Salaries

[Vw driver]

Just a question, is it wrong to expect a salary of +-R20000 a month with 5 years experience with turbine ratings and some ATP subjects flying in SA(being at home)? I mean a waitress earns R10000 - R15000 at Villa Mora after tax, She didn't invest a 1/4 of a mil in training. It's a sad day but I've decided to put down my headsets at the end of the month, have to give the company 30 days notice, I'll still try and do the right thing. Oooh and I've had interviews with Airlines and been excepted, just can't live on the Salaries they offer.It's prob time too cut my losses and move on. Anybody have any seggestions?

[Foo-Fighter]

This is quite amazing. Two individuals and two completely opposites.

I see you are 27.

After obtaining my CPL in 1995, i found it extremely difficult to find a flying job. 200hr Comm at a time that the Rand was fading as fast as the old regime, and aeroplanes being sold faster than KFC Streetwise two's...it wasnt working out at all for me.

So, i went into property development where i worked and got quite successful over time. Even getting to the point of considdering buying an aeroplane.

To the point:

When i turned 29, i had to have a bit of a sit-down with myself. I wasnt happy, all i ever wished for was to be flying...so i quite what i was doing...cashed in my investments and got back into flying. I knew full well that i would not be able to even remotely match my previous income and that i would have to go back to the bottom of the ladder (even though i have accumulated more management experience than anyone could have done flying aeroplanes up to that age) and be something like a co-pilot on a Caravan.

I did it, and i wont look back. It was the best investment that i could have ever made. Yes i wont be living the way that i was for a very long time...maybe never...but i love doing what i do. I can get up in the morning and be content. I know i am working towards something like SAX where i can fly great aeroplanes and make enough to live happily. Not extravagantly...but enough.

Maybe if i got my break earlier i would have been where you are too right now.

It really saddens me that what you are saying is absolutely correct though (although i have my doubts about waitresses earning THAT much consistantly), i really wish you all the best with your decision and that you'd be happy with it. Thats all that matters.

[TermightJim]

Well, I suppose you could expect pay like that from an operator like SAX or SAA (anyone from those companies please feel free to correct me). I dont think you will get that from One Time or Nationwide. Do you have all your subjects and if you do, do you still need hours to acquire the license? If you dont, maybe thats the problem.

On the other hand, if you have a family, you will have to decide what is in their best interests. Only you know your financial status. If you dont have a ball and chain just yet and its only you who would like more moolah, I would say reconsider your situation.

As a last remark, dont compare your situation to those around you. Remember that a hooker also pulls in that sort of money!

Hope this helps. Good luck!:ok:

[nugpot]

I was 35 when I got my first airline job. It is worth the wait and sacrifice.

I worked as an electronic engineer (also ending up in management) and all I can say is that when today's flying is done and tomorrow's hasn't started yet, you can have a beer and relax. There are not many other jobs where you can say the same. I can't remember one night while I was working as an engineer, where there wasn't some problem that had to be solved first thing the next day that preyed on my mind.

In the end though, it is your decision whether you want to stay in flying.

You don't mention your time, ratings and other experience. Years in aviation does not count. I flew 40 hours between 1991 (when I got my comm) and 1996.

[Mad Mac]

Same as the rest I guess, depends at what age you started and if you have a family or not.

I started flying choppers in '91 (R385 per hour) only got my com in 2004 (R2200 per hour) I'm 35, married with 2 kids. Can't live off the chopper salaries they offer but love flying. Sacrificed a few years flying getting some hours and went back to working in IT for myself. Fly freelance now and hoping to start instruction soon.

The investment never pays off (especially chopper) but was it worth it to do my licence..... H:mad:ll yeah. If i started at the ripe age of 21 as a com pilot it would be a different story.

My advice to you is to fly for passion but have some thing on the side to pay the bills.
Good luck.:)

MM

[Leftpedal]

It can pay off - eventually - if you persist. Someone once said "luck is when preparation meets with opportunity" and with that in mind, you need luck too.

I also spent about R250,000 getting my comm (chopper). First job after getting that expensive pice of paper was on a chicken farm, earning R150 per day. Did that for about 2 months until I got an aviation job which paid slightly less. Lived on pasta and tuna fish for about a year and wouldn't have been able to afford even that without my girlfriend's income (funnily enough she was a waitress). Got my instructor's ticket and suddenly doubled my income & trebled my flying.

After 3 years of flying I calculated I had finally earned (before tax) my R300,000 back (the extra 50,000 or so was spent getting my instructors). Now I earn about R20,000 a month. Of course that's still slightly less than I was earning 10 years ago but ask me if I give a ****....

[gtseraf]

Guys (and gals)

Time to catch a wake up here. Last time I went to the bank to pay the mortgage with a bag full of "job satisfaction", well you know the reaction.:}

There comes a time where we, as a group, must stop justifying how much fun we have flying and start demanding some proper compensation for our skills, investment and abilities. The longer we accept " My job is so much fun" the longer the management types will pay mediocre salaries. AND I apply this to all levels of the game from new CPL to international wide body captain.

This idea of I'll fly for free to build up hours is the worst thing we've done to ourselves ever.

I'm in the contract world and we see this attitude displayed regularly, hence management refuses to adjust salaries and we're all going backwards.

One day we're all going to have to look after ourselves in our old age (+ the dragon lady) and nostalgia is NOT going to pay the bills.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Amen, brother......:ok:

[Frogman1484]

You are right man about the salaries , satisfaction does not pay for a loaf of bread. The Sad thing is that we are our worst enemies, just look at the SAA threads about pay. As soon as some one is getting paid international rates for doing this job, we have others that want to pull the rest down to regional levels...and do the job for a loaf of bread.

