Help with EGSY 10 Sheffield

[bigfoot01]

Hi there,

I am a 65ish hour PPL. Went up for a potter this weekend and overshot the runway for EGSY 10. If you are unfamiliar with the run way, you have to fly over Sheffield on the Base Leg. There is no where to go, so I am concious to always make sure I can glide to the run way. At the weekend, there was no wind to help and I over shot. Also the circuit height is 1700ft (which doesn't help, as I am used to 1000ft). Runway 10 is not often in use, and I am starting to get a bit of a thing about. Also, you can't practice circuits at Sheffield. I appreciate a go-around is OK and not the end of the world.

I was just wondering if anybody had any tips generally or specifically for dealing with this run way.

[pumper_bob]

If you were in a typical club 2/4 seater, then i would suggest some circuit work with an instructor at a smaller field. I find it hard to understand how you could use all of 1200meters and not land a Cessna/Piper? Sorry if this sounds sarcastic, but it is a long runway?

[bigfoot01]

A PA28 - thanks, that response makes me feel a lot better. I don't have any problems with standard circuits.

[Comanche250]

Have you tried using he PAPI's? That may help?

[bigfoot01]

There aren't any on Runway 10 and you don't get a very long final anyway (probably part of the problem!)

[Comanche250]

Well there were about 2 weeks ago! Where did they go??? Yeah, short final or not, you should only need 200-400 metres max to get a PA28 down so you could fly a longer final as it were and land futher down the runway if you're worried about flying over sheff. Close the throttle if you're too high? Sideslip?

[bigfoot01]

They are there on Runway 28, you could have a good point that I should just extend my down wind leg to a longer length, I have always been encouraged to turn before the Stadium...

[Chilli Monster]

Bigfoot - I think you're grossly underestimating the glide performance of a PA28 and this is the root of your problem.

If the circuit height is 1700ft then you can fly a normal circuit and still land with the engine out - that is what a normal circuit is.

Try this technique:

Downwind - fuel filler cap along the centre of the runway (normally it's the wingtip, but in Sheffields case the filler cap gets you slightly closer.

When the landing threshold is at 45 degrees over your shoulder, turn base, reduce power, add one stage of flap and trim for 80kts. If you have an engine failure at this point you can still make the airfield. (Not the runway - but the airfield).

Turn final, add second stage of flap. If all is well you should even need to touch the throttle, re-trim for 70 kts.

DO NOT add the final stage of flap until you're sure you can make the runway in the event of an engine failure.

On landing you will probably find you've hardly used the throttle since turning base - thereby proving that if you'd lost the donk you would have made it.

[bigfoot01]

I have to say on my second circuit, I got 3 stages of flap in on the Base Leg. Giving this some consideration, would anybody consider beginning loosing height before turning base? I appreciate you need to be at circuit height at the Downwind leg call....

[Chilli Monster]

I have to say on my second circuit, I got 3 stages of flap in on the Base Leg.

Then I rest my case - you're flying your circuits too close.

[bigfoot01]

When coming in from M1/M18 VRP I do tend to fly as if I am going towards Runway 28 and the 'miss', perhaps my downwind join is too close (I guess it is about the only place I do a down wind join) I will try being a lot further out. Thanks for your help.

[MichaelJP59]

Hi bigfoot, I've landed on 10 a fair few times, but as you say, it's not the usual runway at Sheffield so you don't get much practice, especially as circuits are not allowed.

Other advice is all relevant, especially that there is no need to land on the 10 numbers. In fact if you do you have a very long and boring taxi to the other end, so I nearly always land long deliberately on 10.

Pilot information states circuit height is 1500 feet QFE, or 1700ft QNH, so I start descending on the downwind leg so that the turn to base is relatively normal height for a 1000ft circuit. If you don't do this you'll have to fly a more extended downwind leg over the city than normal.

Anyway we're back on westerlies now so you may have to wait a while to try it again!

