Jetconnect Pilot shortage [Archive]

WLGHilton

12th May 2007, 07:31

Pilot shortage there is, though it is only partially to blame in this case. However what mainline really need to send over is some decent managers rather than pilots. The JC crewing levels, recruitment and crew training have been grossly mismanged by what can only be described as amateurs. The place is a mess and getting worse. There is a pilot shortage which generally means it is not a good time to start shafting your pilots as they have just announced. Great timing, now the exodus truly begins.

#1AHRS

12th May 2007, 22:43

Quote (TE): "Yep, thats probably why they left and the company needs to pay way more for the temp crews."
It has been a while since I have been here but since this one affects me, here goes. Tank Engine you have a point that raises other issues as well. The conditions at Jetconnect are not that bad though there are better around. However most of those that have bailed are ex AN guys who had their eyes over the western horizon and with recent movement over there, it is only natural for them to want to move back home. That was, and still is easy to predict. Your comment also raises the question about expense and bearing in mind the requirement for 100 hours line training in NZ and that the Australian copilots will need to have their endorsements and I/R upgraded to "command" status, I imagine it could be a costly exercise to bring in mainline crews. Unless the intention is for them to operate outside of NZ airspace. Experience is only part of the equation when producing a suitable company pilot with other factors such as training playing a large part in the end product. Jetconnect does have a core of committed and experienced pilots that, by any world standard, are capable of doing the job. New Zealand and Australian GA and commuters also have well motivated and qualified people out there who are also capable of recruiting into positions with Jetconnect. Wouldn't it be better for the company to spend their money and resources on those who are prepared to or have already placed an investment of time in Jetconnect rather than spending it on mainline pilots who will have a nice well paid holiday in NZ and then return to Aussie.

I'm Driving

12th May 2007, 22:58

#1AHRS
Every First Officer in Qantas has a "Command rating" on there respective aircraft. I don't know what the 100Hrs is all about. Is that some NZ regulation? I don't think it will cost QF a cent. Remember, QF crews were doing this flying before Jetconnect existed.

#1AHRS

12th May 2007, 23:08

CAR part 121 requires a minimum of 100 hours line training.

distracted cockroach

13th May 2007, 03:14

It's not $90K for a captain, more like $115-120 plus allowances. Maybe someone actually working there can confirm?
Believe the $90k figure was close to what it was when they started though.

speeeedy

13th May 2007, 04:19

Mailine crews all have Command endorsements with CIR's and an aussie ATPL. That is all they need.

Also, the conditions in JC are the worst for 737 pilots in the western world, yet #1AHRS seems to think they are good, interesting....

Thump & Go

13th May 2007, 04:19

Captain $115k + Allowances + Incentive pay + $15k Annual "retention" bonus
Captain (Rotorua/Queenstown qualified) $120 + above.
F/O (<500hrs B737) $66k + Allowances + incentive pay + $9k "retention" bonus.
F/O (>500hrs B737) $72k + above.

an3_bolt

13th May 2007, 10:58

....Stockholme Syndrome.....:ugh: :ugh:

Metro man

13th May 2007, 13:06

Captains pay before tax therefore is within a couple of thousand of that of an F/O on similar equipment in Asia, after tax he's well behind.

Is the financial penalty of enjoying the lifestyle at home worth it ?

KRUSTY 34

13th May 2007, 13:33

Thump & Go,

If those are the figures.....

Jeeezzzuusss.........!

haughtney1

13th May 2007, 20:13

Kiwi Labours Laws are weak, lets just exploit it

Its got nothing to do with weak labour laws........come to the UK Phantom, the labour laws are biased in FAVOUR of the employer, and yet on a like for like basis, UK pilots are some of the highest paid and benefited pilots anywhere.
No, this is all to do with guys accepting whats offered, and paying for type-ratings etc...
Nothing more:=

WLGHilton

13th May 2007, 21:49

Yes conditions are bad there but they have had them by the balls. NZ is a small market, with labour laws weighted to the employer and if you arn't with Air NZ then the best on offer is Jetconnect, PB or GA. It's a job to say the best. What do they expect? Pilots will leave at short notice if they don't think they have a fair deal. This latest shafting of DE captains is done under the guise of 'lack of crew experience'. In the wake of a recent incident in Queenstown where Qantas came the closest it ever could to having a red tail sticking out of a mountain, this doesn't wash.