The papers in Oz the other days had an article about pilots shortages, and they pointed out the due to the high cost of training and the low pay, a lot of people were not opting to become pilots. Here is also an article from Oz about Virgin Blue canceling flights because they do not have enough crews. http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,23483,21669950-27977,00.html

[whoop.whoop]

Time to catch a wake up here. Last time I went to the bank to pay the mortgage with a bag full of "job satisfaction", well you know the reaction.
There comes a time where we, as a group, must stop justifying how much fun we have flying and start demanding some proper compensation for our skills, investment and abilities. The longer we accept " My job is so much fun" the longer the management types will pay mediocre salaries. AND I apply this to all levels of the game from new CPL to international wide body captain.
This idea of I'll fly for free to build up hours is the worst thing we've done to ourselves ever.
I'm in the contract world and we see this attitude displayed regularly, hence management refuses to adjust salaries and we're all going backwards.
One day we're all going to have to look after ourselves in our old age (+ the dragon lady) and nostalgia is NOT going to pay the bills.
:D Well said. Best posting I have seen for a while. We as professionals in the industry have to stick together and get the salaries the profession deserves. It requires a lot of time money and sacrifices to get into this business. Still have no heard of a doctor or lawyer who works for free because he likes his job.

[Solenta]

In line with "don't bring us problems, bring us solutions", (and I realise that this is predominantly a rumour network), I'd like to get feedback on what the contract pilots out there, Solenta or not, consider a market related salary structure, for their respective aircraft type. Solenta operate ATR42, B1900, DHC-6 and C208.
The more data we have, the more accurate the salary reviews. Please provide realistic, accurate information, unless you've seen a payslip, don't go on "i heard pilots at abc earn.... " rumours do not solve problems, facts do.
Also, imagine you were deciding the salaries, what would you pay - ps.. try keep the business in the black ! All well and good dishing out huge salaries, when you cant pay the creditors at the end of the month, that type of business won't survive very long !
I believe, that through open communication, and sensible proposals, we are sure to have a starting point to ensure our pilots are paid a fare wage.
I want to, at least, bridge the gap between what you consider fair, and what is sensible, business-wise.
If you want, call me or mail me, the more info I have to work with, the better.
CP Solenta

[Avi8tor]

Vw driver - having been in hiring/firing in airlines for the last 12 yrs, GET YOUR ATP!!! Also remember you can't compare contract LIFE STYLE with what airline pilots do.

At the moment movement is there. The pilot shortage is not with us. Shake a tree and a 1000hr pilot falls out. What is helping, there is a worldwide shortage of EXPERIENCE. Thats pulling in at the bottom.

Most airlines will start on about R15k and up. Upgrades are quick, 12-18 months. The 4th stripe will take you way over your R20k. I think a yr 1 captain will be over R30k. Which is pretty much industy standard. Up my end of the food chain, money is REALLY good.

Had my best mate from school on the jumpseat, he is a senior mananger at KPMG. Had a long chat about pay scales, go look in the employment section of the paper and see what jobs are paying upwards of R420k/pa.

I echo the sentiment of most ppl here, we have the BEST job in the world. Remember when u unstrap the big metal tube from your backside, you can't take the worries home. If you fly regional/domestic you are prob flying 19 days a month.

I can only speak for Airlink, but my job is is largely 6am till 12 or 12 till 7 pm. Thats a 1/2 day job in most ppls eyes. Most ppl that make 1/2 a bar need to get there at 7 and go home at 6. Did I mention the NOT sitting in traffic?
You don't have to buy suits, you get tea/coffee on demand, sure the food isn't much to write home about :O. You get to stay in 4 star hotels with drinking money provided.

The nice thing is, if you keep looking when u get 5000hrs with jet command, PLENTY of $145k/pa jobs out there. Many are TAX FREE.

All people go through a hard patch in their career, stick with it!!!!!

P.S. Can't resist a dig, pilots are NOT our own worst enemies, the SAA threads were about airlines making profits. If you DONT HAVE IT, YOU CANT PAY IT!!!

[Contract Dog]

Ah yes, the age old money debate. I did have a post up a while back about buying experience, kind of ties in with this. You cant tell me we don’t do this for the passion, we all started out with grand ideas and passion in our hearts and had or still have a love for this work or we would not do it. Flying for “passion” is fine, if you go find an aerobatic plane and pay for it by the Hr. Flying for “passion” in a commercial operation where your boss is getting paid a fortune by the client to provide a service simply makes you a target for the bean counters, and why not? You are passionate, you are willing and you don’t care how much they pay you! Perfect for them!!!!! The f up comes in where you have to move out of mommy and daddy’s house or get a girlfriend and no longer want to live in student like digs with 50 guys running round your living room and 1000 empty beer cans on the floor, ie you grow up! Suddenly $1000 a month doesn’t cut it and for the amount of effort and training and renewals and and and and and and that we put into this job, why should it be? Expecting a descent wage, based on what the client pays and sees us as worth, is not unreasonable.

Fortunately, THERE IS A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!! (and I am stealing this idea from a drunken chat with GT in Billy the Bums, thanks mate, great idea)

Brokenkneecaps.com!

What we do is set up a website where we the crew decide what each a/c type is worth to fly in different countries and contracts and we post the salaries on the site. E.g. a Van driver gets $5000 a month
200 driver gets $6000
1900 gets $7000 and so on.
Then, if someone decides to go and fly for “passion” and fly’s a Van for lets say $1000 a month, he gets reported to Brokenkneecaps.com an suffers a penalty visit, this may put 2 or 3 people out of the industry but we will just have to see this collateral damage and move on. It won’t take time and word will spread on sites like this about the newly structured rates for crew and cost to your knees if you work for less. Then, the next time you are sitting in an interview and they offer you a “passionate” pay cheque, because lets face it, companies are passionate about parting with cash, you go and look up on Brokenkneecaps.com what the going rate is, if it is different, you will feel an overwhelming compulsion to turn the job down until they up the pay, because no matter how much you love flying, you don’t want one of the website’s reps to pay you a visit. It wont be long (I give it a week) and no one will be able to find crew and every ZS a/c will be parked for crew’s fear of loosing their knees, then my friends and only then, when the operators realise how much they need us, will we earn what we have worked so hard for, an honest wage! :E


sorry, put this in the wrong thread earlier.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=3272633) http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

[Arcla]

Contract dog... i like your work!!

Not doing the contract thing anymore but am willing to join the association...:E :E

[Frogman1484]

Contract dog...good one, can we franchise:D :ok: that service around the world...brokenkneecaps pty Ltd, it can have a sister company fannyslaps.com for the female crews among us.