[QNH 1013]

May I congratulate you on making the correct decision to go-around when it the approach wasn't going the way you wanted.
If more pilots did that we wouldn't have so many bent aeroplanes and insurance premiums would be lower.
I have seen several aeroplanes written off because the pilots had the mindset that he had to land, even though he was fast/forgotten flaps/trying to land downwind/had an LDA too short for the aircraft and conditions (delete as appropriate; I have seen all these).
Remember, every approach is to a go-around. You only land if everything goes well.
You made the right decision, and carefully thinking about it afterwards shows good airmanship.

[pumper_bob]

I may be wrong, but i am sure the one thing you should never do is decend on down wind? The potential for a conflict is much greater as you can neither see above or below yourself. That is how i seem to remember being taught circuits? Any one know otherwise?
PB.

[MichaelJP59]

I was only talking about descending on the last bit of downwind, but can't see why you should be at any more risk of conflicting with traffic than descending on the base leg? After all, whichever way you do it you'll be descending for the same amount of time.

And any overhead joins would be joining the downwind leg from above anyway.

[Dave Gittins]

Hmmmm .... am not sure that descending on downwind is a good idea.

The usual plan is to climb out on runway heading and then crosswind, leveling at circuit height and turning downwind. At the end of a downwind leg flown level, turn base and start to descend. Lengths of climb and descent being adjusted dependant on how much height to gain / lose (and other traffic etc.) Amount of flap varying too (depends on runway length or whether you want plnty of drag to slow and descent quicker) but I would not have 3 stages down until on finals and certain of making the runway

Any variation from a standard circuit risks putting you where you are not expected, which in the circuit, often with a few machines in reasonably close proximity is not the best place - safety wise - to be.

I agree that any circuit other than your norm takes thought, planning and practise. A 1500 ft circuit will be one.

Years ago I was training at Barton with an 800 foot circuit. On my first landaway at Halfpenny Green, I landed off a 1000 foot circuit - and landed very deep. Only very serious braking kept me out of the far fence.

I learned a few new words from Phil Dean in the RH Seat ..... and I learned a bit more about flying.

An overhead join should not involve joining the downwind from above. You stand a chance that one day you will descend onto an aeroplane you cannot see who is flying level perhaps having joined long downwnd (long downwind meaning well upwind of the airfield.)

An overhead join should cross the downwind well above it, descend dead side to circuit height and fly level crosswind (over the upwind numbers) and turn level onto downwind.

[bigfoot01]

I suppose the main problem with descending on the downwind leg is that anybody who joins base leg (which does happen - while flying around the circuit, I have heard more than once - 'Nothing known to affect') may not be looking in the right place/have reduced visibility, it is an interesting thought, however, I have always been taught that you can set up on Downwind, and begin descending on Base, but the question is, does a non standard circuit require a non-standard flying approach?

I feel a bit better in some respect, it is a high circuit where you try to fly a short down wind. I think I have certainly been flying the curcuit too close and not getting the flap in and power off soon enough. This has been useful for considering the situation. Still not sure about beginning the decent after the downwind call - any other thoughts?

[BackPacker]

bigfoot01, I think you already learned what you needed to learn here. When you fly a high circuit (1500' QFE) and you need to fly a short final for whatever reason (noise, other traffic), you need to put the aircraft in a zero-thrust, high-drag configuration as soon as possible. Particularly if you can't loose any height on downwind.

So throttle all the way back, flaps all the way out and then you turn base. Possibly, if you know how to do it safely (try it with an instructor first), S-turns or sideslips. A PA-28, with its almost square fuselage cross section, will have a lot of drag if sideslipped.

Keep looking at the runway aspect, so you don't undershoot (PAPI helps a lot, if available) and keep your speed up (PA-28 I would aim for at least 80 knots until on the correct glide path, close to the numbers, and then reduce to 65).

I fly from a controlled field where circuit height, depending on the direction you come from, may be 1500" as well. And we do get "cleared to land, expedite vacating, 737 on final" on downwind. And that's in a DA-40, which loses its energy far less quickly than a PA-28, and has far more tendency to bounce when landed too fast.

