Intercepting Wandering Bears & Blackjacks Again (Merged)

[scribbler614]

It all sounds almost nostalgic.
How unusual is this stuff these days, from the Russians? A Sqn Ldr is quoted here as saying he can't remember the last time...
_________________________________
ECHOES OF COLD WAR AS RAF JETS SCRAMBLED
By Jude Sheerin, Scottish Press Association
The spectre of the Cold War was raised today after it emerged RAF jets had to be scrambled when Russian aircraft were detected observing a British naval exercise.
Two Tornado F3s roared into action from Leuchars in Fife after a pair of Russian Bear Foxtrot planes popped up on the air base's radar screens.
The Cold War era aircraft had swept down from Murmansk and the Kola Peninsula, in the far north of Russia, to snoop on a Royal Navy exercise.
Neptune Warrior took place in international waters of the Atlantic Ocean near Scotland in the last week.
The RAF would not disclose exactly when the brief incident to the north of the Outer Hebrides had happened but said no contact was made between the Russian and British aircraft.
Squadron Leader Keith Wardlaw said he could not remember the last time such an encounter had happened.
"The Russians obviously thought it might be worth coming through to have a look at what we were up to and probably take some photos," he said.
"It's a throwback to the Cold War when they used to fly in regularly to poke and prod at the edges of British airspace and test our reaction times.
"It's normal to let such aircraft know we're there by pulling up alongside them and they left quietly. The whole encounter probably lasted 15, 20 minutes."
Neptune Warrior was a live-fire naval training exercise involving warships, submarines and aircraft that took place between April 22 and May 3.
The 161ft-long Russian Bear Foxtrot was designed to fly 3,975 miles without refuelling carrying a payload of more than 10 tons - about the weight of a nuclear bomb at the time the plane was made.
Paul Jackson, editor of Jane's All The World's Aircraft, said: "This aircraft dates back to the 1950s and although the air frame might look dated it is still highly effective in terms of long-range maritime reconnaissance.
"These used to fly over the North Sea and the Greenland Gap daily during the Cold War and while it's rare today, it's by no means a unique occurrence. It's nice to know the Russians are out and about again.
"The exercise was in international waters and the Russians have got just as much right to be there as we have. We do it to them, they do it to us.
"All the RAF are doing is telling them: 'We could do this for real if we wanted to, so go and tell your mates back home'."

[mikip]

Amazing that the RAF managed to find TWO servicable aircraft better not let Gordon Brown know or he will insist on more defence cuts

[airborne_artist]

A Sqn Ldr is quoted here as saying he can't remember the last time...

Lucky that the Typhoon will be ready soon, then :E

[Green Flash]

I wonder if Ivan was hoping the Bears might flush a Typhoon or two, instead of the F3's?

[Northern Circuit]

a pair of Russian Bear Foxtrot planes popped up on the air base's radar screens.

I want one of those radars

[JTIDS]

Does anyone have any good High Definition shots of cold war intercepts, including RAF and Soviet aircraft available? Am trying to put together a "coldwar" presentation at the moment and can only find very low quality ones...

[Wader2]

NC,

I want one of those radars you mean one of those screens where a big green triangular segment rotates rapidly and a big bright dot closes on the centre going DONG every time the green segment crosses it?

[Navaleye]

Illustrious was participating in Neptune Warrior, she could have launched her Shad Hackers to intercept. No wait...

[mcs7]

The Daily Mail carried the story too http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=453672&in_page_id=1770

Sadly their Defence "Expert" clearly couldn't find a Photo of an F3
:ugh:

[BEagle]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/HelloBoris.jpg

Taken by an F-4 mate....

[621andy]

Has the VC10 MRTA*taken over from the F3s, or is it the stop-gap replacement until the Typhoon is finally ready;) or was it topping up the tanks of the Bear in a goodwill gesture?!

*Multi Role Transport(tanker) Aircraft

[Mike Oxmels]

Nice phot.

Lucky they had Vickers' finest fast pursuit ship for the intercept. A Tonka probably couldn't have kept up with the Bear at that height.

[scribbler614]

mcs7
Thanks for pointing that out.
In fairness to the poor chap I happen to know that the Mail's defence correspondent - who can tell an F3 from a GR4 and takes some professional pride in getting these things right - wasn't consulted before this story (which he didn't write) was stuck on the website with the wrong pic.:*
I also happen to know that he's gently pointed out to website staff the error of their ways, and suggested they change it pronto, and that a version of the story he's written for tomorrow's paper is painstakingly researched and (he hopes) correct in every detail.

Original question at top of thread - anyone got a feel for how often this is happening these days?

[ORAC]

I could ask if they were tracked all the way from 30 east, intercepted at the edge of cover, continuously tracked until departing the ADR etc - but that's niff-naff and trivia.

What's far more interesting is the message the Russians are sending with this, and the previous, penetrations.

[NRU74]

Back in the Cold war we flew over Murmansk and the Kola peninsular on a fairly regular basis - once the ice had started to melt so the boats could leave - fortunately no Tonka/F4 equivalents available that far north altho' Alconbury did lose an RB66 in that area in c 1963 if I recall correctly

[High_Expect]

Suffice to say the quoted Sqn Ldr is talking out of his arse!! Unless of course he isn't capable of remember past 9 months or so!!! If you catch my drift.
Just a busybody who is justifying his exsistance in an airforce that is overstreched and is doing away with people and personnel at an alarming rate. Personely I would rather have a couple more SAC lineys than a meligering self important blunty!! :ugh:

but who am I say ::E

[frodo_monkey]

I personally agree with High_Expect, we just don't publicise it a lot...
But more importantly, back to the Daily Mail link mentioned earlier:
The Daily Mail carried the story too http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770
Sadly their Defence "Expert" clearly couldn't find a Photo of an F3

The F3 is now (shock/horror) actually an F3, albeit with legacy weapons, but the Bear F has changed a bit since I last did any recce at work...

I fear the pucker factor may have been slightly higher had one of those popped around to say hello :ooh: :eek:

[scribbler614]

Frodo Monkey
I do NOT believe it.:ugh:
Right, I happen to know that Mail chap has now had another slightly less civil word, and that correct picture - a fine snap of the event itself, clearly showing F3 with aforementioned Bear, taken from cockpit of other F3 - will shortly appear.
Some of us hacks do try.
Next some bright spark will tell me Bear is not an 'F' at all. Confess my recognition skills aren't up to that. If so, blame publicity people at Leuchars.

As for comments from you and High_Expect on frequency of these visits - interesting. Thanks.

[Zoom]

OK, I have followed the link to the Daily Mail and I have read the main story which is entitled 'Who had more sex, mother or daughter?' Now what's all this talk about Bears and F-3s??

Out of interest, why didn't the infinitely more superior Navy or Army do this task? Oh, I remember now - THEY CAN'T!!

[frodo_monkey]

Out of interest, why didn't the infinitely more superior Navy or Army do this task? Oh, I remember now - THEY CAN'T!!

:ok:

Even the Fleet Air Finger with the SHAR would have struggled against the pic the Daily Mail put up (looked like an Su-30 to me) - and before any of the dark blue say it, yes I am saying the F3 is better than the Sea Harrier ever was :}

[maxburner]

Looks like an F3 to me! But then again, I've only got a couple of thousand hours so who knows?

[AonP]

ORAC,

To bit a spotterish, I'd doubt they were tracked much of the way at all, what with the decidedly patchy radar coverage that far north.

Remember Faeros, Saxa and Iceland? All widely reported as closing recently, its a long way from Norway to Benbecula!

Perhaps a bit of a haisty decision to close them all to save money?

[midsomerjambo]

Hey BEags did you get any gas and if so how many roubles per litre? Did you get stamps? It's amazing where you can can find a gas station lol.

MSJ

[vortexadminman]

Zoom calm down mate.
Out of interest, why didn't the infinitely more superior Navy or Army do this task? Oh, I remember now - THEY CAN'T##
No the Army and Navy are not in the game of Bear chasing that is YOUR game. Also YOUR game is CAS and Airlift and SH. If the cracks are in your system and the customers (scuse me being PC) ie the Army and the Navy are saying sorry things are wrong here don't start slagging them. If everything was hunky dorri they would not complain. That said not everything is Ok with the Army or Navy either but if you have any complaints about feeling unsafe if Afgan or Iraq or where ever feel free to state them. We can get a few lads to take you on patrol or something ( O no of course that is OUR game) get the point.

[Pontius Navigator]

Maxburner, I think you missed something the Mail's defence correspondent - who can tell an F3 from a GR4 and takes some professional pride in getting these things right - wasn't consulted before this story (which he didn't write) was stuck on the website with the wrong pic.

By the time you got there they had changed the pics.

When I first looked the pics were not available at all.

[Pontius Navigator]

Mike, the Shack would have picked them up though, but only the following day :}

Wonder where the magic mushroom was?

[ZH875]

The Magic Mushroom was seen chasing the Waddington circuit, in a very close formation of ISTAR assets - E-3D, Nimrod R1 and Sentinel R1.

Noisy, impressive and most unusual, a 3 aircraft launch out of Waddington.

[The Helpful Stacker]

A bit spotterish but why is the F3 in the Bear/F3 pic in the Daily Mail sporting dark roundels rather than the usual 'washed out' ones? Is this in-line with the RAF's policy of turning its aircraft into highly visible adverts? Are they soon to sport the corporate logo too?

[Pontius Navigator]

its aircraft into highly visible adverts

Like unwashed and dirty? Well used and operational?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Like unwashed and dirty? Well used and operational?
Well that counts in the SH, AT, Nimrod and some of the GR fleet.

[maxburner]

Pontious Navigator,

I didn't see the early editions of the Daily Mail - I read a quality paper - so my apologies. The picture in an earlier post was an F3 and that's what I was looking at.

Now, it's time for coffee and back to my Sun...........:hmm:

[Pontius Navigator]

Max, I was refering to the online version where I understand the original pic was not an F3.

I see the Torygraph has the same article from 'our correspondent' or some such euphomism for plagarism.

[knowitall]

"If everything was hunky dorri they would not complain."

have you met the army?

[Zoom]

vortex
I wasn't referring to any cracks in any particular system, but merely to the arguments often spouted by the Navy and Army that they should subsume the RAF because they could do all its tasks so much better. You rightly point out that CAS, airlift and SH is RAF work. But everyone seems to forget that perhaps the RAF's most important task, even now, is the air defence of the homeland, which is an activity that the Army could never do and the Navy could only ever do on a tiny scale (ie fleet defence) however many carriers they had.