[Vw driver]

I think a very fair request would be to atleasts omehow link the salaries to the inflation and also keep in mind that living expenses go up many times a year. Salaries don't need to be $ based, u can start off with a fixed salary and get 1 - 2 small increases a year like in most other industries. Also get performance increases. When I satarted flying I earned R19000 per month per month, now I'm earning 10500, doing the same work same, just more experience. Yes the rand weekend, but we still supply the same survice.

[Vw driver]

The other end is companies can't expect pilots to stay loyal if they not properly looked after. I've never burnt bridges and not planning too, but a HAPPY CREW IS A SAFE CREW.

[whoop.whoop]

This industry at the moment is very focused on bottom line and will do whatever it take to keep it up. Happy Pilots are not part of their plan. That part is up to ourselves. :hmm: :hmm:

[wrinkly wings]

I also posted this in the solenta thread... but i see it belongs here.

I wish to apply for a job at broken knee caps.
CV:
Name: Soprano
Age: not quite past it
Experience: Well, lets just say extensive
References: Sadly most no longer able to communicate if you get my drift.

Of course, if you are a South African Pilot, you could always join the transport and allied workers union. They not only break knee caps they trash cities.

Seriously though, you could also start a website called Transparency.com,
Aviators could band together, and every job offer (or even info from interview if no offer made) could be posted there with name of company, position offered, aircraft type, experience required and most important salary and working conditions and perks offered.
Word would soon get around which companies to avoid and which are worthwhile, the bad guys would quickly have to get with the program or risk losing credibility (and staff) in the industry.

[Foo-Fighter]

Good idea Crinckle-cut. I'd certainly get onto that.

[Mad Mac]

Contract Dog - Good one. Lets rather break the operator offering the 'passion' salary's knees - saves our poor pilots!!

Wrinkly wings - Also a good suggestion but there's always a desperado that will take the 'passion' pay.

So I guess its a vicious circle, wish we could all stand together and demand our worth.

Safe flyin all!

MM

[Avi8tor]

Vw driver - I am a bit lost. You took the job and now are moaning about the salary? Surely you should have asked that question in the intervew?

You started 5 yrs ago on R19k a month, simple math, R/$ was 14/1 so you were on $1300? Well that is now R9K. And that was for the 2 months you were away?

Sadly its a fact that is taught in ecomonics 101, any rate of pay is determined by 2 things:-

- Supply and demand
- What ppl are prepared to pay for the product.

Right now, and I suspect for all time, u shake a tree and a 1000 hr pilot falls out. If you are looking for 3000hr guys with ATP's, there a bit thin on the ground. Salaries will reflect that.

Dont get me wrong, I am all for MASSIVE salaries for pilots. But its all simple math. Look for salaries to go up for the 3000hr guys.

[south coast]

Come on VW...tell us your experience.

[cforty7]

VW. Get your ATP and do contract if you cant find anything else. You can't complain if you havent put everything into it. Unless you get a lucky break you have to make it work.

If you put everything into it, the luck will come. There is a HUGE demand for good experience and its growing. Fast.

Remember, there's pilots and there's aviators. The industry remembers the guys who made it happen through their passion for flying. They are the people that gets offered ratings, nicer charters, nicer contracts and if you still carry on, on the same way, the big bucks jobs gets offered to you.

We are all working for the same company, just getting paid by different people, but word spreads like fire. Just put your bit in. The rest will follow.

[Vw driver]

That was as a gofer at NAC contracts, So I earned more as a gofer than now as a Pilot!!! Since then I gotten some extra turbine/twin turbine ratings, and +- 1500 hours on 1900. Since I started in the industry I've bought a house, cars gotten engeged and made some investments. Now it's gotten to the stage to downgrade. To what?!! I do not live extravigantly, don't even go out much cause can't afford it!!!!
And they still want u to pay for u'r own ratings with training bonds?!
Job satisfaction doesn't pay the bills, and I've started telling that to everybody I know that wants to start flying.

Money diff from contracts to work ing in SA, living at home is not enough to leave u'r families friends, certainly not worth what relationships go through for me.

When I had my interviews I thought I took the best offer, the promises sounded better, well I was 75% right. Salaries need better structuring

When I get asked what I do, I say I'm a bus driver cause we get paid the same, and they think I'm joking!!!

[Vw driver]

Av8tor, u'r maths are correct, went for an interview with an airline and got asked after the interview if I would be happy with a salary drop. Thats why I'm not in an airline, really can't afford it. The job I chose had the more promising offers, since then my salary has till deen decreasing. to what I earn now. I've don my share of contract work, not interested. Just a though I my house payment is R8000 (standard 3 bdroom townhouse with garage including levies) car R2000, then u haven't even gotten to life insurance, house and car insurance, petrol, cellphone, car and house maintenance, food, social life and loans for ratings!

[Vw driver]

I would feel right to compare my self to hookers and strippers, cause they do make a fair amoount more than us.

[south coast]

Get a grip of yourself.

If you are not earning enough to support the lifestyle you want you have to do one of two things.

Either, change your lifestyle, or increase your earning ability.

You still have not told use your experience, because perhaps you are expecting too much for your level.

The captains for most contract companies are paid more or less a fair salary, co pilots on the other hand are not.

But, if you are a co-pilot, that is just a neccessary evil we have all had to endure in order to gain the required experience to move seats and normally almost double one's salary.

If you are a captain and are not happy with the salaries within the contract world and local airlines you may have to look in going abroad.

If you are a copilot and are not happy with the salaries, you will have to work at being a captain and that means changing your attitude somewhat.

[Contract Dog]

:D well said mate

[Vw driver]

My complaint is about the salaies that keep on decreasing!!!! That's why most of us ended up complaing, read the post properly! Does it make sense that earned more as a Gofer 5 years ago than I do now a co-jo 1500 on 1900 with 2 ATP subjets to?
If I do get command which I was told I'd get with in 2-3 months after starting with the firm I'd most likely not earn R5000 more as a jonior CPT.

[Vw driver]

Sorry to subjects left, Radio and Nav plotting.

