Jets [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

IO540

4th May 2007, 06:30

The answer depends to a degree whether you are JAA or FAA.

I believe a jet requires a type rating under either regime, though under FAA a TR is mandatory only if above 12500lb.

A TR is not a big deal; it's just a load of training on type which you obviously need anyway. I am informed (not having bought a jet lately ;) ) that while one can fly a jet on a PPL (sort of workable in the USA where you can go VFR below 18,000ft) it's hard to find anybody who will teach you the TR if you don't have an IR and something like 500-800hrs TT, but you have that already. Last time I asked (CJ1) it was PPL/IR and 800hrs but that was N-reg.

Insurance requirement can be a big issue; in fact the great majority of light jets are not flown by the owner.

The U.S. "Flying" magazine is a good source of info on upmarket flying like this, and IFR matters generally.

Wessex Boy

4th May 2007, 08:47

Pay £2,0000 to 'Where Eagles Share' and a lump per month, and a 1/20th share of 2 Jet Provosts is yours, Just need 100 hrs PIC

There is obviously conversion required, and there are further restrictions on taking a passenger.

Unfortunately there is not much you can do with a JP under the current AD:(

IO540

4th May 2007, 10:45

Not much you can do with a JP anyway, apart from a little jolly :)

slim_slag

4th May 2007, 11:07

Just for the avoidance of doubt, as there is confusing and conflicting stuff being said, FAA land....

Sec. 61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and
authorization requirements.

(a) Type ratings required. A person who acts as a pilot in command
of any of the following aircraft must hold a type rating for that
aircraft:
(2) Turbojet-powered airplanes.
(2) does not mention weight

Chilli Monster

4th May 2007, 13:51

though under FAA a TR is mandatory only if above 12500lb.

As slim says - there is no weight mentioned. That's because ALL jets need a TR, the 12,500lb minimum limit only being applicable to pistons and turboprops.

Insurance requirement can be a big issue; in fact the great majority of light jets are not flown by the owner.

The insurance company will probably insist on training from a recognised provider such as Flight Safety or Simcom before they'll even touch you.

IO540

4th May 2007, 14:24

Yes, all jets need a TR under JAA.

englishal

4th May 2007, 17:47

recognised provider such as Flight Safety or Simcom before they'll even touch you
And Flightsafety probably won't touch you untill you have at least 1000 hours or ATP.:bored: (not forgetting IR) They may touch you if you have bags of cash of course, but they will still expect you to fly to ATP standards.

However, you can of course be Second in Command. It gets a bit more complex for scheduled ops, where you need an FAA SIC type rating to be SIC but this is fairly straight forward and not so expensive.

nano404

4th May 2007, 18:22

They may touch you if you have bags of cash of course, but they will still expect you to fly to ATP standards.

So money doesn't talk that much? With a bag of money they MAY touch you and STILL expect you to fly to ATP standards? With a bag of money I should only have to look at the cockpit for 15 minutes.

By the way, state the meaning of 'jet' as defined by the FAA.

I don't have a PPL yet. But I was wondering which rules I would have to abide by? As I will obtain an FAA license but living in a British Overseas Territory, so...

mm_flynn

4th May 2007, 19:16

So money doesn't talk that much? With a bag of money they MAY touch you and STILL expect you to fly to ATP standards? With a bag of money I should only have to look at the cockpit for 15 minutes.
By the way, state the meaning of 'jet' as defined by the FAA.
I don't have a PPL yet. But I was wondering which rules I would have to abide by? As I will obtain an FAA license but living in a British Overseas Territory, so...
You will have to follow the rules of the state of registry of the aircraft. (i.e. FARs if it is N-Reg)

My impression of doing a type rating (which I have only had described to me by folks who have done it) is that you are required to know everything about the systems and flying environment for the aircraft. As such, a lot of the ATPL knowledge is required but focused on your particular aircraft rather than a generalised aircraft. For a jet that you use for transport (vs a JP or such like) The type rating class and test have to be based around IFR operations, high altitudes, RVSM, turbine engines, pressurisation systems, etc.

Based on some initial investigation into getting a type rating it does appear basically to be - 1 - Select aircraft you are going to operate, 2 - Select training organisation that supports your chosen aircraft and regulator, 3- Agree training using either an off the shelf or custom developed programme (which may include foundation courses), 4 - Pay the money.