[sarsteph]

I see the BBC are keeping up their excellent track record for journalistic accuracy. Website story has a picture of a GR variant instead of the F3.:ugh:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/6641999.stm

[TMJ]

Interestingly, when I went up a level from that BBC page (to see if there was any coverage of the Orkney 7s), I noticed this story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6596565.stm

[WolvoWill]

A bit spotterish but why is the F3 in the Bear/F3 pic in the Daily Mail sporting dark roundels rather than the usual 'washed out' ones? Is this in-line with the RAF's policy of turning its aircraft into highly visible adverts? Are they soon to sport the corporate logo too?New colour scheme being slowly rolled out across the entire fast jet fleet - all over medium sea grey, with full colour (red/blue) roundels. There are Tornados (both F3 and GR) and now a few Harriers wearing this scheme in preference to the old schemes (barley grey/light aircraft grey for the F3, and two tone greys for the Harriers and GRs).

[BEagle]

Why grey, you may well ask....

It's an example of 'jointery' making optimal use of the UK's defence resources.

When John Major was PM, his office decided that rationalisation was needed and turned to him for leadership...

"Grey. I like grey. Grey is good. Pass me the peas please, Norma. Grey. Oh yes, absolutely. Have we got any grey?"

Now many year ago, long before WEBF was making noises about Sea Harriers (or even any noises at all as he hadn't been conceived then - in fact, neither had his father), it was RN tradition to paint everything and anything a fetching tone of battleship grey. So the Great Lord Pusser ordered lots of paint. Millions and millions of tins of the stuff. But then along came defence cuts and there was soon more paint than ships.

But Pusser was a wily cove. "Mr Major - I have a solution. You can paint the RAF's aeroplanes with some of my nice grey paint. I've got plenty to spare. You won't need to paint them in two-shades-of-sh*t, shiny white, hemp, brown or anything else. Just grey, lovely grey!"

"Thank you - I shall see that it is done"

And lo, it was.

Except for the trainers. They used the black paint which Pusser had left over from the bit below the waterline of his old battleships. But there wasn't quite enough left in Pusser's paint locker, so the Dominie was painted to look like a skunk, with some of Pusser's finest white flagpole-paint on the top of the fuselage.

But Pusser's paint was too heavy for the wretched little plastic planes which the RAF turned to for elementary flying training when they could no longer afford to buy their own, so they are au naturel in Bundesweiss fibreglass...


Even the Army Air Corps were given the wretched grey, some years after their original supply of green and black became unavailable...


One fine day when Woopert and Wodney of the Umpty-Umpth Queen's Own Chinless Pwancers were discussing horses' fetlocks, the price of bwown bwogues and pink corduroys over afternoon tea, they were alarmed to receive a call from their Corporal-of-Horse.

"Sirs - there's something very strange just arrived at the Q-stores"

W&W decided to investigate. Asking a passing competent NCO to show them the way, they discovered a puzzled quartermaster looking at a large metal object..

"Eh seh, wot is that, Quartermaster?" asked Woopert.

"Errm, it says 'tank' on the label, sir"

"Good gwief! It's not for us, is it? Does it eat hay?" squeaked Wodney.

"Err, it is sir. It seems that we're to be a mechanised cavalry regiment - and this will replace our chargers"

"Menc..Mechan....Mechanised cavalwy? Surely not - it's just isn't done" shrilled Woopert.

But it was true. So some weeks later, vast quantities cans arrived at the Q-stores, marked 'Paint, green, little tanks for the painting of'. Much to the horrified astonishment of the Comptroller General of the Queens Paint. "How simply fwightful. It's sooo not us. I have all these tins of black enamel for making Dobbin's hooves look all spiffing on pawade - I don't want all this wuddy gween!"

But the Corporal-of-Horse, being an NCO with a sound eye for a quick bob or two had an idea. "Errm, excuse me, Sirs, but I fink I can shift a few of them cans. I know a mate in the Army Air Corps...."

"Army Air Corps - wot's that?" enquired Wodney.

"Errm, well, Sir -you know, the chaps who fly around Salisbury Plain in helicopters"

"Oh those fwightful bounders? Rotters who scared m'pony during m'last chukka at Tidders last week. Righty-ho, Corporal-of-Horse, they can have as much as they wuddy well want" said Wodney.

"Errm, my mate'll need a bung to take 'em of me hands, Sir. Perhaps the regimental fund...."

"Certainly, Corporal-of-Horse. The wedgiment's officers will sort that out for you. A couple of thousand or so to help with your efforts?"

"Thank you very much, Sirs, I shall get on to it immediately"

"Well see you do. Now cut along like a good chap. Spot of tiffin, Woopert?"

And not long afterwards, the Army Air Corps' helicopters started to receive nice new green and black paintwork.....until the good Corporal of Horse was nicked by the Redcaps - and Pusser found himself with a new customer.

[Union Jack]

'Who had more sex, mother or daughter?'

Now what's all this talk about Bears and F-3s??

Out of interest, why didn't the infinitely more superior Navy or Army do this task? Oh, I remember now - THEY CAN'T!!

Probably because the Army was taking care of the mother and the Navy was taking care of the daughter?:)

On a more serious note, "more superior" is an interesting example of tautology and, whilst you're looking up "tautology", look up "subsume" as well before you use it again .....:D

Jack

[Zoom]

I thought someone might comment on 'more superior' but not on 'subsume'. My use of subsume is correct, as you will know if you have trodden or do tread the hallowed halls of Main Building - or even read a dictionary. And 'more superior' is not tautology where all of the Armed Forces are superior (which they are) but some are more superior (or think they are) than others. Your staff studies will have shown you that certain rules can be broken for emphasis. :=

Phew, that was close. :hmm:

[rab-k]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_enl_1178814276/img/1.jpg
An RAF Leuchars Tornado F3 escorting a Russian Bear Foxtrot plane
over the Atlantic Ocean, near the coast of Scotland. The jets had to
be scrambled when the Russian aircraft were detected observing a
British naval excercise. RAF/MoD/PA Wire.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/6641999.stm

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Just to add something....... the 'Jet' in question, (Daily Mail, Later Version) has been pictorially modified, quite right in my view. It has had the Serial and Sqn markings removed. But, that is all. Despite the quotes from earlier posters, it is a recent picture, taken with proper wpns.

If you don't know what I mean, then it doesn't matter. But it is all 'open source', and has been for years.

I am quite suprised, that some of the better 'Spotters', haven't made a connection yet...... ho hum, I guess the trees hide the forrest eh?

Advo

[frodo_monkey]

*Pedantic mode ON*
Actually the serial number is still there, albeit in the sooty crap that gets thrown up by the buckets. And it didn't have any Sqn markings when I took it to Malaysia last year - I remember the jet quite well as it dumped me in Sri Lanka twice with DECU problems :hmm:
*Pedantic mode OFF*

Edit - and the jet/weapons I was referring to is the 43 Sqn liveried jet just down the page on the Mails site - carrying 'Flash and 'Winders :yuk:

[advocatusDIABOLI]

FRODO,

Yes, I can quite believe that. I too have have the 'fun' that is GE !!!! DECU eh? now that is interesting, remind me again of the annotation NFF?:ugh:

Advo

[Brewster Buffalo]

Frodo Monkey
Actually the serial number is still there, albeit in the sooty crap... That Bear looks good in silver why doesn't the F3 smarten up in a natural metal finish as the Lightning used to wear..


(http://www.******************************/lightning/gallery4.html)

[The Helpful Stacker]

Is that a wah?

The F3 has a few panels that wouldn't look right devoid of paint or in other words, 'neath that lick of paint is a right mix of materials.

[Pontius Navigator]

Zoom,

But everyone seems to forget that perhaps the RAF's most important task, even now, is the air defence of the homeland, which is an activity that the . . . Navy could only ever do on a tiny scale . . .

Er actually you may remember that Air Defence of the Homeland was originally a Naval responsibility.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Er actually you may remember that Air Defence of the Homeland was originally a Naval responsibility.

Which they didn't really take seriously enough, hence the RAF was formed.

The RN are at their best in water, the Army are at their best on the ground and the RAF are at their best in the air.

[JessTheDog]

A Sqn Ldr is quoted here as saying he can't remember the last time...


My word, they must recruit and promote them quickly nowadays....I almost wish I'd stayed in! I remember a few around the turn of the century, one very busy day in particular, and one occasion when the CO of one bunker hadn't been told by a certain other bunker of the intrusion into his airspace when they had been looking after it temporarily.....he looked a bit like this::* and this :=

[Union Jack]

The RN are at their best in water, the Army are at their best on the ground and the RAF are at their best in the air

Seems a bit a variance with the old stickers which read "Fly Navy", "Sail Army", and "Eat Crab"!:D

Only kidding .....

Jack

PS (for Zoom) Nice try on "more superior", but any of the 4* masters I had would definitely have substituted "absorbed" for "subsumed" in the case at issue:=

[olddog]

All this Hoo Hah about what used to be almost daily - or at least weekly routine, and the inability of the media to match pictures to stories reminds me of an incident from the days of yore.

In the late 60s, the Fleet (yes we still had one then as opposed to our current Flotilla) were engaged in a major exercise - "Silver Tower" as I recall. When the Bears kindly provided the daily intruder they were intercepted by organic air from the Carrier (An F4, not a plastic Jump Jet thingy!).

The Navy PRO at a certain HQ close to Watford was delighted. What a coup for Navy vs RAF rivalry! However, no photos of the intercept were available so he "Photo shopped" one by cutting a picture of a Navy F4 out of Janes and sticking it onto an old pic of a Bear. Computers in those days filled a room!

The composite pic was duly printed in the press and the stick on F4 was immediately spotted by the RAF PRO who contacted the press to point out the skullduggery of the RN. RN PRO then had to admit to releasing doctored photos to the press and issue apology.

Cause of great leg pulling of Dark Blue by Light Blue at Joint HQ and another point in the RAF's favour!

Let's hope the Ruskies are struggling as hard as we are with cuts and funding.
If not, and they start making regular visits to the UK ADR again we may be pushed to find a servicable Jet to meet them. Do we still have a tanker available for Q or the ability to escort an intruder for a couple of hours?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Good thing we brought all those Typhoons eh?

[Wader2]

And based them in the south.

I hope the guys who get posted to Jockistan are ready for the move.

