircraft. I remember thinking 'piece of cake' I have flown high performance twins/ turbo singles etc. I was wrong, it was'nt a piece of cake at all, its an entirely different experience. It takes quite alot of time to get used to the differences. Some of you mention how the speeds involved are comparable to a jet. Yes maybe you can get a 200kt groundspeed in your piston single, so what? Yesterday I saw a steady groundspeed of 560kts, thats almost 3 times your brief flirt at an unlikely 200!! How does this compare? Ok that was a bit cheap, but I could'nt resist making the comparison :O ! Controlling the flight path of your piston performer may require a certain degree of skill no doubt, but regretfully, applying those skills in an unfamiliar environment requiring 2 pilots is gonna leave you more than short!:{

[shaun ryder]

H Ferguson, do you really still believe that they flew a 757 into the Pentagon?

[IO540]

Shaun - the reason I bang on about this "comparison" is that it isn't valid.

I might fly in the terminal area at 200+kt GS (I actually have a photo of my KMD550 showing 211kt - PM me with your email address if you don't believe me) but that's because there is nothing to it, and ATC like it at big airports.

But one would not be flying an ILS at 500kt. One would not be anywhere near 500kt anywhere near anywhere where one might try to land.

The reason people fly spamcans flat out all the way to short final is because most of the things can't do much more than ~100kt no matter what. In a 150kt plane you have to slow down a bit; well maybe down to 130kt if coming into Stapleford ;) In a 747 you would slow down a LOT; down to say 250kt.

What I would like to know is exactly what makes a 747 not possible to hand fly at 250kt.

[Dan Winterland]

Quote IO540: What we need is a contribution from a 747 pilot who also flies reasonable private planes (not powered parachutes).

You have had it. I have 747 2/3/400 and FI ratings. And other Boeing pilots have contributed. In our opinions, anone getting a 747-400 (400 only, it is several professional pilot's view that the 2/300 would be too difficult) on the ground would only be achieved if the automatics were left in and the flight deck occupant was carefully talked down. Holding a PPL would probably lead that person into a false sense of security and a belief he could hand fly the thing - the opinion of the professionals is that this would be disasterous.

Sure a PPL could probably hand fly it at 250 knots. It may not be accurate but it would be flying. But what then? Would he have the ability or the capacity to get it into a position where he could safely land it? On VFR approach in CAVOK conditions, he may be lucky enough to line up on finals, but getting it into a position at 200' on a 3 degree glidepath in the landing configuration at something close to VAT - now we're starting to talk very lucky indeed.

In answer to other questions:

How would you know the automatics are in? If it's still flying when you get on the flight deck, they're in!

Where's the transmit button? It's on the yolk. But it's not the first button you see, its on the front and the one you see first? Well, - that one's the autopilot disconnect!!!!!! There are up to two others depending on the customers specification, but they won't necessarily be obvious. If the occupant has seen the 'Dukes of Hazard' and remembers seeing Boss Hog pick up the hand mic to speak to someone on the radio, he will instinctively use the hand mic. This should work and prevent the disasterous autopilot disconnection.

How do you slow down? The Boeing does not slow down on FMC speeds alone (the Airbus will, provided the approach has been activated). You have to interrupt with speeds selections on the autopilot.

And could a non rated pilot do this? If the flight deck occupant follows instructions carefully, yes. Refer to my rather long post about talking Winterland junior down.

[n5296s]

I can't help feeling this is really a "how long is a piece of string". Obviously a PPL can, with a bit of training, fly a 747 successfully. The proof is that all 747captains fit this profile (for a suitable value of "a bit", of course). At least in the US, every flying career starts with a PPL. Can a 60-hr newly-minted PPL do it, completely unprepared and untrained? Common sense (and a bunch of 747 captains here) say not. So what really is the question? I thought I'd chime in with my own experience, fwiw.

Of my ~1013 hours as of today, 1011 are in single-engine spam-cans of one kind or another - about half in my TR182, ~100 in the Pitts, ~200 in 172s, and the rest in various things. I also have 1.3 hrs in an L39 and 0.5 hrs in a B-25 (the WWII bomber). Both of the latter were a piece of cake to fly, including landing. Of course I was with an instructor in both cases. It took a few minutes to get the feel of it but no more than any other type - MUCH easier than the Pitts, which still gives me a few seconds of latent terror on every landing. Given an hour or so to fly the thing round, get a feel for the handling, and figure out where everything is, I wouldn't worry about landing anything up to B-25 size. (Well, yes, I would worry, but I think it could be done). How different is a 747? For sure the complexity of the systems is at a whole 'nother level. Maybe, as someone suggested, it would run out of fuel in the right places while our putative 1000 hr PPL was having fun with airwork, due to lack of understanding of the fuel systems. I'd guess that a 747 is reasonably stable to fly (compared, say, to a 172 or indeed the Pitts)? So if you didn't lose it to PIO in the first couple of minutes, getting TO an airport is probably doable. What remains is to do a reasonable job of flying the glideslope and managing the engines.