The issue is not one of experience but of an old boys attitude and a lack of due care that went across there from AN.
Bets are on that another couple of GT's mates will slip in through the back door, into top positions after failing to make it out there in the big wide world. I've personally flown the nest like many others because of T&C and feel sorry for those remaining at this time. Good luck. I believe that with a bit of serious management tweaking the airline could be worthy of employment. Those mainline crews that take contracts there may see themselves as saviours but the reality is that those who remain there will see you as nothing better than salt rubbed into an already very open wound. Like the old finger in the dyke story, the real issues will not be fixed.

phantom menace

13th May 2007, 22:55

H1,

Okay, let me spin this one around...why do UK companies have better T&C's ...wouldn't have anything to do with a wee shortage would it. yes, I have flown in the UK, when there was a surplus of pilots after Air Europe's demise.....
JCL have relied on a surplus of Pilots in NZ/OZ, who would've donated their right testy to fly a B733. Times are a changing.

haughtney1

13th May 2007, 23:13

Okay, let me spin this one around...why do UK companies have better T&C's ...wouldn't have anything to do with a wee shortage would it.
Actually in the last 12 months I would agree with you, but not historically, and if you were around Air Europe, you will also remember Dan Air, plus a few more besides.......
But those airlines tipping over didn't effect T&C's in any perceptible sense, all they did was create short-term competition for fewer jobs, for a time...
Look at the companies with the best T&C's in the UK industry, and there is a direct correlation between BALPA(British Airline Pilots Association) membership number..and the companies concerned.
BA.......around 80% membership
Virgin...around 85% membership
Thomsonfly....close to 90%
First Choice (ex Air 2000)...I'm told over 75% membership
Easyjet......90-95%
Monarch (my employer)...currently around 80%..and most of us are voting for industrial action to improve our T & C's :=
Ryanair....a few dribs and drabs, currently being offered a 4% pay-cut
Flybe....about 50%...currently being walked all over by management.
Phantom, you would appear to have been around long enough to realize what the current trend represents, and how to reverse it.
If the JQ workforce spoke with a united voice....it would take about 2 seconds for management types to start paying market rates...but then again if current employees accept their lot..than thats what they deserve isn't it?

Luke SkyToddler

14th May 2007, 07:11

It's not that easy H1 and you know it ... why did we come over here in the first place all those years ago? That's right because jobs in NZ were, and still are, about as hard to come by as a plate of ham sandwiches at a Bar Mitzvah. Not just a good job mind you - ANY kind of a job.

It's just such a tiny tiny market with far too many people trying to break into it. Even now (and it's apparently the good times back home?), where else in the world is there a big thread on pprune and the jungle telegraph goes into a huge storm of excitement every time some regional operator phones around another half dozen turboprop pilots to interview for two or three jobs. :ugh:

Remember that the majority of people back home still don't have overseas work permits or for some reason or another aren't willing or able to go to Europe or Asia or the middle east, there must be hundreds and hundreds of people for whom an NZ based 737 is as good as it's ever going to get. All they really have to do is pay 10% more than the turboprops - who in turn only have to pay marginally more than GA - and wahey they've got truckloads of CVs.

The small size of the airline industry - which is in turn limited by the size of the population - plus the fact that learning to fly is cheap and easy compared to a lot of other countries - all basically means that hell will freeze over before there is a pilot shortage bad enough to do something meaningful for the wages on offer. Until THAT changes - which it won't until the flying schools mysteriously all decide to take a 20 year break from cranking out the pilots - then nothing's going to change the fact that NZ based pilots are doomed to have the crappest T&C's in the world. There's only so much a union can do when the bottom line in the interview is "if you don't like it jack then p!ss off because I've got 500 other cvs on my desk I could phone tomorrow."

