Confused?

[Right Way Up]

Could someone at London ATCC please answer this query. We were departing from one of the "London" airports, and on handover at 1500' we got a clearance "passing 4000' turn right heading x degrees, climb FL70." Unfortunately the transmission was a little distorted and to be quite frank I was a little confused, and my brain registered an altitude and flight level in the same transmission so I queried it. This all happened as we were trying to accelerate and retract flaps. Is this normal practice? To me there are possible reasons for my confusion:
1) I am a dimwit - not an unreasonable assumption!
2) The controller made a slip - unlikely, but well who hasn't.
3) The phraseology is allowed, but is a potential flight safety issue.
The reason I bring it up is that if 3) is true then it is time to change it.
I do not want to give away details of whereabouts/freqs because I have the highest regard for UK ATC.

[AlanM]

Answer 1!!

Seriously, not a slip really. Arguably a little confusing to a foreign crew. However, I think you will find that the 4000ft part is a restriction, before which you can not be taken off the SID (noise). As the transition Altitude is 6000ft, it makes sense to me.

Seems like the controller was, as is often the case, just trying to keep you climbing and give you a direct routing.

Stating the freq/aiport is not a sin, and neither will you be flamed for it. You are more likely to have an exact answer if you gice us the info!

Maybe it is something that, from a Human Factors pint of view should be discouraged if proving confusing. However, it is heard a lot and I don't think causes level busts or losses of separation.

[Right Way Up]

Thanks AlanM for the answer. I am also sure no2 is not applicable.
I can understand the fact it is trying to help us to get a continuous climb, and the phraseology in most circumstances would not be too taxing, but I feel during a high workload situation i.e early climb and acceleration, there is potential for an incident, especially when altitudes and flight levels are mentioned in the same clearance. I think I might CHIRP it.

[Del Prado]

one possible solution is to wait till you're ready to receive and action a clearance before checking in?

some departures check in straight off the deck, others wait till they're level at six till making a first call to London.

[AlanM]

CHIRPing is OK at it goes to wide audience - but it could be a good one for the human factors/best practice boys and girls at West Drayton as it seems unit specific (?)

Del Prado's idea is a good one - change the freq then call in when you are are happy to take instructions (Don't wait til you get to DVR though........!!) If you are on freq you can at least be called.

[Right Way Up]

AlanM & Del Prado,
Thanks again for the replies. I think in this case I got a little caught on the hop, as the changeover was quite early (normally off 08R you have already started accelerating before you get switched). Also normally the clearance on first contact is fairly short. I will be better prepared next time.

[wordstwice]

Although there is nothing wrong with the clearance you received I do think you have a point.

I wouldnt go as far to say that the clearance is unsafe and if it was too much information you were correct in asking for confirmation however, as a controller, I wouldnt usually give such a clearance. I would rather, depending on workload, wait until I observe you passing 4,000 and then give you the heading to make sure there was no mistake.

I don't advocate my way being the best but I used to fly commercially and do remember the high workload during the initial climbout and giving too many numbers in that initial departure instruction could cause mistakes. Whenever I am training a new controller I INSIST they do it that way initially......too many times the pilot will come back with questions the other way.

We are taught, as controllers, to combine transmissions as much as safely possible without giving too many numbers in each transmission. The clearance you received definately falls into what is considered acceptable by ATC but like I said..........may not be prudent during that time of flight.

[gnfc]

I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you were taking off from heathrow on a midhurst departure, which after take off climbs to 6000ft but the SID track bends you back in towards the Ockham holding stack. So very often, (9 times out of 10) a controller puts the Aircraft on a heading after 4000ft (earliest possible due noise) to keep them away from the stack. If you call up before passing 4000ft expect an "after passing" instruction for this heading. In the same transmission you can give a climb instruction as you have ensured that the aircraft will not climb at the stack.(not much fun for anyone involved).

you were definitely right to query it though. A moody voice from the controller at having to repeat himself is nothing compared to what would be said if you didnt take the turn and climbed at the stack by mistake!!! be safe out there guys!!

[Roffa]

If you call up before passing 4000ft expect an "after passing" instruction for this heading. In the same transmission you can give a climb instruction as you have ensured that the aircraft will not climb at the stack.(not much fun for anyone involved).

No you haven't, you've climbed it through the stack before you've seen it take the turn away from the stack.

Not a particularly good practice.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Often get a similar instruction departing LPL and talking to Manchester ATC on a DESIG SID to the North. Again usually during flap retraction and with the aircraft already in a low level turn to follow the initial SID routing. I think it's certainly an opportunity for a mistake to be made - more often than not I find as a crew we prioritise the climb instruction and select that in the alt. window immediately and if necessary ask again for the heading. Whether this is a good thing I'm not sure as on a number of occasions we have been slow to take up the radar heading - clearly the heading is given to maintain seperation from the MAN inbound/outbound traffic.

[Ppdude]

This is being done at CC every day, all day for the past god knows how many years and 99% of crews dont seem to have a problem with it.

We simply do not have the time to wait until after you have passed 4000ft to give you a climb. By this time it will be too late, and you will be in confliction with inbound downwind traffic.