As to what is a jet in FAA language, I think it is exactly what the word implies. More precisely, I believe a jet is an aircraft with its thrust delivered by a turbine generating thrust through the compressor section (or ducted fan) and the exhaust (i.e. a turbo jet or turbo fan) but not something where the turbine turns an un-ducted set of blades (i.e. a turbo prop). Ramjets and Manned Rockets appear to fall into the experimental aircraft category (which makes sense with them being experimental until Virgin Galactic gets its AOC)

Chilli Monster

4th May 2007, 19:19

Turbojet - An aircraft having a jet engine in which the energy of the jet operates a turbine which in turn operates the air compressor. (Source - FAA FAR/AIM)

British overseas dependencies either issue their own licenses or validate overseas ones. If you get an FAA licence then the you will need a Turks and Caicos validation to operate aircraft of that register. If they're anything like the Cayman CAA they validate your licence once you have the type rating, and if you require annual recurrency training, the validation only lasts a year from one training date to the next.

And yes - the type rating school will be testing you to ATP standards, no matter what licence you hold.

mm_flynn

4th May 2007, 21:04

CM,
[pedant mode on]
although we generally would agree that turbojet = jet and hence the AIM definition of turbojet answers nano404's implicit question, he actually asked what is a jet and the AIM uses jet in its definition, a tautology, hence not answering the question. [pedant mode off]

Chilli Monster

4th May 2007, 23:14

mm_flynn

My answer's correct - it's the question that was incorrectly worded ;)

(See quote 14 CFR 61 Re: requirement for type rating).

Meanwhile - back to the day (night!) job. Time to vector some more "Jets"!

nano404

5th May 2007, 02:07

Oh Ok, Thanks for definitions and responses, I'm wondering, does a person absolutely required to be trained by a Certified Flight Instructor to obtain a PPL (FAA) (Not that i was planning on doing otherwise;))

Also, I saw somewhere that if you're in the U.S. on a Visitors Visa (I think i have a B-2 as it is visitors on pleasure) you can go to school without obtaining a student's visa (M-1 for flight school I believe) If your studying for a short period of time (Less than 18hrs a week).

If this is still in effect, then I will be allowed to train at most I'd risk (Don't want to get deported for pushing the limit) 17 hours a week, and I, Aviator Extraordinaire (To be) Will be able to get my PPL training minimum time (35hrs) in two weeks and about 3 days including check-ride and written exam. Right?

mm_flynn

5th May 2007, 06:35

nano404,

Aviation is a world full of rules. Most of which actually are there for a good reason. Less time spent parsing the exact detail of how to skirt around the edges and more time spent learning why they are there and how to fly will get you to your goal.

From where you are (apparently looking at starting PPL) to Jet type rating and operating your own jet (or share) is a lot of study, work, money and a big capital investment. More important, it is a mind shift from a conceptual dream to a rigourous planning and operating methodology where you always plan for problems and their solutions so you don't have problems.

Focus on the here and now, get a proper visa for flight training, get your PPL from a proper organisation with CFIs see if you like it, build some experience, check you have $50-100k spare (+ the cost of buying/operating your chosen jet), go get IR, Multi and type ratings, have fun!

nano404

5th May 2007, 13:40

OK, Though I'm not recommended to do it the quick and dirty way :*, I guess it all makes sense, except:

check you have $50-100k spare (+ the cost of buying/operating your chosen jet)

Uhh who said anything about me paying for it:p;)

Are there any benefits of getting an ATPL/CPL first besides the afore mentioned "you will be trained like an ATP" ?

NOTE: Any details on the Kenya Airways 738 crash?

Chilli Monster

5th May 2007, 14:22

check you have $50-100k spare (+ the cost of buying/operating your chosen jet)

You wish! Add 2 more zeros and you're closer the mark ;)

Uhh who said anything about me paying for it:p;)

Are there any benefits of getting an ATPL/CPL first besides the afore mentioned "you will be trained like an ATP" ?

Ok - time out.

Come back and start asking again when you've got a multi-engined CPL/IR and about 400 hours of good quality cross country flying / instrument flying (not pi$$ing about in the local area on a nice day). That might get you in the RHS of a Corporate Jet (it did me).