Luke SkyToddler

14th May 2007, 07:26

... and another thing, to be absolutely fair to Jetconnect - is that as recently as 5, 6, 7 years ago, $72K and $115K was probably equivalent to UK wages in terms of the standard of living it got you in NZ :uhoh:

Nowadays you'd struggle to get a mortgage on a bloody state house in south auckland with that, let alone anything decent, and if a bunch of airline pilots can't afford a mediocre mortgage on a 3 bed house then I wonder who can? I know a LOT of people in London who came up here for a year or two with their fresh accounting degree or whatever, thinking they'd do the normal kiwi thing, have some fun, live in a shared flat, save some dosh and go home - who now find themselves seriously planning on staying here for good for the same reason, the money on offer in their chosen profession all of a sudden looks bloody pathetic back home.

Wages in NZ across ALL industries have fallen so far behind the drag curve in terms of cost of living in the last few years it's unreal. Pro union as I am, I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect the old employers to carry the can of multiple consecutive 20% pay rises year in year out to cover the rising cost of housing when it's not their fault :{

mattyj

14th May 2007, 08:20

Lukes right..New Zealand is a great place to come and retire..so long as you can afford private health insurance..woe betide if you go into the public system and you're over 65..they kill about 4-5000 per annum here through misadventure. This is a terrible place to come and work..and only someone who whips themselves for fun would try and start a business!!

Aunty Helen and Scrooge McCullen have screwed NZ proper (mostly thanks to MMP) and its our fault..every three years we get a chance to start the long climb back into the 1st world and we stuff it up!

How do you boil a frog..put him in a pot of water and turn the heat up slowly.

haughtney1

14th May 2007, 08:51

Luke, I'm almost in total agreement, but it is that easy...which is why I did leave.
My point is however correct, either you draw a line in the sand or you don't, and BTW thats a decision thats down to the person concerned.
As for work permits, mortgages etc etc, well we all have individual circumstances that are unique, just like the NZ market place, but then again things ARE changing, you don't have to work in Europe anymore. Asia is the new growth area...and as I am sure you know, guys with basic NG/320 ratings are being snapped up faster than Jack Robinson...no work permit or License conversion issues to be too concerned about either.
So rather than accepting the staus quo, perhaps its worth thinking outside the box a little? sure...we all need to get that first job, but after that......oyster, world, etc....
So it really is that simple, you either bend over and take it, or you do something about it.
Sometimes the most obvious things are the hardest to accept.

komac2

14th May 2007, 09:43

Mattyj Aunty Helen and Scrooge McCullen have screwed NZ proper (mostly thanks to MMP) Sorry Mate that was Done By the Previous Goverment prior to the present with the Introduction of the Employment Contracts act back in the Early Nineties the present one just carried it on-althou Looks like most people are in rush to go back to the good ole days of the nineties - if you think your hard done by now by the present goverment wait till the good blokes club make a come back because their are 100 times worse than they were back then :{:{.

This is a terrible place to come and work It is pretty much what you make of it you can moan and make yourself miserable or you can get on with life only you can make yourself Happy.

woe betide if you go into the public system and you're over 65..they kill about 4-5000 per annum here through misadventure.
Don't believe everything you see on TV the media have a habit of trying to create public opinion not report it.

Metro man

14th May 2007, 09:44

I did the sums and worked out that as an A320 F/O in Asia I'm near as damit to a B737 Captain with Virgin Blue. When I get my upgrade, and that happens in 6 months to 2 years depending on previous experience, I will be not very far behind a QF mainline skipper.

From there plenty of prospects once I have a couple of thousand hours P1, including DEC widebody, commuting, tax free, accommodation etc.