Would be fun to try in a proper sim, anyway. (I never have got the hang of PC flight sims, I'd much rather land the Pitts for real than try to get a 172 on an Edwards-sized runway in MSFS).

n5296s

[IO540]

Would be fun to try in a proper sim, anyway

It is done routinely in PC sims, and they are generally not that bad.

Depends on how many hours you have on the sim, I suppose. Many "kids" these days have hundreds or even thousands of hours on sims, and many know the systems pretty well.

[slim_slag]

Put most single engine PPLs in a light piston twin for the first time and leave then alone, and there is a good chance you will not make the runway or if you do, the nose wheel will end up inside the airframe. In fact, I'd say most PPLs would stuff up landing a heavier single like a PA28-236 the first time if they had never flown one before.

Why the heck should a single engine piston pilot be able to land a massive turbine airplane like a 747 manually the first time they had seen it, which is the whole scenario here? I reckon we are seeing a testosterone thing, not good in pilots, methinks.

[falconfreak]

Maybe you should read the original post again. There was no mention of single engine, only the question of PPL.
Many years ago I had the fortunate opportunity to have a go in a 747-400 sim, this was when I was a PPL with around 2,000 hrs SE&ME. Although the "flight" had some of the characteristics of a drunken whale, I managed several circuits and landings on various runways at JFK, a visual into Kai Tak and a landing in Sonderstrom Fjord. I neither crashed or bent the aircraft, and, a friend had the same experience. This was achieved with a highly competent 747 captain who only gave preflight advice and gave no assistance during the flight except for nav guidance. The understanding was that the sim would be frozen if the flight looked in jeopardy as to crash a sim of that caliber can be dangerous and expensive.

[slim_slag]

The thread moved on falconfreak. And a hearty 'well done' from me, however if I knew the pilots were dead and you were up front hand flying the thing I wouldn't be drinking the duty free gin, I'd be injecting it :)

[falconfreak]

And regreting it no doubt on our safe return to terra firma, if you read between the lines my freind, my life, as many, has moved on now and I have had the pleasure to bring a few PPL's into the jet world with no bad experiences. A PPL is a pilot, the only restriction being hire and reward not competance.

[slim_slag]

I haven't said anything about PPL competance, only experience in type. Currency if you like. You don't need to read between the lines in my post, what I said is perfectly clear.

[falconfreak]

You Said:
Why the heck should a single engine piston pilot be able to land a massive turbine airplane like a 747 manually the first time they had seen it, which is the whole scenario here? I reckon we are seeing a testosterone thing, not good in pilots, methinks.

I am only posing the question, why the heck should they not be able to? Having not flown a piston aircraft for about 10 years, I am more apprehensive about jumping into a single than a new type of jet. Anyway bored now, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, safe flying.:ok:

[slim_slag]

I am only posing the question, why the heck should they not be able to?I don't see any such question in your earlier post.

It's all to do with currency and experience in type. I am sure a PPL could learn to fly a transport jet because you don't need a CPL to get the type rating. In the States there were (haven't looked today) places where for around $10k you would get your 737 TR, including time in the actual jet, and all they wanted was an IR. If you had 1500 hours they would also give you an ATP.

Maybe 10 years ago a 747 type rated first officer in a reputable major airline nearly put a 747 into a hillside outside san francisco. It transpired that his currency was severly lacking because 747 pilots don't actually fly the plane very often. This is not a criticism of the pilot, it is a function of long haul jet travel, and what was understood at the time.

Currency is what matters. If the PPL/CPL/ATP/Astronaut has no currency in type he is going to find it harder to manually fly a plane, and I am going to hit the gin.

[chornedsnorkack]

How would you know the automatics are in? If it's still flying when you get on the flight deck, they're in!

There was a Tristar whose crew accidentally switched off autopilot and did not notice - the plane entered a slow descent and eventually flew into a swamp. Can this happen with a 747?

Where's the transmit button? It's on the yolk. But it's not the first button you see, its on the front and the one you see first? Well, - that one's the autopilot disconnect!!!!!! There are up to two others depending on the customers specification, but they won't necessarily be obvious.

