JAA PPL currency?

[Kengineer-130]

Hi chaps,
just a quick question regarding currency for a JAA PPL, is the minimum requirement still 20 hours in 2 years? I did 25 hours hour building after passing my PPL in Florida, but it was on a student permit as obviously I did not get my PPL until I arrived home. Are theese hours valid, or do I have to do 20 before my 2 year point from passing my PPL? What are the ramifications if I do not complete 20 hours before my 2 year point,is it another skills test? :eek: .... Any advice most welcome :ok:

[foxmoth]

A search would have found the numerous posts on this :ugh: - AFAIK there never has been a 20 hour in 2 year requirement. What is needed is 12 hours in the year before expiry to include 6hrs P1 and a 1 hour flight with an instructor, it then needs signing off by an examiner before expiry. If this is not achieved it can be done by test.:hmm:

[Kengineer-130]

i'm sure a search would have done... but if everytime a subject was just searched instead of a new post, no one would ever post..... :rolleyes:
but thanks for the input :ok:

[Whopity]

I did 25 hours hour building after passing my PPL in Florida, but it was on a student permit as obviously I did not get my PPL until I arrived home.

So you flew without a Licence or Certificate! I trust every flight was authorised by a FAA CFI as a student solo. Unfortunately it is of no use for revalidating the JAA PPL that you did not have.

[FormationFlyer]

Alternatively you could have just read LASORS section F class rating renewal and revalidation...available from www.caa.co.uk
ho hum.
and the PPL Initials Skills Test and the SEP Class Rating LPC/LST are not the same thing in case you are thinking you must redo the whole thing again. The later is about 1hr with the former more like 2.5hrs.
And whoppity is correct the hours wont count - as they wont have been done in the 12months preceeding expiry.

[Captain Jock]

I continue to be amazed at the number of PPLs who have passed the Air Law Exam but still do not know the requirements for maintaining their licence!

[BEagle]

"......after passing my PPL in Florida......"

Perhaps there's a clue there, Cap'n Jock?

[Dried ears]

Jeez, the guy was only asking, and in fact got the answer he was looking for, among all the stone throwing. Give the guy a break, he just saved himself the joy of trawling through lasors, or re reading his law notes, by asking here someone who knows and who could give him a quick and, as it happens, accurate answer to a simple question.

I bet there are a few others who read and benefitted from the question being raised again too...

[P.Pilcher]

It was a jolly sight simpler before the days of the b**dy JAA!

What was it Ron Campbell said when asked if we should introduce a biennial flight revue as they do in the U.S.A.?
It was to the effect that there is no valid statistical evidence to show that U.S. PPL's have a better accident record than we do without the flight revue.

R.I.P. Ron, you must get fed up with turning in your grave!!

P.P.

[BillieBob]

But then the PPL world would never have been affected by all this JAA cr@p had it not been for the efforts of AOPA, led by....who?

[Kengineer-130]

I find that quite offensive actually BEagle :ugh: :mad: , What the hell has where I trained got to do with a simple question like this?? The fact that I have been away with my job in the falklands and to other desert s*it holes for the vast majority of the last year and a half means I have hardly had chance to fly at all, and apart from the fact that I asked a perfectly simple question that is only a tiny tiny tiny part of what I learnt 18 months ago is hardly a major failing in my training is it?? :ugh: - and the main reason I asked is rarther than go and buy a £20 text book or drive to a suitable training school, I can simply ask the supposedly friendly and helpful people on here...... especially as in 18 months there may well have been a chage in the currency requirements :rolleyes: ...Wish I hadn't botherd now, and if you have any justification for the rarther uncalled for comment on me obtaining my PPL in Florida I would be delighted to hear it...... I have had 3 instructors in the UK, and I can say hand on heart the Instructor I had in the USA was excellent and set me very high standards....
The fact that It cost me half of what it would in the UK is just a bonus....

[BEagle]

No reflection on you, just a reflection on the standard of theoretical knowledge training you clearly received - or perhaps didn't. Specifically in Air Law and Operational Procedures.

It's not just a 'learn/dump' process to pass exams, you do NEED to retain much of the knowledge.

And why should people on here spoon-feed those who cannot be bothered to look things up in LASORS, which is completely FREE OF CHARGE to download?

[2close]

The problem 'these days' is that a significant number of people (well, those I've talked to at least) don't even learn the material in the first place.

Since the appearance on the market of 'The PPL Confuser', 'The IMC Confuser' and the numerous on-line Question Banks now floating about a lot of folks find it a lot easier and more convenient to simply learn the Q's and A's than spend hours in their already over-stretched lives studying subject material that they believe they are never going to need to use.