[Bunker Mentality]

Devil's Advocate wrote:

'Just to add something....... the 'Jet' in question, (Daily Mail, Later Version) has been pictorially modified, quite right in my view. It has had the Serial and Sqn markings removed. But, that is all. Despite the quotes from earlier posters, it is a recent picture, taken with proper wpns.'

I know Frodo's already pointed out that the F-3's pic has not been tampered with, but why would anyone want to airbrush it in the first place? Is it in case the Russians might see it? I dare say they took some photos of their own.

And when they did take a picture, I bet they used a camera, rather than 'proper weapons' ;)

BM

[Zoom]

Jack
Settle for a draw?

[Wader2]

I love the links at the bottom of the page :)

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77667

[Union Jack]

Settle for a draw?

Oh alright you smooth-talking bar-steward.:)

Jack

[bluebird121]

At the end of the day our pilots saw off the intruders. How dare the Russians assume they can just observe our manoevres..without any intervention.:D

[OCCWMF]

They were Bears, not Intruders. They really are very different to look at.:8

[PPRuNeUser0211]

There might have been an Intruder inside the bear... there is enough room after all!

[Zoom]

Jack, thank you. And to everyone else, that just goes to prove that the (ex-) Services can agree on something after all. ;)

[Rakshasa]

*Pedantic mode ON*
Actually the serial number is still there, albeit in the sooty crap that gets thrown up by the buckets. And it didn't have any Sqn markings when I took it to Malaysia last year - I remember the jet quite well as it dumped me in Sri Lanka twice with DECU problems
*Pedantic mode OFF*

Edit - and the jet/weapons I was referring to is the 43 Sqn liveried jet just down the page on the Mails site - carrying 'Flash and 'Winders

And discussing this on another site I had a Septic try and tell me said aircraft had Sparrows and was a German F2!!! How I would've ridiculed if I hadn't suspected him of Walt-baiting me! :E

[clicker]

I'm glad the Bear was seen off because when a jorno states

"The RAF would not disclose exactly when the brief incident to the north of the Outer Hebrides had happened but said no contact was made between the Russian and British aircraft.

It would worry some of the chavs and chavess's, if they could think.

[AonP]

The reference to the lack of radar coverage this far north is a well known problem all in the public domain, not classified as some PMs have suggested after my earlier post. Below are the open sources I am talking about.
From Hansard:
The cold war radar station of RAF Saxa Vord on the Shetland island of Unst will be put on care and maintenance from April 2006, subject to consultation with the trade unions. This will mean that the station is effectively closed, but that the main operational part of the estate will continue to be maintained should it be required for future use. Radar cover at the level required can be provided by other RAF radars augmented by those of the National Air Traffic Services. Placing the station on care and maintenance means that we would be able to re-instate a radar capability should the threat assessment change.
From the CIA Factbook:
Under a 1951 bilateral agreement, Iceland's defense was provided by a US-manned Icelandic Defense Force (IDF) headquartered in Keflavik; in October 2006, all US military forces in Iceland were withdrawn; nonetheless, the US and Iceland signed a Joint Understanding to strengthen their bilateral defense relationship.
RAF Website:
Full listings of RAF sites and locations.
ICAO Website:
The combined Reykjavik and Søndrestrøm FIR’s is one of the larger Oceanic Control Areas in the world. The surface area is approximately 5,4 millj km2 extending from the 61° N parallel up to the North pole. In the vast majority of the FIR no ground based surveillance, such as radar, is supported. However in the most dense traffic areas of the Reykjavik FIR radar surveillance is supported. This has been accomplished by retrieving radar data from six military radars located in Iceland and in the Faeroe Islands. The radar
located in the Faeroe Islands is of critical importance as it covers the south east section of the East Sector where air traffic from the adjacent FIR’s in Scotland and Norway is handed over to the Reykjavik Area Control Center and vice versa. Therefore crossing of traffic patterns is quite frequent in this sector. The operation of the Faeroese radar was terminated in the beginning of 2007 and ISAVIA is now forced to take appropriate actions to restore surveillance in the area.
http://www.icao.int/icdb/HTML/French/Representative%20Bodies/Joint%20Support%20Committee/Working%20Papers%20by%20Session/181/JS.181.WP.1894.FR/JS.181.WP.1894.APPB.FR.PDF

[c-bert]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2093759.ece
Seems the Ruskies are up to their old tricks...
RAF fighter jets were scrambled to intercept two Russian strategic bombers heading for British airspace yesterday, as the spirit of the Cold War returned to the North Atlantic once again.
The incident, described as rare by the RAF, served as a telling metaphor for the stand-off between London and Moscow over the murder of Alexander Litvinenko.
While the Kremlin hesitated before responding to Britain’s expulsion of four diplomats, the Russian military engaged in some old-fashioned sabre-rattling.
Two Tu95 “Bear” bombers were dispatched from their base on the Kola Peninsula in the Arctic Circle and headed towards British airspace.
Russian military aircraft based near the northern port city of Murmansk fly patrols off the Norwegian coast regularly, but the RAF said that it was highly unusual for them to stray as far south as Scotland.
Two Tornado fighters, part of the RAF’s Quick Reaction Alert, took off from RAF Leeming, in Yorkshire, to confront the Russian aircraft, after they were shadowed by two F16s from the Royal Norwegian Air Force, The Times has learnt.
“The Russians turned back before they reached British airspace,” an RAF spokesman said.
There was no evidence to suggest that the incident was connected with the diplomatic row over the extradition of Andrei Lugovoy, the main suspect in the murder of Litvinenko. Studies at the Russian Academy of Sciences, criticised the British reaction but urged the Kremlin not to escalate the conflict. “Why does one former KGB officer killing another deserve this attention?” he asked.
In London, Yuri Fedotov, the Russian Ambassador to London, said that Russia would soon respond against Britain and admitted that relations were strained.
“The response will follow. It takes time. We are serious people,” he said. “It is really hard to be optimistic today. I hope in the long run our relations will be restarted – reloaded, so to say – but that is not the best moment of the history of our bilateral relations.”

[rotornut]

From Times Online July 18, 2007

RAF scrambles to intercept Russian bombers
Richard Beeston, Diplomatic Editor

RAF fighter jets were scrambled to intercept two Russian strategic bombers heading for British airspace yesterday, as the spirit of the Cold War returned to the North Atlantic once again.

The incident, described as rare by the RAF, served as a telling metaphor for the stand-off between London and Moscow over the murder of Alexander Litvinenko.

While the Kremlin hesitated before responding to Britain’s expulsion of four diplomats, the Russian military engaged in some old-fashioned sabre-rattling.

Two Tu95 “Bear” bombers were dispatched from their base on the Kola Peninsula in the Arctic Circle and headed towards British airspace.

Russian military aircraft based near the northern port city of Murmansk fly patrols off the Norwegian coast regularly, but the RAF said that it was highly unusual for them to stray as far south as Scotland.

Two Tornado fighters, part of the RAF’s Quick Reaction Alert, took off from RAF Leeming, in Yorkshire, to confront the Russian aircraft, after they were shadowed by two F16s from the Royal Norwegian Air Force, The Times has learnt.

“The Russians turned back before they reached British airspace,” an RAF spokesman said.

There was no evidence to suggest that the incident was connected with the diplomatic row over the extradition of Andrei Lugovoy, the main suspect in the murder of Litvinenko. Studies at the Russian Academy of Sciences, criticised the British reaction but urged the Kremlin not to escalate the conflict. “Why does one former KGB officer killing another deserve this attention?” he asked.

In London, Yuri Fedotov, the Russian Ambassador to London, said that Russia would soon respond against Britain and admitted that relations were strained.

“The response will follow. It takes time. We are serious people,” he said. “It is really hard to be optimistic today. I hope in the long run our relations will be restarted – reloaded, so to say – but that is not the best moment of the history of our bilateral relations.”

[Tarnished]

Did they turn back when they had sussed that it was Tornados coming to intercept them and not the Typhoons that they were fishing for????

[fireflybob]

Surprised we had any aircraft left to scramble as they all seem to be occupied with other tasks - not to mention any "terrorist" alerts!

[Background Noise]

Already running

[BEagle]

BRITISH BOYS REPEL RUSSIAN TERROR!!

The savage Mongoloid hordes of the Sovietski Soyuz were safely repelled yesterday by plucky Brit fliers in their secret new wonderjet, the Vickers Flunderbuss:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/HelloBoris.jpg

An RAF spokesman commented "Yes please, make it a large one. And not too much bloody tonic. Now, what was the query? Oh yes, the Vickers Flunderbuss. That sent bloody Ivan packing, I can tell you! Buggers were probably sh*t scared that some of the speed tape would peel off and a bit of the old crate might fall off and hit them!"

[ORAC]

Buggers were probably sh*t scared that some of the speed tape would peel off and a bit of the old crate might fall off and hit them!" As I recall the diplomatic protest back in the 80s, they said they were more sh*t scared that the T-tail was going to hit them when the intrepid Funderbuss flew underneath them to try get the door number....... :E

[teeteringhead]

Oh yes, the Vickers Funderbluss. That sent bloody Ivan packing ... and I guess the Funbus would have better performance at height than a tooled-up F3! ;)

[haltonapp]

Will they have to re-establish TANSOR?

Happy days!

[AonP]

From the Times:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2093759.ece

[Northern Circuit]

Will they have to re-establish TANSOR?


no, but if this continues we could seriously do with a few shackle bombers up north.

[Wyler]

Thankyou to the Times for a complete load of boll*cks. Would love to see their 'evidence' that this was connected to the latest Noo Labour bitch fight.

Amazing that we follow the Americans around the world telling other countries to exercise soveriegnty over their land, waters and airspace and yet we strip our own country of the means to do just that.

Personally, I have always found the VC10 a great 'Interceptor' on long range, high level QRA.:ok:

[Tom Sawyer]

ZA141 in hot pursuit..........they were the days.:ok:

[Widger]

They would not have got past this:
http://www.armedforces.co.uk/navy/listings/navyseadart2b.jpg

Soon to be replaced by this:
http://www.armedforces.co.uk/navy/listings/navyaster30b.jpg:ok::ok:

[c-bert]

That's assuming PAAMS doesn't blow a hole in the bottom of the ship the first time they fire it...