[south coast]

VDUB...

having 2 atpl subjects passed or having 2 subjects to do means one in the same thing, you dont have an atpl.

i remember when a dollar was worth 11 rand when i was a new co pilot and when it was worth 6 when i was a captain, relatively speaking i earned more when i was a co pilot.

thats life, sh*t happens, life is not always logical nor fair.

get over it, you are wasting energy moaning about something you have no control over.

either accept the salary structure of your company and keep quiet, or leave for somewhere where you think you services will be better recognised.

[Vw driver]

2 subjects to go means u are carrying. And yes, like said in my first post I've deciced to do something else. maybe fall back on to bean counting atleast the salaries are relistic with todays living cost, I don't know but all I ment it does'nt make sense, whith a laptop u've got backspace, in a plane well ya!

[south coast]

You said,

'I don't know but all I ment it does'nt make sense, whith a laptop u've got backspace, in a plane well ya!'

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean, you think because you follow your AFM, QRH and SOP's you should be rewarded over and above what you have agreed to by signing a contract.

Most on here have put up with the poor salaries paid as a co-pilot, but most of us moved on to become captains and then moved on to other companies to probably become co-pilots again.

Have you considered that, that some contract captains have had to take pay cuts and have had the honour of flying as a co-pilot again in a new company/airline/whatever.

Why, because thats how the system works.

[Solenta]

Thanks for some positive feedback, we realise its an emotive issue.
While we may not meet the expectations of some of the pilots out there, we hope to come up with a set of numbers that are acceptable.
Solenta is sitting with over 130 pilots now and the numbers are growing weekly, with expansion, and replacements for those pilots that have moved across to the airlines.
Obviously the training task is huge, as are the costs of launching new contracts. There are huge financial outlays for more aircraft, spares packages, ops controllers, engineers, pilots etc... Some pilots will be thinking "whats the company's expansion plans got to do with my salary, they just want to make more money for the shareholders ?"
Remember, this IS a business, first and foremost, and its those same shareholders that made your job available in the first instance. The most important thing to realise is, without growth, there are no extra jobs created, and movement slows, or stops completely. It is a domino effect, if the airlines don't grow, there is no movement from us to them, so there's no movement from charter / instructors to contract companies etc... and upgrades, new types and most importantly, salaries , stagnate.
Solenta IS expanding, even in the face of a worlwide crew shortage, and we are getting quality crew, who see the long term strategy, and see that we have built a solid foundation. This is fundamental to long term survival.
Cash flow is always tight during expansion, but the core of the business is solid and the profits WILL come, there is no doubt. Then we can all share in the fruits of our hard work and sacrifices. But to pay unrealistic salaries, the effect would be less available for expansion, aircraft, engineers,spares etc, and too many pilots have seen companies go down THAT road, we must not and will not allow that to happen at Solenta.
Solenta want to ensure that our pilots are paid a fair market rate, and are working towards that, amongst other initiatives already put in place.

[Mad Mac]

If u work in a Wimpy as a waitron and then a manager your earnings are limited to Wimpy's salary structure. So you move to a Spur as a waitron (again) but there the pay was a little less than the manager at Wimpy. As you move up you earn more as the manager of Spur. Then Baoabab offers you a post as a waitron (again) and your earnings are lower than a manager at Spur BUT when you become a manager at Baoabab you will earn their top salary which funnily enough, is way more than the Spur or Wimpy manager earns.

Moral to my story is: If you stay in a smallish company you will eventually only earn what their maximum scale is. If you move and take an INITIAL PAY CUT and work your way up (as ur experience grows) in a company that has scope, you will earn that companies top scale (in time)

All been said and done if you want to count beans go for it. I'd rather earn nothing than do that job. PASSION! Like I said in my 1st post here, get a sideline. Buy a coffee shop or video shop or shares in a garage. You said you've got investments - make them work!!

Good luck.

[south coast]

Plane4sale, you contradict yourself.

You say you want a salary structure then your very last sentence says, 'And obviously, guys with a few thousand hours might be able to negotiate a better package.'

Why bother having an open scheme when there are secret deals being done.

Secondly, you have to understand the contract business, and I will be honest I also didnt really grasp it until I was several years into it, but they are not truely interested in loyalty or long term employees, hence the name, 'contract pilots'.

They want you for a period of time, while you are fairly inexperienced and therefore willing to take any job offered. In return, they dont have to pay huge amounts because you dont normally have too many options.

Dont get me wrong, the money is not too bad for that stage of your flying career, but as you become more experienced and more employable, you feel you are worth more, but to them, you will still only be doing the job you were doing for them 2/3/4 years earlier, so why should they pay you more.

So, they are actually happy for you to leave and so the cycle starts again.

Dont be naive and fooled into thinking contract flying is a career, or that their is any value in loyalty, because the operators have to pay the directors and owners of the planes and thats all they are interested in doing, they are a business to make money after all.

I think as soon as you see them as a stepping stone, because they only ever see you as temporary, the easier it becomes to accept the way things are and see contract flying for what it really is.

Nothing synical about it, just how it is.

[Frogman1484]

I personally feel that training bonds should be banned. The only reason that training bonds exist, is so that the operator can force you to stay on the job while he pays you bellow par salaries, or offer crap working conditions.

Which other industry in the world operate on training bonds?

[Solenta]

Contract flying is a unique business.

Consider this from another perspective. Most of the pilots working for SA contract companies are South African who live in SA.

Lets take Pilot "X" who earns a salary of U$ 4500 per month ON, and U$ 2250 on month OFF. ( hypothetical figures )

He works 2 ON, 1 OFF rotations, thereby earning an annual salary of (8x4500)= U$36,000 plus (4x2250)= U$9,000 so earning an annual salary of U$45,000. ( ZAR 315,000).
Due to SA tax laws, this is an almost entirely tax-free salary.

The annual productivity of Pilot "X" is 8 months, as he only works 8 months a year. So this is ZAR 315,000 / 8 to get a nett productive salary of ZAR 39375 after tax for each month actually worked ( and he still has 4 months of the year free)
In Financial terms, Pilot "X" is only worth his salary to the business when he is productive.

A scheduled airline pilot / office employee earning the same ZAR 315,000 per annum works in SA 11 months of the year, with less than 1 month paid leave ( a 'normal' job). This is taxed at +/- 35% and equates to ZAR 315,000 / 12 = ZAR 26250 before tax, leaving a nett salary of ZAR 18375 for each month worked.