[Comanche250]

The only non-standard bit about the circuit really is that it is higher than you are used to, circuit height can be anywhere from 500ft to 2000ft so you just have to adjust your perception of what feels right. I would suggest moving out a bit more on the downwind leg and only start descending when on base there's plenty of room and performance. There is really no need to start descending any earlier, get 2 stages of flap down and trimmed and only when on final and assured of reaching the threshold put in full flap but at the heights we are talking about you are pretty much assured of that anyway! If you are still high, land a bit further into the runway. As backpacker says, sideslip the a/c, you might not have enough room to s-turn but if it all goes pear-shaped, as you rightly did beforehand, go around. Alternatively, get a twin rating :}

[waldopepper42]

Also, you can't practice circuits at Sheffield.

True enough.

But.... is there anywhere else that would allow you to practise non-standard (high) circuits on a quiet day? Is it worth asking Sturgate, N. Coates, where have you? if they can accomodate you?

Sheffield has the natural barrier of the hills surrounding the airport (I think this is the reason for the unusually high circuit) leading to the steeper than usual base leg and/or final approach. Therefore practising from the same height somewhere else with nothing to hit may be helpful!

Alternatively, you could always practise circuits in open FIR, starting at 3700' descending to 2000' over some landmark. At least this will enable you to get some idea of the power settings and glide distances involved.

[Chilli Monster]

So throttle all the way back, flaps all the way out and then you turn base. Possibly, if you know how to do it safely (try it with an instructor first), S-turns or sideslips. A PA-28, with its almost square fuselage cross section, will have a lot of drag if sideslipped.

Not being funny here but, until you know the environment we're talking about here (Ever been to Sheffield? Some of us are actually aircraft owners based there - bigfoot - mine's the T-tailed Arrow) I would a) read the question properly; and b) not make such suggestions until you have.

Bigfoot - IGNORE the above - you are asking for trouble otherwise, believe me. High drag, coupled with your worry about engine failure (in case you actually had one), will bite you in the ar$e!

[BackPacker]

Chilli, I admit I've never been to Sheffield, but the way I read the original question is that the circuit for 10 is over a built-up area with no way to do a forced landing other than on the runway itself. And I read that bigfoot was concious of that, but apparently stayed so high that he overshot.

Now in general, if you're so high that you're likely to overshoot, despite zero throttle, you're going to have to add drag (flaps, sideslip) or extend your flight path (s-turns). Doesn't matter whether the engine is still running or not. A running engine just gives you a way out in that scenario.

Obviously, if you've got nowhere to go in case the engine quit, you never descend below a height where you can reach the runway. But the way I read it, that was not the case here.

I read about a glider instructor once. Before he sent his students solo, he had them to a mock (by walking around on the ground) 1:20 glidepath (the best a glider can do, apparently) and a 1:5 glidepath (the worst a glider can do with the airbrakes extended). He then made sure that the students always stayed in the middle of that, so that they had options.

Same with powered flying. If you're low, you clean up the aircraft and/or you add power. Simple. But if you're high and the throttle is already all the way back, you need to know how to add extra drag to wash off that excess height. Flaps, sideslip and in a true emergency I would even consider asking the passenger to extend that enormous airbrake called the door.

BTW - what's the forums opinion on *removing* flap if you have two or three stages out (base or final) and the engine quits? Me, I would nail the airspeed at 73 knots (PA28 best glide and well above Vs) and carefully raise the flaps to zero degrees if I feel I'm low. Sure, you might lose an initial few feet because of less lift, but with a cleaner airframe the aircraft will glide better. I can always add them back later, or slip off the excess height. And in any case, better hit the hedge at the far end at walking speed than the row of trees at the near end at flying speed...

[Comanche250]

Even with the engine still running normally in a single I wouldnt put flaps down unless I knew I was going to be able to reach the runway, dont know about anyone else but at least that absolves you from having to worry about wether or not to take them up again! Which incedentally I wouldnt like to do! Just out of interest how old was the glider!?