[ORAC]

That'll be Aster then. Just have to hope they don't have a decent ASM with a stand-off range of more than 120km. Ohh, wait... I hope they'll carry enough to ripple fire them. APA NOTAM: (http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-040707-1.html)

Have a look at the big piece of metal between the engine pods in the Su-33 picture above. This is a Raduga Kh-41 Moskit [Ed: SS-N-22 Sunburn] which is a 4,500 kilogram mass supersonic rocket-ramjet missile, which skims the waves at 2.2 Mach supersonic velocity. Imagine a missile seven times the size of the French Exocet, which destroyed so many British ships in the Falklands/Malvinas war, travelling at three times the speed of the French missile. In front of the Su-33 in this picture is an NPO Mashinostroyenia Kh-61 Yakhont [Ed: SS-N-26], which is a 2,500 kg mass supersonic missile which achieved Mach 2-2.5.

Kh-41: (http://www.deagel.com/Anti-Ship-Missiles/Kh-41_a001022002.aspx) Range 250Km.

Kh-61: (http://www.deagel.com/Anti-Ship-Missiles/Yakhont_a001021001.aspx) Range 300Km.

[AonP]

According to FOX News the Russians have been training again - anyone would think they're trying to make a point.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,290111,00.html

As far south a Aberdeen apparently! I wonder if someone is regretting shutting all those northern radar sites? Anyone got a few million spare to buy some new radars to fill the gaps? I suppose it makes a change for the Fighter Controllers at the final secret bunker - not looking for Hijacked airliners, but real military aircraft.

[M609]

This morning the Bodø QRA went ovehead my house (Bardufoss) supersonic with a mighty bang (shook the windows a lot), heading north.

Quick call to work to check speed and alt! :E

(All within the rules! :) )

[BlotBangRub]

Widger, what happens if there's 3? I can only spot 2 rocket thingies. By the way, somebody's left the hose on, what happened to water being scarce on a boat?

[nunquamparatus]

Not sure what all the fuss is about. Russians heard about Indradush II, thought they'd come and play 'Red Air' against the Typhooeys. Must have been reet disappointed to get bounced by some of those F3 things. Aren't they supposed to be out of service and replaced by those new, shiny fangled things! Good job they came nice and low for the Tonkas, maybe someone told them the top of the block was FL250................

[pr00ne]

Widger,

"they would not have got past this:"


Are you sure? In 1982 I seem to recall that plenty of rather old fashioned Argentinian A4 and Mirage type thingies got past those on a fairly regular basis......................

[maxburner]

nunq etc,

I seem to remember firing a Skyflash from FL500 and M0.9 from an F3 thingy. Successfully.

[AonP]

A very valid point in the comments at the bottom of this detailed article in the Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=469893&in_page_id=1811

After all the fanfare about them becoming operational in the QRA role why aren't they being used?

[WolvoWill]

At the moment there are only enough operational Typhoons to man the Coningsby based Southern QRA unit on a monthly basis (3 squadrons Typhoons and 25 squadrons Tornado F3s alternate between the role every month), not the Leuchars based Northern QRA which was involved in these intercepts.

Given time the Typhoon will be fielded on the front line in sufficient numbers to completely take over the task (2009?)

[Take That]

Wolvo Will

Need to check your sources. Think you will fine it was Leeming based F3s up there in the early hours of Friday.

[Rocket Chucker]

JTIDS - PM me I may be able to help.

[WolvoWill]

Does the northern QRA switch bases between Leeming and Leuchars (as in, the aircraft can sit on QRA duty at either base), or does it fly only out of Leuchars (but the jets and crews based there can be drawn from either the Leeming or Leuchars squadrons)?

Just seeking clarification :)

[Climebear]

WolvoWill

Northern QRA(I) normally operates out of Leuchars all the time. However, there are currently lots of holes in and contractors' vehicles all over Leuchars main runway as it is upgraded, so the Northern QRA(I) task has moved south to Leeming for the Summer.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Interesting that the Mail article mentions the Blackjack as well as the Bear.... and mentions at the bottom "3 seperate incidents"? I suspect a confused journo, but anyone know if any Blackjacks have been spotted recently? Wouldn't have thought so!

[RumourMonger]

Do not worry Fleet Street has been at it again this time they do not between to differentate between HMS Ocean and an Invincible Class Aircraft carrier. AS per the Telegraph`s report that there is a rummour that the Government might actually be going to place an order for the QE II class CVF`s http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/07/19/cnships119.xml

Why do newspapers get imagery and captions wrong probally a number of reasons. My work involves writing for a number of journals nearly all sush work is commissioned as opposed to Newspapers, where their Editors basically do not want to pay for material unless they have to. Stories like the intercept will be written from a desk in the newspapers office, I have had times when I swear stories I have offerred have been re-written by "Staff Reporter" another is the organisations like the BBC they do not want to pay they have a rights grab for on line material check out the small print on their on line submission pages use for free for ever and a day. You would have to live on the esteem of having you picture appear all over the world. B****** I have a mortgage to pay. So it has got to the stage where it is not worth the effort of trying to submitt material to major newspapers or the likes of the BBC

But one of major gripes is the MoD and the Government News Network. It is so difficult to get hold of high res newspictures directly form the MoD. I have been trying for 6 mnths to get a password for the Defence Image Library because the resoloution of images that the post on the web site is so low they are virtually unsable.

Why does the MoD not take a leaf out of the Australian and US Defence Departments and make the high res images available.
Cockpit imagery could be made available as at the time of the Apahce rescue. But again unrestricted access was not available unless using the relativley small files available from the MoD web site/(Although I wounder who did the risk assesments and method statements for flying on the stub wings.) Surley there would have been some imagery available from the intercepts, so why did not the MoD make that available?

But there might be something in that the MoD and PR companies for all the large aerospace manufacturers are trying to stage manage the Media. So I suppose you should not be to hard on the confused journos who would probally ring the Met Office to ask if it was either a Tornado or a Typhoon of the coast of Norway

[ORAC]

Jeez, so many errors in just the first two paragraphs...... :ugh::ugh:

Torygraph: Kremlin tactics echo Cold War (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/22/nrkremlin122.xml)

[M609]

and mentions at the bottom "3 seperate incidents"? I suspect a confused journo, but anyone know if any Blackjacks have been spotted recently? Wouldn't have thought so!

There was indeed 3 incidents of Russian aircraft running west in the time from from wedensday to friday, 2 flights of Bears and one Blackjack flight. The Tu-160 Blackjack flight did however stay in the Barents sea. The QRA flight that went super over my house on friday was a back up QRA flight on it's way to relive the first 2 F-16s following the Blackjack flight.

(All according to the Norwegian Joint Operational HQ press officer.)

The Russians claimed that is was a normal training flight. Funny how they invited the international press to see one of the Bear flights as it landed at Engels.

Coordinated pr stunt? Nahh...... :E

[SirToppamHat]

You're not wrong ORAC - you'd expect better from the Torygraph, but it seems even they aren't capable of even the most basic research when trying to come up with some bolleaux in support of a theory. The snag is, the theory may have some basis in truth, but how can you give it any credence when the rest of the article is such tripe?

Tornado F4 :ugh:
Fylingdales :ugh:
Running across the runway :ugh:

Arse.

STH

[PPRuNeUser0211]

M609, cheers that clears it up! Glad to see the journos had it right, confidence restored (even if they did explain all pretty poorly!) Blackjacks eh.... anyone know how many they actually have left flying?

[scopey]

Left? Aren't they adding to the fleet rather than taking away..?

[AonP]

We've all seen the reports over the past few days about the recent russion penetration of the UK Air Defence Region, but an artlicle in The Sun (I know) suggests it may have been much larger than suggested by the initial MOD Press Release.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007390196,00.html

Also, is there any truth in the rumour that a rushed study looking at putting a Type 101 radar up at Saxa Vord has already been completed? See earlier posts reference the lack of radar coverage up north. I wonder how much of the recent incursions were actually tracked - at a guess not much!

[BEagle]

Perhaps all this will wake up the idiot UK government and force them to realise that the primary purpose of the UK Armed Forces is to defend the UK - not to tart about interfering in other people's wars licking Bush's ar$e in a 'lean' and 'agile' 'expeditionary' manner :yuk:?

If so, then thanks indeed to Mr Putin!

[Green Flash]

Also, is there any truth in the rumour that a rushed study looking at putting a Type 101 radar up at Saxa Vord has already been completed? See earlier posts reference the lack of radar coverage up north. I wonder how much of the recent incursions were actually tracked - at a guess not much!

Guess where HMS Darings' first cruise will be, then?!

[BEagle]

Why - do they have good CockersPs in Saxa?

[PingDit]

AonP, WolvoWill,

You're both obviously communist plants/sleepers, and ask too many serious questions. As I've now realised this, I absolutely refuse to let you know anything about our new 'Sticklebrook' defence system which has been designed specifically to combat the new Bear problem!

PD
:suspect:

[Green Flash]

Bank Holiday in progress - what's the money on them having another push in the expectation that we're all in front of the BBQ?! Or have they blown the fuel budget for the year?

[F34NZ]

Green Flash, we'll run out of F3s before Russia runs out of fuel.

[Green Flash]

F34
Good job we were far sighted enough to develop the Typhoon, then!:rolleyes:
I sort of guessed they might have more fuel. We are about to live in yet more interesting times, methinks.:uhoh:

But our equally far sighted leaders will have thier fingers on that particular pulse too. I'm sure. So that's allright, then.

[airsound]

Radio 4 had an interesting piece on 'BH' (0900 this morning) by ex-Moscow correspondents Bridget Kendall and Brian Hanrahan.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/bh/
go to 'listen again' and the piece starts at time 21mins 40secs.

They suggest (at time 26mins30secs) that the only reason the Russians stopped sending Bears et al to test our alert systems is that they couldn't afford the fuel. Now they can afford it again.

airsound

[F34NZ]

Green Flash : Indeed; that was a jibe at the F3. The twist to this posturing could come sooner than we hope, however, if the expropriation of foreign stakes in the oil and gas industries denies Russia the expertise it needs to efficiently exploit its reserves. If European governments finally learn to stand together instead of knifing each other for crumbs (yes I am holding my breath; why do you ask ?) we may yet see Putin's sucessor take a more mature stance.

On the other hand, he may have just successfully provoked Georgia in an election year, in which case the interesting times will be upon us very soon.

[Green Flash]

F3 poke rcvd loud and clear!

[tablet_eraser]

Radar operators at RAF Fylingdales, the early warning station 20 miles away on Lockton High Moor, had just identified two unknown aircraft speeding towards British airspace...

Wow. Missed that one.