So, if structured correctly, the same salary yields contract-pilot "X" more than double his colleague's monthly salary per productive month, and he gets 3 months a year more completely free of duty.
Why lose 3 months holiday, work 6 days a week, battle traffic, just to pay the taxman half your salary ! ( that makes you a civil servant ! )

Talking of productivity, and its been mentioned in this forum already...
Some airline pilots in SA are earning far less GROSS salaries than some contract pilots, and then still have to pay tax. They work 6 days a week, up to max monthly and yearly FDP.
They work 11 months a year. They drive to and from ORT every day, fighting traffic, working early mornings and late nights.
As they say, be careful what you wish for, it may just come true !

Most contract pilots work day VFR only, and the plane goes to bed at sunset and wakes at sunrise. Then he goes home for a month and doesn't give the company a second thought until his next rostered duty. If he get called up early, he is paid an extra allowance ON TOP of his salary, likewise if he extends a tour.
But for this, a contract pilot makes a choice - is he willing to spend 8 months away from home for this 4 months off and double the salary ? This is a choice only he can make.

Contracting is NOT a career, it is a great way to build hours quickly, to get that airline job you dream of, earn a tax-free salary, and have four months a year on holiday.
For those that make it a career, and why wouldn't you, they continue to earn a tax free salary higher than their airline counterparts, and continue to have 4 months a year on holiday, its a choice they made.

The above is written in the spirit of promoting alternative thinking, maybe as an outsider's view, looking in, at the salary discussion, and provoke insightful conversation.

[oompilot]

Solenta, your argument is terribly flawed. The way you have calculated the figures, it seems a contract pilot only lives for 8 months of the year. Does he not pay bills for the months he’s off? Divide his salary by 12 not 8. His salary should be calculated over a full year as this is the time period he works for the company and also incurs expenses. Many companies don’t allow there pilots to fly in their off time, and his time off is due to him as recuperation time, as deemed by the tax man, and he may not work at home during these times at all, if he does he may not recoup the tax money.
If you want to calculate his pay as tax free don’t negate the 4 months he has to be off in order to get it!
I would have to write a book in response to your thoughts on comparing salaries. It’s awful. With misconceived ideas like yours no wonder there is such a bungle in the payment of pilots.

[Vw driver]

Solenta, I agree with P4s too. Proper salary stucktures are very important in any growing company. Look after u'r staff and they will stay loyal and go the extra mile for u. Stop making excuses and really look at the problems, where not being unreasonable, Salaries will cause unhappy crews and force the guys to leave or even stop people from getting their comm's, at the end of the day u'll be paying more for the pilots u can get than if u just structured the salaries better. Also I've never heard or seen pilots sharing in the fruits like Solenta mentioned but I hope I'm wrong.

[south coast]

Plane4sale

My point was merely that while contract operators have been allowed to treat contract pilots like temporary employees they will continue to do so.

If you were the manager and had a plan which viewed the pilots as temporary, and cyclic, would you increase their salary?

Your arguement about being there for than 3 years and thinking you should command more money, I would agree, but I think they are really hoping you would move on by that time so that they dont have to pay you that extra money you probably now deserve.

[Gooneybird]

On the question of training bonds it's fairly common in aviation and anyway, you can hardly expect a company to fund your rating and have you leave a week later.

Solenta you say contracts are not a career but just an hour builder. If you mean that it's a job people don't do forever true but, it's not the delta in a 206 either. Deep sea diving is a short career too but the guys expect to make decent money. When guys are working in places such as Iraq then I really do feel pay should justify risk. I don't know what Solenta pays so I'm not having a dig at you personally.

In general, and it's just my opinion: It's all market driven anyway. If a company can pay $5 for a service then why would they pay $10? I hear there's a shortage of B1900 drivers so, I would assume the respective companies will have to offer more to compete for the limited pool of drivers, right? On the other hand 500 hour co-jo's are still two a penny and therefore paid accordingly. Life's a bitch and then you die.

[south coast]

Plane4...

Of course I agree you should all be paid fairly, there should be an open and clear pay structure, and people treated properly.

But, the people who own the operators, ie. the directors and owners of the planes (who are payed over the going rate for the plane) and funnily enough, the directors and plane owners are normally one and the same poeple, dont care about the pilots.

Why, because they know there is no solidarity between the crews, hence as you said earlier, people negotiate their own deals.

You can call for all the constructive debate you like about the matter, the bottom line is, the people making the money in these companies are not prepared to take a reduction in profit just to make sure you stay for 5 years.

Every year there are people ready to fill the spaces. Why do they need to pay for 3000 hours experience $7000, when the contract requirements states 1500/2000 hours(whatever it is) and they can pay that person $5000?

[Solenta]

GatengPilot, Oompilot, VW

When I divide a contract pilot's salary by 8, rather than 12, I was referring to "productivity", not salary - this is an accounting term you may not be familiar with. In other words, the amount of money earned over a period of a year, for the amount of months "worked" - the time that you are productive in earning revenue for a company. Remember , we have to pay pilots for a 12 month job, so when you're home, someone else is getting paid to be productive in your place.

btw - the taxman has no say in how much time you have off, and its got nothing to do with being at home for 4 months. You need to be away for more than 183 days, 60 of which are consecutive, but I'm no tax specialist, so don't quote me.

quote.."OK then Solenta, do you agree that being away 8 months of the year (usually in hostile environments and away from loved ones) needs to be properly compensated for"....
this is a job you chose, no-one is forcing you to do it, that by no way implies we don't care, or you're not important, but if you don't want to fly contracts, get a flying job where you don't have to go away, then you won't have this problem.

I was merely trying to show that you cannot compare apples with oranges, which us pilots are very good ( but actually very bad ) at !

I am in no way making excuses, rather trying to get, and give, a balanced view on the topic. We are reviewing salaries, and we've gained some valuable insight from this forum, its another way of getting info, we of course conduct a professional survey, and don't base a salary review on a rumour network ! But I am trying to get the pulse and feelings of the guys out there, I'll take the knocks, no problem, and continue to try to make things better for our pilots.