A lad sitting alongside me on the ATPL Brush-Up happily admitted that he had passed the first set of ATPL exams by using the on-line QB alone, as have many others.

Agree with it or not, it is what is happening and some of the fault must be apportioned to those that make statements (in these forums as well as anywhere else) along the lines of "the majority of it is unnecessary and you'll never need to use it. Just make sure you learn your TR material". If I had a pound for every time I've heard that! Student PPLs hear that as well as potential CPL / ATPLs and if that is the advice coming from 'the experts' well who can fault them for taking it?

Hopefully, our friend Kengineer-130 managed to find plenty of time in amongst the hours of inactivity (punctuated by relatively short episodes of excitement / panic) whilst sat on Fraggle Rock, the Sandpit or any other dusty, dry environments that Mr Bliar and our wonderful government has forced us into, to read up on his notes.

However, to chastise him for asking a simple question, however bone, is wrong and it forces me to point out that:

There are never any stupid questions, just stupid answers.

The question could have been answered by one simple response, not a tirade of put-downs.

Here we go Kengineer-130, have a read, free of charge, of Section F (pdf Pages 242 - 243)

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_07.pdf

Also JAR FCL 1 (pdf Pages 93 - 94):

http://jaa.nl/publications/jars/607069.pdf

HTH

2close

[RVR800]

Dont take it personally

Anything to do with Florida PPLs drives BEagle mad...

[BEagle]

Watch this space if EASA gets its way regarding training in non-EU states.....

[foxmoth]

The question could have been answered by one simple response, not a tirade of put-downs.

Well he got the simple response from me, but with the bit about searching because this must be the most frequently asked question on Pprune and is also probably one of the bits in Air Law that most instructors will make sure they have covered - I usually cover it at exam stage and at the end of the PPL course.

[VFE]

Most guys who pitch up at the FTO where I work require at least 5 hours instructional flying before even being considered ready to be signed off solo..... most require more before they themselves feel comfortable flying over here.

It is a simple fact: JAA PPL training in the USA does not prepare a pilot adequately enough to fly in the UK.

VFE.

[2close]

Anything to do with Florida PPLs drives BEagle mad...

I don't think he's the only one - there are numerous UK aviators who have the same viewpoint.

But surely the same argument applies in that, as there are good and bad JAA FIs there will be good and bad FAA FIs and similarly there will be some FAA FIs who are better than some JAA FIs and vice versa. Their respective outputs are surely going to vary.

I have done both FAA and JAA PPLs and personally I think the FAA Skills Test was more demanding than the JAA. More flying skills were tested, e.g. Short Field and Soft Field TO/LDGs and X-Wind Landings, the pre-flight planning was more demanding (although facilities were a far sight easier to access than in the UK at the time - saying that we in the UK have come on leaps and bounds over the past few years) and the oral examination was quite in depth (for PPL level). Of course, this may be the exception to the rule but I can only comment from personal experience.

I personally would never say that any pilot is going to be any better than any other just because he has undertaken a particular syllabus. Maybe some feel that the FAA syllabus is lacking but I remain to be convinced of that allegation - it seems to work for what it's designed to do. No, I think I will judge each person on their own demonstrated abilities.

I know of a JAA PPL who turned up in the USA to undertake a FAA CPL IR and his flying was atrocious, no, downright dangerous - I had the regrettable experience of riding in the back seat with him flying....just the once, which was enough for me but I was assured by others that what I witnessed was the norm not the exception.

As for EASA writing off overseas training, of course I don't know but I somehow doubt that will happen....well, I will be surprised if it does. There may be too many high profile interested parties (with extensive lobbying power) that may stand to lose considerable amounts of money if this was to happen........unless of course the cost of aviation in the EU was to reduce (and I'm not going to hold my breath on that one). In any case (and I stand to be educated here) what difference does a location make to learning primary flying skills?

Well, that's my head well and truly over the top of the parapet. Stand by for incoming..........

Just one small, insy winsy request.....adult discussion not abuse, please!!

EDIT - I do however agree with VFE that people who undertake the FAA syllabus aren't prepared for flying in the UK and that a certain amount familiarity and RT training is definitely required. I know that I did.

[Kengineer-130]

to quote VFE "Most guys who pitch up at the FTO where I work require at least 5 hours instructional flying before even being considered ready to be signed off solo..... most require more before they themselves feel comfortable flying over here.

It is a simple fact: JAA PPL training in the USA does not prepare a pilot adequately enough to fly in the UK.

VFE."