All we need is some crews to come and sit on sector and all be become clear

[GundeSvan]

I'm just curious...

Would it sound better if the clearance would be;

"XXX001, zzz departure, radarcontact, continue climb FL70, when passing 4000 feet turn right heading 000"

Seriously, If you say it that way and in that order, I find it very hard to not understand and follow...

( my english isn't the best)

GS

[begbie]

It is considered acceptable, but I think bad practice.. Why not "xxx Squawk Ident, on passing 4000' fly heading zzz". Then "xxx climb FL...".
Far easier for crew to take in this in two calls, and less likely for them to query the clearance. There is no way a controller does not have time for this, if they have control of the RT..

[begbie]

And I second Roffa's comments..

[anotherthing]

gnfc

I third roffas(!) coments... what you are describing is a fail dangerous way of controlling and will catch you out one day. Hopefully it will be either during your training, or if valid, during an LCE check and not something more sinister.

Also, you assume wrong that its a Heathrow departure...... unless they have a 08R!

[duece19]

Ppdude...

And all we need is a few controllers to come and watch how busy it can be at early stages of climb out!!! :ugh:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

"This is being done at CC every day, all day for the past god knows how many years and 99% of crews dont seem to have a problem with it"

Ppdude

How do you know 99% of us don't have a problem with it? Because no-one moans on frequency? Ok I might be part of the 1% - but I doubt it. It may be a long-standing and often used instruction but it is also the one I notice being screwed up by crews on a regular basis. You say you don't have time at CC to do otherwise and we appreciate your workload is high, but so is ours during that phase of flight.

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

I would not be surprised if the answer from CHIRP is "don't check in on a new frequency until you are ready to accept an instruction". There really is no rush to check in with the radar controller in the UK. I often wonder what pilots are trying to achieve by telling the tower controller they are airborne, ie attempting to prompt a frequency change as the wheels come up.

SIDs in the UK are all designed to provide separation from other traffic. If you just fly the SID and check in once you've finished cleaning up everything will be fine. It doesn't matter if you are sitting on the frequency for a bit without having said anything - separation is assured.

G W-H

[Talla Radar]

"SIDs in the UK are all designed to provide separation from other traffic. If you just fly the SID and check in once you've finished cleaning up everything will be fine. It doesn't matter if you are sitting on the frequency for a bit without having said anything - separation is assured."
This is not strictly true in the case of the Scottish TMA. Edinburgh Jet departures to DCS/TRN are required to be FL100 or above abeam CUMBO, although the SIDs themselves only go to 6000'. These SIDs "jump" the Glasgow arrivals via LANAK, so it is very important that they get continous climb.
So whilst I agree that changing frequency and waiting for a timely moment in the clean up schedule before checking in is good practice, please do not leave it too long!

[ComJam]

Talla

That's all very well, but if you're cleared for a SID without a further flight level clearance being issued you level at the max altitude or FL that's indicated on the procedure, in this case 6000'. Surely if you do that separation will be guaranteed.........if it isn't, there's something wrong with the procedure, something that doesn't take any kind of radio fail into account...

[Talla Radar]

Conjam, this is a popular misconception about SIDs. The complexity of our airspace, particularly in TMA environments, is such that separation will not be guaranteed by relying on SIDs alone. SIDs are designed to get aircraft airborne in a standard way, without the need for individual clearances (and all that this implies). So although separation on a SID is initially assured, intervention after departure is often required to maintain it.

We are always aware of the possibility of radio failure and in these circumstances will co-ordinate with other sectors and units to keep traffic separated.

[ComJam]

Exactly what i was getting at, if you level at the SID's max level seperation will be assured, it might mean you guys need to co-ordinate more, but it should be safe.

[Talla Radar]

Yes ComJam, but we do not have the capacity to co-ordinate against every single departure that does not check in before levelling off.
The system capacities (Target Sector Flows) are designed to tolerate unforseen circumstances, but clearly are not designed to tolerate every departure not checking in!


As a bit of "cockpit groupie" I am well aware of the high workloads immediately after departure, so by all means delay the initial call until a convenient moment in the clean up-schedule, just don't leave it too long!

[Not Long Now]

Comjam, as an example, if you level at the SIDs final level on a heathrow dover departure, you will meet a gatwick dover departure at it's final level just past Detling. Similarly, SAM LL and KK's meet, as do LL CPTs and KK Kenets and so on for nearly all same direction sids from adjacent airfields.. Also, not all sids are seperated from the final approach of the airport they leave from, so although it might work in theory, the London TMA doesn't quite fit that theory.

[ComJam]

Guys, that's fine and all perfectly well understood. I was merely trying to point out that if, for whatever reason, we were to be unable to check-in on the departure frequency quickly enough to be issued a higher level, it will not directly bring us into conflict with something else........because you will do your job and co-ordinate it. I wasn't for a moment suggesting that the system should be designed to cope with no-one checking in.

[Not Long Now]

Generally, you should be fine for a while at least. Worst case in the London TMA I can think of would be a DVR dep off 26L at KK, which if you just fly it loses separation against the approach after about (please don't jump down my neck I said about) 14 track miles depending how accurately you fly it, and if of course there's actually anything on the approach.