You want a command type rating - get a thousand hours of the above, or 1500 hours and an ATP (which you can't hold until 1500 hours anyway).

nano404

5th May 2007, 17:17

Chilli always here to slap you into reality ;). I dont want an ATPL, though 1000 hours is do-able as I may be able to borrow aircraft for a reduced cost or free, depends though.

As for the cost of the jet, I'm a billionaire man! ( At least 'till I wake up in the morning). On a serious note though, I'll get one, whether owned or partial with a family member.

F900EX

5th May 2007, 21:17

"Ok - time out.

Come back and start asking again when you've got a multi-engined CPL/IR and about 400 hours of good quality cross country flying / instrument flying (not pi$$ing about in the local area on a nice day). That might get you in the RHS of a Corporate Jet (it did me)."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Very reasonable suggestion on the part of Chilli. To be fair you really are putting 'the cart before the horse'. I imagine you really ought to prove to yourself that you can get that PPL before any further discussion about jets. Good luck getitng it in 35 hours and 2weeks / 2days.

P.S You cannot receive any flight training for a primary (PPL) or advanced rating (IR/Multi) as a non U.S citizen without first receiving a U.S student visa and subsequently a T.S.A autorization to train at the specific shool of your choice. A U.S CFI cannot legally train you without such approvals/visa in place.

Finally, only a U.S CFI can approve the FAA 8710 application for airmen certificate.

IO540

5th May 2007, 22:04

"A U.S CFI cannot legally train you without such approvals/visa in place."

This one has been done to death here, but...

A US CFI can train outside the USA. A visa is obviously not required. TSA approval for the instructor would be if he's training for the PPL, ME or IR, not for CPL, CFI, CFII.

However, the FAA accepts all non-FAA flight training towards any FAA license/rating. So you could do all training you need (for the FAA) in the UK, say a G-reg, with a JAA instructor, and this avoids all the TSA stuff because it's nothing to do with the FAA. You just conveniently happen to do some flying which meets the FAA requirements......

Finally, there is nothing wrong with being ambitious!! GA is full of people who tell you this and that can't be done. Most of them are good at propping up the bar, and have never been beyond the local burger run. Also, JAA (EASA) is not the only jurisdiction under the sun; in fact most jets operate under one of the others.

You don't need an ATPL to fly a single pilot jet.

Chilli Monster

5th May 2007, 22:43

F900EX

6th May 2007, 01:01

IO540 "A US CFI can train outside the USA. A visa is obviously not required. TSA approval for the instructor would be if he's training for the PPL, ME or IR, not for CPL, CFI, CFII."

This may well be the case. However he does refer to training in the USA and hence my reply.

I am sure you would agree it is a rather tall order to obtain training in the U.K for an FAA licence by a non FAA instructor and to then have the 8710 signed off by an actual FAA instructor (who I imagine would not be willing to do such a thing having not provided any training).... And all within a short space of time !

Remember that even a U.K based FAA instructor must obtain TSA approval to give ANY training for the initial certificate issue. Ultimately it would be very difficult to get around the TSA requirements for a non resident/non US citizen wishing to gain an initial FAA certificate.

nano404

6th May 2007, 04:13

mm_flynn

6th May 2007, 06:26

You don't need an ATPL to fly a single pilot jet.
Officially no, and this will become more relevant when the VLJ's become available.
However, we go back to who really calls the shots here. The minimum insurance requirement for our Citations (550 & 560), in the days when they could operate single pilot, was:
Single pilot waiver
2500 hours TT
Valid ATPL

A friend of mine is in the process of arranging a delivery position for one of the smaller Cessna jets and while he is money bags and a CPL helicoptor pilot, he in the fixed wing world is going to go from zero to type rated pilot and not going to spend anything like your suggested $5 million (my 50k estimate with two more zeros) on his training. In addition, his insurers seem to have a reasonably sensible programme to get him insured.

This is not to say he won't have to fly to ATPL standard, learn most of the ATPL subject matter, spend a lot on training, have a rigorous course of additional training to satisfy his insurer - all of which is true. However, a jet type rating IS achievable by a PPL with skill, effort, and money. Buying and operating the Jet of course takes megabucks ;)

IO540

6th May 2007, 06:41

I am sure you would agree it is a rather tall order to obtain training in the U.K for an FAA licence by a non FAA instructor and to then have the 8710 signed off by an actual FAA instructor (who I imagine would not be willing to do such a thing having not provided any training).... And all within a short space of time !