[ORAC]

So, where is our top secret UK strategic bomber base then? Or are they flying so intensively they never have the time to land anywhere? :hmm:

RAF Secret Strategic Bomber Base
http://captainscarlet.sfdaydreams.com/cloud1.jpg

DefenseNews: Russia Says Bombers Not Flying With Nukes (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2994800&C=europe)
REUTERS, MOSCOW

Russian bombers, which this month resumed their Soviet-era practice of flying long-range patrols near NATO airspace, are not carrying nuclear weapons, a senior air force commander said Aug. 27......

"These flights are being carried out without nuclear weapons onboard," the commander of Russia’s long-range aviation, Pavel Androsov, told reporters at the defense ministry........

Androsov said Western alarm over the resumption of the long-range patrols had been fanned artificially. "We have been flying, are flying and will continue to fly," he said. "Our colleagues are not sitting on their laurels. If you look at the pilots of the strategic aviation of America and Great Britain, they have also not been sitting in their airbases. They are flying very intensively.".........

[MarkD]

obviously the Vulcan back-to-flight project is being taken very seriously!

[TEEEJ]

They have people hiding in the bushes around Bruntingthorpe as we speak ;)

[Fearless_Leader]

I could ask if they were tracked all the way from 30 east, intercepted at the edge of cover, continuously tracked until departing the ADR etc - but that's niff-naff and trivia.

What's far more interesting is the message the Russians are sending with this, and the previous, penetrations.


Gee, and I wonder if you worked on EO or EOA at a CRC??? Lol...

:)

[Fearless_Leader]

ORAC,

To bit a spotterish, I'd doubt they were tracked much of the way at all, what with the decidedly patchy radar coverage that far north.

Remember Faeros, Saxa and Iceland? All widely reported as closing recently, its a long way from Norway to Benbecula!

Perhaps a bit of a haisty decision to close them all to save money?


Don't we have an E3D fleet...? Or are they a bit busy? :ugh:

[ORAC]

EO and EO UEO/LEO examiner. Had to love that Link 3, those twiddly knobs and those ridiculous tests at around midnight.

[Maple 01]

Rmvngdt Fep1 Fep2?

[DTY/LKS]

Sky News are reporting breaking news that RAF Tornados have intercepted 8 Russian Aircraft approaching UK Airspace. It is believed to be the "Bear" aircraft again, but this time 8 of them.

[I've_got a traveller]

I'm off home to build a shelter and stock up on baked beans!!!!:eek:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1283041,00.html

[callum11223344]

was this on tv or the internet?

[Beefy_EMA]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1283041,00.html

[Rainboe]

I'm interested in the mechanics of these flights. Presumably they are not in touch with ATC otherwise the benefit of surprise is lost. At what altitude do these interceptions take place? Do these flights obstruct flights from North and Eastern Europe flying northwestwards to the Americas? How does the European parliament view surprise military thrusts at its borders? If UK airspace is being infringed, why isn't the European Parliament onto it? Why is it not viewed as an unfriendly act to have such military probing flights these days? I just find it slightly unsettling having apparently unannounced and uncontrolled military flights flying in areas where I have flown airliners- or do they have their own corridors for this sort of thing.

If we are going to have again masses of military incursions, and probably Russian submarines once again probing Swedish, Norwegian and British coastlines, then time to start sinking them? Or nuke Vladivostok?

[PingDit]

8 Bears came around the top today and according to the BBC were intercepted by Norwegian F15's. Then joined by 4 Tornado's as they neared the UK ADR. Sending squadrons now?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Presumably they are not in touch with ATC otherwise the benefit of surprise is lost.

The purpose of these flights are for training and to probe the defences of States along the way (for the Russians own intelligence purposes). Hardly a surprise that they don't come announced or file a civilian flight plan :).

At what altitude do these interceptions take place?

The Bear is a large turbo prop aircraft. It's service ceiling is around 10,000 Metres.

Do these flights obstruct flights from North and Eastern Europe flying northwestwards to the Americas?

It depends on exactly where they fly and at what altitude. But potentially they can get in the way.

How does the European parliament view surprise military thrusts at its borders?

The flights all take place in international airspace where military aircraft (including NATO and European air arms) can and do operate as they wish. It's called 'Due Regard' and basically they don't worry about any other civil flights other than to not hit them in the interests of self preservation. For the civil controllers it is unsatisfactory and poses a perceived danger to civil operations, but it's legal.

If UK airspace is being infringed, why isn't the European Parliament onto it?

UK sovereign airspace is not being breached. Only airspace for which the UK has civil ATC responsibility or military air defence responsibility. It's no worse than the constant infringements in the Middle East civil air lanes by US or UK aircraft operating under 'Due Regard'. In some ways it's actually a lot less dangerous since the Bears take a long time to get to the airspace involved and are tracked by the military who keep the civil controllers advised.

Why is it not viewed as an unfriendly act to have such military probing flights these days?

The West do the same in other areas. We can't claim any moral high ground.

I just find it slightly unsettling having apparently unannounced and uncontrolled military flights flying in areas where I have flown airliners- or do they have their own corridors for this sort of thing.

As above, they go where they want, where they want. It's not nice to watch it from the ground either, but there's nothing that can be done other than to vector civil flights away from the problem areas.

[ORAC]

There is no element of surprise.

The aircraft are tracked by the Norwegians and the picture is shared. As the cross 30E arounnd the Kola peninsula a penetration time for the UKADR is calculated - working on the assumption they will continue S/SE and penetrate. It is over 2 hours. The QRA takes 1 hour to get there, so there is plenty of time to have a meal, brief, stroll to the jet etc.

Most times they turn back before a scramble, the only tricky ones being when they turn round after reching the Lofoten islands, in which the wheels were normally in the wells as they turned - which meant a quick dump, land and turn.

The normal Bear cruise altitude is around FL360. They normally do not talk to ATC or file a flight plan*. They stay in international airspace over international waters and do not infringe the 12nm limit, so they therefore contravene no laws.

There might be a few eyebrows raised about it, but they pose no military threat. If they wanted to they could launch their ALCMs over the Kola. The general reaction is a general scratching of heads wondering what point Putin is trying to make. It's certainly not one about military might. The Russian armed forces are so emasculated and their population imploding so fast that they are - nukes aside - militarily insignificant.

*Going back to the 80s, the Russians started filing flight plans for their missions in the Norwegian Sea/GIUK gap and then complained if they were intercepted and we broke the standard separation rules.

[harrogate]

4 F3s direct from Leeming, apparently.

Isn't sending them direct from Leeming a contingency plan?

[Flip Flop Flyer]

Edit: Answered much better above than my feeble attempts.

[ORAC]

Norwegian F-15s? They kept that quiet.... :hmm:

[BOAC]

I just find it slightly unsettling having apparently unannounced and uncontrolled military flights flying in areas where I have flown airliners- - as do the Eastern bloc airline pilots when we send our aircraft in:)

Loads about all of this in Mil and other fora.

Yes they could cross the path of civil traffic, and if they come via the Iceland/Faroes gap (which used to be the favourite) to work with the fleet in the Atlantic they will head south at some point, plus they used to fly down to Conakry via that route. Levels bewteen 1000' and Fl360 but they will certainly know YOU are there.

8 bears:eek: Have we got enough AD aircraft?

Orac - you can still get the odd 'surprise' arrival even with all the kit in pace.

[acmi48]

hope the bear is tcas2 ver 7 or better equipped..
other scenario is that plane spotter at leuchars or conningsby picks up his mobile phone calls moscow and says 2 aircraft tail numbers ... took off
at ...

[BOAC]

a) I don't expect they will be transponding
b) their radar will see you well in advance.

[WHBM]

8 Bears in formation ? That's 64 contra-rotating propellers. What a noise ! Do you think they would do a low flypast over my house ?

The general reaction is a general scratching of heads wondering what point Putin is trying to make.
Maybe when you find out why on earth the US are investing billions in installing new ICBMs along the Polish/Belarus border you will be close to the answer why the Russians have restarted these flights. What's the US excuse for this ? Oh yes, to guard against rogue missiles coming in from - er - Iran.

[ORAC]

What the US are looking at installing are 10 interceptor Mx with kinetic warheads. The location of the Mx and radars are only effective against IRBM/ICBMs from the Middle/Far East. They're useless against Russian missiles over the pole.

Speak to a Russian strategic analyst and he'll agree totally. Putin is making up threats and problems where they don't exist for some reason. Most think it is because it plays well with the domesti caudience to be standing up to the West and he's looking at getting the vote behind his candidate in the next Presidential election. But why is mystery, he already has overhwelming support and is turning even semi-allies such as Germany against him.

The biggest fear is that he actually believes the stuff he's coming out with....

[justone26]

See link below:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1283041,00.html

I am based at Waddo and I am sure we don't have any Fast Jets, unless Sentinel counts. :rolleyes:

[stevehudd]

No-one not even Russia would want a nuclear war - it's pointless, it would be like shooting yourself in the foot. If Russia wanted to do anything harmfull they could stop all civilian flights into their airports from the uk But i'm sure we are still travelling there everyday as if nothing is wrong.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

8 Bears came around the top today What a sound track that must have been. Since when did R.Nor.A.F. have F-15s I thought they flew F-16s ??
Be lucky
David

[PingDit]

Avgas,

I believe you are correct, Norway don't have F15's but F16's!
Just another slip-up from our wonderful BBC!

[Hurkemmer]

This thread mentions "Eastern Bloc" wtf.. There is no such thing.

http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1559956

Maybe the US "oopses" a potential response?

[PingDit]

Similar thread here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=275230

PD
:)

[JOE-FBS]

"ICBMs along the Polish/Belarus border"

I am no expert but won't they be interceptor missiles not ICBMs?

[Heliplane]

Has there been any report on whether these aircraft are carrying nuclear weapons?

Wonder precisely what Russia hopes to achieve by this. Could this lead to the US SAC flying B52s near Russia.... All seems like a bit of a backwards step to me. Perhaps Putin didn't like the food at Kennebunkport.

[PingDit]

I think it's great! - We're both going to have to increase our defence budgets - more jobs for the boys!:E

[Skipness One Echo]

Good news as it means that Paw Broon has no excuse to run the defence budget down any more as the bloody Russians are getting all aggresive again. Funny how this always brings out the people amongst us Brits whose first thought is not "There's a Russian bomber heading right for us" but instaed "Well we must empathise with ( insert oppressed foreign people ) in their fight with the EVIL Americans.":ugh:
They'll be digging Tony Benn up soon. Yes I know he's not dead but still........