Yep I totally agree, it is only common sense to aquaint yourself with the differences in airspace/ procedures and phraseology of european R/T, but IMHO the money you have saved actually learning just to FLY the aircraft , is paid off twice over by having to do a few hours brush-up back in blighty, and they then count as currency hours as well :ok: - Can never do too much training is what I say, always somthing new to learn :) ....

I feel quite sad that all the people who achived thier PPL in Florida or whatever other place they did it all get tarred by the same brush, I had a number of lessons in the uk before I went to the USA, and I completed the JAA sylabus over there not the FAA one. With regards to the groundschool, I can remember most things, not at all learn and dump, but with any skill/ knowledge, it soon gets rusty if it is not used :( , and that has nothing at all to do with where you trained, it is simple human nature, and to be honest the grounschool I recived out in the states was delivered by someone who was VERY passionate about his subjects, and always made sure we actualy learnt how AND why things get done they way they are :ok: , I can't imagine how difficult it would have been doing it learn and dump, yes ok the exams could have been passed, but what happens when it comes to applying the knowlege?? ...

All I can say is I can't wait to get some flying in, I drove home this morning at 5am, and the skys were gorgeous, I was dreaming about being up there :(

[VFE]

2close,

The quality of instruction is not the issue when it comes to learning in the States, it is the differnces in RT, airspace and other operational procedures that makes it an exercise in futility if your aim is to come back to the UK and fly straight away.

VFE.

[2close]

I agree with you, VFE, but it does seem that an element also exists within the UK that automatically tars people who have been to the USA to learn how to fly with the 'crap' brush. I have heard it so many times that it has gone well past the isolated case.

[BEagle]

One of the Floridian habits a pilot just back from a quickie-PPL course exhibited was a little surprising... In a steady climb, to clear the area behind the aircraft's nose, instead of turning slightly, then regaining the original climb heading, he simply pushed forward on the control column. Apparently that's what he was taught.

Does anyone else perform such an odd manoeuvre in the climb?

Speeds were all wrong as well - about 10 kts fast on the approach and using the correct approach speed as a 'threshold speed' - hence a float in an untrimmed state.

[2close]

Yes, Beagle, that's what I was taught during the FAA PPL.

In the climb, every 1000', lower the nose to the level flight attitude, carry out a scan from L to R then regain the climb attitude. Accept the speed gain with no trimming as it is a temporary change in attitude.

As I was taught by a former UK CAA FI (pre JAA days) I was shown both clearing manouevres and as a student found the FAA way easier and more comfortable.

I have now adapted my flying to the JAA way and carry out the left and right clearing manouevres but I think I still prefer the FAA way.

It is far better than the method I regularly see employed and that is a constant climb attitude with NO clearing manouevres whatsoever - usually far too affixed to the GPS !!:ugh:

I'd be interested to hear anyone's views on the pros and cons of both.....no, let's widen the argument, FAA, JAA and NONE - there must be someone out there who advocates no requirement for clearing in the climb. I would kick off but the surface of the black lagoon is stirring and she needs a lift to work.;)

[BEagle]

Well, I feel that disturbing the aircraft from its trimmed state, reducing the climb rate and increasing speed whilst holding an out-of-trim condition are very poor techniques to teach a student. Also, the attitude change may not be sufficient for the pilot to see someone climbing at a faster rate from below. Whereas turning towards an area which is positively clear, then returning to the desired climb heading, allows a full clearance of the area ahead to be conducted.

But better anything than nothing, I suppose!

[foxmoth]

to clear the area behind the aircraft's nose, instead of turning slightly, then regaining the original climb heading, he simply pushed forward on the control column.
Something I see frequently, especially as I do a lot of advanced PPL work. I normally show them turns and debrief as to why I think these are better, at the end of the day though this method is safe and if people choose to keep their own technique I do not fight it (most change to turns), as said, at least they are doing something. As far as comfort goes I find gentle turns much more comfortable than nose down/nose up.

[BigGrecian]

I have done both FAA and JAA PPLs and personally I think the FAA Skills Test was more demanding than the JAA.

As a British instructor based in the US providing JAA and FAA training - I state without any hesitation that the standard of FAA pilots is lower than JAA pilots, and that the FAA average pilot may know more but won't fly as well as a JAA PPL.
The JAA pilots who go back to the UK sub-standard are being encouraged by the CAAs lack of control over examination standards (particuarly at CPL level).
The CAA only has itself to blame.

[hekokimushi]

Hi.