So put me on the list of those not going back ;)

Luke SkyToddler

14th May 2007, 09:50

It may be the 'most obvious thing but hardest to accept' mate I do completely agree with you on that, but I still feel for the boys when it has come down to the fact that we all have to make a choice between staying in NZ and sucking the financial fat one forever, or going to some polluted Asian or Middle Eastern mega city working like a dog and living in a shoe box for all the best years of your life until you can afford to go home and retire. I wouldn't pass judgment on anyone for choosing option A over B, they've both got their down sides.

Sad to say that short of closing down half the flying schools and moving 50 million immigrants into NZ, I still can't see the situation changing back home any time soon :hmm:

Metro man

14th May 2007, 11:20

There are some bad jobs around, exactly as you describe. There are also some good ones. Depends on your outlook and family situation. Commuting or crew bases help. Fancy US$9000/month tax free 6 weeks on 2 off with a ticket anywhere on their network with Vietnam Airlines for A320 Captains ?

Around US$13000/month for B744 Captains with Korean Air. Choice of bases and accommodation while passing through Seoul

Plenty of Japan contracts going to, free type rating if you have the right experience.

OZ/NZ great places to be if you are poor, $40 000/year and 3 kids you have excellent benefits. $150 000/year and you soon see who pays for it all.:(

Going overseas was the best move I ever made, I have a very good life and will be considerably better off when I retire.:)

Bumpfoh

14th May 2007, 15:16

Any QF mainline B737 crew with a moral conscience would not even consider bailing out the "company" for their lack of management ability in NZ.

The way I see it they (the company) have created this situation (i.e lower wages, conditions etc and hence the lack of pilots) so let the market forces come to play and force them to up the bid so to speak and then they might not be in such a position to begin with.

You reap what you sow.:ok:

Going Boeing

15th May 2007, 01:27

I totally agree. It would be very short sighted and industrially naive for any mainline pilot to "help out" Jet Connect management. :rolleyes:

Alien Role

15th May 2007, 02:02

Jetconnect has evidently had a turnover of approx' 105 pilots since it commenced operations in 2002. Having started with about 35 pilots, increasing to 80 or so, that would have to be a turnover of about 200%.
And it's not only Oz pilots leaving!

How could they stem the flow?
Company pay for endorsement; 9% super as Qantas have to pay in Aus; full staff travel; and a pay scale at least equivalent to AirNZ FOR STARTERS...

Role on.:ok:

hot tuna

15th May 2007, 03:26

Airline management all read Pprune, that's where their best ideas come from and the odd cereal packet. If any JC or QF Flt Ops Management care to comment, just to even up the thread a little.

Poto

15th May 2007, 12:09

Any QF mainline B737 crew with a moral conscience would not even consider bailing out the "company" for their lack of management ability in NZ.

Unless you could negotiate a Wanaka basing over the winter months with a season pass at TC:E

Mud Skipper

15th May 2007, 20:06

Bumpfoh,

You've got it in one.

I hear many, particularly 'A' 737 Captains are getting restless having had commands now for a long time and little prospect of another type on offer.

If they want to cement this position then by all means run off to NZ and support management suppression of pay and conditions over there, it will come back in spades though - don't go.

How will we ever get some unity in Australia if we act like Kiwi Sheep Shearers, if for nothing else then simply don't go out of old fashioned self interest.:\

virgindriver

15th May 2007, 21:04

Caught up with a friend in the terminal in Adelaide yesterday... Apparently there have been no captains from the Rat wanting to go to Jetconnect, only a couple first officers (some of NZ nationality).
Am told that conditions aren't real flash roster wise- 8 days off in 28 in pairs of 2, and all other days when not working are reserve days. Not much scope to come back home for a visit whilst over there either.
Less money compared to what the guys earn over here was also mentioned- extra flying and density.
Maybe they will have to start hiring and providing better conditions, finally...