Seriously and fundamentally I disagree that this is a backward step. It is step towards normality being resumed. The Russians have their world view. We in the West have ours. Anything that gets the word "middle east" off the front pages has got to be good.

[Ozgrade3]

Ok, a dumb question from a civi pilot.

How do the Russian Bears navigate through the airline tracks without hitting another aircraft. Of course, they use radar and as I understnd it, they do have the kit on board.

But,........isnt it the norm to keep your transmitting gear quiet, such as radars etc so;

A) the otherside doesnt know your comming and,

B) the less time you transmit, means the less time the other side has to enalyse your electronic signature.


Lastly, with the big B-52 raids on Iraq that were launched from the UK, a map shows they have to transverse significant western European Airspace.

How were they separated from the civi travic, such as close to the UK etc.

Does ATC get a flight plan and ony certain ATCO's know about the plan and handle the military traffic.

[pr00ne]

PingDit,

I think you'll find that the slip up was on the part of the original poster, not the BBC, wasn't that you?

[AonP]

Justone26 I agree, no F3s based at Waddo, have the got it wrong and meant to say E3s?

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1283041,00.html?f=rss

Also I presume a tanker was used since it sounds as though they were fairly well up north - no mention of Brize and a VC10/Tristar!

Also on the BBC website and News24:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6981541.stm

Interesting comment from the Norwegian Lt Col "Our systems are adequate", he said, when asked whether Norway was bolstering its security in the area. I havent heard anyone from the UK stating that - is it because our systems arent adeqate?

[Kitbag]

I think you'll find that the slip up was on the part of the original poster, not the BBC, wasn't that you?

In PDs defence BBC R4 One o'clock news stated quite clearly F15s

[harrogate]

Agreed - the Beeb didn't put F-15.

And no, they didn't amend it to F-16 from F-15 either ;)

[AonP]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2400345.ece

[Wycombe]

....well remember being woken from my slumbers in Wycombe Towers back in the Spring of 2003, by a stream of Buff's taking a early morning tour of Southern England on their way back into Fairford, bomb racks empty.

Perhaps they were lost ;)

Seriously, I don't know about the detail of their routings, and doubt anyone on here is going to tell you either.

[PingDit]

Yep, I was indeed the original poster this time round, and my quote was verbatum from BBC Radio 2 news desk this lunchtime. They definately said Norwegian F15's - made me think too!

PingDit
:ok:

[DarkBlueLoggie]

Another article here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=CIFY2XF0J01U3QFIQMFCFFOAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/09/06/nrussia106.xml

Interestingly:

As relations between Russia and Britain deteriorate, the number of incidents in which Russia's submarines have been found close to British shores or in contact with Royal Navy warships has also risen.

I wondered when they'd get their boats involved.

[mlc]

Shame they've sunk or flogged off all our Frigates!

[scribbler614]

Before you all go blaming the dumb journos, BBC or otherwise, I'd just point out that MOD press office have been trying to tell anyone who'll listen that Norwegians scrambled their non-existent F15s to intercept.
Having glanced at this thread I smugly pointed out that they were talking bolleaux, which they eventually conceded was indeed the case. Praise the Lord for Prune.:ok:

Have a sneaking admiration for the Russians.
When did Marham last get an eight-ship formation airborne, just to go and wind up another country for a laugh?
When did the RAF last get an eight-ship airborne, for that matter?
(Reds excluded)

[nomorethanbablue]

Indeed - the original copy stated the Norwegian aircraft were F-15s. A sharp eyed ex-Air Cadet and Ppruner was able to spot the error before publication on one UK news website.

Similarly also - maybe the MoD press office reads Pprune - as the latest statement included deployment of E3D (from Waddington, hence Sky's confusion) and VC10.

BABlue

[Navy_Adversary]

I can just imagine Nigel in his Speedbird flying merrily along on the great circle route to somwhere like LAX, "WTF, 8 Bears":eek: " I Must stay off the magic mushrooms with lunch":)

[Navy_Adversary]

B Sky B are just as bad, said Tornados launched against 8 Bears and showed Typhoons.:8

[Avitor]

The Ruskies are a bit oil greedy ATM, perhaps they are checking that nobody is grubbing up their flag from the bottom of the Arctic ocean! :hmm:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Scribbler : Valley do it every couple of months for the grad flypast! As do Linton... both 9 ships with whip actually....

[ChristiaanJ]

.... perhaps they are checking that nobody is grubbing up their flag from the bottom of the Arctic ocean!If so, doesn't say much for their navigation skills, does it ?

[The AvgasDinosaur]

8 Bears rumbling across the north sea, (what a sound track !!) Doesn't frighten me half as much as a nuke armed B52. Given the operators history of friendly fire accidents
Be lucky
David

[Stitchbitch]

Wasn't that only discovered by the maintainers after the cab had landed? Gotta love USAF!:}
(refering to news story about nuke armed B52 that crossed the USA and landed without the crews knowledge that they were carrying nukes...how does that happen?
'Er, they weren't listed on the F700...' ???:ugh:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2007-09-05-b-52_N.htm

[Fox3snapshot]

Not dumb questions mate, and certainly worth some explanation.

As has been mentioned from previous comments in this thread, military forces around the world operate under various forms of 'Due Regard' which in my 10+ years of exposure to them through US/Coalition operations here in the Middle East assimilate more to "Due Dis-regard", but that's another story.

Essentially this traffic operates in International waters and ultimately have no requirement (and typically don't!) comply with many of the conventions of worldwide aviation. This includes both Communications and Navigation.

The most significant B52, B1 and B1 operations for GW2 originated in Diego Garcia, Oman, and Qatar. Prior to the official commencement of operations in the Iraq and Afghan theaters, these aircraft operated heavy due regard ops through the Middle East region, simulating mission profiles etc. Once hostilities officially got under way, the GCC states established formal transit lanes and basic procedures for achieving the objectives of the coalition states. If however, and it did/does happen that these privileges are removed then the respective acft will continue the mission due regard and remain clear of the objecting states.

On a daily basis in this FIR we have the US P3 ops operating 'Due Regard' and if I was to say it provides an extremely unsafe and difficult ATC environment with the levels of the civil traffic and military we endure, I would be underestimating the problem.

The Russians are conducting a typical and under international conventions, legal, projection of force not unlike the US and Coalition Forces do here in the ME, its just that it is on your doorstep so it is making the news. :ooh:

[trap one]

How do the Russian Bears navigate through the airline tracks without hitting another aircraft. Of course, they use radar and as I understnd it, they do have the kit on board.
But,........isnt it the norm to keep your transmitting gear quiet, such as radars etc so;
A) the otherside doesnt know your comming and,
Yes and no. you don't use the War frequencies and you can limit your power output so that the "enemy" doesn't know your full capability.
B) the less time you transmit, means the less time the other side has to enalyse your electronic signature.
You don't simply broadcast over the full area your radar can. You "squirt" it in the direction you want to look. Also you can on certain aircraft interrogate the othersides IFF so you can see them but they don't know you're there.
Lastly, with the big B-52 raids on Iraq that were launched from the UK, a map shows they have to transverse significant western European Airspace.
How were they separated from the civi traffic, such as close to the UK etc.
Does ATC get a flight plan and ony certain ATCO's know about the plan and handle the military traffic.
ATC gets a flightplan to a certain point. Once the A/C reached that point then they transfer to either Military ATC controllers or to Tactical agencies such as Mobile radars, E3/E2, ships etc. Then once they have dropped they go back to the point that the Flight plan starts again at to Free Call ATC whilst still under "control" of the Tactical agency.
All this is done as part of the "ACO" or Air Control Order. It sets out all the route's heights, areas to avoid etc that will be used in the operation. A limited portion of this will go to the Civil ATC units usually that bit which is in their area.
:ok:

[ChristiaanJ]

I would think there is a fair amount of "covert" coordination between Mil flight ops and civil ATC.
Fair enough that our ATC friends don't want to discuss all of that.....

But considering the "negative publicity" a mid-air or even a near-miss would cause, I would think you can be quite sure they do talk to each other.

[rotornut]

Arctic exercise:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/03/warctic103.xml

BTW during the Cold War a USAF radar op told me both sides penetrated each other's airspace on a regular basis on the West/East German border. It was a little game to see if the enemy was paying attention (which it certainly was!)

[Faithless]

Everybody worried about Russian Bombers carring nukes :bored:This worries me more:eek:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6981483.stm

[coolblackcat]

I find the BBC online news much more detailed then others:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6981541.stm - 8 bear issue

The surprise factor doesn't have to come from radar stealth or lack of a flight plan; the BBC news stated that the two 'July bears' "strayed south from their routine patrol pattern off the Norwegian coast and headed towards Scotland."
They just simply "forgot" to mention the some details of their intentions in their flight plan.

No-one not even Russia would want a nuclear war - it's pointless, it would be like shooting yourself in the foot.Quite true; one of the points Ronald Reagan pointed out to the Soviet Union to end the Cold War.

Everybody worried about Russian Bombers carring nukes :bored:This worries me more:eek:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6981483.stm

I bet more of these "accidents" happen all the time.

In my opinion, Putin is acting like some small (and hairy) child desperately looking for attention. Well, I must admit that it's working; Russia's first time on the front pages for some time now.
What I would like to know is the next bear's reaction if no Scramble satisfies their call for attention. A small child (hairy or not) would get frustrated.

[Mike6567]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPn1gj7fgYk

[ORAC]

As a matter of scale, we have this, and other threads, running on the inceased activity by the Russian Air Force, which is of no strategic importance whatsoever.

In the meantime, we ignore the death of another 2 servicemen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6982727.stm), and the decision not to buy mine-resistant vehicles (http://defenceoftherealm.*************/2007/09/deliberate-and-brutal-decision.html). RIP

[danieloakworth]

Not ignored, but this is after all an aviation forum, and there's very little positive aviation news to speak of at present. Good effort by the F3's, everyones quick to slag them off, good to see them doing a fine job.

[Yeller_Gait]

Orac,

You are quite correct; what is happening in the ME should be far more newsworthy that a few Bears coming south.

The fact is that there is a Russian destroyer on a port visit to the Clyde, here for a wreath laying ceremony on Saturday, which has gone un-noticed. RAF PR are making a big song and dance about the fact that a few Russian aircraft are flying in international airspace somewhere near the UK, so as to justify the existence of the F3/Typhoon/E-3D fleet and UKADGE.