So, not all 747-400 cockpits are identical anyway... If you were to try and fly a plane where you are rated and current on the type, but unfamiliar with the airline (as, say, a passenger on industry discount) and neither of the pilots is in condition to give any briefing about airline and frame specifics, can you fly such a plane?

[Floppy Link]

What we need is a contribution from a 747 pilot who also flies reasonable private planes (not powered parachutes)

We've had it on page one, trouble is you didn't listen...:ugh:

...A piece of rubbish like that could not have come from a real live training captain; a bar propper more likely...

edit:oops sorry, just seen that Dan Winterland has made much the same point.
p.s. what was the powered parachutes comment about?:confused:

[Sky Wave]

I completely agree with Dan Winterland, there would be no problem talking somebody through an autoland. I don't think that any PPL could just sit in a 747, kick out the autopilot and successfully manage to land it unless they’ve flown larger things in a previous life (RAF etc). The inertia and the pitch power couple would probably lead to it being over-controlled, completely unstable they’d most likely miss the runway and the speed control would probably be all over the place as their scan is unlikely to be quick enough in an unfamiliar aircraft.

Secondly if you were in an unfamiliar place would you know ILS frequencies or have any idea where you are and which airfields are suitable? What about high terrain? I think you'd need to establish comms in order to get some idea of which way to go.

Now cabin crew can access the cockpit in an emergency without the need for a crash axe, and the chances are they would have been showed how to select 121.5 on the radio and make a call. With a type rated pilot talking to the cabin crew member I feel certain that the aircraft could be configured for an autoland as Dan has shown. Personally I’d just get them to use heading select and level change to get them to the platform altitude on a very very long final, then tune the NAV boxes, put in the VREF (or just grab some figures from the QRH and forget the FMC), configure the aircraft for an autoland and once on the ground get them to shut down the engines.

If you had a flight simmer who has spent sufficient time with PMDG 747 or PS1.3 then they would have very little difficulty setting up the aircraft for an autoland once the cabin crew had got them into the cockpit and got the communications established. It would probably be easier to talk someone down who knew their way around FMC, MCP, ND and PFD rather than trying to get the information out of cabin crew who wouldn’t know where to look. I speak from experience on the subject of flight simmers as I used PMDG's 737 prior to getting type rated on the NG and it taught me my way around the FMC, MCP, ND enough to do an autoland, similarly I'd used PSS's A320 add-on prior to doing my MCC in the A320 and I could also set that up for an autoland prior to setting foot in the real sim.

So once I’d got my PPL and prior to getting my fATPL I reckon I could have done an autoland on a 737NG, 747-400 and the FBW Airbus family IF somebody had pointed me towards the airfield and giving me the frequencies
Could I have worked out how to use the radio? Probably but there are a lot of buttons on the ACP. I think if I’d of disengaged the autopilot trying to find the PTT I would have known that the way out was to push one of the CMD / AP buttons.
Could I have hand flown them to a successful landing?? Not a chance, I’m sure we’d have ended up in a burning heap.

[GonTek]

Interesting thread.

But in reality is any atc going to let you anywhere near to a runway.....?

[MrHorgy]

300 PAX on board, someone who MIGHT be able to land it, why would an ATC not let it be attempted, what other options are there?

Horgy

[tom775257]

Part of my line training was flying a normal line flight which at some point the captain 'dies.' This was an A320. I was type rated with some experience on type and it still was bloody hard work flying single crew (one of the requirements to be signed off before my first route check). Also worth noting that it is a bit different flying with 160pax single crew for real than in the sim. BTW The captain was still monitoring obviously however if he had to say anything you would fail.

I certainly wouldn't fancy flying a jet type I am not rated on single crew - I could probably get away with it on another Airbus but Boeing would be tricky for me I think (only prob 25 hours level D on 73/75 sims). Let us hope this never happens for real.

Certainly a talked-through autoland would be the way to go.

Tom.

[Gipsy Queen]

This fanciful sort of speculation has been going on for years; I remember having a discussion on the possibilities of a passenger landing a Lockheed Lodestar - an aircraft several orders of magnitude simpler than a 747 - and concluding that a satisfactory return to earth would be unlikely.

The "landing" is never fully explained. Is this just a touchdown from short finals or a descent to altitude then further descent to intercept a localiser and all that follows? In any event, it is all academic.

First of all, the PPL has to get into the seat. This may sound silly but whilst the Seven Four is a very large aircraft, its cockpit isn't - at least, not widthwise and operating the mechanics just to get seated would be the first hurdle.