[Chilli Monster]

what's the forums opinion on *removing* flap if you have two or three stages out (base or final) and the engine quits? Me, I would nail the airspeed at 73 knots (PA28 best glide and well above Vs) and carefully raise the flaps to zero degrees if I feel I'm low.

Why get yourself in that situation in the first place?

Classic Human factors scenarios always prove that, in moments of high stress, we always revert to what we are first taught. Now, as nowhere in engine failure was "putting the flaps away" mentioned the chances are you won't remember to do it, and won't recognise the cause of your adverse descent rate. Fly the circuit the way I said in my initial post and you won't have to go down that road. If you are that cool that you are likely to do what you have suggested in the time available then you truly are a flying god :\

And the last glider I flew had a glide angle of 1:42 (Was an instructor before powered flying) ;)

[BackPacker]

A few weeks ago we had our annual target landing practice at our club again. The aim is to land not more than 25 meter after the (displaced) threshold. You get three tries, one of which has to be a glide-in (ie. no power allowed anymore after passing 500 feet). Oh, and the place where your wheels *finally* touch the ground counts, so bouncing is out of the question.

Once you commit yourself to the glide, you regulate your airspeed/glide path with the only means of adding/removing drag you have: with the flaps. If you're high, lower the flaps, if you're low, raise them again. Works just like a handbreak in a car. (Fortunately the PA-28 has manual flaps, making this very easy.)

Needless to say, there is an instructor, acting as a safety pilot, in the RHS.

[bigfoot01]

....once the flaps go in, they're in and you loose any benefit by taking them out again (particulary in relation to forced landing). Now I am a PPL and can have my own opinions, if I was doing a forced landing and say I misjudged the wind and was reasonably high on my glide, I would drop them out if I felt I had put them in too early. I suspect I would leave them alone if I was down below say 500 ft ! Just a thought really, I have never practiced it.

Not something that has bothered me on this problem so far, however....

Thanks for the contributions to date, I am finding this really useful.

Maybe one for the new aviations quotations:

PPRuNe - therapy to counteract effects of the LHS :D

[Piltdown Man]

The only difference is the distance you should be from the airfield if your circuit is at 1,700' instead of your "normal" 1,000'. The angle between you and airfield should remain the same. I'd suggest that you should also look at the "picture" more when doing a normal circuit and then replicate that at EGSY. But as somebody has said earlier, it takes a lot effort to miss a 1,200M runway and may I suggest that your money would not be wasted on a bit of instruction. You'll find that very quickly they'll identify your problem and give you a permanent, worthwhile fix and boost your confidence and ability.
PM
PS. And gliders I have flown have been able to do close on 60:1 at 60kts, but it was some time ago...

[bigfoot01]

...the work I put in to miss the 1200m runway (?)

[Insane]

Bigfoot01, we fly into a lot of short strips here that surrounded by trees etc and the best approach that we have found is to fly a standard circuit, no matter what the circuit height is, the higher you are the further away you will be from the field, and that will give you a slightly longer final approach, stabilise your speed early on final and control rate of decent with power, apply final flap once you are sure you can get in safely..squeek it in sweetly:ok:

[mark147]

....once the flaps go in, they're in and you loose any benefit by taking them out again (particulary in relation to forced landing)That's not quite how it works. It's often said that if you retract the flaps you'll get sink and hence be worse off but that's only in the case where you reduced speed when you added flap and you need to increase speed again to retract them.

Using flap adds drag and increases rate of descent. If you maintain the speed, you can retract the flaps again without any sink, provided you adjust the attitude correctly as you do it.

In a normal landing, you would normally reduce speed when you use the flaps and hence people say that retracting is a bad idea: either you'll lose height because you need to dive slightly to regain airspeed, or you'll lose height because you don't regain airspeed and hence have a higher angle of attack and more drag.

In a glide approach, I tend to use flap as needed but keep the airspeed at the clean best glide speed until I'm sure I'm going to make it to the field and can safely slow down. That way I still have the option to lose the flap and extend the glide if I need to. With practice though, you'll find you can judge it pretty well anyway.

M.