As to the supposition that the Russian aircraft may be carrying nukes .... b@!!@cks. Even in the more-recent of the cold war days I very much doubt it (That is about as far back as my experience goes).

Why do we get so concerned whenever the Russians come anywhere near us, what does anyone think they are going to do? A political show of strength for the Russian public at most.

The Russians never showed a huge amount of interest whenever we were in their back yard, Navy or RAF.

Y_G

[danieloakworth]

RAF PR are making a big song and dance about the fact that a few Russian aircraft are flying in international airspace somewhere near the UK, so as to justify the existence of the F3/Typhoon/E-3D fleet and UKADGE.

Nothing wrong with that. QRA have barely turned an operational wheel in 17 years, and we can see the result in the massive dilution of AD assets. So now there is some activity, absolutely nothing wrong with reminding the country that there is still a requirement to poice our skies and defend our shores. Had it been the mighty SHAR you can bet your bottom dollar the Navy PR people would have made a much bigger fuss.

[harrogate]

At least one of the 4 Tonkas called PAN during today's sortie.

3.5 ship?

[reynoldsno1]

How do the Russian Bears navigate through the airline tracks without hitting another aircraft
We used to operate in the Med & North Atlantic "due regard" flying through airways at night with no lights on, no flight plan. Intermediate levels, interrogator on, no worries ... for us anyway, but then again, no-one else knew we were there, so no worries for them either...:E

[harrogate]

And if you're looking for a media goof of uber proportions, look no further than Calendar news... footage of a French Mirage, no less!

http://www.itvlocal.com/yorkshire/news/

About 3:20 in, but it'll change when the next bulletin's up, so this link will only be valid for a few hours.

[coolblackcat]

Why do we get so concerned whenever the Russians come anywhere near us, what does anyone think they are going to do? A political show of strength for the Russian public at most.
I doubt "we" worry at all.
The Spanish news and chat programs rabbit on about Russian conspiracies, but we all know that Putin is just messing around.
I know it's not good to lower one's guard, but I think I'll make an exception this time, as I can't possible imagine a T96 Bear dropping anything near us.

[Fox3snapshot]

'I would think there is a fair amount of "covert" coordination between Mil flight ops and civil ATC.'

Ummm, you must be joking, the entertaining thing is that 80% + of a Mil flight in the ME theater is conducted in civil airspace and trust me we do not conduct any liaison with the military authorities unless they come over and simply say "shkoomer" is not allowed through!

The reality is the less people involved the better, very similar to any organizational environment...:rolleyes:

[brickhistory]

Everybody worried about Russian Bombers carring nukes This worries me more

So an embarrassement of monumental proportions but of little danger 'worries' you more. That speaks volumes, sir.

I bet more of these "accidents" happen all the time.

Depending on what your definition of "all the time" is, no, they don't.

[Kitbag]

Any truth in the rumour that the E3D delayed for 30 mins waiting for crew rations? :\

[The Adjutant]

Good to see Ivan down these parts again, gives everybody else a reminder of why we need an air force.
Who out there remembers intercepting using the T64 console and the T80 radar at SaxaVord with Lightnig F6 from Leuchars, Victor tankers and no AEW at all (even before the Shac AEW2). We used to record our intercepts on the "Order of the Red Star" board in the Ops Room. My name is there 16 times. I wonder what happened to the board when they closed the site to controllers and made it a remote.
I went on a liasion trip to the Faeroes site while at Saxa Vord, and to get there the route was fly Logan Air to Sumburgh, then to London, fly London to Copenhagen. Night stop there, fly to Stavanger and then to Faroes. I could have rowed there quicker in a small boat. (Well not rearly but you know what I mean). They managed to get me as drunk as I have ever been.
All good fun.

[coolblackcat]

I bet more of these "accidents" happen all the time.

All I meant to say is that unknown sorties with unknown equipment must be moved around all the time, all over the globe (not just the USA). I imagine that it wouldn't be very convenient to tell the world about many military activities that have to take place, for obvious reasons.

[Lima Juliet]

Yeller Gait

As to the supposition that the Russian aircraft may be carrying nukes .... b@!!@cks. Even in the more-recent of the cold war days I very much doubt it (That is about as far back as my experience goes).


Did you bother looking at the recent YouTube video posted just 3 posts ahead of yours? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPn1gj7fgYk

That isn't a fibreglass canoe in the bomb bay! It might not be nuke-tipped but it could be test-fired in "International Airspace" using "clear range procedures". An AS-15 would make a better target than a Jindavik for a QRA jet. The range of the missile is more important than the presence of the Bear - think about it.

Kitbag

I believe that the E-3 was up before our interceptors - rations or no rations.

Harrogate

I heard the F3 making a pan - but I thought he was for running low on fuel (hardly an unserviceable jet is it?). I heard him go into Lossie.

Let's stop back biting and thank the Lord that this has all come in front of Planning Round (PR) 08 at HQ Air. I thought we were going to finally going to succumb to the Army's wish of the RAF becoming a RW/FW grunt transporter fleet - I guess they'll need to rethink now!

I wonder how much CAS has paid Vladimir Putin?:ok:

LJ

[Art Field]

I think this comes as food for thought material for the "we will never need to do that ever again" brigade. We knew we would, we said we would, we have and we will again. FSTA when?

Well done all.

[Sudden Stop]

Who out there remembers intercepting using the T64 console and the T80 radar at SaxaVord with Lightnig F6 from Leuchars...

I hope they've updated their intelligance recently. Wouldn't want them bombing the brewery thinking there was still a radar station there!!

[Evening Star]

If you had any doubt that it is all for propaganda purposes na Rossiya, read this from today's Kommersant (http://www.kommersant.com/p-11359/Bomber_intercept_/).;)

And that is my visa withdrawn...

[The AvgasDinosaur]

For all their efforts they haven't managed to flush out any Typhoons yet. They keep getting Tornados for their trouble.
Be lucky
David

[ORAC]

For all their efforts they haven't managed to flush out any Typhoons yet. They keep getting Tornados for their trouble.
Be lucky
David

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_enl_1187768437/img/1.jpg

[PingDit]

T64 console? T80 radar? - yep, remember them well, but at RAF Bawdsey before I remustered to aircrew! Good kit -T80 had a mercury arc rectifier producing 7Kv. It was a glass valve about 2' radius with an 'exciter' boucing around on top of 2 gallons of mercury - sparks were everywhere!
Sorry, thread drift etc.....
I believe the E3D was airborne before the Bears took off!

PD

[PingDit]

oh, ... and another thing.....
Have you noticed the Russian press are now quoting from the Sun?
(£160,000 to get the Tornado's airborne...)

[grumpyoldb]

Maybe they're just trying to bankrupt the RAF..............???

[GeeRam]

Maybe they're just trying to bankrupt the RAF..............???
Won't take long then........:E

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Maybe they're just trying to bankrupt the RAF


So we can join the (morally) bankrupt government:E
Oops-not aviation related:O
Well done chaps, keep the Russkies away:D

[coolblackcat]

Well, how much must the Russians be spending to do these 17 hour sorties?!

Scares me more now that i'm saving up for uni....

[4mastacker]

Ah Bawdsey! Remember 2 FC's,who were with us on a sea-angling trip, getting quite excited about a couple of Bears that had ventured quite a way down south the day before, instead of concentrating on the fishing!!

[Green Meat]

Well, it's only fair I suppose. Ronny Reagan went to a great deal of effort bankrupting the Soviet Union in weapons races during the Cold War, only fair that the other side want their turn :ok:

Shame the Bears didn't come down the North Sea, my very secret sources tell me that our best AD assets were on standby to counter. Ready, that is, until the BBMF noticed that their beloved Hurri had gone missing :E

[brickhistory]

Shame the Bears didn't come down the North Sea, my very secret sources tell me that our best AD assets were on standby to counter. Ready, that is, until the BBMF noticed that their beloved Hurri had gone missing

Heard simulcast on 243.0 and 121.5, "takkatakkatakkkatakka....."

[JessTheDog]

Ahh the good old days!

This isn't really that unusual, the Russkies occasionally threw a couple of pairs around the North Cape even in recent years, as I remember from my blissful bunker days. As long as they aren't launching anything....:}

[ChristiaanJ]

Oh shoot.....
The airshow season isn't over yet.

Can't somebody with the right contacts arrange for a flypast of eight Bears with a few Tonkas in attendance?

Leuchars?

[Self Loading Freight]

I fear their l33t sliderule skilz

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Can't somebody with the right contacts arrange for a flypast of eight Bears with a few Tonkas in attendance


Funny thing.
In a previous life I was Secretary to the RAF Participation Committee (probably non-existant today) whose prime role was to approve military aircraft participation at air shows. The Chairman would not even debate my suggestion that the Luftwaffe be invited to participate in the annual B of B at home days. Completely inappropriate, he spluttered.
So unless the 21st Century RAF has leaders of vision, I guess there's no chance.

ps. The same Committee also banned participation of the "Soviet Bloc" air forces at the first Greenham Common Airshow.:confused:

[Climebear]

Oh shoot.....
The airshow season isn't over yet.
Can't somebody with the right contacts arrange for a flypast of eight Bears with a few Tonkas in attendance?
Leuchars?
No airshow at Leuchars this year as there is a large number of JCBs etc all over the runway.
There is, in its place, a Charity Ball (http://http://www.airshow.co.uk/) tonight that will be start with a fly past by BBMF followed by an F3 - no Bears though.

[glad rag]

Funny thing.
In a previous life I was Secretary to the RAF Participation Committee (probably non-existant today) whose prime role was to approve military aircraft participation at air shows. The Chairman would not even debate my suggestion that the Luftwaffe be invited to participate in the annual B of B at home days. Completely inappropriate, he spluttered.

In my final year in the service, as per norm, the RAF Leuchars airshow Friday's practice coincided with the stations family's day.
So as the oldest daughter was happily terrorising herself on some extreme fairground ride, I and some other F4 relics, were watching entranced at the Luftwaffe F4 display, the bit he gets really close to the ground, 130 degree bank at @50' over our heads when a reheat blows out and we get to see the control surfaces (rudder etc) all being kicked in by the jockey as he continues his phab display with 1&1/2 engines....:D

Some things you dont forget!