This Walter Mitty-type PPL probably has a few hours in something like a C172 or PA28 and is accustomed to almost instantaneous response from the flight controls. I submit that such a person would be lucky indeed (without the benefit of a few hours practice) to achieve something as straightforward as maintaining height and direction in a 747 where control response is vastly different, particularly in amplitude and timing and I suspect the aircraft is going to get away from our hero who is going to fall behind the curve very quickly.

Even with autopilot, RNAV, VNAV, CAT 111, and all the bells and whistles as well as cockpit assistance from another PPL and ground talk-down he would never manage it. "Speed brakes armed". Speed brake? If you don't agree, just consider height perception for starters. Normally his backside is three or four feet from the ground (when in the cockpit that is!); in the 747 he is on the fourth floor so rounding out for the flair is going to be done at minus fifty feet . . . OK, so someone is feeding him the radio altimeter but he just is not going to do it; something he realises quite early on but he has to stick with it because the only option is a go-around which will get him into even deeper trouble as he has to undo most of which he has just done and in pretty short order. And then there's turbine engine management . . . And if it's a glass cockpit . . . need I go on?

But it's still good Boys' Own stuff!

[Dan Winterland]

The Lodestar is a very different sort of aircraft. Third generation jets with glass cockpits and full automatics are very easy to fly. That's why the automatics are there - to make them easier.

And there's no need for any explanation. if the PPL (or flight attendant, or passenger) has pressed the right buttons to get it on the centreline and then armed the approach, it will fly the ILS. They don't need to know anything about how or why it has done it.

Arming the speedbrake? "See that large lever with Speedbrake written on it next to your right knee? Yes? Good! Well, pull it up and move it back until it's in line with the ARM marking. See that knob marked Autobrake about 18 inches behind the Speedbrake lever. Good! Turn it to the number three setting".

And with CAT3, there's no need to flare. It defaults to CAT3 - you actually have to intervene to stop it landing itself. It will autoland, and probably do a better job than if the crew were still conscious. And if you don't flare it? No matter. It just takes a long time to re-stow 450 oxygen masks!

[TowerDog]

I was a training captain for many years in Big Airways in the days when it was possible to let friends and the public have a go at flying a B747 or B777 simulator. Private pilot or microsoft expert or not, even with a talk down, none succeeded in getting the aircraft anywhere near a survivable landing on a runway despite several attempts. A PPL might get the B747 into the semblance of a flare, but the landing would either be dangerously fast or slow, the flare too high or too late and almost certainly into the scenery rather than on the runway. The chances are about 1 in a 100 of getting it right. You would be sensationally lucky if you did. At best you could prevent an uncontrolled descent from altitude and you might enable a few people to survive the controlled crash.


As a training captain on the classic I have seen some screwed up attempts by ATP pilots to land the plane as well.

It is not a difficult bird to fly, it just takes some practice.

As for the topic of this thread: Back in January I was in the B-747-200 simulator in MIA flying the right seat.
In the left seat we put a PPL with about 400 hours of Cessna time.
He was to do a take-off, a few steep turns, some other airborne maneuvers, then come back and land, all night and VMC.

Don't remember if the chap had an instrument rating or not.
At any rate, he was able to do most of the maneuvering somewhat within some limits, but it took non-stop talking on my part.
What surprised him was the stick forces when out of trim and the constant need for trimming the stab.

He was able to do a radar vectored approach to final, then some sort of a landing when talked to all the way down.

If he was on his own, it would perhaps have lasted 2 to 4 minuttes before over-controlling with total loss of control and structural failure.

He was not a bad pilot, even Chuck Yeager would have screwed the pooch in that scenario..Too much to learn in too little time.

[flexy]

Right thats it then - I am happy to pay for the sim and have a go at it if somebody who can fly a 747 wants to talk me through it! Lets go otherwise we will be at this for ever!

[MrHorgy]

I'll second that if you want to go halves, but then I have about 1000 hours MSFS time on the 767 and the 320!

Horgy

[Floppy Link]

...only if you agree for a hit man to stand behind you with a silenced pistol. Screw up and you're dead. Need to make it realistic, don't we :uhoh:

[MrHorgy]

Sounds like your volunteering FL! :ok:

Horgy

[S-Works]

I did a human factors experiment last year in the 747 sim and managed to land it 5/5 approaches. The Instrument apps were much easier than the VFR ones for some reason. Trim was a nightmare. But I did bring it down on the runway without problem or a crash!

To be fair my co-pilot pooched all of his up, flared to low or just missed the runway. I had about 2000hrs at the time and he had about 200.

I realise the type rated sky gods want us to believe that only superhumans can fly an airliner. Not detracting from the fact to operate one working at public transports standards is no mean feat but it is still just an aircraft....