As I said, we have over 130 pilots and we still get many CV's a day from quality, experienced pilots, so we must be doing some things right, but we're aways open to get ( and give ) constructive criticism.

Keep it coming...

CP Solenta

[hyenacackle]

CP Solenta

Thanks for the pm. Question is. Do those quality, experienced pilots
accept your offer and stay with your company? If so then your
problem is solved.

This will sadly mean that we are just a bunch of whining overpaid
pilots thats getting more than we deserve from current employers.
:ouch: I really hope not :{

[B200Drvr]

CP Solenta,
Your maths omits the productivity of office personnel who only work Monday to Friday, so 52 X 2 = 104 days out of 365 that they are not productive and still they get 24 odd days per year annual leave + public holidays. On contract we worked 7 days per week depending on our geographical location.
I do not agree with training bonds, but think a working bond should be looked at. The company I work for pays for your type rating, done at FSI, and all costs involved as well as your salary during training. You then have a contracted amount that you have to work off, over a two year period. Nothing is deducted from your salary and you earn the same a previously type rated pilots. If you choose to leave before the remainder of your two years, you are aware of the buy-out costs as you have the break down month by month in your contract. It is done fairly and everybody goes into it with open eyes. I was already typed when I joined the company so do not have this bond, but it offers pilots who have financial commitments and cannot afford to pay for a rating or live on a reduced salary, the option to get a secure job.
Should the company not be able to provide further employment for the pilot, he walks away with a rating, a little security. Should the pilot leave or cause himself to be dismissed, he owes the remainder of the costs. Companies should not be trying to make a profit from their own crews type ratings, nor should they be trying to bond crews for 5 years. They should be using this as a way to get productive pilots into there system who they know will be there for at least two years. At the end of the contract the pilot might decide to sign for a bigger type or might decide it is time to move on, everybody wins.

[Q4NVS]

All to often the fact the we work 7 days a week whilst on tour is overlooked by the companies.

Don't you have FDP? :ooh:

[hyenacackle]

We didn't think this one through did we. Just got the visit from
the rep. :ouch: Apparently they struck a new deal with the companies
and i was informed to gladly accept the "passionate" offer from them
or you know what :}

Looks like they are getting a one month payment of the difference
between what i demanded and what they are offering. So much
for that then :E

[Vw driver]

Solenta, I studied B.com acounts also. Salaries need to worked on 12 months

[nugpot]

On contract we worked 7 days per week

Surely you operate legally guys? So you should have at least 6 days off per month (You know - one after seven, 2 in 14, etc.). That only gives you 2 days per month less than an office worker. That is more than balanced by your months off.

I don't want to be pedantic, but with less than 3000hrs, most of you have only been flying for a few years. If you want to compare yourself with other professionals (Lawyers, doctors, engineers who only reach the R300k bracket after a few years work experience), you have to be realistic. They have spent at least 4 years at 'varsity and then started on crappy salaries until they became valuable to their companies. Until their earning potential goes up, they do what inexperienced professionals in all walks of life do - keep their expenses within their disposable capability. It is not really realistic to fight for a salary that meets your idea of lifestyle.

Pilot salaries are mostly market driven (let's leave the national carrier out of the equation - they reckon that they compete in an entirely different market and perhaps they are justified). I think that the guys prepared to work for lowish salaries perhaps see the bigger picture - and you want their legs broken?
I also see in this thread that Solenta employs about 130 pilots. Maybe it is time to get an ALPA branch going, so that you can at least speak with one voice.

Finally for plane4sale: I give you credit for getting some sort of scheme going, but your numbers are optimistic. A 1900 co-jo with 1000 hrs is NOT an experienced pilot and should not be earning R241 500 after tax. This is about R400k before tax, and this for someone who has probably been flying for less than 2 years - and most of it in the right seat?

I am all for pilots being paid as professionals for a professional service, but having been an electronic engineer in another life, I have a slightly different viewpoint about the effort/knowledge vs reward equation.

[hyenacackle]

And if you mention that f............... B.com once more :* :eek:

[Foo-Fighter]

However hard it is for me to do being in the same boat... i'd have to agree with Nugs on this one.

If i wanted the coupe and the seafront stand... i should have stayed in property.

I do however think that one should have been on contract, seen what it does to your relationships, optimism and outlook on life before you would really understand. I too have felt that the money (especially when a co) i got, does not compensate me for being a professional pilot, but is merely covering the " just being here" feeling.

[Foo-Fighter]

Having NOT have done B-com accounts i am no expert... but is INCOME not calculated using 12 months, and not necisarily salary?

I think you would find that this is how SARS look at it.

[Solenta]

salary, agree, divided by 12 months, but I was referring to productivity ( looking at it from the company's side of things ) what does a pilot cost the company over 12 months, for his 8-months-worth of revenue earning work, hope we can put this to bed now, as its not really the issue, I was just trying to get pilots to look at it from the other side of the table for a change, but our main aim is to ensure that pilots are remunerated fairly.

As for ALPA, I actually sent out the application forms to all Solenta pilots about a month ago encouraging them to join, not so they can go on strike, as thats not really the point of a union, ( unless you're a coal miner in 1970's UK ) rather to have a unified body and the protection afforded by an association, with regards loss of license, legal protection in case of an accident ( a Captain is legally liable in an accident, and can end up in jail, there are a few cases presently ). ALPA membership is a good thing, its no "brokenkneecaps.com" ( which is an "interesting" concept, not one I'd subscribe to myself, but it takes all types to make the world go around )

But thanks to all for the insight, this will be my last post on this subject, now we go forward, and review the salaries.

CP Solenta

[The Barron]

Hi Everybody

Having read this posting with some interest.I am a contract Pilot(30 on 30 off)There are few countries in the world that one can live in and enjoy what SARS has to offer us guys.Believe me I have lived and worked in a number of countries.
I startered like many of us from the bottom,scatching to make a living.Making every flying hr that you get count.My parents had no money so it was if you want it,you go out there and work for it.
To make contract flying work for you,one must be prepared for a roller coaster life style.When at work one is in control but when home family commitments are what counts and there is never enough time to fix all the problems before going back to work.
I left a big airline to come and do this as I wanted to live in SA.I fly a BBJ(fantastic plane).Money this is what drives many of us, the more money one earns the bigger the probs.Thus one must find that equal balance.
My Salary is US$14 000 a month.You do the math at 7 to 1 its a lot of money and I have never lost touch with when i first started how I struggled.If I can find this job many other people can and these positions do exist and from time to time people ask me if I know of someone they can hire and all these guys pay this kind of money.
So hang in there and keep applying

[AnnieTheFanny]

Let Aunty Mildred give her views please Gents!