[Green Flash]

Blinders, Backfires, Blackjacks (oh, allright, White Swan) amongst others, or do you mean other countrys?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Regarding the participation of "inappropriate" air forces, I omitted to say that, thankfully, "At Home Day" organisors thoughtfully failed to hear the words of the "participation committee" and went ahead with their Luftwaffe contacts. Likewise the secretary of said committee, arranged for "non available" assets to route through the original Greenham Common Airshows- not participate,as such - and it became the biggest military show outside of the States. Russian Bears, or whatever, at UK Military airshows need not be an impossibility.
Sorry for thread creep, I suppose I'm just a little jealous that I wasn't an air defender and never got the chance to look the "enemy" in the eye.:*

[NutherA2]

Civobs

curious to know if we had/get any visitors other than the bears?
18 September 1972, on JMOPS from the not-so-secret Fife airbase, we intercepted 2 x Bison and “escorted” them from somewhere north of the Shetlands as they flew south to about 30 nm east of Hull. They then turned north & politely dropped us off at Bell Rock. This was convenient as we had just reached joker (4h 20 min airborne) and this position was within the radius of action of the IAF Lightning which scrambled to take over the task.

[ORAC]

curious to know if we had/get any visitors other than the bears? Up north of Saxa we'd get Badgers if they came far enough south, plus they used to send Elint Coots down to gather data every now and then.

There was also a period, when they'd lost a Bear F and grounded the fleet for a while, that they used the May far further south than usual and we intercepted the odd one or two.

[NutherA2]

Up north of Saxa we'd get Badgers if they came far enough southORAC, was this fun day out during your time?

On 28 April 1970, from the same Fife airbase, we were tasked (non-IAF) to fly north & see if we could find any Soviet aircraft known to be on exercise. No AAR available, but I managed 2 x individual Bears & a formation of 12 x Badgers.

[Lima Juliet]

If its a Blackjack (White Swan) you never know who will be at the controls...

http://www.sme.sk/cdata/2350147/20050822001_MAKS.jpg

http://www.sme.sk/cdata/2350147/20050822002_MAKS.jpg

...anyone recognise him?:}

LJ

[Maple 01]

Isn't he the one that posed for some homoerotic photos in the great Russian outdoors a week or so back? Er......Boris Something......? Looks ex KGB to me....

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=75353/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=0.html

BTW First class pilot badge? Is he a WALT?

[BOAC]

and this position was within the radius of action of the IAF Lightning which scrambled to take over the task. - that's quite enough of that, Sir, or we'll have to meet behind the hangar.:)

FYI we could EASILY make Bell Rock and have 10 mins fuel in hand.

[trap one]

The RNorAF have taken some and released said Pics on the net. So I know there are some out there.

[rab-k]

I can recall the case of the KC135 crew who mis-I-D'd a Blackjack as a Lancer - an easy mistake to make, given he was looking up his tail-pipes at the time :eek:

Caution, vortex wake, recommended spacing, ermm...:E

If anyone asks, I was never here... ;)

[ACW599]

Dear Captain Ivan

Next time you come close to the UK in your Bear, see if you can find the top-secret location known only as "SJ 328150". No-one in the RAF can find it.

I'll give you a clue: N52°43’42” W002°59’48” (52.72842N 2.99677W).

Хорошее везение!

[AonP]

Bear and F3 pic in The Sun, which also unusually gives RAF Boulmer a credit!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007410791,00.html

Also, I wonder if there will be a visit tonight, depending on the outcome of a certain football match?!

[Jetex Jim]

Bear and F3 pic in The Sun, which also unusually gives RAF Boulmer a credit!
Good for them,
However JOHN KAY Chief Reporter also wrote:
The Russian jets, flying in four pairs

[Green Flash]

The Russian jets, flying in four pairs
Wellll, it could be argued that the turboprop is a jet (with a fan on the front) but I take your point. Mind you, if you told the average Sun reader that the Bear is powered by Dilithium crystals they would probably believe you .....

[harrogate]

Aren't they?

[Green Flash]

Harrogate

Shhh, I thought I'd got away with that! And don't tell anyone that the JSF will have the new Infinity drive too. Walls have ice cream, don't you know, what!

Oh, that's interesting, a black Omega has just de-cloaked outside .....

[ChristiaanJ]

Well.... we will never hear from Green Flash again.
The Men in Black have found him.

[stickmonkeytamer]

After the football result tonight, expect the invasion in the morning...:ok:

SMT

[Flap62]

ACW,
Why have you got a Spoonrest in your garden?

[Wycombe]

ACC,

What I was wondering was, did they move the English/Welsh border just for you?

If you have the borders showing in Google Earth, it seems to kink around your property!

[ExJAFAD]

We used to record our intercepts on the "Order of the Red Star" board in the Ops Room. My name is there 16 times. I wonder what happened to the board when they closed the site to controllers and made it a remote.

The Adjutant,

The order of the Red Star was displayed in the hallway just before you entered the dome pride of place with photos from the storm damage (when the dome and Radar were damaged). I beleieve the room used to be the Radar watch office was turned into a T Bar. It was there when the RRH closed I have no idea where it went to next.

Bear in mind Saxa Vord is now a Holiday Resort!!!!!! Don't believe me then Google it.

EJ

[ACW599]

>Why have you got a Spoonrest in your garden?<

I couldn't possibly comment (cough). Off the record, it's a combined Tazcomm jammer and comms antenna for speaking to Captain Ivan when he comes this way.

No, not really. It's just an amateur HF and VHF system.

[BEagle]

So that's where Artichoke has moved to these days.......

[Squirrel 41]

<<Anorak on>>

It might be an F3, but it's still a BEAR-F, so presume that this was annoying a JMC or whatever it's called now.

<<Anorak off>>

S41

[Lima Juliet]

The picture that AonP found in the Sun was taken on a JMC earlier in the year - hence Mr Squirrel is correct.

The only picture from the "8 Bear" day, I believe, is the one below:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00205/AIRCRAFT-385_205776a.jpg

Nice piccy

LJ

[M609]

According to www.vg.no F-16s from Bodø launched just before 0600 this morning to intercept two Tu-160s in international airspace west of Scotland. (!) RAF Tornados did the same according to the same source.

I'm a bit suspicious about the intercept location..... :ouch:

[BEagle]

Well, something VERY noisy launched from Brize at around 0400Z........

Whether 'twas a tanker supporting Q, I know not.

By the way, is the Sam Fox page from the Sun Calendar which we used to take with us on such trips still in Duffy's?

[Green Meat]

Given that the Army are now in charge of our ground-based AD assets, coupled with their reluctance to do anything that isn't hot and sandy or hot and rocky based, I've taken a leaf out of ACW's book. I don't have a Fansong in the back garden (Mrs Green Meat would take a very dim view, just like the time I suggested having a Canberra in the back garden - less to mow, surely?) but I am considering basing the advanced ADGE system known as MILK BOTTLE, often found with the corresponding FIREWORK projectile, in my garden to guard against incursion into our airspace :ok:

[Maple 01]

Is the activation of a FIRE WORK site spot reportable?

[M609]

Regarding first intercept of the Blackjacks on Friday: Apparently they had company from the Bodø QRA in oceanic airspace north-ish of Tromsø/ENTC on their way south.

Emirates on their way to New York got a VID also apparently! :uhoh:

[MrFlibble]

From TheScum's linky:

"RAF crews hold up Sun PAGE THREE GIRLS for Russian approval. A Bear crewman once responded holding a magazine cover showing a tractor.”

Hehe, nice one Ivan :ok:

[PICKS135]

RAF crews hold up Sun PAGE THREE GIRLS for Russian approval. A Bear crewman once responded holding a magazine cover showing a tractor.”

Think I'm working with that guys cousin :eek::eek::eek:

[BEagle]

Perhaps in these PC days, you should hold up the centrefold from either
http://www.earthmoversmagazine.co.uk/ or http://www.classictractormagazine.co.uk/
instead of The Sun's Sam Fox?

[cokecan]

how far south did they go - Bergan, Faroes, Shetland?

what role are the russians using Blackjack for - is it nuclear strike, anti-shipping or conventional land attack?

[Lima Juliet]

what role are the russians using Blackjack for

http://www.vam.ac.uk/images/image/16215-large.jpg

...As aniseed chewy sweets to pull out your fillings! Apparently, PC-ness has not quite reached Russia yet...:}

The Russians call the TU-160 the "White Swan".

LJ

[PPRuNe Radar]

how far south did they go - Bergan, Faroes, Shetland?

Probably about 52N off the West coast of Ireland.

[AonP]

Interesting article and quite accurate - but can anyone confirm if AEW aircraft were used?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/14/wrussia214.xml

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Is that a pop song our one of those amazing Russian military anthems put to alternative music?
Please excuse my ignorance.
Thanks for the link
Be lucky
David

[cokecan]

"Probably about 52N off the West coast of Ireland."

is this true or are you taking the piss?

cheers.

[M609]

The Bodø QRA launched again this morning at 05:20 and established CAP north of Andøya AB. Two Russian aircraft inbound, but they broke off and headed to Iceland, and the QRA returned to Bodø without intercepting.

[PPRuNe Radar]

is this true or are you taking the piss?

Ask the RAF .... they left them around 55N10W to go back and refuel and then intercepted them about 35 minutes later on the way back. So 52N (about) is my guess as to where they got to before turning back.

Or maybe the RAF were taking the piss and there were no Russians there ... just a couple of unexplained primary contacts which they manufactured for us all.

Alternatively, ask the BA Captain who saw them and the escorts as he was vectored clear.

[cokecan]

cheers squire, didn't mean it in a ****ty way, it just seems an awfully long way south.

most grateful though.

[PPRuNe Radar]

No worries, the downside on the internet is that the tone of a post can't be detected easily or might be misinterpreted. No offence taken :ok:

I guess the Irish Air Corps didn't bother to launch against them ;) , though Shannon ATC would probably be able to tell you how far they got South in reality .... or the AWACS crew :cool:

[rab-k]

"52N"

Used to be Cuba in the good ol' days :E

[safetypee]

Yes, in the old days, – Lightnings holding Northern Q and scarcity of tankers (adherence to the ‘fool’ line), long range Bear Ops were routine. In addition to ‘fleet exercises’ where the presence of any aircraft carrier attracted monitoring attention and occasionally ‘dummy’ attack runs, several Bears would go to Gibraltar to monitor a changeover of the US 6th fleet. Also, there was the 4-yearly 12 ship bear run to the US East coast on 20 Jan (an American will tell you why). You could finish a full mess dinner between these out and back interception sorties.

[M609]

20 Jan

It might cause a bit consternation in certain US bunkers if if they penetrated the US ADIZ on that day... :}