OK, the way you play this particular case is you obtain the training anywhere in ICAO-land, and then you fly the last 3hrs in the 60 days before the checkride with an FAA CFI/CFII. This FAA instructor needs TSA approval if applicable.

One could just get signed off by an FAA instructor but this is most unlikely since nobody will sign you off as ready for the checkride unless they actually flew with you.

Remember that even a U.K based FAA instructor must obtain TSA approval to give ANY training for the initial certificate issue. Ultimately it would be very difficult to get around the TSA requirements for a non resident/non US citizen wishing to gain an initial FAA certificate.

Not quite true. If the training is clearly towards an ab initio PPL then I agree. If the training is ambiguous and is say a 300nm VFR dual x/c (which is a CPL requirement) then no. Most flights you can do with an instructor are ambiguous in this respect; it is the license/rating which that logbook entry is subsequently used for (perhaps years later) that matters, but nobody will question whether some flight you have in your logbook from 3 years before was done under TSA. A BFR or IPC is also TSA exempt, and you can do any kind of flying within that.

I agree with MM Flynn about the light jets. There will be ways to fly them SP without doing a full ATPL. Not everybody likes this; during a presentation in West Drayton it was claimed that the CAA will ban SP jet ops in UK airspace, and the Germans were going to ban all jet ops without an ATPL. Neither "proposal" is likely to get anywhere as it would be a blatent breach of ICAO, and anyway what about all the SP jets flying already on a CPL/IR? It is also in the insurers' interests to get people flying, but flying safely. A couple of years ago I was offered a CJ1 with reasonable insurance (I think it was a CJ1 - don't particularly keep an eye on jets) if I had 800hrs P1, an IR, and did the TR at some specified establishment.

dublinpilot

6th May 2007, 10:58

It would be, but I'm not in the UK, I don't know of any local instructors, but there is this guy I know who is planning on becoming a flight instructor, training in the USA, possible for him to be a FAA Instructor without having residency in the U.S., as that would make things different (Ability to train locally). But if he isn't able to be an FAA instructor then he would have to have an 8710 signed and whatnot. Correct?

If you put as much effort into getting the necessary Visa's and TSA clearance as you are putting into trying to find ways around getting them, you'd have them long ago :rolleyes:

LOTS of people do this EVERY WEEK, go to the USA, do their three weeks training and come back with a PPL. Why so much effort into finding a way to avoid this?

If you can really afford to operate your own private jet (even a share is going to costs lots) then you can easily affort to sort out a PPL.

dp

Chilli Monster

6th May 2007, 13:44

he in the fixed wing world is going to go from zero to type rated pilot and not going to spend anything like your suggested $5 million (my 50k estimate with two more zeros

No - you're right. I missed the "+" in your original answer (that'll teach me to answer on a small screen smartphone!). Type ratings (all sim) normally come in at about $15K but then you have to do some time on the aircraft after that. You'll probably find that being a CPL(H) the insurance company are going to put together a decent deal as they recognise that sort of flying is normally more difficult and complex.

I don't think I ever mentioned, however, that you can't fly a jet on a PPL - there's no reason why you can't and many people do. However, if nano wants someone else to pay for him to do it then the route I described is how he's going to have to do it.

F900EX

6th May 2007, 16:07

IO540 - "Not quite true. If the training is clearly towards an ab initio PPL then I agree. "

We are discussing the initial issue of a PPL here.

IO540

6th May 2007, 16:43

If anybody wants this, I have a detailed step by step guide to the TSA+Visa process - email me. Well checked out in 2006 and used by many, as far as I can tell.

The TSA process is easy (a website session, $130, plus a trip to Flight Safety at Farnborough to get fingerprints) but there are a few gotchas.

The Visa process is just a day wasted hanging around at the US Embassy, poking your finger into fingerprint readers on each desk and showing your mortgage statements to the officer who wants to be sure you won't end up on their social security.

Nowadays, the TSA and Visa people reportedly cross-check so if you need (and obtain) TSA you will also have to get a Visa, and this is regardless of whether US law actually requires the Visa.

nano404

6th May 2007, 18:06

If you put as much effort into getting the necessary Visa's and TSA clearance as you are putting into trying to find ways around getting them, you'd have them long ago

It's not the issue of getting around it, I plan on going there but it's just there can be benefits (closer to home,meaning no need to pay for flights, maybe able to borrow aircraft for free etc.) But regardless I plan on going to the U.S. , Florida, since it's closer, and I may be able to stay with some relatives.