[Captain Smithy]

Aaah, I'll stick to the PA-38 for the time being, thanks. :cool:

[Gipsy Queen]

Dan Winterland - you are, of course, quite correct. Given sufficient time/fuel, anyone capable of identifying/pushing a button/pulling a lever could get the a/c on the ground in absolute safety. The reference to the Lodestar was just me giving my age away; this scenario has been discussed for as long as I can remember.

My observations stemmed from the original thread which asked "Could a PPL fly a 747?". I took that to mean "could he hand-fly the machine?" In my view the answer has to be an emphatic "no". As I mentioned in the earlier post, just basic flight control probably will be beyond him. An input will not provide the response expected from his light aircraft background so a bit more is applied. Still not much response so give it a bit more; now things start to happen but seemingly too slowly. Begin to take off the bank but, again, not much happens. Give it quite a bit more because we have passed the heading and are rolling too far to the left. We need more opposite control still and so we are on the way to Tower Dog's over-control regime. Easily done. Remember chasing the instruments when learning recovery from unusual attitudes? ;)

[OpenCirrus619]

This always seems to get people exited...

My view is that "It depends on the PPL". Boeing / Airbus drivers are not Gods - they have, however, a great deal of instruction and experience that your average PPL does not have.

On the other hand I would not bet on the majority of ATPLs being able to land a Tiger Moth, or even my glider, without breaking the aeroplane and, likely, themselves.

"Horses for Courses" as the saying goes :ok:

OC619

P.S. When I added an airline captain to my glider insurance a couple of years ago my broker suggested we just include his gliding time - apparently mentioning that the airline bit would, probably, increase the premium. :sad:

[Dan Winterland]

I think we are reaching a conclusion. The original question was answered, but the inevitable thread creep got round to the 'Airport 77' scenario of could Karen Black have landed the thing had the guy not got in the cockpit via the helicopter?

I think we're agreed that if the guy (or gal) in the seat pushed buttons on command from someone they have raised on the radio, then yes they could probably do it. But if someone with a bit of flying experience wanted to have a go at being the hero, the outcome would probably be different.

I'll take you up on your bet Open Cirrus! Mind you, I do have over a thousand taildragger hours (mostly De Havilland) and over 600 gliding hours. And I've flown an Open Cirrus. Lovely Machine!

[Contacttower]

After having read the article in Pilot Magazine I phoned up Virtual Aviation to ask their opinion on whether a PPL could land a 747-400 without help and they said that he might have a chance. Considering how realistic (so much so that real FMC manuals can be used to programme the simulations) the latest FSX add-ons from PMDG and Level D are I think that actually a PPL might be able to.

[GonTek]

I see your point Mr Horgy...
But just being negative and a tad realistic,pointing you out to sea and letting you run out of fuel makes less mess.
I have been lucky enough to fly a 737 sim and if I do say myself with pride, managed an ILS into Manchester,perfect glideslope until about 10 feet and LOC was 2/3 deg from center, I do have a PPL so there was a little prior knowledge.
It is still an emotive and thought provoking thread and there are many people sitting reading this and wishing that the next time they fly a hostie is going to come out of the flight deck screaming the immortal words " can anybody fly a plane "

[Gipsy Queen]

Gon Tek,

My hand shall be raised only if it is a Lodestar. That gets me nicely off the hook as I can't imagine that there are any of these still aloft, particularly ones with trolley dollies. My head shall be deeply buried in a book should the door open on a Seven Four . . :8

[slim_slag]

BA currently offering 1 hr in one of their 737 simulators in London for £299, for those of you who are interested. Better value for money than some of their tickets :)

[IRRenewal]

Can't be bothered to read the whole thread, but..........

For the last few years I have been conducting quite a number of 'trial lessons' on B737 sims (classic and NG). My observations are:
I have yet to meet a PPL without prior 737 knowledge who can either fly or land the thing without significant input from me.

I have met many MS flight simmers who have never piloted an aircraft themselves who can operate the automatics and set up an autoland without my help.

On larger aircraft, system knowledge is vital. If you don't know where to find the correct switch, it isn't going to do what you want it to do.

I fly the 737, but am in no doubt I wouldn't have a clue how to fly and/or operate an airbus without the appropriate training.

Sorry to spoil your day.

Ps: I can land a Tiger Moth. What an appalling handling.......

[Dan Winterland]

Don't feel bad. I've had the appropriate training and still have no idea how the Airbus operates! :\

[sailing]

"Ps: I can land a Tiger Moth. What an appalling handling......."

How dare you, sir!!!

Did you notice that the footrests affect the turn coordination?:)