I like the fact that Mr 4Sale has stood up and voiced the opinion of so many out there. Wow! Is this the start of a revolution? Step aside sceptics, and Mr Solenta - to avoid being strapped to a bed and getting a good whippin' I hope that you are going to take to heart the discussion that has been put forward.
All the operators need to start taking a good look at how they treat and pay their staff.

[oerlikon]

The average house these days in SA costs just under R1 000 000. If you spend more than 1 third of your income on bond repayments you could end up defaulting. Therefore to buy a R1 000 000 house on a 100% bond at 10% interest you need to be earning at least R30 000 per month. That should then be a an average salary for an average pilot in an average job.

How many of us can claim to be average? Most of us somewhere way below that!:{

[oerlikon]

What is it about pilots that causes such dissention in the ranks? Aside from the (well advised) airline pilots who are in unions, the rest of the aviation industry just seems to want to screw each other over. In the commercial field you can be highly qualified, but some punk with no experience will come and offer to fly for free (and of course get the job). Freelance should not mean a guy called Lance who will fly for free, and yet there are so many Lance's around its a joke. I am not a freelance pilot, but the knock-on effect to charter, contract and even airline employment is huge.

Anyone who has ever put themselves (daddy's money doesn't count) through flight school should appreciate what they've achieved. Why is it we cannot stand up and be counted, like surgeons (who only ever have 1 patient on the table at a time, compared to our pax lists) and earn a decent wage.

My salary now is not bad compared to some regional airliners, but it is still below what it is worth to take people into a hostile environment and bring tham safely back to earth again.

When are we going to say to operators, `You trust me to look after your multi-million dollar investment, pay me an equivalentl wage.'

[hyenacackle]

You ask this question but then leave remarks like the reply on
the cpl 1900 thread. Maybe when pilots like you stop screwing
other upcoming pilots over, thats when it might stop. Until then
i sincerely hope that your salary will reflect your attitude. :E

[oerlikon]

Did not mean to upset you Hyena. I have always placed the welfare of my lessor placed collegues to the for. In other words (to make it simple for you) I have never sat left seat when I could advance a less experienced co-pilot. I have never accepted a charter as Lance when there was another pilot needing work, I have always done my best to help deserving pilots to find a job. I just think the issue of 1900's is a bit ridiculous, the captains aren't being asked to fly 747's or the tupperware equivalent. But as far as salaries go, when last did you go to your doctor and ask for a checkup? Last time I went to mine I was the only one in the room for a few minutes, alone, and had to pay a couple of hundred bucks.

If chaps want to go and fly 1900's with a cpl, good to them.

I hope that nobody else moderately thick took offense.

[oerlikon]

Oh, sorry, and by the way Hyena, I can't afford to fly for an airline right now. My salary is too good. :p

[hyenacackle]

I'm sure everybody less moderately thick than you accepts your apology;)

[oerlikon]

Thanks for the insult, Hyena, I still do not see where the issue lies. 1 Is the matter of flying the 1900 without an ATP, and I have clearly stated, do it or do it not at your own peril, but remember where your bread and butter lies. The other is the flying for love and not money. So where is the gripe?

[oerlikon]

Sorry Vw.

You started this thread, and I guess it may have been a bit hijacked by plunkwallas like me having my say, and digressing from the original question.

Here is my answer, and there may be a few chuckles afterwards or not: `No, R20 000,00' is not a bad salary to start negotiating for, bearing in mind that that you are still falling short of what should be a national average. Take time to think about the other plunkwallas who are trying to screw you out of a job by undercutting you.

Just remember, they will either end up dead or captains in airlines.

Have fun negotiating, and at the end of the day, thank God for unions.

[nugpot]

Why is it we cannot stand up and be counted, like surgeons (who only ever have 1 patient on the table at a time, compared to our pax lists) and earn a decent wage.

Maybe, because surgeons spend 7 years studying, then specialise and work for almost nothing until they have to start their own practice (setup costs upwards of R300k). They only start earning decent money 10 years after starting on the road to professional qualification. I bet that 10 years after starting your CPL, you will be earning R30k per month.

Face it guys, becoming a pilot is not in the same league as doctors or engineers. It is not even as expensive. My B.Eng cost me R150k 11 years ago. I then worked for R4500 per month (about R15k in now money).

By all means, negotiate for a fair wage, but keep in mind that if an airline capt of a 50 seater earns R40k per month to move (70 legs x ave 40 pax) 2800 pax per month, then your 1900 captain should earn (legs x ave load)/2800 x R40k. that might not be a living wage, but it is an economic reality. Obviously these values can be adjusted with ticket/contract income.

[CJ750]

Don't even bother trying to get ALPA to help you if you are not in an AIRLINE> .They are not interested in general aviation.

[Contract Dog]

well said suitcase, but what about the drive to the airport? does that still count as duty time? cos in that case we earn WAY less than we should, that drv to the a/p scares the c:mad: ap out of me! :eek:
Dog

[nugpot]

On the few occasions the environment is hostile we do earn our money.

Not true. It is always hostile - it is just sometimes low on ammo. ;)

Don't even bother trying to get ALPA to help you if you are not in an AIRLINE> .They are not interested in general aviation.

This is also not true. If you are an ALPA member, you have access to all the expertise available at ALPA. I know of 2 GA companies (OK, Corporate) that concluded wage negotiations last year with info on industry salaries provided by ALPA.

Have you ever tried using ALPA, CJ750? PM me if you need help.

[oerlikon]

dammit nugpot, i hate a good point being made. so saying i'll slink away with my tail between my legs.

suitcase, by hostile environment i was refering to the outside airtemp and O2 pressure and breeze in the cruise over a few tens of thousand feet. wouldn't like to step outside for a minute (like the chap who opened the door on the metavia Let410 because he wanted a bit of fresh air, lucky they're not pressurised), but you're right, sitting in the pressure hull with the heat on you don't really feel much and its not really that hard work.