By the way, I heard talk that our mob were wanting to get a loan of a few fo's from the Rat for a while but Rat management said no! Interesting.

horserun

15th May 2007, 22:15

Some really good points here, but there is a way you can have your cake and eat it too.
Come drive props for Air Nelson!! Sure props don’t go as fast, or pull girls as easy as jets, but you can live in Nelson, New Plymouth, or Napier. 10 year caption on the Dash gets over $100,000 a year, and that goes along way in the smaller cities.
I wouldn’t say no to driving a jet, but not at the expense of lifestyle.

Well done to all the boys who have gone overseas to chase the coin!

flinaubs

15th May 2007, 23:44

I honestly think people are kidding themselves when they say a pilot shouldn't take advantage of a deal for the greater good of the industry! Its the fundamental plan of all aviation managers to divide and conquer the pilot group!

Most pilots would sell their Grandma for a buck and I reckon there wont be to much problem finding mainline guys or girls to head across the Tasman for a stint in NZ.

Heard a rumor the other day that the deal may not go ahead though... instead QF are looking at operating JC patterns from Aus by the end of late June.

WLGHilton

27th May 2007, 08:21

Rumour is that there is a Kiwi F/O who has signed up. He was one of the ex Ansett NZ pilots who got shafted by poor management in 1999. Surely a little break back home isn't worth that much that he will come back and screw those that he stood beside back then?

DutyofCare

2nd Jun 2007, 23:48

Could anyone please advise me on the expected return of service if one is lucky enough to get into JC? As I know it, it's still the $15k endorsement fee + expenses (in ML for training at Q's sim centre) and are you then expected to fly for the next...? On another leed, how safe is ones investment within JC with the J* basing in Christchurch and talk of runs internally within NZ? Any plausible advise would be welcomed thank you.

Intenleftblank

3rd Jun 2007, 00:59

DutyofCare, i think you might get a few years at most as the long term objective is I think J* doing alot more in NZed. This would be all ok if it gave you a leed in to J* but on what has happened previous it maybe an expensive way to go!http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon13.gif

hot tuna

3rd Jun 2007, 21:04

I believe anyone even remotely considering shelling out $$$$$ on a type rating...should just hold fire...the AFAP website is full of jobs....it's only a matter of time until airlines start financing the ratings....and it won't be too long await.... the shortage of instructors is the first visible sign of demand outstripping supply ...eg...Etihad need 400+ Pilots:ok:.

WLGHilton

8th Jun 2007, 21:44

Ooops, two more just talked with their feet. A WLG based F/O and an AKL based Capt.

Cool banana

11th Jun 2007, 14:16

I see that Jetconnect must be short of pilots my friend just received this e-mail
We are pleased to advise that Jetconnect will soon commence interviews for additional pilots.
If you are still interested in being considered for employment with Jetconnect could you please ensure that your application is up-to-date.
To update your details, complete the following process:
• Go to our recruitment website: click here
• You will be taken to your account Home Page
• Use the navigation menu bar under the main logo or the links in the boxes to access the require information e.g. My Details / Personal Details
• Your details will now be available for you to edit
• Once complete click on the SAVE / SUBMIT button
Applicants who are successful in being short-listed will be contacted by e-mail and invited to attend an interview in Auckland.
Many thanks
The Jetconnect Recruitment Team

haughtney1

11th Jun 2007, 18:34

Got the same email.....

On Guard

12th Jun 2007, 00:25

So whats the go then.

I have this email also. Do I go for a couple of years, cheap type rating, good hrs to have.

Are JC staying for a few years? I can't see Jetstar coming over in the near future??

Help.

empacher48

12th Jun 2007, 00:45

I got the email as well. If I get called for an interview, we'll know they are really, really, really desparate for pilots!

#1AHRS

12th Jun 2007, 23:56

Despite all the critics say, it's a well priced type rating and a job flying over a fairly interesting mix of domestic and regional routes. There are opportunities for the younguns to get some jet experience, for the old farts who want to settle home into something fast and regular and also something for those in between. It pays way better than GA and gives you 3 square meals a day.