I know that Jet aircraft are expensive, to buy and to operate but that's not the whole motive for getting my PPL so all my questions are being asked as if I own one already.

Also, for the visa, if it would be paid via financing, what do you show for the financial statements?

My airstrip is beginning to look easier as the posts go by. (Still Don't Want To Hear It, Part Of My Dream)

F900EX

6th May 2007, 18:44

"Also, for the visa, if it would be paid via financing, what do you show for the financial statements?"

Not sure what you mean here.. Are you are talking about financing the cost of your training ? If so then the money should be in your bank account from whatever finance source you use prior to going for your visa. The officer will need to see that you have finds to cover your stay i the USA for the duration of your training. Maybe I am not understanding your question correctly as I imagine it is unlikely you would need to finance the cost of your PPL based on your previous posts.

IO540

6th May 2007, 19:41

The visa officer will want to see a bank statement showing a good few thousand quid, and some evidence of ties to the UK e.g. a mortgage statement.

I didn't have a mortgage statement on my house (no mortgage) but had one on my ex wife's house (because I pay her mortgage) and the officer questioned why the address etc was different to mine. Fortunately the explanation was accepted.

Bring the lot, credit card statements, etc.

dublinpilot

6th May 2007, 19:54

I plan on going there but it's just there can be benefits (closer to home,meaning no need to pay for flights, maybe able to borrow aircraft for free etc.)

The cost of your entire PPL training is likely to be less than the cost of operating a biz-jet for two hours. Why so much effort into saving this?

Also, for the visa, if it would be paid via financing, what do you show for the financial statements?

As for the cost of the jet, I'm a billionaire man! ( At least 'till I wake up in the morning). On a serious note though, I'll get one, whether owned or partial with a family member.

Something doesn't add up here. If you can buy even a share in a Jet, why are you having to finance the trivial cost of a visa, and why trying so hard to avoid the relatively trival cost of a PPL?

dp

nano404

6th May 2007, 21:50

F900EX

Sorry, I misread what IO540 posed earlier.

Something doesn't add up here. If you can buy even a share in a Jet, why are you having to finance the trivial cost of a visa, and why trying so hard to avoid the relatively trival cost of a PPL?

Most of the questions about avoiding going through the U.S. just plain curiosity. I WILL go to the U.S. to train. Forget about the jet part, another dream for another decade, I'm done my questionning concerning jets. Didn't mention my age did I? Maybe that should say under wraps :p. Cost of PPL is not a problem, may go up to CPL, depends on how life turns. Too young for my PPL, i'll have it Summer 2008.

TheGorrilla

7th May 2007, 10:36

Ever heard of the saying "learn to walk before you run"?

IO540

7th May 2007, 11:02

Ever heard of the saying "learn to walk before you run"?

a favourite of instructors, most of whom have never been past the crease in their chart.

Don't knock somebody who wants to learn to fly for a reason - just because nearly all PPL students don't doesn't make this a bad thing. This man is likely to be hanging in there long after the other 99% have packed it up.

SkyHawk-N

7th May 2007, 13:56

a favourite of instructors, most of whom have never been past the crease in their chart.

Interesting. All of the instructors I have known are genuinely experienced and knowledgable (and I can smell BS a mile off as I work with it every day!), I suppose I must just be a lucky one.

nano404

7th May 2007, 15:55

Ever heard of the saying "learn to walk before you run"?

Better prepare for the run before you start the journey.

As in a vacation, theres three parts, getting to the destination, staying there and returning home. Of course you have to get there before you leave there, but you don't plan your arrival and not plan your stay and departure. Nor do you plan your arrival and stay, then plan your departure sometime after you arrive. Planning all ahead allows possible bumps and difficulties in your journey to be acknowledged and prepared for. If you arrive without booking a hotel, and find out they're all booked, rather find that out at home than in a foreign land. And if you made a budget for the trip, planned on renting a compact car when you arrived but find them rented out, then you would have to go over your budget for a larger car. Could've been avoided by planning, go to a different car rental company, change your budget at home etc. Planning saves money and time.