[Vw driver]

The thread wasn't highjacked, My first post I mearly gave the facts and asked for opinions and ideas.

[oerlikon]

Hi Vw

Being serious for a moment, I do know of people who pay over R20 000 a month to fly light turbines in SA, but they are few and far between. The trend in the country is for annual increases to be below a realistic rate. For instance, if the current official rate of inflation is 6%, in reality the cost of living is going up at a much more alarming rate and getting a 6% increase will eventually put you behind the drag curve. A mate of mine who lives down in Durban says that the freelance charter rate has only gone up this year after staying at the same rate (R1200 or R1.20 per k) for over 5 years! When the rate was put up, they didn't account for five years of inflation. Operators have a stranglehold on the industry and division among pilots always plays to their advantage. Just keep at it and oneday you will find the right job at the right salary. Its not easy, though, if you have a wife and kids. :ugh:

[Vw driver]

Thats actually what I meant with the post, how come people try deffend them self before looking at the real problem at hand and try and keep their employees happy

[oerlikon]

The one thing I have learn't over the years is that companies don't care. Essentially the upper management IS the company and the employees are just the tools. If a cheaper tool comes along the company will buy into it. See, the guys on top want to buy Porsche Cayennes, but they can't do it if the guys on the bottom want to by new Toyotas. Its the sad truth on the matter. The only thing you can do is look after number one. Prostitute your loyalties to the highest bidder. The company won't hesitate to get rid of you if they can save a buck, so don't hesitate to leave them if you can make a buck elsewhere.

This attitude sucks, I know, but as the T-shirt says: I work for money - if you want loyalty get a dog.:(

[Avi8tor]

Its the mighty law of supply and demand. Why do they pay a guy with 2000 hrs and no ATP less than R20k?

Cause they can.

As i said in an earlier post, stick with it, things are changing quickly.

P.S. GET THAT ATP. no left seat and big dosh without it!!!!

[oerlikon]

Avi8tor is right, the ATP is the key to the airlines and the eventual left seat, but you may have to take a drop in salary when you start out as a F/O. If you're in a position to do that, go for it.

[THESTROMS]

hi all. I have been reading Pprune for years and decided to join - you might want to say what am I posting on here for but here goes ......

I have wanted to fly ever since I can remember taking my first trial lesson some 13 years ago, however never had the money for training nor University - so I decided to head to the UK where I worked as a barman, waiter, temp bank clerk and now I have been trading equities on the LSE for close to 8 years.

My day consists of waking-up at 04:45 to start my day 'chained to the desk' by 6am and do not walk out of here till gone 17:30 -18:00. The stress levels are horrendous some days and have had shingles and stress related conditions at the age of 32!! I have a flat in CPT, JHB, a house in London and can even afford to send back money for my mom who has absolutely no savings or pension - the earning in this job is v/good and end of year bonuses are embaressing but everyday, sitting at my desk watching the 06:35 SAA coming in from JHB/CPT or any airline on approach to Heathrow, I have this empty feeling inside and a burning desire to try the trade of becoming ANY sort of fixed wing pilot.

What I am trying to say is I have been away from SA for close on 10 years and am coming back to get my comm etc etc. I have been on both sides of the poverty line, believe me money helps but doesn't make getting up every morning doing something your heart is not committed to any easier -NO MATTER WHAT THE SALARY IS .....

Can I ask the experienced lot - once I have finished my training in SA are the chances of being hired as a pilot far between / very few and far between / or possible? :sad: any suggestions appreciated. Regards

[Happydays]

I dont believe a waiter earns R15000 after tax in SA. I have a friend that just finished studying for accountant earning R13 000. South African Salaries are bad. Reseptionist you will earn R4000/month. I know Solenta ATR captains earn R48 000/ month tax free. Thats not bad.

[congoman]

THESTROMS.
The job market for pilots worldwide is the best I've seen in 31 years of aviation. And it's bound to get better. There are airlines in the Far East and Middle East that are ordering aircraft from Boeing and Airbus - and have no idea where they are going to get the crew from! The expat pilot market is booming! Bottom line is - highest payer will get the crew. The situation has been particularly good for south African pilots. Lots of contract work in Africa giving good experience on multi-engine, multi-crew, turbine aircraft. A good start for getting into the smaller airlines and working your way up.
I can give you lots of detail on these aspects. PM me and I'll put you in touch with the right people. Life's too short to be doing something you aren't passionate about.

[nugpot]

Can I ask the experienced lot - once I have finished my training in SA are the chances of being hired as a pilot far between / very few and far between / or possible? any suggestions appreciated. Regards

I agree completely with congoman. After flying for 7 years, I left the aviation scene to be an engineer. 8 Years later I realised my mistake and took up flying full time again. It took 3 years of the normal cr@p; cargo at night, charter, corporate and especially being away from home (I was married by this stage). Pay was not good, but I was heading in the right direction. I finally got into an airline at 35 nad now at 41, I am earning well enough as captain to make all the sacrifices worthwhile.

There is a lot of opportunities out there. 20 year old co-pilots expecting huge salaries are just not realistic. Do your licences, do your time and get into the big time. SAX should be taking another 20 FO's soon and everybody (except SAA) is employing. Times are good for now.

[Vw driver]

Mmm, Happydays. If u don't believe me, then sommer phone Deloits, PWC or KPMG (those are the main guys) and ask them what u can expect from start to increase. Yes u start with just under 10k after tax but with 2 increases a year and performance increases and also moving up in the company, u should be passing 15k after tax with in 2 years. once u become a manager you'll be in the same league as the mentioned ATR Captains, but still getting 2 increases a year. If u graft hard it wouldn't take u 5 years.

Not asking u to believe me, it's a fact. I don't think I was 100% wrong with posting the thread, cause the salaries have been adjusted since.

[Rocketmail]

Just curious, this is my first posting -What kind of salary/hours/schedule can an FO at SAA expect?:confused:

[s2h]

Can all those working for South African Companies, be it contract/airline/freelance whatever, add to this link, it will make some interesting reading I'm sure.:ok:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271434