I got my JAA-PPL back in July 2005 issued by the CAA with 45 hours. then i logged a further 22 hours in the UK and France. then i stopped flying in Europe. Late 2006 i began flying again in Australia and have logged about 180 hours with P1 and PUT time. now, would my hours done in Australia be counted for the 12 hours in a year, 5 TO and LDG requirements?

regards
nelson

[BEagle]

Assuming it's SEP Class flying and you've got a SEP Class Rating, then yes.

But you will also need to have flown a 1 hr training flight with a FI(A) or CRI(A) authorised under JAR-FCL and to have had your licence signed by a FE authorised under JAR-FCL before July 2007 in order for your SEP Class Rating to be revalidated.

[Boyceyboy]

OK all you very clever people, here's one for you that even has the instructors at my flying school scratching their heads!
I qualified in UK with a UK CAA PPL (A) back in the 90s. I let my licence lapse in 2004 but last year requalified with training and skills test.
So What licence do I hold? PPL (A)? JAA PPL? EASA PPL? and what are my currency requirements? In the old days it was 12 hours in 24 months and no instructor hour, so what is it for me now??

I do hope this genuine enquiry doesn't unleash the barrage of vitriol that I saw on here after a poor chap asked about his training in Florida, I have trawled the CAA website but there is no clear answer!

[Whopity]

I qualified in UK with a UK CAA PPL (A) back in the 90s. I think you have answered your own question, you qualified with a UK PPL so its a National (lifetime)UK PPL(A). JAA licences for aeroplanes were not issued until after July 1999, surely you would know if you ever converted it!

So What licence do I hold? PPL (A)? JAA PPL? EASA PPL?
Unless you converted it, you still hold the original licence! Read the front page, it tells you!

but last year requalified with training and skills test So what paperwork do you have? The old licence, resigned or a new one? If you are still using the original 1990s licence, it will not be valid as it will not have English Laguage Proficiency on it!

Was it processed by the CAA or the Examiner? If it came from the CAA it could be a new format National licence, which no longer has privileges on an EASA aircraft (except LAPL), or it could be a new EASA licence, but that would have involved you applying for a licence conversion, which you would be aware of. Again, look at the front page.

that even has the instructors at my flying school scratching their heads!Sounds like they need some refresher training!

With all the changes we have seen since you obtained your licence, there is a great deal of confusion, numerous incorrect entries in licences, many of which came from the CAA, and a great deal of bad or incorrect advice floating about.
and what are my currency requirements?As these have not changed in the past 16 years, I would have thought your instructors should have known!

As of 1 Jan 2000 all National licences were maintained in accordance with JAR-FCL, this continued beyond JAR into EASA and can be sumarised as follows:
(b) Revalidation of single-pilot single-engine class ratings.
(1) Single-engine piston aeroplane class ratings and TMG ratings. For revalidation
of single-pilot single-engine piston aeroplane class ratings or TMG class
ratings the applicant shall:
(i) within the 3 months preceding the expiry date of the rating, pass a
proficiency check in the relevant class in accordance with Appendix 9 to
this Part with an examiner; or
(ii) within the 12 months preceding the expiry date of the rating, complete
12 hours of flight time in the relevant class, including:
– 6 hours as PIC;
– 12 take-offs and 12 landings; and
– refresher training of at least 1 hour with a flight instructor (FI) or a class
rating instructor (CRI). Applicants shall be exempted from this flight if
they have passed a class or type rating proficiency check or skill test
in any other class or type of aeroplane.*
and 90 day recency for the carriage of passengers.

[martin45]

Most guys who pitch up at the FTO where I work require at least 5 hours instructional flying before even being considered ready to be signed off solo..... most require more before they themselves feel comfortable flying over here.

It is a simple fact: JAA PPL training in the USA does not prepare a pilot adequately enough to fly in the UK.

VFE.
Agreed. But I could have passed my test within 3 weeks. I was a natural, pilot when it came to the flying excersises, but the groundschool was a completely different ballgame. We all used the confuser to study. Hindsight should have taught me to do the exams before flying in US. The workload otherwise is extreme. I actually took my test at Southend straight fm Florida and my God was that an eye opener.!! Totally different in all respects. Especially the controlled airspace. If you do fly in the states and come back with your licence, then please, for your sake and others, go up with an instructor to check your flying area and burn your chart into your brain. Yes its more cost, but you will be a better pilot for it...and probably stay alive...I am having to revalidate after 10 yrs absence. More lessons and tests. But I am older now and aware of my lack of flying and will study harder before taking any test...just a note, I am going to Redhill flying club...A fantastic welcome there last week by Laurence the examiner...really put me at ease and friendly to boot...recommended.